Inkbunny

did you read more into the article and find the (ugh) Genderbread Person
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/03/the-gender...

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ PlatinumPen

Yeah, I've seen that too XP. It's detestible.

NyotaMwuaji

6 years, 8 months ago

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im not sure which side of the argument you are supporting here....

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Truth.

NyotaMwuaji

6 years, 8 months ago

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Can you be more specific? I'm not trying to start anything, just looking for clarity

KarrisBat

6 years, 8 months ago

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he believes transgender people are mentally ill. that's the side he is on.

KarrisBat

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ KarrisBat

i am not on that side to be clear

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ KarrisBat

They are mentally ill.
Doesn't make them less of a person.
People need to stop thinking that mentally ill means you're saying someone is disabled or stupid or something.
Being mentally ill doesn't say anything about someone's worth one way or another.

Gone374

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm mentally ill. It's not something to be ashamed of, and its kinda insulting to see the word bring treated as an insult, much in the same way it's annoying To see gay being used as an insult.

LeonWolf

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm gay and I use gay and fag to insult my straight and gay friends all the time. It's fun.

Gone374

6 years, 8 months ago

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Same here, but we're both used to it, and it's more a matter of why it's insulting rather than if it's insulting.

LeonWolf

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

I know that it's derived from the word faggot which means bundle of sticks.
Which were used to burn witches..because fags weren't good enough to burn individually.
So they were used as the fuel.
Hence a flaming faggot.

It's amazing to see their smiles drop when I tell them that.

Gone374

6 years, 8 months ago

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Hm, not quite sure if I wanted to know that, but interesting nonetheless.

LeonWolf

6 years, 8 months ago

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But all in all. I used to think that people saying gay way quite annoying.
I still kinda have that with Fag. Because of the meaning behind it.

But nowadays..
It doesn't do me much anymore. Kinda grew a spine against it.
I've rewired the word fag to extremely feminine guy that's hungry for cock.
So when people would yell fag at me (which has happened many times) I imagine them wanting me to suck them off.
Gay to me can be something lame. Or just same gender love.

Gone374

6 years, 8 months ago

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I had a kid on Trove the other day that kept screaming at me to go suck a dick and stuff and I just said "Y'know, you can't threaten a gay guy's sexuality, right? We're kinda immune."
He shut up after that. But either way, I kinda got off track. I mean, people acting like being mentally ill is this horrible horrible insult is like, "Um, I'm mentally ill as well. Should I feel like I'm not a real person too, or should I start saying that Depression and anxiety are just part of my personality anytime someone says they're illnesses?"

LeonWolf

6 years, 8 months ago

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Oh that's true.
When I was younger I thought that when you have an mental illness you'd be insane..not being able to think rational. A looney..crazy.

But I learned along the way that a mental illness can be all kinds of things like depression, epilepsi and such..not just hysteria and psychosis.
And it's that what people often think about when they hear the word mental illness.

The same for the word gay..
People often immediately jump to the conclusion that the word only means two men that love each other.
They don't also see that two women can also engage in a gay relation with each other.

Am I explaining for nothing..I presume you already know this..
I just like to type right now..

Also..Trove. Cool. I have a Dracolyte and a Lunar Lancer.

Gone374

6 years, 8 months ago

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My brothers a Dracolite. I prefer tomb raider. But yeah, like, it's like if I had epilepsy and someone else was next to me screaming and raving because someone thought they were epileptic.

Zagroseckt

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ KarrisBat

Thats not what i saw up there he is bringing out the fact that yes having this problem is mintely stressfull so is being gay or straight or bi or FURRY!

he's just saying how stupid it is to shove it down childrens throughts before they even get there own identity formed.

wich i kinda agree with. hitting developing minds with this to early can confuse folks.

it shouldn't be hidden from them but not shoved down there throught eather.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm on the side of where the evidence is. It is reality that basically everybody identifies as the gender they were born with, it has always been that way and always will, regardless of culture or geographical location there is always a distinct difference between men and women. The fact that there are people who feel they were born the wrong gender, or that there are people who don't believe they can be defined by the binary of sex, doesn't change the reality one iota.

NyotaMwuaji

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

ah so facts and logic and biology. I am on that side as well. you cant alter your chromosomes

also Batty, I'm just glad you didn't use the word "phobic" in your post. too many people abusing that word.

unsent

6 years, 8 months ago

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That'd be a great stance if not the fact that human sex is not based on chromosomes. Its hormonal. You pump testosterone into an XX human during fetal development, they will develop into a completely functional male body, and the opposite is just as true. Try again buddy.

NyotaMwuaji

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ unsent

that doesn't matter. chromosomes tell all. adding something via a syringe isn't nature. its called genetic manipulation. there is a difference.

Bitcoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Something that bothers me with the 'more than 2 genders' thing is, for a large part I feel like it must be awful for trans people. There's this insistence on adding stuff like the 80 genders on Facebook or whatever, and really... what are ANY of those "genders" if not expounding on what "type of" Male, Female, or In-Between/Null you are? Like you can't just be a male if you were born a female, according to their list. According to all this Very Helpful Social Activism the SJWs have accomplished, you now get the choice between "FTM", "trans male", "transgender man", "transgender male", "transexual man", "transexual male", "trans person" or "female to male". All their hard work comes to fruition in trans people now having to display their trans-ness to everyone, and being led to feel like they can never really truly BE the gender they spent so much time and tears making the change to. If there are any genders on the Big Facebook List they truly must feel they can't use, it's the vanilla male and female they've always wanted to apply.

IMO, it's rather insulting. Especially viewed through an SJW lens where everything is microaggressions and such nonsense, this is EASILY enough to trigger their oppression radar, if only it came from someone who's not pretending to be an activist working for positive social change on their behalf.

Edit: And yeah, the whole concept of gender... can we PLEASE stop adding sexuality, romantic interest, and all this other junk to it? I got a simple question that answers what gender you are, and we can all use it: do you feel like a male? Or do you feel like a female? Don't feel strongly for either? Flip a coin, it really doesn't matter. Or in an extreme case, go neutral. I'll use whichever of the three pronoun sets you want, but I'd sooner choke myself to death with a puppy than let everyone assign themselves a totally new and unique pronoun that I have to learn for every individual or every possible combo of Gender Unicorn Bullshit. No, you already have a unique identifier that's 100% yours to identify with and we call that YOUR NAME.

AlexReynard

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Bitcoon

Veryt he agreement. In my own experieince, the trans people I have met and seen usually just want to pass as a normal, ordinary member of the opposite sex. It's when people make a huge show of, "Look how TRANS I am!!" that I get skeptical.

Especially if their body language and speech patterns are totally that of their biological sex, and all they've done to 'transition' is dress up like a caricature of the other gender. >.>

Ohgun312

6 years, 8 months ago

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Now that's what I call using Logic and Common Sense. Thanks so much for making that upload, even if it will piss off any salt-filled Social Justice Warriors who believe otherwise.

Cuddleboy19

6 years, 8 months ago

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Thanks, Correct Gender Unicorn!

SuperBH

6 years, 8 months ago

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Ehhhhhh.....saying Transgender people are ill probably isn't the best term, since it's like having a mental disorder. More of a problem with the brain itself rather than an infection. I don't consider my Epilepsy to be an illness, since it's not contagious or infectious, it's just the wiring is slightly wrong. Disorder describes that perfectly, and doesn't make people fear me as if I might be some kind of 'mentally ill' knife wielding maniac.

CuriousFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ SuperBH

There is no endorsement for harrasement or discrimination in this pic. Just pointing out you can't pic which bits your born with and pretending yuo don't have a penis when you have one is silly at best. If it becomes an obsession that promotes elective surgery then it's a mental disorder in my opinion.

Make belive is fine until it damages someone.

Teko

6 years, 8 months ago

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Being transgender is just "make believe"?

You're joking, yes?

CuriousFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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I can see it as a demeaning use of terms, apologies for that.

Biology still is a dictating force, despite wanting to be something other then we're born with we are hard wired by our biology to a degree.

We can't change our genes, but adjusting hormonal levels does dramaticly effect brain function. We know so little about how our brains react to medication that it is ill advised to atempt without a medical need.

Doing such treatments should not be done on a whim.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ SuperBH

Being ill is not a negative against the person. Epilepsy is an illness because its bloody difficult to live with and isn't a normal part of human health. Same with my severe depression, I wouldn't wish the fucker on anybody. Saying someone has an illness is not a judgement against them, its a call to recognize they have problems they're dealing with.

Kosmo

6 years, 8 months ago

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Bingo, just because it's an illness doesn't mean it has negative connotations

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ SuperBH

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness that needs treatment. Sometimes physically transitioning treats it. Sometimes dressing as the opposite sex treats it. Regardless it is a very real very awful condition that no one should have to go through without assistance. That being said it is also a staggeringly RARE disease.

Kosmo

6 years, 8 months ago

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Well good job butthole you've just driven one of my favourite artists from the site, congration, you done it

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Kosmo

If someone has left IB because I drew a cartoon, they're pathetic. Whine to them, not me. Anyone can just block me and ignore my drawings if they hate them. Also there is some seriously graphic, horrific content on this site but they left because I parodied left wing propaganda? Get a fucking grip and kiss my ass.

EstebanG

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

edit--post change

Aksel

6 years, 8 months ago

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It's unfortunate. He had some great stories. I wish Americans would just move on to the next cause already.

Aksel

6 years, 8 months ago

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UPDATE: Take a look at his journal.

I'll give him credit for one thing: I've never been blocked before, let alone by one of my favorite writers. What's more unsettling is in his world, I'm the asshole.

climon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Aksel

He also turned off replys oh well.....

Zagroseckt

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Aksel

Clearly he wanted a site more like FA so let him go.

climon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Love it! You get 50+ points for this! You are 100% entitled to your opinion.

Kosmo

6 years, 8 months ago

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Bud, for the record, I wouldn't leave for a fuckin' cartoon I honestly think it's a huge overreaction, I just don't see what you seek to gain from all of this in the first place, it's such a polarizing issue that anyone that already agrees with you will agree completely, and anyone who doesn't has 0 chance of changing their minds

Kosmo

6 years, 8 months ago

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yeah looking over this whole sitch again when it's not 2am Karris overreacted hugely, I can honestly agree with you that those actions are hilariously pathetic, like I said if I left IB every time I was offended I'd have left the first day I was here.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Kosmo

There is nothing hateful or bigoted about this image. Your batty friend is gonna have a real real hard time with life if THIS was their breaking point.

Kosmo

6 years, 8 months ago

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yeah looking over it again when I'm not sleep depraved this was a fucking ridiculous overreaction on karris' part, if I left IB every time I saw something slightly offensive I'd have left like, day 1 or something.

EstebanG

6 years, 8 months ago

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What annoys me about the whole transgender thing is the recurring phrase: "If I wake up one morning and decide I want to be a woman, I can do whatever I want."  This statement betrays the sheer idiocy of the speaker, inasmuch as one does not "wake up one morning" and "decide" anything.  Transgenderism is a diagnosis--much like addiction, depression, et al., and follows a lengthy and intricate battery of physical (neurological, endocrine, etc.) testing followed by a regimen of psychological evaluation explicitly to weed out the "wake up one morning" butt-munches.

Then you have the mental midgets in North Carolina and other places, sounding the alarm on public bathrooms.  Every time this question comes up, they always reflexively go back to the same cliché:  “I don’t want some guy in my daughter’s bathroom.”  They have no other complaint, it seems.  The problem with the pervert/daughter construct is that it doesn’t pass the “one scream” test.  A toilet is a closed space with only one entrance and exit.  Such a violator is trapped, and a screaming child triggers a primitive response which transcends race, religion, nationality and sexuality; which will bring ALL manner of people to the rescue.  If such a violator were dumb enough to engage that behavior—especially in the heavily-armed South—it would be the final decision of his life.

Nor does it address the common sense construct that a suitably motivated violator isn’t hindered by a label on a door--nor by wearing a priest’s collar, as has been well documented for some centuries.

But notice that the paranoia is only and ever misandrist: for instance, equally (if not more) likely is the opportunist woman entering a men’s room, screaming rape (because there are no cameras) and ruining a man’s life merely to milk the social and financial advantages of being a false victim (see: Rolling Stone’s “A Rape On Campus”, 2014, et. al.).  In the opportunist construct, not only is it more likely based on sheer numbers (women are 51% of the population while transgender are less than 1%), but there are few real consequences for malicious accusations, even after they’re proven false.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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My argument AGAINST trans bathroom rights, are that bathrooms are divided by SEX, not gender. If you need proof that genitals are their primary reason for separation, id like to refer you to the existence of the urinal.

EstebanG

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	Stratus wrote:
	If you need proof that genitals are their primary reason for separation, id like to refer you to the existence of the urinal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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Conglaturation!
You have invoked strawman!
Would you like to
1) Provide evidence that claim is a strawman
2) Fall victim to the fallacy fallacy

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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"Every time this question comes up, they always reflexively go back to the same cliché: “I don’t want some guy in my daughter’s bathroom.” They have no other complaint, it seems. "
-You
I don't think you know what a strawman is bruh.

Reyos

6 years, 8 months ago

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No it's not a strawman argument. The issue is we use the same terms to refer to gender as we do to sex, when they are different. In fact there are three, biological sex, physical sex and gender identity. Biological sex is determined by chromosomes, if you're born XX you're biologically female, if you're born XY you are biologically male. Physical sex is determined by the way your body is built, primarily the sex organs, we.ll get back to this one. Gender identity is a social construct that honestly does no real good, other than making some things easier, particularly now when there is so much push for everyone to be able to have a personal gender identity, or change it on a whim, which is a disservice to people who are actually suffering from gender dysphoria, which IS a mental illness, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Back to physical sex, bathrooms are designed with physical sex in mind, they are designed to allow people who are physically male to urinate standing up, something their different body structure makes possible, or at least much, much easier, than it does for those that are physically female.

The reason you believe this is a strawman is because it doesn't address your argument, it instead addresses the premise your argument is built on. Your argument is moot if bathrooms are not divided by gender but by sex, and this argument goes to the fact that yes, bathrooms have different equipment for each sex, because they were designed to be used by members of that sex.

EstebanG

6 years, 8 months ago

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^ Always fun to see how many people shoehorn their cliches into things, irrespective of what I've written.
My post is ridiculing the uninformed stupidity of North Carolina rednecks.

greenmont

6 years, 8 months ago

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97% of all people are heterosexual, stop abusing children with lies.
(this estimate from early 2000s, the "real" number has gone up since homo- and bi-sexuality gained mainstream acceptance)

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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Jeez i was about to say I thought we were higher than THAT :P

greenmont

6 years, 8 months ago

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we are (and were) but 3% was an accepted stat for a while, and the same argument "but there's so few" used to dismantle our rights
also your view may be skewed by being a furry :P

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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My view is skewed by all the dicks i sucked in highschool far more than that XD

EstebanG

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	Stratus wrote:
	My view is skewed by all the dicks i sucked in highschool far more than that XD

Go on...

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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Damn you. Got a headstart on me, didn't get much until college :/

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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Rights such as...?

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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My favorite one from back in the day was not trying to treat or cure AIDS because "only faggots get it"

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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Fairly sure that it was because AIDS was a disease that fucked everyone that got it up, and that no one wanted to get t. My dad, for instance, was the only person who remained friends with a guy from his work that got AIDS, and no one questioned his sexuality. The only real place you're getting that from is the blood donation ban, because gay people tend to be more promiscuous, therefore there will tend to be a higher rate of stds.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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I have enough living relatives to tell you that what i said was at one point a very accepted position too though. No one cared when a gay dude got an STD because they were "immoral"

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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Promiscuity itself was immoral, rock was immoral, and you're trying to tell me everyone and their mother felt superior morally to everyone else? Please. Also don't tell me that it was only homos that were promiscuous, anyone that was promiscuous was looked at that way.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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I can't really argue this too well since most gay rights activism... or more so the activism that actually was justifiable... went down before my time (was born in 1994) so by the time I was old enough to be aware of current events we had moved onto other things.

Reyos

6 years, 8 months ago

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And the reason for that, back in the day, was condoms. Condoms were used pretty exclusively to prevent pregnancy at that time, not to prevent diseases we hadn't identified or fully understood yet. Among the straight population, for the most part, people would have only one partner they didn't use a condom with, if any, their significant other. Gay men couldn't get pregnant so they never used them, there was no need to pay money and add a barrier to the intimacy, as a result these diseases unfortunately spread through gay men much easier.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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You're missing the point. Teaching EVERYBODY that gender is a spectrum (it isnt even for trans people) is false. Teaching everybody that trans is normal when it only applies to less than one percent of the population is nonsense. Almost everybody identifies and expresses their gender in accordance with their biological sex, END OF STORY. So you don't then go and teach little children that gender is something that can just up and change because for over 99% of them IT DOESN'T. It's not about trans rights it's about keeping this nonsense out of kids classrooms. Trans people need support, counselling, support etc but teaching kids shit that will never apply to them as if it's the actual norm is wrong, harmful and confusing. Just look at that fucking gender unicorn I linked, it's confusing even for me to interpret never mind someone who's bloody 8. For what? So some SJW students can jerk off about virtue while kids are indoctrinated into their political faith? Hell no, I oppose that tooth and nail.

greenmont

6 years, 8 months ago

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*sigh* okay.

First: You're saying gender, for sure, isn't a spectrum. Can you define what you're talking about when you say "gender" here since it seems like you do acknowledge it's different from biological sex?

Second: If you are earnestly worried about people being confused about their gender and transitioning when they "don't need to" I would think that loosening the rigidity of gender roles would be a SOLUTION to that, not a COMPLICATION. Being told "boys don't like" a thing you like, or "boys dont act like" how you act, when you are very young, is far more likely to convince you that you're not a boy.

But, I suppose that depends on how you believe "gender" is defined so in order to talk about it at all we have to agree on that.

Zagroseckt

6 years, 8 months ago

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what about zoophiles?

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	greenmont wrote:
	97% of all people are heterosexual, stop abusing children with lies. (this estimate from early 2000s, the "real" number has gone up since homo- and bi-sexuality gained mainstream acceptance)

So... did roarey advocate teaching kids transgender people don't exist, or that being transgender is wrong or something and I missed it?

greenmont

6 years, 8 months ago

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I could be interpreting things wrong, but it seems that he's arguing that, yes.

He said he is worried giving kids that information would increase their confusion and lead to suicide, or trying to transition early and being sterilized. This has to be referring to information including "on binary" trans people (and not exclusively to non-binary people) because non-binary people don't often transition at all.

Did -I- miss something?

greenmont

6 years, 8 months ago

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Just to avoid the pedantry:
He's not arguing for "teaching them they don't exist" I suppose, but rather, "NOT teaching them that they DO exist".

There's mechanically little difference. You're denying information.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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No, he is against them teaching that this applies to anyone and everyone.
Teaching all kids that gender is unrelated to sex, when in most cases to most people, yes, they are.
It's why he pointed to the existence of "gender neutral" schools where they refuse to acknowledge genders of students and treat them all as "nonbinary."
There's a difference between saying "Some people might be like this" and "You and everyone is like this."
it is also too young of an age for them to even comprehend this fully, so that adds to it.

Reyos

6 years, 8 months ago

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Not at all, Roarey, from my understanding and reading here, is saying that actual transgender people do exist, but they are A) a much smaller group than SJWs want to be believed, B) In need of help and support because they are mentally ill, and if the treatment is to transition so be it. And C) Not done any service by teaching gender as a spectrum, with 7.5 billion of places you can fall between Male and Female, instead of the binary concept it has always been until recently.

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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This also seems to be the same percentage of transgendered people that want the 420 octillion gender crowd to shut up.

Khzhak

6 years, 8 months ago

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You're right about there being two genders.

You may even be right about that percentage.

But 99.8% still leaves 0.2%.  That's still six million people in the US.  120,000,000 (one hundred twenty million) globally.  At least.  I used conservative figures, like 300 million US citizens, and six billion people in the world.  For every thousand, there are two more people.

The moment someone starts taking hormones, they're legally the other gender.  And maybe it is a mental illness.  We have ways of fixing things.  Like giving them the body they feel comfortable in.  If they would rather have that than the possibility of having children, let them.  With the overpopulation of the world, maybe it's doing some good at reducing overpopulation.

I'm a cis male, and I see the struggles the gender dysphoric have, and I fully support whatever decisions they might make about their own body.  If that makes them happy, let them be happy.

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-p...
Apparently wrong about transgenders, much smaller amount of the population. There are more furries than transgendered people, with a larger population base no less. And gender is the mental projection of sex, which does not change until the parts do. I agree with you on the latter points, though just because what people do with themselves is their own business. Thing is this isn't about that. This is about leftist propaganda towards kids, and transtrenders do exist, and there are people and kids that can be easily influenced by such things.

Khzhak

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm guessing transtrenders was not a typographical error.

If they don't do the research, and impulsively just dive in the deep end, then I'm glad I have one of this shirt.

Full URL is http://www.badideatshirts.com/Im-Not-Saying-Lets-Go-Ki...

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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Less people not doing the research more abusing a system, i.e. Riley Dennis.
Also I too am a fan of natural selection.

LeonWolf

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

I love that shirt! The world is really overpopulated, isn't it?

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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So? Teaching everybody that what applies to a minority applies to everybody is still false. Teaching kids that people who are different exist is great, teaching them that all gender is fluid and socially constructed when for over 99% of them it ISN'T, is teaching falsehoods. It's indoctrination of the young into a cult of misinformation, backed by post-modern marxist shite.

Khzhak

6 years, 8 months ago

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I agree with all of that in the message you replied to. In case you missed it. Unless I misread what I'm replying to, then that's bad on me.

weinmouse

6 years, 8 months ago

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I live in very homophobic country - Russia (IB is blocked in my country) and I know MtF and many nonconformist-people that more clever than "healthy" people like aggressive Christians and Muslims which want impose their old shit order for a government policy. In Russia LGBTIA-people can be killed or maimed just for that they're not hetero. And I find it terrible.
You can "take care of children" but it's big lie. Sorry for my poor English but I can't be silent living in very homophobic
country and seeing when clever foreing people said that transpeople and ILL. WHAT?!??!?

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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I mean what you say is true of any dictatorship. Mostly because of the non-conforming part. Best wishes.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Teaching children about different people is fine, but if society were to teach kids that being gay is the norm, that would be false. There's nothing wrong about being in a minority, the harm to gays is kids being taught that gay people are immoral and disgusting. You don't have to say "everybody is gay" like these assholes say "all gender is fluid".

weinmouse

6 years, 8 months ago

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Being gay or hetero isn't a choice - so be gay is ok.

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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No one is saying otherwise? You may have noticed all the gay porn Roarey has made.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm gay.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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I don't think you understand the English language well enough to understand what he was saying.
I don't mean that as an insult either, I mean I literally don't think you understood. Roareyraccoon is gay. And this very much isn't against transexuals as people whatsoever.

whitepawrolls

6 years, 8 months ago

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So whats next? You go after the gays for being "ill"? Maby next its the people that dye their hair since its not "natural". This is the biggest load of BS I have ever read.

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	RoareyRaccoon wrote:
	Teaching children about different people is fine, but if society were to teach kids that being gay is the norm, that would be false. There's nothing wrong about being in a minority, the harm to gays is kids being taught that gay people are immoral and disgusting. You don't have to say "everybody is gay" like these assholes say "all gender is fluid".

What is reading, whitepaw?

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Try having a fucking argument instead of just smearing me.

whitepawrolls

6 years, 8 months ago

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Its pointless to argue with someone who thinks their opinion is the "correct" one trying to spread hate on a minority just because you think they are "ill".

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Where do I say that being ill means I hate you? I'M a disabled person, I don't hate people who are ill. Idiot.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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He doesn't hate them. In fact he said we need to learn how to have more compassion and understanding for them because they are ill.
And ill is not an insult to a person.
Unless you commonly shit on people for being ill.
"Haha what a fuckin loser for having APPENDICITIS."

ColeP

6 years, 8 months ago

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My feeling is, there are two genders. Occasionally tgere are people who don't feel well as being a girl or boy and take steps towards finding their true identity which I am totally ok with. However I don't believe in this gender spectrum stuff I have heard about. Which is possibly much based on the usual internet comments. I did not care enough to read more about it. That's not to say I hate them and they should get psychiatric support. It's just my opinion and I am open for rational discussion about this.

Xujinan

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ ColeP

"	TheHudge wrote:
	That's not to say I hate them and they should get psychiatric support. It's just my opinion and I am open for rational discussion about this.

Many tend to have other mental illnesses, hence the enormous suicide rate. Many people want to support them, but usually they would need to see a psychiatrist because they're in a mentally bad place. Many who love trans people want them to transition or get psychiatric support because it would make them happier, or so it is thought.

CursedFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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I am not entirely sure what all the fuss is about here, except for pretty much insulting an entire group of people for the sayings of a few. The link you gave to voice your opinion on is obviously a site being ran by only a few people. Or at least a small group that's a bit too radical. Like the churches that handle rattlesnakes to prove their belief.

Its like clicking on a single random profile on F-List and deciding ALL furries are like that one profile.

I see what you are trying to say about pushing such ideas onto kids,and I do agree on that. But you are making it out like all trangender people are doing this and then declaring they are all sick and wrong for being themselves. You are pretty much declaring your own bad and very personal opinion as those of that website are. One is heads and the other is tails.

Anyway, that's my two pennies. Stepping away from it now and not going to respond to any replies on this matter.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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No, I'm not saying trans people are pushing this, I'm saying people who are pushing it are disgusting for doing so. The site I linked doesn't speak for trans people, nobody speaks for trans people since we're all individuals who speak for ourselves. I'm simply objecting to indoctrinating kids with lies.

CursedFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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I hate being a hypocrite for saying I would not respond, but...

"transgender people are ill and need support and help"

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Yes? It's an illness with a 40% suicide rate, the highest of any group in society by a large margin. So trans people need support and understanding, compassion. Your ability to quote me is not an argument or a reply.

Gehenna

6 years, 8 months ago

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Right, let us first define our terms. What do you mean by "transgender"?

Most people assume that means people with gender dysphoria, which is an actual mental disorder according to the DSM-5.

Yes, it is a disorder. And it is treated by... sex changes, donning clothing and attire common to the felt gender, etc.

Disorder =/= Necessarily bad. In fact, syaing that gender dysphoria ISN'T a mental disorder is very dangerous, and is where you get a lot of people with it committing suicide due to not having treatment.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Gehenna

Someone who feels the gender represented by their body is not who they really are, so they wish to be physically represented the way they feel inside.

Gehenna

6 years, 8 months ago

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I would note, Gender Dysphoria =/= Transgender.

Think of it like squares and rectangles. Someone who has gender Dysphoria is transgender, but someone who is transgender does not necessarily have gender Dysphoria.

"Transgender" is used as an umbrella term by the left side of politics for a lot of things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TksXhmf0QDc Have a fun video on this :P (I suspect just linking this is gonna get me a lot of hate from some of your detractors)

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Gehenna

Yes, I know one can get more technical but honestly it's just easier to use the one term. If I'm talking about trans people who are suffering, then I think it's clear what I'm talking about. Of course, it means I'll get plenty of people pissing on me for my terminological inexactitude but fuck it, seriously. Practically everybody who has argued with me has just completely invented what I've said anyway so I might as well have written "my dong is huge" in cantonese on a drawing of a cat's ass.

Gehenna

6 years, 8 months ago

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Some of them might be talking past you then, and you past them.

They assume you are talking about everyone who falls under the transgender label, and you assume they are talking only about people with gender dysphoria.

Though, plenty of them will just start screeching and screaming. So it's kinda a wash.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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this is actually happening on a much larger scale.. there are gender nuetral school is australia for fucks sake were they have little, grade school aged children, learning stuff like this, sex related stuff, and running around in girls clothing and useing femanen or gender neutral pronouns. Sweedens starting to do this crap to.

thats why were reacting so harshly to it. I dont care what ADULTS do. I care what adults make CHILDREN do. Indoctrination is not choice.

im perfectly happy about trans people, what ever man, if it mkaes you happy go for it, the only time i get upset is when this concept is forced on or encouraged in children by leftist parents as a way to virtue signal how damn progressive they are.

you wanna be trans cool, if I have a child who grows up and wants to switch genders or whatever, fine I wont LOVE them any less. but im not going to push the concept that timmy is a she becouse he wanted to ware a dress and have a tea party that one time lol. Kids are SUPER impressionable and SUPER maliable it is SO EASY to convince them something is normal or true even about themselves. Concepts like this gender unicorn are clearly aimed at children and are for that reaon, extreamly dangerous. Progressivism has infected our school systems at this point and what SHOULD be an opportunity to teach tolerance and acceptance has been perverted into a tool for glorifying this fantasy that you can be any number of magical genders and people HAVE to accept and embrace you for it.

TL;DR Im 100% cool with trans stuff, i am 100% NOT COOL with trans stuff being being introduced to young children who are still figuring out the other gender doesn't actually have cooties. this shit shouldn't be taught till high school at the earlyist even then i think it's a personal matter and should be handled by parents not the state.

KNIFE

6 years, 8 months ago

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"Chromosomes do not determine genitalia"

FUCKING WHAT????!!?!????!??!?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Khzhak

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ KNIFE

IKR? Technically, they do. Oh, wait, there are three genders. XX, XY, and the rare YY male. I think Y is male, or is it XX? Either way, that literally determines the plumbing. I'm no scientist, half of gender roles are taught anyhow.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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There's XX, XY, X0, XXX, XXY, XYY, and all the fun things that can happen when hormones go wrong.

Which is why insisting that there's only two genders is utterly and completely farcical, and is just as stupid and hateful coming from a gay person as it would be a straight person.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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A defect does not justify a new classification. In the end no matter what mix you do you'll be part male and or female. And almost always predominantly one or the other.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

@ KNIFE

KNIFE...dude... let me level with you for a sec..

it's all Psudeo Science... it's completely bullshit =p

Reyos

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ KNIFE

Reading the rest of the post you quoted boils down to -

Chromosomes do not determine genitalia
IF you fuck with the hormone balances while in utero.

I'm no biologist, that may be true, it may be bullshit, but if it is true it's a horrible thing to do.

Zakurei

6 years, 8 months ago

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While I believe every person should be treated with the same equality and respect as one another if they shown they have earned it and not based on their gender, sexuality, skin color, origin or identification, I do not think we should just sit and idly take every cry and whim of a mentally ill person who thinks they are so abnormal that they need to be treated differently but tell the world they are as normal as anyone. While I agree that anyone as as normal as the next (we are all human after all) I think the problem lies with the individual who feels they need to identify as different and abnormal instead of living their life in a society that values privacy. The problem is they have to make their psychosis known and they try to make people bend to their will and Americans hate being forced to do something that goes against their logic. We are NOT here to cater to the whims of people who aren't happy about their lives or appearance. That is THEIR problem and I am not going to fight for their right to be ridiculous, but I support every endeavor they take to make themselves happy and better themselves.

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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I..really think the gender unicorn isn't that bad in how it's written, from what I understood actually looking at it, it is just showing that you can be male, or female, or not, but choose to express yourself as masculine, feminine, or none, and then breaking down sexuality too.

like, I'm a transwoman, I identify as female, am feminine, and homosexual, as I'm only into girls. Meanwhile a femboy would be male, feminine, and then would have their sexuality.

that being said, chromosomes not determining your genitalia you're born with is complete bs.

CuriousFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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Well said.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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His point is that this reflects the feelings of a minority of mentally ill people, so it shouldn't be taught as fact to children. It can be harmful to their development.
And that's not an attack on transexual people. Mentally ill does not inherently mean worth less, nor does it mean crazy.

Your mind identifies your body as alien or incorrect, that sounds like something is going wrong in there to me in the context of your brain identifying with your body. It's not an attack on your reasoning skills or anything.

But if this is the case you should seek out help and deal with it how you feel comfortable and what ends up being best for you.

Not forced upon everyone else in an attempt to make your illness the "norm." That's cruel and unnecessary. It's fine to be abnormal. You're not worth less if you're ill.

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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except for most of us, being told we're "mentally ill" is harmful to us, there's a fine line between teaching tolerance, and pushing ideas onto others too far. we can't really tell what they mean from the gender unicorn, or the descriptions, if it's to provide information, or force others.

CuriousFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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It's difficult to force individual change or choice, you're more likely to build resentment then achieve a change in behavior.

This was intended, I asume to be informative. Roarey can't make other decisions for them even if he wanted to.

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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yeah, i know

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	NikkiBoundWolf wrote:
	except for most of us, being told we're "mentally ill" is harmful to us,

That's your own incorrect perception of the term "mentally ill."
But you are.
So am I, for different reasons.
Is that bad? I mean, I guess it's shitty for you because I'm sure coping with it has not been easy, and I'm sorry if it has not been.
Does it make you less of a person? No.
Does it remove your agency? No.
It's not harmful to you. It's the fact that people have taught you that it's an attack that is harmful.
That denial will hurt more than anything some people on the internet can say to you.

You're ill, you need treatment. Be it a therapist, hormones, transition, etc, whatever works for you in YOUR life.
But the problem with the gender unicorn is that it's denial. It's an attempt to project your abnormality(Which, I feel like I must note, abnormality isn't bad. It's just not normal. I'm abnormal; I'm gay. I don't think that's a bad thing though) onto people who it doesn't apply as a fact of /all/ people. And when done to children, vulnerable people, it has a potential for harm, because in 99 percent of cases it doesn't apply to them.
Get what i mean?

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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I still disagree to an extent, but I do understand where you're coming from

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Thank you for being civil about it, then.
Much love to ya.

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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to you too.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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I think part of the problem is that "metal illness" is a massive umbrella term for ANY form of abbarent mental state, including completely harmless, totally benign, nothing is actually WRONG with you conditions, as well as HOLY SHIT! Put this fucker in a straight jacket! conditions and everything in between.

to clarify I dont really think trans people are "ill" is the sense that they are "sick" or "can be fixed" it's just the language thats used to describe an abbarent mental state the differs from biological normality. But nature sometimes does that...so whatever. =p

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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makes sense, hence why me personally, it doesn't get under my skin. but I know people that it does bother greatly.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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i can completly understand that as well. it's far from an open and shut issue.

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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which I really wish more people would understand :/

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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theres a lot of knee jerking bullshit going on here i agree =p

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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mhm *Shrugs*

Reyos

6 years, 8 months ago

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I have ADHD, I am mentally ill.
I am bipolar, I am mentally ill.

It is what it is, this is a mental illness, like so many other things, and there are so few people who aren't mentally ill in one way or another anymore that we really have to get over attaching a stigma to the words.

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Reyos

while I would agree, some people take it as an insult, is all.

Reyos

6 years, 8 months ago

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That's my point, we need to stop being insulted by the truth, and we need to stop stigmatizing the mentally ill.

NikkiWolf315

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Reyos

I think the reason there's so much emphasis on classing being transgender as a mental illness, is like saying someone being gay is a mental illness, but I do understand why being trans is classed as one, well, gender dysphoria anyway.

MaximilianUltimata

6 years, 8 months ago

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First off, your unicorn's horn looks like it's a pen he tucked behind his ear.

Secondly, it looks like this chart was designed by someone/people who are playing very fast and loose with the science. It'd be like trying to take the Banana Creationist guy seriously.

The left has their own alternate group of extremists same as the right does; the problem I find is figuring out how much of it is actually real, since the right wing media and far and alt right in general have a lengthy history of serving red meat to further polarize their rabid base during slow news hours (the Starbucks controversy, the War on Christmas, War on Christianity, Pizzagate, the Seth Rich conspiracy, and this whole new "alternate facts" meme that needs to die a horrible flaming death). The increasingly-overbearing culture here in America between these two extremist ends is one where how something makes you feel overrides truth and reality, and if I was smarter, I'd be able to tie this in to the opioid crisis. I swear there's connective tissue somewhere, and I'm going to find it.

From my own experience, I've always had issues with my own gender because of... everything in my childhood, really. Long story short, my childhood was NOT normal, and I was never a normal child. My experience can only be described as anomalous at best and should not be used as an example for ANYTHING.

When it comes to my sexuality, I didn't realize I was bi until my college years, when I met an MtF trans woman who helped me better understand my sexuality. I figured out that I was bi leaning straight, but then as the years passed, I began to more seriously attempt to deconstruct what exactly my sexuality is and why. I figured out that while I am bi, I lean very strongly towards preferring feminine traits. It would also explain why I like futas so much.

Again, I shouldn't be used as an example for anything, but is that what sexuality and gender association and identity ultimately are? Biological gender is whatever role of the reproductive cycle you serve, but that hardly defines anything in terms of preference. I like my guys with feminine traits and my girls both with and without dicks, but I'm not attracted to burly men in the slightest. Is the penis masculine, or do we merely associate it with masculinity? Likewise, are we concerned only with what genitals we have, or our overall physicality and what we associate with masculinity and femininity? That doesn't even get into how we like our sex.

It's a more complicated question than either side at their best are willing or able to acknowledge, much less comprehend, much MUCH less try and introduce such alien concepts to children. On one hand, gender as we know it right now, combined with our collective culture as a species is immutably biological, but medical and cultural progress and the imaginations of artists have made the line between male and female increasingly blurred, to the point that we have to all take a step back and redefine everything we think we know about sexuality and genders. Ultimately science will potentially progress to the point where genders and physicality as a whole can be reshaped to whatever we want, and we as humans need to understand the nuances of our own culture and how we define genders and their associations.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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Why are people taking offense to you saying transgender people are ill?
That's not inherently negative of a thing to say.
They are ill, lol.
Especially when you readily admit you're also ill?

CuriousFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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They're taking it as a broad condemnation.

By the definition of normal, by the numbers they aren't. And they feel it's an attack.

They can't get past that perception of hostlity.

Kupok

6 years, 8 months ago

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I suppose the environment had become just right to toss off any pretext and go full Burned Fur.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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Did you read it or..?

Kupok

6 years, 8 months ago

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I read it. I understand the context, and I understand that this is specifically a gripe about teaching kids gender roles when kids' bodies aren't even ready for gender, and agree on that very specific context.

But this is bait and he knows it. With the specific way he presented this,
He knows this is gunna get Twitter up with pitchforks,
He knows it's going to generate outrage,
And he knows it will generate all the required "unwelcome in the fandom" feelings his conscious requires before he goes full blown Burned Fur. This post uses transgender issues as a tool, because that's the hot topic of the current-time. Roary doesn't actually care about kids or whatever, This is just a convenient thing for for him to generate outrage and be able feel smarter then the mob mentallity for not reading.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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Fuck, when can I learn to read minds too?!

Kupok

6 years, 8 months ago

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Cold reading is a skill anyone can learn man. Fuckers who pretend they can talk to the dead or read fortunes for cash do that day in and day out. And this isn't even a cold reading :O

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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You're right, you're not cold reading like them.
They had a career and were sometimes correct.
You're an internet armchair psychologist.
Kupo!

Kupok

6 years, 8 months ago

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Nono, Internet conspiracy theorist.
Tinfoil hat remember? Protective AND Fashionable.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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All you need now is a tinfoil hat and a fuckin police scanner stuck up your arse.

Kupok

6 years, 8 months ago

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Well at the very least, We now know that FurAffinity will take something down for Wrongthink.

My agreeing or disagreeing with you is irrelevant: You should be able to say it.

Teko

6 years, 8 months ago

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Why are you arguing for institutionalized child abuse?

Why don't you support children thinking for themselves?

Being transgender is not a mental illness, despite what you may believe. Your version of "truth" is only true for yourself.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

I'm arguing against that, actually. My "truth" is based on facts. It is a fact that transgender people represent a tiny minority. It is a fact that trans people are largely not gender fluid, they feel they are male or female, just born as the wrong one. They don't identify as one of the 72 invented genders on fucking tumblr. The material being pushed on kids insists that gender is independent across three different variables: expression, identification and biological sex. Over 99% of ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH identify and express the gender of their biological sex, so the three are not independent variables, they are directly related for almost everybody. Almost everybody represents a true trend. Anybody outside that binary is an exception that proves the rule, the trend is amplified by the existence of people who are distinct precisely BECAUSE they deviate from it. Therefore gender is not fucking fluid, it is not a social bloody construct, people are not blank slates to be moulded by others and there is a biologically contingent human nature. Teaching little kids their gender DOES NOT EXIST because a tiny percentage of people are not comfortable with identifying as either gender is ABUSE. Why is it abuse? Because growing up is a tempestuous and chaotic process and adding in ideologically-driven complications on top of what already exists will directly interfere with the development of over 99.9% of kids. This fluidity shit does not apply to almost the entire world population and teaching it as though it is universal is categorically wrong. Fuck you for insinuating I support child abuse, I'm not the one wanting to insert my goddamned ideology into their natural development. Ideas like yours are dangerous.

Teko

6 years, 8 months ago

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Fuck you for insinuating I support child abuse, I'm not the one wanting to insert my goddamned ideology into their natural development. Ideas like yours are dangerous.

You do, however. You support teaching children that gender cannot be changed, and that whatever they are feeling is wrong. This is exactly the same argument people use for "gay rehabilitation" and indoctrinating children into believing that they are heterosexual, no matter what they're feeling, because that's what you personally believe in. But as you're immediately going from "zero to fuck you" in one comment, it's clear you're not exactly rational or open minded. What a terrible person you are.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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No, I support teaching NOTHING about gender in schools because identity is something kids work out with their interactions with others, it is not something to be imposed from a teacher. I'm not open minded because I got angry with you for saying I support child abuse? Bitch, you wouldn't say that to someones face in public without expecting a punch, so don't say it online and expect politeness back. I will not be polite to people who fuck with me and I don't give a shit who has a problem with it.

Teko

6 years, 8 months ago

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RoareyRaccoon wrote:

No, that's not what you're saying. You're saying that children who self-identify as transgender are mentally ill, and that they're delusional, and that delusion is caused by society telling them that gender is fluid. And you're claiming those things are "facts" (which is conveniently something you just made up).

By no means am I "fucking with you", but it's clear you're itching for a fight with every image you post.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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If they require medicine, medical procedure and psychiatric help, they're ill. Suck it up, it's basic facts.

Teko

6 years, 8 months ago

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So let's say for example someone wants to start bodybuilding. They go all-in, join a gym, and start working really hard to overhaul their flabby body into something new. To do this really well and effectively, they require medicine (protein and vitamin supplements taken in massive amounts), medical procedures (overseen by a doctor, sports medicine for sprains and injuries), and psychiatric help (a personal coach/trainer to push you further, help you achieve goals, and break through personal barriers).

According to your "facts", someone going to a gym is therefore mentally ill.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Er no, because being trans isn't a choice. Bodybuilding is. We can keep at this if you like but you'll land on your ass with egg on your face every time. You're full of shit. Best of luck next time.

Teko

6 years, 8 months ago

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"Er no, because being trans isn't a choice."

Because gender is fluid, and being trans is not a delusion or illness. Correct. Well done!

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Gender fluidity doesn't exist, proven bi-modal distribution, no spectrum, no fluidity. If gender was fluid, it would change, for trans people with dysphoria their gender doesn't change, they're always the same gender, just with the wrong body. Just because people report they don't "feel" like their gender is fixed doesn't mean their gender isn't fixed. It is. Life doesn't give a fuck how you feel, nor does nature.

I said trans is an illness, that doesn't mean it is or isn't delusional. Delusional mental illnesses exist, non-delusional ones do. Your point is meaningless. Are you implying illness is a choice? I choose to have depression! Fuck me sideways lol.

Teko

6 years, 8 months ago

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Your point is meaningless. Are you implying illness is a choice?

Since being a transgendered person is not an illness, no, I am not. That's just how you're choosing to define it to make yourself feel better about not understanding it.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I don't feel either way about it. Do you need to project nonsense motives onto people when you can't argue with them? It doesn't look impressive unless one is a mollusc.

poner41

6 years, 8 months ago

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You have greatly earn my full respect I hope we can meet in real life someday ^w^

Blackpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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You are deliberately baiting a fight. Why, I don't know. Your text in the description is semi reasonable and even makes a good point with saying that children are in general too young to decide to transition. However your picture appears to be designed specifically to enflame and enrage, telling people of all ages that if they don't adhere to your standards they are wrong.

Between the last journal you posted about how people are attacking you, then posting this thing specifically designed to draw out that kind of response, I have to wonder truly if you don't actually enjoy the fighting and the drama. I think at some level you enjoy this, since you are deliberately drawing it close to you.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Blackpaw

I'm deliberately saying what I think. The fact there is a significant number of people who cannot abide reading things contrary to their own views is not an indictment of me it is an ILLUSTRATION of the fact that there are enough pathetic sacks of shit out there who cannot cope with ever encountering a contrary view.

Blackpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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You are deliberately saying what you think in the most hostile and aggressive manner possible in order to start a fight. You picked a hot button issue and declared that anyone who doesn't agree with you is involved in child abuse. you are out right hostile and deliberately phrasing things in a way you know will start a fight.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Blackpaw

No, if you look at the cartoon and my writing after it, you're telling me you can't possibly think of a more aggressive way to say it? I'm naturally aggressive in the way I argue, it's part of my personality. It doesn't mean you get to invent my intentions for me and type them out like they're true by virtue of you typing them. Fuck off. That's aggressive.

taurex

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm enjoying this, thank you.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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I've taken the time to read through this comment thread, and I'm not going to waste any further limited time I have on this earth to try to tell you why this is entirely wrongheaded.

You are every bit the bigot you appear, and being gay doesn't absolve you from it.

Fuck you, and may there be a mass exodus of people who stop watching you over this, as I have.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Okay, don't supply an argument, just insult me and leave. You're a cunt for that, and a coward. I've never seen you before in my life, never knew you even watched me. Guess how much I'm going to miss you.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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Why should I bother? Arguments bounce off you like bullets bounce off Superman's chest. But if you insist.

There are people who have extra X chromosomes, extra Y chromosomes, lack a second chromosome altogether, plus all the fun stuff that happens when one is immune to some hormones in their bodies.

This makes the claim that there's only two genders utterly asinine.

Moreover, there is a difference in transgendered people's brains that has been attested by science, but since it doesn't harm anyone, it's not an illness.

The high suicide rates? Because of transphobia and intense social pressures.

And you think because you like people the same gender as you that you can just call them all "ill" and get away with it?

"Normal" is a meaningless concept anyway. The more we study ourselves as humans, the more we find that "normal" doesn't exist.

TL;DR you don't have to be an asshole to people because of stuff they can't control.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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By the way? Multiple genders exist in other cultures besides western ones, including Mongolian and various North American Indian cultures. That's another mark against your position.

CuriousFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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Mythological refences of beings both male and female?

Or another type of gender completely.

You've garnered my curiosity.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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Both! Here's a wikipedia page to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

I especially recommend the History segment.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

"	doomcup wrote:
	There are people who have extra X chromosomes, extra Y chromosomes, lack a second chromosome altogether, plus all the fun stuff that happens when one is immune to some hormones in their bodies.

These are deformities/abnormalities.

"	doomcup wrote:
	Moreover, there is a difference in transgendered people's brains that has been attested by science, but since it doesn't harm anyone, it's not an illness.

An illness, or disease, is a disorder of function in someone.
It doesn't have to be inherently "harming" someone.
Vitiligo makes your skin have random lighter patches. It is a disease. It's not inherently harming anyone.
Should it not be a disease? It's still a disorder in the body. Much like your mind not identifying properly with the body you were born with is a disorder.
Does it make you a bad person? No. Does it disable you? No. Does it say anything about you mentally in terms of reasoning skills or agency? No.
You have an illness where there is a disconnect between your body and mind. Deal with it. I mean that literally. However you cope with it, whatever. But denial and applying your mental state to everyone else isn't going to solve anything.

"	doomcup wrote:
	The high suicide rates? Because of transphobia and intense social pressures.

No one who has actually done the research has found the rate to be much different with a supportive environment, or post successful transition.

"	doomcup wrote:
	"Normal" is a meaningless concept anyway. The more we study ourselves as humans, the more we find that "normal" doesn't exist.

Normal does exist. it is what is common, it is what is normal. As long as there will be a majority in something, there will be a normal. Is normal always inherently better? Not always. But saying normal doesn't exist is stupid.

"	doomcup wrote:
	TL;DR you don't have to be an asshole to people because of stuff they can't control.

He never was. He in fact advocated they go about coping with it however they like. You took it as an attack because you're in denial. Look at how hostile you got over this. Is this healthy? Do you think this is a healthy response to this simple statement roarey made? This benign non-attack?

You're in denial. Being told you're normal and nothing is wrong instead of letting you come to terms with and coping with the fact you're transexual and abnormal.(Which there is nothing wrong with)

YOU are the one who thinks it's wrong to be abnormal, so instead of overcoming that, you just convinced yourself there's no such thing as normal.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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The trouble with casting it all as "deformities and illnesses" is that people tend to look down on people with illnesses, and try to "cure" the "illness", which often has very tragic results (see also: gay conversion therapy).

Teaching kids that it's okay not to fit gender norms can do a lot more good than making them hate themselves because they don't fit their biological sex. I think that's far more damaging than giving them more information.

And "normal" may as well not exist. 100 years ago it was normal for black people to drink from different fountains than white people, and it was normal to think that they were a completely different species who could never coexist with white people.

Hell, "normal" even varies based on where you live on earth! "Normal" 40 miles away has an appreciable difference from "normal" where you are.

And guess what? Human rights and human dignity are not controlled by majority rule. They're something everyone has automatically. And if you're going to bring what the majority of people think into this, remember that in the US a majority don't believe in evolution.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	doomcup wrote:
	The trouble with casting it all as "deformities and illnesses" is that people tend to look down on people with illnesses, and try to "cure" the "illness", which often has very tragic results (see also: gay conversion therapy).

Yeah, because in the past people didn't know enough and they didn't respect the rights of the people undergoing treatment.
They also used to abuse people suffering from depression and make things worse. Because it was the past, medical knowledge was limited, and we didn't have this magical thing now where we respect the rights of the mentally ill if they are not at risk of harming people. Transexuals are not at risk of harming people. When people advocate treatment we are advocating proper diagnosis, coping mechanisms, therapy, and perhaps hormone treatments or transitioning. Not "un-transing" you or whatever.
Also when people try to "cure" and "illness" (Like gender dysphoria) we get things like hormone treatments and sex reassignment. Should we get rid of those treatments? Should we just back off entirely from medical research because people fucked up and made it worse in the past out of fear of doing that again?

"	doomcup wrote:
	everything else

I don't think you grasped anything I said.
In fact everything you just said can be slashed by the simple line I stated.
"Is normal always inherently better? Not always."

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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What does chromosomal aberration/variance have to do with this? People don't know their own chromosomes, unless they have their blood tested. If 99.9% of all people feel, identify, express the gender of the sex they were born with, then that's what is true for human nature. There are always exceptions in populations, there's always variance, but the existence of variance does not invalidate the concept of a trend. If there is a trend, and it is comprehensive enough, then there is a distinct reality. You cannot teach people that something which is very rare applies to everybody when it doesn't. That doesn't mean trans people don't exist and you can't promote acceptance and compassion, you just can't PRETEND it's representative of all human nature because it isn't. The facts don't give a toss what you feel, what your opinion is, what mine is. It's reality. We don't get anywhere in life by denying reality and I could never tell someone I care about to do or believe what will actually harm them in the world. Identity is something we negotiate with other people, so I'm not a good or bad person by virtue of me saying I am, I'm not anything just by virtue of me saying it. That's something I negotiate and work out as I interact with other people. Normal also isn't meaningless, it means a lot if you want to get along with other people and if you weird them out or fuck them off too much you're screwed. Kinda like how my existence online would be easier if I never expressed my opinions, so it's a case of balancing the pros and cons and making a decision. I decide to tell the truth as I see it and see what happens, to argue my case the best I can and see if I get buried.

You can't blame suicide rates on society, trans people have a 40% suicide rate, massively higher than any other group in society, regardless of maltreatment and ostracism. If trans isn't an illness, what do you think would happen were all medical, medicinal and psychiatric care withdrawn from trans people that's related to their condition? My guess is disaster. Saying something is an illness is not an insult, it's a recognition of the seriousness of something that someone is going through. I don't say transgenderism is an illness to denigrate it, I say it out of respect for its gravity as something that flips peoples entire worlds upside down. If I wanted to be hateful and flippant I'd say some bullshit like "trans people are so pathetic they waste their lives agonising over their gender". Well if gender is fluid and a spectrum and only depends upon what a particular person FEELS, then gender really is a joke. The fact that gender dysphoria is so traumatic indicates that gender is NOT something that flows about like a fucking river.

The existence of people who do not fit into the gender distribution does not prove gender isn't binary, it proves people can exist outside a general trend. To note that people born with a genetic disease exist doesn't suddenly mean that there's no such thing as genetic disease, because it's all a spectrum and identifying genetic diseases is hateful.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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You made the specific claim that there's only two genders. You don't get to weasel your way out of making that claim through your massive paragraph verbal diarrhea.

What gender is a person with XXXY chromosomes?

What gender is a person born male who lost their genitals in an accident?

What gender is a person born male but immune to androgen, and thus look completely female with internalized male organs?

And why would one of these questions be treated differently than the other two?

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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There are only two genders. Look at society, does it cater to multiple genders or is it set up with the obvious assumption that there are men and women and nothing else? That's not an act of suppression/oppression, it stems from the basic fact that human beings are either male or female, which applies to everybody other than a tiny percentage. I never said genitals = gender, so losing your bollocks in a traffic accident means nothing whatsoever. The gender of a person with XXXY chromosomes is "attack helicopter". How the fuck should I know? I'm talking about society as a whole, not people with freak chromosomal compositions. Again, you ignore everything I've said and call it the shits, because you can't argue worth a damn.

KaisarDragon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I've seen your entire argument, word for word, used against gay individuals. Gay people have a high suicide rate, isn't society's fault, it is a mental illness. Society should not have to conform. Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. If I wasn't so sure you actually believed your drivel, you'd be the greatest troll I've ever seen.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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Good fucking thing you weren't alive 100 years ago and people didn't think like you do, because nobody could ever be gay and white people could never be equal to black people by that logic.

And it doesn't matter how tiny the percentage is, because, and try to follow me because I know this is a hard concept for you, THAT PERCENTAGE EXISTS.

Tiny does not equal non-existent.

And speaking of ignoring, you're also ignoring historical concepts that long predate the societal architecture you claim is correct and eternal, like I pointed out earlier.

Oh, by the way, that not being an asshole thing you claim? Walk up to someone with four X chromosomes and call them a freak to their face. But we both know you won't, because that would take a spine and some balls.

You try to couch up your bigotry and assholishness in "I just made a picture it's not really mean lol", but the truth is you're just masking how truly ugly and repugnant your ideas are here. And it's not fooling all of us.

Also you can't have a society without individuals. Those individuals make up society.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Waaaaaaaaaaambulance.

doomcup

6 years, 8 months ago

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What's the matter? Run out of arguments? Where's your eloquence now? Or do you by some strange mental sprain think you've won this argument?

Either way, I see no reason to continue any further. It's pointless to keep verbally punching this boxing clown in the shape of a dildo.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Have a look around. This pic is also on FA and twitter. I've had literally hundreds of people hurl abuse at me all day and you think I'm going to sit down and calmly discuss this with you while you slur me from the get-go? Nope! You don't have a ton of simultaneous arguments going on, I do, and I've had a lot to focus on. Why should I make time for you when all you can do is label my arguments as runny turd and tell me what a scumbag I am? Piss off, you entitled ponce.

elderflowerpudding

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

you really believe that civilization advancing equates to the adoption of so-called liberal values, don't you? you're a great example of why social engineering works best on a population that's lost ties with the suffering of previous generations.

speaking about the united states, since that is where i'm from, we had a women's movement in the early part of last century, then we had a race movement in the middle part of the last century; and both are over now. they succeeded. we have now, at least in our laws, school integration, abortion, expanded suffrage, and nondiscrimination in employment. and the cities where those policies are failing, for example by disproportionately affecting racial minorities, it's because of an overabundance of socialist thought and a lack of capitalist thought. and that's the deeper point.

pretty much everyone agrees: socialism would be fantastic if it ever worked out like it does in the imaginations of idealists. but, even though people are magnificently capable of cooperation, they're also evolved to take care of themselves and their loved ones first and strangers second, especially if there's desperation or a great sum of money involved. you don't want the united states to become venezuela, do you? where they're selling trash out of the dumpsters to each other to survive because the supposedly socialist state stole everything? yes, they weren't real socialists; that is the point. it doesn't work in practice and turns into a dictatorship because it's too easily manipulated, because of the same greed liberals supposedly hate corporations for.

look at the news lately. socialist/"anti-discrimination" activism has produced in this country (the US):
  -colleges that endorse special days of segregation under the guise of providing safe spaces
  -planned parenthoods popping up disproportionately in ghettos to help poor people, usually poor minorities, hold themselves down
  -affirmative action, which forces minorities (and soon women) who may not be qualified to cheat to achieve employment, etc. and slowly ruin the institutions they become a part of from the inside
  -the great machine of institutional medicine just waiting to allow people who haven't given it sufficient thought, either because they're too young or too anxious, to make permanent changes to their bodies with long-lasting health implications
and many more horrors that deconstruct and dismantle the very system you want those trodden-upon folks to use to use to make something of themselves.

continuing to shout about it has the same effect overtraining an AI does. we've confused ourselves and, in our race to become the most enlightened people, blithely cemented over the parts of reality that don't fit our rosy ideals. and it's hilarious because instead of helping people who need help, you're now pretending they don't need help instead. we can give a person who's had their leg amputated a ramp to get their wheelchair up without claiming that the human species isn't bipedal; why can we not give a person who's confused about their gender mental-health treatment so they can make up their minds better without claiming that the human species isn't bigonadal? that used to be the left's platform, at least ostensibly, to help those who needed it. but again, you guys are running with the policies that you've been taught are supposed to help people without sufficient understanding of the effects of those policies. you're taking things too far, and you're unwilling to reflect on, and revamp, failed ideas.

i'd say this whole debate, including the symptomatic confusion of gender for sex, is caused by the currently unnecessary, misplaced fervor of left-wing activists conflating fantasy with reality and searching ever harder for something to protest over in a morally superior manner because that's all they've ever been taught to do. and, you know, by the globalist cartels manipulating people for profit and political advancement.

Reyos

6 years, 8 months ago

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You're talking Down Syndrome and Turner Syndrome, or all the others I am not sure of all the names, this doesn't change the gender or sex of the individual, Down is not a gender or a sex, neither is Turner.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Advocating for not teaching about gender doesn't make you a bigot. In fact it is pretty fucking pro trans rights to just leave the concept of gender roles out of children's education entirely. But your so fucking hung up on your 70 fake genders that you cant see that. You are the problem. You are essentially the 'bigot' of alternative ideals.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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THIS!

but the left has lost it's god damned mind lately and see anything thats not a outpooring of sicphantic support for anything and EVRYTHING related to transgenderism as oppasition.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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i honestly am trying so hard to be moderate but its really fucking hard. I feel like a madman to humor some of these ideas.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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you probobly ARE a moderate I know I am i've never been ahrd left or hard right...but lately i feel like i LOOK hard right. it's frustrateing.

KaisarDragon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I don't even know where to begin with this one. It is the real world equivalent of Israelis committing genocide now. The gay community has gotten so bold that they now attack sexual identities. Is that what this is? You need to define gender, first. If you are going to say truth is your facts then you are going to have to discount the entire scientific community first.

Gender by choice? More than two.
Gender by science? A spectrum as complicated as DNA
Gender by society norms which used to shun gay people and called them mentally ill? Two.

CuriousFerret

6 years, 8 months ago

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O.k. first off Roarey does not speak for all gays.

Second making an analogy to this pic and genocide is inappropriate.

As for a spectrum of gender based off science, whats that even mean. So far scientific genders are male, female, both, or asexual.

I'm not aware of a scientific discovery of another set of genders.

KaisarDragon

6 years, 8 months ago

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It is comparing this pic to genocide only because you made it that way. If you had picked up on the context provided you would see that a gay person hating on trans is as ironic as Jews committing genocide, which both are happening right now.

As far as more than two genders, that has been the case for quite a while and there are surgeries done to children to try and enforce a sort of normalcy. I mean, even if you want to be an asshat and tell people they are mentally ill, there are still asexual and dual. So, more than two.

Are you going to tell me gender is pure physical based on what equipment a person has and not mindset? That would make being a gay a mental illness. I, too, don't get most of these genders, but neither do I care enough to go out and try this suppression of them. Your pic is wrong, oppressive, and none of your concern all wrapped up into one. You can have your bigoted opinion, but you do not get to say it isn't bigoted.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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What gay community? I'm not in a fucking cult, I'm an individual person expressing my personal beliefs. I couldn't give a shit what other gay people are bloody doing and saying. Jesus.

KaisarDragon

6 years, 8 months ago

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And be glad you get to do that now. Because not too long ago you'd be treated like you treat trans now, dragged out into the streets, and beaten to death.

I guess now that society conformed to accept gay people you can use the same logic used against you in the past to justify it on another subset. If you were shooting for the perfect example of irony, you nailed it.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I drag trans people into the street and beat them to death? Must've done that while sleep walking, I don't remember any of it. I'll cut to the chase: fuck off, shitcannon.

KaisarDragon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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You did not supply any argument either, just false equivalences and incorrect comparisons. Saying there are two genders and trans people should be allowed to transition to satisfy their needs is pro trans. Obnoxious fuckwits that say there are more genders are the minority of a minority. And saying we shouldn't teach kids anything about gender is also pretty pro trans since we aren't hammering any gender specific roles in. This is the stance Rorarey has taken and if you actually read the thread you'd know that.

Relee

6 years, 8 months ago

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Geez. I'm kind of in the middle ground on this arguement since I know people who are transsexuals and people who will hate me for using the word transsexual, both. But reading through the comments it's clear some people just really don't like you Roarey. They just commented to pick a fight with you or make fun of you or whatever. Most of them aren't even arguing anything.

Based on what the transsexuals I know tell me, you're not really wrong, but I'm not sure you're seeing the whole picture. There may be two sexes (not counting mutants etc) but there seem to be many gender identities. Sex is something defined by biology, while Gender is something more defined by culture, how we behave and express ourselves. It's like, what does wearing a dress have to do with having a vagina?

Anyways to finish this off I'll link to an interesting Imgur collection of gender and sex in different animals. I think it's good food for thought. We don't fully understand sex and gender scientifically yet, so I think it's good to keep an open mind.
http://imgur.com/gallery/XybDO

WeakenedState

6 years, 8 months ago

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https://youtu.be/8U18EuNN2D0

Sleepyly

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

For me nothing is an illness unless someone is suffering with it so if you can be a mentally healthy trans there is absolutely no problem with identifying with other gender but i do recognize that being trans require initial body dysmorphia wich is a mental illness on itself, however some ppl just accept they are never going to have their ideal bodies, others make surgery so for those who just beat dysmorphia one way or another its still an illness? Also its kinda dehumanizing to call it an illness even if that definition was kind of right, plus you can be neutral and not care for any gender tho agender isn't trans i guess

I think there is a reason to everything and that might be my own subjective view but i see beauty in non gender conforming and transformation, its not because it's statistically abnormal that it is wrong and that's what people meant with "normal"

But yeah i agree that they should stay out of children education, they will just be confused wich will make their lifes worse, they should be taught to ACCEPT and not bully or judge people who are different

EDIT: Brace yourself for shadowbanning transphobic Roarey campaign and massive furry drama lol

Lunarshark

6 years, 8 months ago

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While I'm cool with you having your own thoughts and making an argument for it, even if I disagree with you, I have to wonder as to why you'd post this here? If you want a discussion or to make people think about this issue, why not go to a more academic site or some group that supports LGBTQ and ask if you can have a rational discussion in person? I know some people can and will overreact, but it's a better alternative than posting on a website that was made for cub drawings. I don't think the majority of people who follow you are here for this, and it does stir up controversy. I dunno, maybe this will just get ignored or you think you'll do good on this, but I'm of the opinion this should be discussed elsewhere.
Oh, and I just have to bring this up. 20 years of chronic depression gives not insight to all phycological stems of despair, nor inherently ones about gender confusion. I've had dyslexia my whole life, that doesn't mean I understand what every other dyslexic goes through with their reading issues. That's the most argumentive I'm going to get, and it's a reaction, not a calculated and researched response. I'm trying to be nonconfrontational, but even then I had to say that because it's something I see people do a lot.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Lunarshark

I post it here because here is my gallery, for my stuff. Also, the fandom is utterly infested with SJW leftists cult members and I want to make sure their revolting bullshit is challenged because I don't want the west to resemble fucking Venezuela.

Lunarshark

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	RoareyRaccoon wrote:
	the fandom is utterly infested with SJW leftists cult members and I want to make sure their revolting bullshit is challenged because I don't want the west to resemble fucking Venezuela.

Ok, how many minds are you going to change here though? You post your stuff here, that's cool and understandable. But first off, "leftist cult members" is a great way to turn off any potential debate. "Areshole" or no, even fewer people are open to talks when someone is being so hostile. Second, how many "leftists" are going to read this fully you think? Most people will see "politics" and either click away or open and already have their thoughts decided. Challenge left ideas, please, bring something to make other people think and question their assumptions. But I'm reminded of this https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=280263 where people attacked you for changing your mind. The question is, how can we keep people from attack "others"? Doubtful it'll be online with the power of anonymity. However, in person, you can form a connection with who you're talking with. Putting aside all you want to say, I think the best way to change minds or discuss real issues is to talk face to face with those people. But then again, that's just my opinion.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Lunarshark

I'm not going to change minds, that's not a goal I have. Changing peoples minds requires serious investment, a personal relationship with someone. I'm just drawing stuff I want to draw, putting it up in my gallery and saying what I think. Then people react and I react back. That's it. I'm not being funny dude, but I really don't want a lecture about tactics, I'm not playing a game.

Lunarshark

6 years, 8 months ago

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Then you're just making noise? But what good does that serve? I know you're not trying to be funny, but if you're not trying to do anything...then what's the point? You clearly put time, thought, and effort into this. And it's all for what, pleasing some and upsetting others? It's confusing to me that you'd take the time to respond to people if you're just doing it for kicks.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

@ Lunarshark

It's partly masochism, partly that I enjoy debate, partly that I like to draw silly shit and then see what the feedback is. Entertainment and principle, basically. Btw, what good do you serve? Stop asking me to justify myself, for fuck sake.

Lunarshark

6 years, 8 months ago

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....eh, I can see the reasoning in that then. I don't get it, but it's your reasons and I know what they are. Hope you have fun with it, and not too many people call you a bigot when I don't think you're trying to.

ZephonTsol

6 years, 8 months ago

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As to the topic of what you said, I think that's a fair and valid point. It's probably a very good idea to wait until young adulthood for kids to start figuring out what they want to be. I think everyone in this conversation remembers their first attempt at "love" and how goofy and silly it was, plus they probably remember their first time in the sack as well. Not a pretty image for anyone, right?

Well, that sort of stuff should probably be discussed around the teenage range so they can make informed decisions. Simple enough.

As to this comment section...ya'll furries need to step back for a moment and breathe. We as a society are so hung up on this and so caught up in our own little debates that we're missing the point: you want to be something, be it. No one can tell you that you shouldn't. But for pity's sakes, mistakes and accidents DO happen when addressing others of differing gender identity (male, female, helicopter, whatever). So here's my two cents of easy advice:

-If you are a TG'd person, please respect others who may not be used to your new identity yet. It takes time (up to two weeks) for a drastic change to settle in and become routine. It's difficult and patience will play out. Your friends and neighbors will definitely appreciate your willingness to quietly help them adjust.
-If someone you know is a TG'd person, they're likely going through a hell of a rough stretch. Hormones, bodily changes, modifications, the works. That's serious shit to deal with. They likely will need a shoulder to lean on and if you're their family/friend, nothing about WHO they are has changed really. So offer them that because that's what friends/family do.
-If you are online discussing the issue and championing one side or another...stop. Neither side needs you to white knight for it and if there's anything we know, online arguments *rarely* cause anyone's opinions to change. If you run into an asshole on *either side* of the issue, you probably won't fix them. So save yourself the trouble and step away. Chances are, if they are able to, the opposition will grow on their own without your killer arguments. And for pete's sakes, resist trying to have the last word.

More than anything else, just relax. This stuff is working its way through and yes, it's a right mess right now. But being angry and pissed off at THEM (whoever they may be) won't help. You want to make a change? Be good to others, regardless of whether they agree with you or not. Your refusal to engage in anger will help and will take out the other side's viewpoint that there's no dealing with you or your side.

Be nice, okay guys? We kind of ARE on the same side here. Remember?

rolandjackal

6 years, 8 months ago

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A bit obvious, but right now we need you, Captain Obvious.

Norithics

6 years, 8 months ago

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This topic deserved a lot more thought, attention and research than you gave it. You're not 'politically incorrect,' you're just... wrong.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm not, actually. Nobody has demonstrated that I am either. Misrepresenting me as saying shit I've never said is not an argument and that's literally all that people have done.

Norithics

6 years, 8 months ago

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Well... actually they have, but alright, I'll take a shot.

Problem 1:
Modern scientific understanding... doesn't agree with you on this. Yes, using our 8th grade Biology books, maybe you could mount a defense of this "gender is inherent to sex" argument but as we've come to find out, it's a lot more complicated than that, and unfortunately, a lot harder to draw such stark lines through. Behavioral Science is one of the 'soft' sciences for a reason: because they rely on the base of human behavior in order to form a consensus to build on, aaaand that's about as stable as wet tissues. People would love to go to Neurology for more concrete answers, but that science is still in its infancy. Speaking of soft sciences-

Problem 2:
You've taken statistics and mis-attributed the cause. "Lots of trans kids commit suicide" isn't on transgender people for existing and furthering their advanced understanding into the cultural diaspora- it's on people who obviously don't accept new information and judge them harshly for trying to step out of boxes. Like back when gay kids used to commit suicide a lot; that wasn't the fault of gay people writ large, even though people made the same arguments- it was the fault of intolerant straight people who also beggared the "Think of the children" argument.

Problem 3:
You keep bringing up statistical anomalies as if they make the point that kids should just be kept in the dark about this, but again, this blithely ignores that similar statistical estimations of gay people were brought up just the same way until it became more acceptable to be gay in society and uh oh, there turned out to be way more of them than we thought! So you saying that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few is both a) kind of ironic and b) impossible for you, or I, or anyone else to actually quantify for the reasons stated. And finally, that brings us to-

Problem 4:
Because of what we understand about gender- namely that the biological component of them is far, far less emphasized in comparison to the learned, behavioral one- the main thrust of your argument kind of falls flat on its face, because what you deem 'lies' are really just more modern understandings of old social standards that are no longer concretely applicable. It's essentially like saying "Don't brainwash kids with your propaganda, they need stable, much more widely accepted propaganda."

It's not even a political argument, it's just... observational!

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'll try and give you a proper response tomorrow, if I can. There's been a lot of insane bullshit to deal with today, twitter is abuzz with what a piece of shit I am haha. For now though I'm too knackered.

Norithics

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Ooh, I have another point for you!

Problem 5:
In point of fact, many trans people have gone on to greatly regret transition surgeries and other such more permanent changes to their bodies. But more often than not they felt they were pushed into these choices by the fact that people around them criticized their choices with- and you won't believe this- exactly the same arguments you've put forth: "You're young, you don't know what you're doing, this stuff is all fluff." As it turns out, the best way to have someone make terrible choices in their life is to harshly criticize them. Whereas if you simply say, "Oh? Okay then, explain it to me so I understand," they suddenly have no choice but to evaluate their decisions on their own merit, with nobody to blame or rebel against, which is the biggest wheat-from-the-chaff moment for any child. So even on a tactical level this is just not really a good idea. At all.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Modern scientific understanding does, because the social sciences are not science at all, for the most part, but ideologically driven left wing nonsense, disguised as science. The only decent thing I can think of from social science is the gini coefficient. I've actually read about a dozen books on social science, I used to give it a lot of credibility, but it's largely utter shite. I don't use 100% accurate statistical numbers because there's actually no such thing, what I'm trying to show is that almost everybody, always, always identifies as the same gender they were born into, that is represented by their biological sex. The people with gender disphoria/transgenderism also fall only into male and female, they simply feel their body is the wrong one of those two. Any distribution that over 99% of the time falls into one of two categories is a bi-modal distribution, not a spectrum. It will never, ever be a spectrum.

Aside from all this bunk you've written to me that I never even talked about, here's my point in a simple, basic, direct form:

It is GOOD to teach awareness of trans people in classes for kids who are at least teenagers.

It is GOOD to help those with trans issues, to be sympathetic and understanding to the extent we can be.

It is SHIT to create genderless schools, like in Sweden, which attempt to "erase the concept of gender" in the young.

It is SHIT to tell children that their gender can be anything they think it is, because they're little children with no clue about life and at a stage where they absorb almost everything they're told without question. Why? Because for over 99% of those same children, this will NOT FUCKING APPLY.

Take a moment, just think about this because it's serious as shit and I'm sick of people being flippant about it. Just drop the ideology for one moment and consider: if we intervene in the development of children to tell them something that no generation in human history has ever done with kids, that has never been a part of human culture (a few people in history who were recognised as outside male/female are NOT a fucking culture), is there not some risk? Are you prepared to be FINE with trying out a social experiment on the minds of children? If so, you're the sort of person who should never have any authority whatsoever. So all teachers and admins who want this should not have jobs, it's putting lives at risk and human beings are not ours to fuck with just so we feel correct about our god damned world view. Leave kids alone, keep the fucking hormones and knives and propaganda out of it, let them grow up, find out more about who they are and if they turn out to be trans, provide help. END OF STORY.

If you weren't so busy jerking off about who is "right" in this pseudoscience, you'd see the basic fact that we're talking about real kids in the real world, and they're not our playthings. Got it? Is it finally clear? I bloody hope so.

Norithics

6 years, 8 months ago

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Welp, I tried! You failed to absorb any of what I said because, ironically, you can't step out of your own ideology. You've written off entire swaths of Science because they don't fit with your agenda, and just restated your point extra-forcefully. You say the studies I've referenced are bunk, but you're only going off of your gut. That's hilarious.

Also? The children will be fucking fine. Because children go through weird, awkward, cringey phases a n y w a y. If anything, all the provably wrong nonsense that 'accepted' societal discourse teaches them is what'll really get them fucked up.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Nope, I've stated basic, understandable points. It is a fact that gender is a bi-modal distribution that can't be magicked away by any degree of rhetoric. You can't answer to the question of being willing to fuck with kids heads for the sake of your own point of view. I don't advocate indoctrinating them with anything whatsoever, you do. I'm content enough having that score settled, I don't need to know anything more from you. To me, children aren't toys or lambs to be led around by a centralised, government funded, sickening set of cultists who need, absolutely need, to get them while they're young and make sure they think correctly.

Norithics

6 years, 8 months ago

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Right, they're just toys who need to suck down mainstream propaganda! That's harmless right! Nobody ever suffers under that shit.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Mainstream propaganda like what? Oh yeah, yours.

Norithics

6 years, 8 months ago

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I was gonna post something snarky, but honestly, I think I'm just gonna bow out. The trajectory of Society will prove which one of us is right.

PearlyIridescence

6 years, 8 months ago

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hey op, pee your pants. thanks.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ PearlyIridescence

I'll pee yours if you're so into pee.

LoZeed

6 years, 8 months ago

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Good lord, this is the work of someone who loves the smell of shit hitting the fan.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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I have to agree with you entirely on this. While im perfectly Ok with transgender people these identitarian politics bullshit needs to stop NOW especial when it pertains to children.

Delquea

6 years, 8 months ago

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That and how this is damaging to teach a child, but yet forcing them into believing a religion before "they're old enough to ask questions", is perfectly fine. XD

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Delquea

hey im not super into teaching kids relgion either but the major differance between them is a kid and STOP being in a relgion =p if there parents are convinced there trans so there on puberity blockers and estrogene and then later on in life realize. OPPSIE maybe im not.." there kinda a bit more fucked....

Im perfectly ok with transgender rights man just...not involveing kids. if your not old enough to drink smoke fuck gamble or die for your country your not old enough for gender reasignment so i dont think we should be teaching them this ins schools.

im not saying DONT teach them if they ask questions answer them, but let them learn and define themselves.

Delquea

6 years, 8 months ago

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Which is why I dont support teaching kids anything they not suppose to understand, but its still forced on kids cos they'd be too young to question it. that include religion, sexuality, political agendas and so on.

Let them figure it out.

AdonisTox

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Is this one of those moments where stupid people who have no idea what they're talking about get offended by logic and reality?

RMoD

6 years, 8 months ago

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It looks like it.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Yup.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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bingo

AlexReynard

6 years, 8 months ago

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And on both sides! Both of them thinking they're being a hero by opposing the other side, who is not just wrong, but dangerous!

I came in here trying to play referee. This is a topic tailor-made for people to tear each other's throats out of misunderstanding.

LoZeed

6 years, 8 months ago

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I guess if there's any lesson to learn from this it's yesterday's ostracized can become today's biggots, it's a sad cycle.

Fellarts

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

That's a really cute unicorn! Please make a version where it's a dickgirl.

TheRevengeX11

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Fellarts

slow clap

Best comment of this entire page.

AlexReynard

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

There are four different definitions (that I've seen) of the word 'friendzone'. This makes any discussion of the topic a clusterfuck. People who say they don't believe in it get yelled at by people who do, and both are envisioning something wholly different.

Such is the case with trans.

I haven't read the comments here, Roarey, I've only been told by friends that they are a horrorshow. Not surprising. Every time the subject comes up on Imgur people are at each other's throats. For the record, I agree with your central point: this condition is rare as fuck, and we don't need to teach kids otherwise and confuse the fuck out of them. We already fill their heads with lies about sex anyway. We can't even be honest about normal human bodies, so we're not gonna be any good at conveying nuances about trans.

I've researched this a lot. From everything I've seen, I have concluded this: Transsexualism, gender dysphoria, and genderfluidity are THREE SEPARATE THINGS. One is a birth defect, one is a mental illness, and one is a choice. And it is very important to acknowledge this, because the best treatments for trans and dysphoria are the exact opposite of each other, plus these real sufferers do not need trendy college kids trying to steal attention away from them by claiming to have a condition they've been deliberately misinformed about.

Trans is a birth defect. (And that term has no judgement or shame. A cleft palate or missing limb are birth defects as well.) Like you said, it's extremely rare. In utero, the brain and body of the fetus develop separately. Mascuine or feminine behavior is largely determined by hormones. Apparently the big catalyst is whether the kid gets a burst of testosterone or not, since all babies start off with the female template. Sometimes, even when the genes and structure of the body are one gender, the fetus will accidentally get the wrong hormones. This causes their brain to develop the opposite gender identity as the body. And this is STRUCTURAL. This can be observed on an MRI. Men and women have wholly different ratios of white and grey matter in their brains, and the brains of trans people have the structure of the gender they identify with, not the sex of their body. No therapy or threat in the world will ever make them accept their 'correct' gender, because their brain is hardwired this way. Same as gay conversion therapy, it can only cause them suicide-inducing levels of agony.

Gender dysphoria is best understood by comparing it to anorexia. It is a mental illness. It is a hatred of the body. In the case of anorexia, the obsession is with weight. In the case of gender dysphoria, the obsession is gender. As far as I know it's cause is as random as when two kids watch the same cartoon clip and one develops a phobia of the subject matter and the other a fetish. But with dysmorphic disorders, the best treatment is to help them learn to love themselves and accept their body. You can see why it's so important to differentiate trans and dysphoria, otherwise you will be torturing these people.

Lastly there's genderfludity. This is not based on anything more than postmodernistic ideology. People who believe everything is subjective and gender is wholly a social construct. This is as unscientific as creationism. But it's really really popular right now, and worse, people think it is the more compassionate view, so they will fight with moral outrage against anyone who says different. (I had yet another long argument last night about it, that started civil and evidence-based and they grew more petty, insulting and curt as I would not accept their beliefs.) Good intentions + lies = worse harm long-term. These people are turning a real medical condition into a trendy way to feel special online or on campus, and they're stealing attention from real sufferers to do it. I am fiercely impatient for the emotion to die down on this issue so real facts can shine through.

AlexReynard

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

BTW, since you talked specifically about children, I actually think that what you described is plausible. I've definitely observed certain types of parents who view their children as competition with other families, so trans is yet another way to make their average little spudbaby seem exceptional. "Look at these photos! My little Krystÿn is only two and already reading at a college level, can speak Korean, and shi's TRANS! Now here's her preferred pronouns..."

On the other hand, I've also heard that ages 4-6 are when real trans children first begin to realize this about themselves. NOT in their teenage years (that's more likely a sign of dysphoria or simply trying to find their own identity). This makes sense, as gender is one of the first things we learn as we begin to differentiate ourselves from other people. Some scoff at this, but I enjoy asking them, "So if your mom dressed you up in the opposite gender's clothes at five years old and made you go to school like that, do you think maybe you might have resisted that?"

Also, here's my standard link dump for these kinds of posts
Research sees difference in TG patients ratio of white-to-grey matter: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexua...
Further exploration of grey matter ratios: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/?t...
Research sees differences in the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminals: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
Research on how gendered brain differences happen in utero, not afterwards: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
Research on how gendered brain development and body development happen separately: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20889965
Research finding that TG children who are supported do not develop depression: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/20...
Article discussing various biological causes for gendered behavior: https://www.dana.org/Cerebrum/2014/Equal_%E2%89%A0_The_...

Woofstep

6 years, 8 months ago

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God, can't believe I found someone who managed to write down what I exactly think.

That really was a refreshing read for me considering you even provided sources. Now if only tweets were longer so you could post it there as well.

AlexReynard

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Woofstep

Imgur has only 140 characters too, but it's been a godsend for me in training me to make my points as succinctly as possible. But bit.ly has been a godsend to me for arguing on Imgur since it's a URL shortener. Lovely idea!

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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I read through all of this... and im glad that I did, it's a breath of fresh are, elegantly put and well reasoned as always.

I find myself agreeing pretty solidly. the vitriol about this topic that gets thrown around helps nobody.

AlexReynard

6 years, 8 months ago

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Danke shoen, Kev. I've been in a LOT of shitshows on this topic, and it gets so ugly. It's so easy for people on either side to feel like they're in the moral right and anyone disagreeing is a dangerous threat. It justifies anger. I try as hard as I can to interject that, for fuck's sakes, we have barely begun to understand this topic, so if someone does not agree with you, they are probably not full of hate, they are probably just misinformed. (Or trolling.) That applies to both sides, as I've seen some oversimplistic, exaggerated extremes come out of both deniers and defenders.

Also, since I forgot in both my effing comments to say it, my view on how to handle kids and TG is simple: don't bring it up unless they ask, and if they do ask, keep it simple and apolitical. It really is rare enough that the potential to mislead kids by telling them all this too soon is very high. Let the kid experiment all they want with gender, let 'em put on whatever clothes they want, play with whatever toys they want, put on lipstick, throw footballs, whatever. Let them explore and don't try to force ANYTHING on them. From what I've read, being accepting of TG kids reduces depression significantly. Same for gay kids. There's a lot of parallels.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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I have ALLWAYS been up for civil discussion about ANY toipic.. even civil disagreements about any topic.. how the hell else do we learn if we dont debate, a debate is MENT not as a chance to convert people..thats an argument.. a debate is an exchange of IDEAS!

far to often today thats not the case! Free speech is under attack and anybody who disagrees with you is your personal and moral enemy!

it's scary shit man DX

AlexReynard

6 years, 8 months ago

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>I have ALLWAYS been up for civil discussion about ANY toipic.. even civil disagreements about any topic.. how the hell else do we learn if we dont debate, a debate is MENT not as a chance to convert people..thats an argument.. a debate is an exchange of IDEAS!

Should be, absolutely. But emotions fuck us up. Emotions basically give us drug highs when we feel moral outrage, and tell us to get all prickly when challenged on evidence. It took me a hell of a long time to get over needing to feel right in a debate. Took a while to care more about finding the truth, and being happy when getting proven wrong.

>far to often today thats not the case! Free speech is under attack and anybody who disagrees with you is your personal and moral enemy!

At least we've evolved to do it in flamewars instead of jailing and murdering them! :D

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	At least we've evolved to do it in flamewars instead of jailing and murdering them! :D

thank whatever powers that be you hold dear including holy science for that! I would really hate liveing in one of the places were they still DO that.

TheAtomicDog

6 years, 8 months ago

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Sex = male, female, assigned to living things
Gender= grammer that applies sexual connotation to nouns
Sorry, but this is an old thorn in my side. There are three sexes (including hermaphrodites, where are a RL thing), but we'll just keep it at two for here. Gramatically, things that refer to a sex is "gender". Sailors don't assign a sex to their vessels, for example, but a gender, when they refer to it as "she" or "her". Many languages such as German and those of the Golden Triangle assign up to one of three genders to their nouns.
if we're talking about people, it should be "sex". Male sex and female sex (and again those wild-ass herms). My sex is male.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ TheAtomicDog

no your Sex is David Bowie =p

TheAtomicDog

6 years, 8 months ago

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And when was David Bowie's sex ever in any doubt..?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKLTP04JGc8

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ TheAtomicDog

XD thats fantastic!

but seriously the goblin king transcends all =p he is holding court in the castle, beyond the goblin city now, we should all be so lucky as to earn an audience.

Delquea

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

But think of the children, the children who are forced to believe a religion despite being too young to ask that no one bats an eye at cos religion is fine and the children touched by adults who weren't harmed LOL

sorry these arguments are hilarious XD

And to people who gonna get triggered by my comments. I see biological genders as two things and just that. Now if a woman wanna be a man and a man wanna be a woman. I really don't care. Just don't claim you're some creature science can't explain and you're safe from my reticle .

DrReverb

6 years, 8 months ago

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So much commotion in the comment section, but glad you're not afraid to speak the truth. The 'more than two genders' nonsense is out of control and appeasing it will only make it worse. Either people genuinely need help or they're begging for attention.

SilverJackal

6 years, 8 months ago

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When it comes to transgender people, studies have been done to see why they are the way they are. scientists have discovered that when it comes to transgender people, their brains are actually built like the brains of the opposite gender then they were born as. They belive this likely happens due to certain triggers while in the womb. When we first start out, all fetuses in the womb are female. However after a certian period, exposure to testosterone and estrogen mold us into the gender we are born as. When it comes to transgenders, its believed that during this milestone of fetal development that the body react to one chemical; but the developing brain is effected by the other. The end result can be, lets say, a baby being born as a boy, but the brain is exactly like that of a girl. This isnt the only case where gender and go askew in the womb. There is a very rare chance that a baby is born looking like a girl, but as puberty kicks in they grow a penis and become a boy. This rare condition happens because the boy fetus doesnt recieve enough testosterone to fully grow the needed parts, and those parts start growing at puberty when the body gets a boost of testosterone.

jurann

6 years, 8 months ago

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I don't get the whole trans thing. I've been trying for years and years to understand it, I truly have, but I'm just a plain bisexual white geek guy who is happily born male and living as male with no interest/desire/thoughts that I may be a woman or trapped in the wrong body. I love the body I'm in and enjoy sharing the experience of others' bodies regardless of what form they take or what the mind inside them thinks and feels about the body it inhabits.

I certainly have nothing against people who want to be on some spectrum of gender identity, but like you I seriously question a need to purport that everyone is somehow a part of the spectrum, akin to Kinseyism (e.g. Kinsey's belief that most people fall somewhere in the middle of the scale coined after his name and not at the ends of it as society typically believes). And again, I agree that trying to educate children on this topic in general is probably not a good idea, as you stated kids already have enough to deal with. As a one-off teaching aid for children who have trans people in their lives, it may help to understand better what's going on with/for that individual who has a specific case, but I wouldn't expect to see this kind of material in say a public school course.

I've noticed the whole gay thing came up as an analogy in some people's comments, and I have strong feelings about that as well. Because I don't think I was born gay or straight or bisexual, but I chose to be straight for some years, then chose to be gay and then realized that the type of bits my partners have isn't what arouses me either way. For me it was always a choice, it wasn't a pre-destined realization encoded into my genes or driven by environmental cues - it was personal exploration and realization that you can physically enjoy anyone whom you like, especially if they mutually enjoy you.

I understand the need for the "born gay" argument, as biological defenses are much stronger and more difficult to upend, however I don't think it applies to everyone who is gay or straight or bisexual. I think for many it is a choice and it's a choice that may change throughout the course of one's life. I admit genetics could play a role or change predilections, there's certainly significant circumstantial evidence of that in science, but I don't think it's the end-all and be-all of the argument.

How that relates to the trans argument I really don't see, but it's something that resonated with me when I saw people trying to make analogies to homosexuality both as a spectrum and as a civil rights development to the current debate over the trans phenomenon. Since I really don't get it in any way, I feel like I don't have much to contribute to the debate. I'm all for individual freedoms and hey I know tons of people who believe they are animals/dragons trapped in human bodies so how is the trans argument any more insane? As you say, live and let live until it becomes a cult-ish crusade to indoctrinate others into its modality - don't even get me started on religion and other such mental contagions...

TravisRetriever

6 years, 8 months ago

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My personal favorite are the SJWs saying, "biological sex is just a social construct." I wish I was making that up.

Farrel

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Okay, so largely I agree with what I percieve to be your argument on the idea that 'gender is a spectrum'. Yeah, for any one person, no it's not... and for the VAST majority it's just as simple as male / female ... done.

Sure, I think it's a good thing to teach kids that there is a very small minorty for whom medically that's not the case... And there are folks who struggle to come to terms with the body they're in... Whether that's a medical condition or a psychological one, I'm not qualified to say... But teaching kids that a little tollerance won't hurt strikes me as a good thing...

So, my question is twofold. Don't worry, there's no gotcha waiting on either of them.

1) In a hypothetical situation where we have the technology and resources to easily, cleanly and reversibly flip someone's physical gender to a functioning member of what they wished to be... Would you be against such a technology being used to help with the treatment of cases of gender dysphoria?

2) I recently noticed you have a UK fur tag on your FA page... If you're a UK Furry, any chance you're going to EF? It's always nice to have another badge to watch out for in the crowd :3 And who knows, maybe I'll put enough people together for a game of secret trump after all (Since I'm not sure if I could be arrested for bringing Secret Hitler to Germany)

Edited: Threefold -> Twofold and combined the last two questions ;)

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Farrel

1) No, not at all.

2) Nah, I can't afford to go to conventions XP.

Farrel

6 years, 8 months ago

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Well in that case...

1) I don't think the argument can be made that you're really transphobic in principle. It just appears to me that you don't agree on some of the current issues. (Not that this is saying much, really... But yeah.)

and

2) Darnit! I can only barely afford it :) Never mind. I'm sure we'll fill a table anyhow :)

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Farrel

I'm not transphobic, no. I'm an honest, reasonable person who tells the truth as I see it and see how people react to it. I'm not spreading hatred to a group of people who have an enormous degree of emotional baggage to deal with, that's something other people project onto me because their nonsense worldview took a blow and it might crumble entirely, the delusion might lift, unless they beat down and drown out that jarring voice of reason in the dark.

Farrel

6 years, 8 months ago

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Yeah, I think all I can really add to that is... You seem to be on a reasonable path to me. You've got an opinion, you're open to discussing it, I'm presuming you're open to the possibility that someone presenting a well made and adequately evidenced argument could potentially change your mind...

So yeah... If that's the case? Keep doing your thing and not letting people shout you down.

Zakurei

6 years, 8 months ago

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I don't think I have ever seen a clearer case of "the truth hurts" as much as I have seen in this post. Like who is this ACTUALLY offending. "OH NO, ROAREY CARES ABOUT THE PERCEPTIONS OF GENDER IN THE MINDS AND EYES OF CHILDREN WHO CAN MORE OR LESS LIKELY FORM THEIR OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS BY THE TIME IT MATTERS!!!" like really? this is your battle? You guys on IB need a lot more in your lives to go on than to debate whether the Male and Female need a character creation slider bar in between them. Gender Dysphoria by the definition of dysphoria is exactly a mental illness akin to depression. We aren't making depression a gender or sexuality, so why are we doing it to a form of it on the spectrum? Do you really want the future generation to pass on the shit show we are fighting for today? Do you REALLY want workplace applications to have check boxes that say "Male. Female. In between. or Other"? MAN this isn't even going to be the worst topic of your life and I am willing to be this topic ONLY affects a good .008% of you in here right now. I am not all about trying to make kids feel like they are born the wrong gender or growing into the wrong gender because they are taught that people who are dysphoric about their life and be PC around them. If YOU people can't consider the feelings of others around you on this subject why do we have to tiptoe around the .2% of the population who don't really have it all that bad?

wolfinforrest

6 years, 8 months ago

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This has made me laugh quite a bit. From the fact that Roary has posted this, here, on IB, to spark a flame in the furry community, to how wrong the facts are, to calling it down to Biology.

The world is changing, I'm sorry to tell this to everyone who wants to continue living in the present. But for all 15-25 Y/Os here who have an account on IB that has yet to be kids, but for the future that by the time your child is 8 Y/O this topic would have grown even more flavourful and curious to them.

These topics are growing in popularity because they are growing in size, in numbers. More homo- Bi- Trans- and more every day.

Why? Because the world is slowly growing more accepting. It may have taken 60 years, but the gay community is now accepted around most of the world. (I dare say give it 60 more and so will Transgender). Give it another 40 and most of the older, bigotry generation will be dead, giving it's reigns down to us of the younger generation. It will be down to us as to how the world will progress, and as I said, we are growing more accepting.

But it's not all down to our upbringing or our fetus development. The internet. Younger and younger children are using the internet. My 7 and 5 Y/O cousins BOTH use the internet as well as my 6 Y/O nephew. The internet has a huge influence on our children. (I'm looking at you, reader in your parent's house, in your bedroom, who's hiding their true age from us <.<)

But again, these are miniscule. Like it or not, a child, despite it being rare, from as young as 2 Y/O, will just not be happy and confused with how they feel, wanting to hang with the boys if a girl who wants to play football. Or a boy who wants to play house with the girls with dolls. Or other examples. These incidents do happen and with no triggers from drugs or exposure to material. Does Biology explain that?

Which brings me to my final point...

Can anyone stand here today and claim that Science can prove everything?

We, as intelligent beings, have accepted their are 3 things in our known universe that we may never understand. Those being: 1) The Sea. Deep and blue and we will never know it all. 2) Space. Even more deep and expansive than the sea. And lastly 3) The human brain.

We are who we are people. We walk in the shoes that are given to us. Be us "normal" or "abnormal" in the eyes of everyone and anyone, including Roary. Be us straight, gay, lesbian, pan, trans, male, female, demi, f-ing white or black or yellow. It all doesn't matter. But what we should do as a race of HUMAN beings is stop pointing the finger at each other and learn to just accept we're here and this is who we are.

Royal44

6 years, 8 months ago

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Ha ha! YES, lad!

CookieFoxBrandon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Haven't commented yet, but I agree with the general statement that the lbqt community has went too far in reaching into the delicate nature of children, if anything the community should learn to step off from the young impressionable minds and let the slow stark realization of children do it's work. Society has been on a drift towards acceptance of everyone for a long time now and only in the past 600 or so years has it readily sped up. Trying to teach kids about this stuff in a school setting is horrendous, especially in the United States, were most kids who have went through sex ed just got more confused.

Stumpycoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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I see that this has started a meme, with people changing the text to have the unicorn deliver other odd messages.

lucashoal

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Stumpycoon

*more correct messages

BrokenPupper

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm pretty sure the 2 users that actually look into science will not read this, but just in case they return even if for a final minute chuckle towards this circus act:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/22/3/1027.long

"Changes in these parameters could affect the development of gender identity but not immediately result in overt changes in the volume or neuronal number of the BSTc. Alternatively, it must also be taken into consideration that changes in BSTc volume in male-to-female transsexuals may be the result of a failure to develop a male-like gender identity. In summary, our finding of a sex difference in BSTc volume only in adulthood suggests that marked sex-dependent organizational changes in brain structure are not limited to early development but may extend into adulthood.”

The study is pretty much only says that the development of the brain structure may extend into adulthood. The faulty conclusion that Lawrence is drawing here is the assumption all trans people start their transition in the late 20s or later, but claim they knew they were a different sex than assigned to them at birth at a young age. She insists that this is impossible, because we don’t have a fully formed Neuroanatomy that represents this until later in life. She then makes some blatant assumptions about sexual orientation and the implication of the sexual identity aspects of our brain, because she believes trans individuals are at the heart individuals with a sexual fetish to believe they are the opposite sex. You can see that view thoroughly debunked by respectable scientists everywhere. More importantly, she is attempting to use a sample size of seven individuals to make sweeping generalizations about how anatomy works, even though one of the individuals does not fit her methodology. (She even mentions that within her notes). Her entire premise is that any time trans individuals have a neuroanatomy that reflects their identified gender as opposed to their sex assigned at birth, it had to be because of late stage hormone therapy. But, the original studies that are linked here accounted for that, because that’s an obvious thing to probably look for before you go making scientific conclusions.

In short, her criticism is written top-down, where she went in looking for answers and bent the information fit her model. There is a reason why scientists tend to draw similar conclusions based on peer reviewed work. That’s how science works, that’s how it is meant to work. Because when valid criticism arises, objectivity allows us to reexamine our understanding of the world and gives us an interest into conducting more studies. If there was validity to her criticisms, this would be the new norm. It’s obscure and only used as a weaponized attack on the authenticity of trans individuals, because it isn’t.

tkongingi

6 years, 8 months ago

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Fuck those 0.2% of people, right? They don't belong in humanity. We're better off just telling them they're wrong until they kill themselves. Mob rule is the arbiter of morality, we all know that worked so well for homosexuals in the past.*

*Or in the present where I live! Wanna come here? We have only two genders, and we also murder gay people daily for the crime of not fitting in our male box.

LeonWolf

6 years, 8 months ago

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I THINK!....That i'm going to stay out of this one.

itazuraayagi

6 years, 8 months ago

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Can you classify what "gender" entails in this context? Asking, because, "gender", as a terminology, can be classified as being synonymous with sex (biology/physiology), or as encapsulating the socially imposed stereotypes linked to the sexes, and therefore those who fall into neither or in-between (sociopsychology).

Furthermore, there are cases where even biologically, at the core, some individuals may have "extra" chromosomes, so to speak, which arguably put them between the two sexes. Similarly, there are those whose physiology may rest somewhere in-between; granted these are not utter commonalities, but they're not exactly "once in a blue moon" levels of rare either. Think along similar lines to the phrase "1 in 5 dentists" or whatnot for a generalized idea.

As such, I feel it's critical to clarify the intent of this message. As gender (sociopsychology) is actually a rather relatively recent thing, and is not linked to either sex directly (rather, the 'core' genders, if you will, are defined by the commonly presenting normalities in the sexes of their namesake, but which are also interchangeable between those who 'fall' into similar patterns and traits of the opposite sex). Granted, this is confusing, yes, as one could be tempted to make the argument that gender terminologies are therefore meaningless, but they do have purpose none the less within current society, allowing people to identify their generalized personality type separately from their physiology.

Beyond that, there are also those who have been made to feel uncomfortable with their bodies, so they've taken to transitioning to the other sex as far as some or most of their physiological traits, and to whom lead relatively normal, happy lives as a result. This may sometimes stem from the former sociopsychological linkage of the sexes to their common (but not definitive) traits, but other times it has to do with a more general discomfort with one's body as a whole.

To try and summarize, "transgender" itself is a wholly complex term, built upon complex, arguable oxymoronic, terms as part of a system of generalizing the human race for easy identification.

It is awful that the transgender people you know have gone through so much hell, but one need to look at the greater issues as to why. In many communities and locations, transgenderism as a whole is still widely unaccepted; those who are transgender suffer new hardships, where previously they were told that they did not conform to the commonalities of their 'sex' and therefor wrong, they now suffer being told that they are not truly who they say in turn, that they still do not conform and are therefor abominations. Elsewhere, there is quite possibly a minor subset of individuals who were poorly informed, who did not conform to a gender (sociopsychology), and to which their view on society resulted in the idea that they must be transgender in order to feel comfortable, forgoing alternative concepts such as gender non-binary, gender non-conforming, agender, and the like (all also sociopsychological).

As such, I think I get what you're saying, to a point. We need to allow children to grow and develop naturally, without trying to complicate their identity with complex information that we ourselves as people may not fully understand.

However, I feel that most definitely goes both ways; telling a little boy he can't play dress-up or a girl she cant own a GI Joe is the same as as assuming that because they are, based on what you say, they should be transitioned from an early age.

All things aside, I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm not trying to be correcting or tell you you're an awful person. But I worry that you yourself either are having difficult in choice of words (something I can understand; complex ideas cannot be explained in simple statements), or do not fully understand the gender situation (physiology vs sociopsychology)

itazuraayagi

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ itazuraayagi

As a sidenote, I take greater issue with the unicorn itself, the implication that non-conforming individuals are "unicorns", rare and magical. They're everyday people, and deserve to be treated as such. The whole argument for equality is that they are an ever more common, even if smaller (relative to society as a whole), part of society and deserve to be treated the same as everyone else. A unicorn feels like it's missing the point.

bobbington

6 years, 8 months ago

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While I support inclusiveness at any age, I agree that the push to give children the right to make life-altering decisions about their body while also treating them as too immature for any other decisions is wrong. For the sake of stability and ease of upbringing, I believe conflating Gender and Sex in children is fine, as long as they are able to freely learn about alternatives when they are mature enough. We teach simplified versions of all kinds of subjects, gender studies doesn't need to be any different.

That said, I'd like to refute "only 2 genders". Barring the myriad medical disorders that can cause atypical sexual characteristics, there are indeed only 2 biological sexes. Gender however is a social construct that is different from culture to culture. In some cultures, Xs have a bunch of (western traditionally) masculine traits, and Ys have feminine traits. In other cultures, there are gender roles entirely outside of male and female.

As for actual transitioning and such: I believe that humans have the right to modify their body in any way they see fit, as well as portray themselves as anything they want regardless of chromosome, and our current extreme binary regarding gender roles isn't healthy for even the binary folks, much less the minority.

Body Dysmorphic Disorder is real, and there is no denying that it is outside of what we consider "normal". The problem with treating it like any other mental disorder is that when it is in regards to Sex/Gender, it is an intrinsic part of a person's self image and can do more harm than good when trying to "cure" it. If someone genuinely feels they are in the "wrong" body, then they have the right to take any (legal) action they wish to treat their Dysmorphia. If transitioning to another Sex or Gender is enough to no longer be Dysmorphic, then they have successfully treated it and can continue their lives as they are.

Veliaf

6 years, 8 months ago

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Eh, I agree to this with certain degree in-terms of brainwashing children about gender identities and sexual identity. Kids should make themselves unique by their actions and words, not through special names and 'identities'. It's very easy to make kids think they are special as they are born from the start, and thus become bratty, and demanding people. If they wanna be trans later on with their life, through their own decision? Sure, am not one to judge that, and it's their own adult decision.

moyomongoose

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Just a suggestion...There are some topics that would probably cause less drama if they were incorporated into a story with viewpoints expressed through the actions of the characters in the story than if they were presented as an outright statement.

The motion picture industry does that with almost every movie they produce. Almost every motion picture production has one or more messeges that often deal with political, social and religious issues that make it a good story, which if were expressed in the form of an advertisment would would stir up outrage.
Classic examples are;
The 1977 TV series and movie, Roots...addresses the issue of slavery and discrinination
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF4ov7H8HKE

The story, Christmas Carrol...Has valuable lessons about greed, selfishness and cold heartedness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONM0J_ExqvI

An this one from 1967, The Incident. There are alot of lessons about the dark and foolish side of human nature in that one   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH24v-Q9r8Q

The same thing can be accomplished in the form of a literary work as well.

nelson88

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ moyomongoose

Excellent point of view,moyo!^^

moyomongoose

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

@ nelson88

Thanks.
The movie that last link is to, The Incident, is a really hard hitting movie. Most of the characters who boarded a New York subway thought they were tough until two street thugs boarded, jammed the only working door shut on that car, and began bullying them. There were enough passengers to easily overporew the two thugs, but each person was too scared to do anything. Finally, a young mild manered army private from Oklahoma beats up the two thugs and receives no help from his army friend who is with him, and who is much bigger.

nelson88

6 years, 8 months ago

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This world in which we all live is full of controversies!And without them there would be no debates!^^

moyomongoose

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ nelson88

Very well said.

Furry Version of Smiley Face by moyomongoose

nelson88

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ moyomongoose

X3333

travis181

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm not against transgender kids, I say let them be who they are, but please don't put Roarey down foe his beliefs.

Charliemon

6 years, 8 months ago

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The main thing i take from this cute pic is.. people are cra cra (crazy) and if you try tell them something that they don't think or believe.. then you must be a bad person. then the cra cra people go even more cra cra and yea we have a group of cra cra

Drevas

6 years, 8 months ago

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Hah, this is what people were getting butthurt about?

travis181

6 years, 8 months ago

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The artist has his right to post and say what he thinks, don't be mad at him for his opinions and for god sake leave him alone.

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ travis181

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YaRvbQSjrk

AphroditeDraco

6 years, 8 months ago

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While I disagree with the mental illness part (the available evidence shows that it's actually not one and that the single psychiatrist who says it is one is a laughing stock) as well as the thought that there's no stigma for being labeled as such (I have the misfortune of being labeled mentally ill in a country where it most definitely does carry a stigma), I do agree that there are only two genders, male and female. This is because "gender," contrary to what Kaitlyn Jenner and others of her ilk like to claim, is between the legs, and not between the ears. Gender roles are between the ears, i.e. "boys only like playing contact sports and can't play with Barbie Dolls" or "girls are all pretty pretty princesses who only like the color pink." Gender roles are social constructs. Gender, on the other hand, is synonymous with a person's sex.

Unfortunately, much of our present day discourse has replaced "Gender Roles" with "Gender" and therein lies much of the confusion.

And finally, a quick note about the hate: I may disagree with you but you have every right to speak your mind. Disagreeing with a majority does not give that majority the right to try to ruin your life.

Fapparty

6 years, 8 months ago

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Lol, I wondered if anyone even looked at the link? It's got a fucking unicorn with dumb cutesy art and graphics looking like it's aimed at preschoolers though it's discussing physical attractiveness to other kids. Who in the hell thinks talking to a five year old about what type of "sex" gives them a boner is appropriate or even feasible? You can believe whatever you want but can't we at least agree that middle school or later, when kids are actually hitting puberty and being bullied for this shit, is a more appropriate time to discuss this?

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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What about the Otherkin Otter!!! they get no love? Why aren't we teaching our kids, if they feel like a monkey YOU ARE A MONKEY! XD (in humor)

Kepora

6 years, 8 months ago

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Honestly, man? Thank you for actually having the guts to come out and say it.

CodyFox

6 years, 8 months ago

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I only have a couple comments.

The first is really more of a question, which is why? By that, I mean what is the end game here. Usually when someone puts forth a controversial politicized opinion, it's because they are hoping to convince people of something. But you've already said that you have no intention of convincing anyone of anything. So like I said, I just wonder what the end game is here. Are you planning to put forth legislation in your locality to prevent education on trans issues to kids? Are you creating a political action group focused on this issue? Are you organizing a get out the vote program? What is the plan here? You said you just posted something to your page, but you know very well that you have a lot of followers who would see it. It's not like it's just a small message board with a dozen of your best friends. You knew a few thousand people would see it. So what was the thought process here? Without some obvious goal, it appears more like provocateur activity. Create a big controversy and get people all riled up for what, entertainment? This is my main criticism of posts like this. It's rarely ever about creating dialogue. Usually it's about causing and being in the middle of a huge storm of animosity and insults flying in all directions. I don't understand the purpose behind it.

My second comment is that "truth" and opinion are almost never the same thing, especially when politics are involved.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ CodyFox

A fair question, there is no end game. I want to tell the truth as I see it, then see what happens.

jon4545

6 years, 8 months ago

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I like what you say and agree that the unicorn is to much for children, i however dont believe we should ditch the unicorn all together or rather not ditch the idea behind it. Right now its relatable only to kids under ten maybe 11 and twelve if we push it and thats wrong and confusing so my proposal would be to age it to a better suited demographic of 14 and up as alot of the gender identity stuff really starts out there as people start 9th grade and get into highschool. My proposal for a new unicorn would be a teenager of somekind maybe put some shades on him make him less cute and alittle more lenky. ((This may be to 90's edge) get them a leather jacket to go with the shades and have his hands in his pockets

Lucafox

6 years, 8 months ago

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How dare you share an opinion that I disagree with! On your own page where I could easily just ignore it of all places!

moyomongoose

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Lucafox

https://youtu.be/Ew01FGfOZdE?t=31

MarquisVulpes

6 years, 8 months ago

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Reporting you to the thought police for posting this unacceptable, intolerant, offensive, oppressive, cis/hetero-normative, homophobic, transphobic, islamophobic, imperialist, ethno-centric, white-washing, misogynistic, sexist, ableist, alt-right propaganda. It triggers me and forces me to retreat to my university safe-space. How dare you? Posting scientific fact when all that matters is my feelings? I sexually identify as a proud Apache Attack Helicopter. My pronouns are: America, fuck, & YEAH!!! This bigoted work of "art" denies me my lived experience and is a form of physical violence upon my person.

I hope they send you to the gulag for this transgression.

#apacheattackhelicoperlivesmatter, #endfascism, #smashpatriarchy, #deathtotraditionalgenderroles

Alondite

6 years, 8 months ago

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Agh! Why can't I like/favourite comments on Inkbunny!! >~<

MarquisVulpes

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Alondite

^_^

Woofstep

6 years, 8 months ago

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God your comment was poetry in motion :"D

elderflowerpudding

6 years, 8 months ago

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👍

moyomongoose

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner