Inkbunny

... dude. Really?

Firerush

2 months, 1 week ago

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I don't know about the mood of the site either other than what I tell you. I just log on, check my messages and don't explore everything. I don't go looking for stuff to get me depressed

Firerush

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Firerush

What you tell me I mean, damn typo

bronyparty15

2 months, 1 week ago

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Yes I'm being serious, I haven't seen really any of that, I just check submissions from artist I follow and stuff I don't really see anything outside of that or journals, so I'm seriously asking because I want to know

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Well that's why I'm confused because plenty of it has been in my journals.

bronyparty15

2 months, 1 week ago

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well sounds like you are just following bad people

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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... Dude.

You have not been paying attention and that was extremely ignorant and condescending. You are 0.1 seconds from pissing me off.

MaDrow

2 months ago

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"	CookieSkoon wrote:
	... Dude. You have not been paying attention and that was extremely ignorant and condescending. You are 0.1 seconds from pissing me off.

Well, talking about a hot temper.... ||=(:l

People who follow you are not that required to read your journals with their comments.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ MaDrow

You can't just tell anybody who gets angry they have a hot temper. That's just poorly thought out behavior.

I had every right to be upset at this person, and you lack the context to be making the layered assumptions you are making.

You don't know me from Adam and vice-versa.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Bad people come into Cookie's space and harass her. She deletes their comments usually, as is site policy for self moderation, if the comment is bad enough that it is warranted. It isn't about her 'following bad people', so much as bad people stalk her.

MaDrow

2 months ago

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...She could make those journals Friend-Only or turn commenting off ||=(:v

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ MaDrow

You go bye now.

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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@ MaDrow

"I am being harassed and told to hurt myself, therefore I should never post publicly ever again!" That is your flawed logic.

Gelemar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Are you like new to Cookie's space or something ? She's been getting harassed for months now, and even outside of that there plenty of artists that make journals or art praising horrid shit happening to trans and other minorities. I won't make any of them cause I don't want to give them the satisfaction of any notoriety, but they're certainly around.

Lunamann

2 months, 1 week ago

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Well, now you only have to scroll down in this very journal's comments, for Green to serve up the exact proof you're looking for on a silver platter.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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Yeah, GreenReaper is said to be a transphobe.  It'd be nice if a better person bought the site. XP  I'm not sure about the rest of the staff.  Jeffy, Telain, and Juno seem nice.

I wouldn't say Kadm is a good person, though.  At least based on what I've been told by someone who knew him well. >_>

They nuked that Pierce/IBp guy, though I guess more because he was the most disruptive out of the alt-right members of the site.  (He hated people disagreeing with him, like holy shit.)

The staff mandate, I guess you'd call it, put forth by GreenReaper is explicitly against the Inkbunny Philosophy, if I'm being honest.  He'll say that the staff won't do anything about transphobes, Nazis, harassment, etc. because users have the ability to block others and delete comments on their stuff.

The Inkbunny Philosophy states:

No one has the right to harass anyone for their tastes or the content of artwork they post on Inkbunny. Inkbunny encourages a community where people of all artistic interests can co-exist, focused on furry art and fiction. The community attitude is one of acceptance of the widest possible range of views and ideas, as long as they do not encourage hate and intolerance.

Yet GreenReaper and his staff allow harassment (because you're able to block people) and he doesn't give a fuck about acceptance. Also, "as long as they do not encourage hate and intolerance" is another key part which GreenReaper shits on. RoaryRaccoon encourages hate and intolerance, yet he's still on the site (and apparently someone GreenReaper is a fan of).

So despite the stated philosophy of an accepting and tolerant website, GreenReaper stands idly by while hate and bigotry is spewed. He hides behind the idea that users can block and delete the hate on their accounts. But does nothing to stop the general spread of hate and intolerance on the site.

I guess maybe he can claim it's acceptance and tolerance of art, not of the humans behind the accounts, but that's really fucked if you ask me.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Pierce needed to be disciplined because of things happening in the background. He was trying to undermine admins, not just Kadm, for Roarey's ban, and trying to disrupt them. You can harass other users, but you cannot harass the admins, that kind of thing... Just correcting you on that part.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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Well, that makes it even worse.  So the hate and bigotry he spewed, trying to use the site to launch a harassment campaign against a common GamerGate target (I guess all you have to say is "Don't harass" and you're free), and all that other bullshit was deemed acceptable use of the site by GreenReaper.  But don't you dare try to harass the staff.  They're sacred.

"You're getting harassed?  Well, that's all on you to fix.  Oh, we're getting harassed?  Ban the fucker!"

Why was Roary suspended, then?  I doubt it was for his anti-trans posts.  GreenReaper loved those, from what I remember.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

He wasn't trimming the vitriol and harassment baiting in his own comments sections, including hate speech and violent rhetoric. They got him on a technicality. But there were likely other reasons even I'm not aware of, so... *shrug* It took 10 years before he got a 3 month ban. They REALLY do not like banning people like that.

Btw, Tay Ferret got disciplined (not banned) for not removing transphobic and hateful comments from his own art comment sections before too. So self moderating is part of the whole 'We don't moderate harassment' part too.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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That's still surprising, because I remember reading that GreenReaper would go into Roary's anti-trans posts and comment in agreement with the sentiment. So him getting suspended for not deleting hate and vitriol sounds odd, given that GR apparently agrees with it.

Or maybe it's just that you're not supposed to say the quiet parts out loud. Or not too loudly, rather.

Unless other staff made the decision and GreenReaper reluctantly agreed.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Likely the reluctantly agreed part. Same for the MAP ban, green wasn't on board with that because of 'freedom of expression', and you can have 'fictional MAP situations', but it was required to start squashing the people who are trying to meet up to trade illicit RL porn.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Kadm was genuinely kicking transphobes off the site. Including more than one on my behalf.

Green seems to be completely untrustworthy, elusive, and inconsistent as a person. There's absolutely a dark shadow behind Inkbunny, if you know what I mean.

I'm just at my limit, honestly. This place is on its way to becoming the Nazi bar of furry and I'm just done.

It's sad, because for years I sung the site's praises.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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Huh. Kadm did some good, I guess. Surprising.

But yeah, GreenReaper is not a good person and his policies on how to handle the site are antithetical to the philosophy the site claims to stand for. I wish Starling never sold the site to him. I think Starling, specifically, would be ashamed of what GreenReaper has allowed to happen to this community.

Part of me wants to tag him, but I'm sure he'll read this anyway.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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I changed my mind on Kadm.

I won't go into detail why but yeah, no, they ruined their reputation with me in less than an hour.

Gelemar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Wait Reaper is a fan of Roary? Well that's all I need to know, that guy is a genuine piece of human filth

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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It doesn't look like he watches Roary, so maybe not a fan. But I remember reading that he popped into some of Roary's posts to defend transphobic comments. Or at the very least to refuse to do anything about them.

Gelemar

2 months, 1 week ago

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That's a little better but it's still pretty shit on his part. He should be protecting people on his site not openly supporting horrid shit slung toward them

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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Yeah. His excuse for not doing anything has always been that users can delete comments on their own posts, and they can block people.

But for trans folk to see anti-trans submissions and journals being posted, and for the site owner to defend the presence of those posts on the site, makes the site look extremely unwelcoming at best, and openly hostile at worst. Which, again, is antithetical to the stated Inkbunny Philosophy of a safe and accepting community. Why he apparently can't see that is beyond me.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

For the record, the word "safe" is not in the Inkbunny Philosophy. "Acceptance" is, but it focuses on accepting that other people may have different artistic tastes to you and they may post content that you may disagree with. It is followed by "Deal With It" which says what to do if you don't like what you see, and the means we promote to enable that e.g. keywords.

To be honest, I'm not sure the Philosophy was ever designed to police "political" speech; the "hate and intolerance" it refers to at the end dates back to 2010 and may simply reflect the crackdown that was occurring in furry fandom against cub (Inkbunny was after all made around the time Softpaw was thrown out of multiple furry conventions, as well as FA), or fetishes more broadly (e.g. balloonies at ArtSpots). And it cuts both ways - "I don't feel safe when I read your views so you have to go" is not, to me, a tolerant position, as compared to, say, "one day, I will have sex with you!" - though I know we can't all be George Takei.

What I find most frustrating in this and several other political topics is that there is very little acceptance in the (US-led) fandom of more moderate positions, e.g. "we should grant trans rights, as long as they come with trans responsibilities" - whatever that entails (perhaps wearing weights when competing in sports?). People are forced to pick a side or risk being denounced by both extremes.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Wearing weights while competing in sports...

Do you know what hormone therapy does to a body? Obviously not. I do because I'm on it and I have been for three years now.

Shut the fuck up, Green. Seriously, shut the fuck up. You're transphobic. You're not a moderate, you're not the good guy here- you're just a fuckin' transphobe and you like enabling it.

You even suggest in this post that trans rights is an "extreme" without concessions based on right wing fear mongering.

Do better. God damn.

StandoCat

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

>taking the moral high ground
>on inkbunny.net
you sound fucking unhinged goddamn

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ StandoCat

You - "Cookie is unhinged because this is website"

The 60+ other people I have heard from in the last two days - "Hell yes, fight the good fight."

I'm not convinced by your ever so thoughtful argument.

neitsuke

2 months ago

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@ StandoCat

I do believe those people are mad due to losing a ton of support over the years for all the crap that has been exposed by themselves over time
Ironically that includes the classic bigoteering game the moment they hear something they don't want to

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ neitsuke

Clarify.

neitsuke

2 months ago

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Been doing that for over 10 years. You guys do not want to listen because you are not striving for the truth, but for what feels right to you. I'm not going to spend my time when I know all I'm going to receive are a bunch of ad hocs, irrelevant retorts and blatant lies as it's already the case here reading the responses

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ neitsuke

Ah, you're an idiot.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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Yeah, and the site was made by Jery Softpaw, aka Starling, whose partner was/is a member of the trans community.  I highly doubt he would have used a term like "acceptance" and make it only about art and not about the LGBTQ community.

You claim not to be anti-trans, but you're using their arguments, their defenses, you're talking like them, using their whataboutism, and you're defending what you consider their "right" to spout their hatred and vitriol and make Inkbunny a hostile place for targeted minority groups.  That sure as fuck doesn't make you sound like a neutral/centrist party.

Seeing you in here vehemently defending the ability for people to use this site to spout bigotry, your sob story about being a target of so-called "bigotry" yourself (which Norithics very easily shredded), and your dogged refusal to shift your opinion even an inch when faced with people calling out the glaring issues with your logic, make me think you're simply unfit to guide the policy of the site.  The site needs someone who is actually willing to listen.  Someone who actually cares about marginalized groups.  Groups that are the target of bigotry.  And especially someone who understands what bigotry and privilege actually are.

AmeyBoop

2 months, 1 week ago

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"Trans responsibilities" is ridiculous. What cis responsibilities are there? Requiring trans people to do anything cis people don't have to do is frankly absurd and literally just sexism.

You did more in this response to sour my opinion of you and this site than silence would have.

ClaireHaschen

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Why the fuck is it always "trans sports" this and "trans bathrooms" that? Really fucking exhausting. It's so fucking exhausting to have to talk about these two stupid fucking topics all the time, like it's all we ever are allowed to talk about. I'm tired of it.

I'm tired of people presuming, by default, that trans people are sexual predators who'd, quote, "follow little girls into the bathroom" (which Amey and I had to push back against twice in the same goddamn week). I'm tired of arguing about sports, a topic that I, and a lot of other trans people from my experience, don't fucking care about.

You're the owner of the site, act like it instead of boo-hooing because a trans person told you off once. "An extreme" my ass.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ ClaireHaschen

Statistically and by percentile, a cis man is more likely to go into a woman's rest room to rape a woman than a trans person. Most trans women have problems with arousal to begin with due to the HRT. If a man wants to dress as a woman to sneak into a woman's rest room, they don't need to go through years of therapy, HRT that destroys the body and sex drive, and so on to do it...

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ ClaireHaschen

"I'm tired of arguing about sports, a topic that I, and a lot of other trans people from my experience, don't fucking care about."

Gods this is such a mood...

nickthemoonwolf

2 months, 1 week ago

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really telling on yourself with this one. If there was any doubt left it's gone now.

RunawayDanish

2 months ago

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Man I don't want to be involved in this conversation at all, but here's the gist:

The demographic data on comorbid, life-shortening, quality of life damaging chronic illness in regards to Transgender people has roughly 40 years of history behind it. In the US, the American Psychological Association has seen the removal of disease classification for Transgender Identity because our understanding has shifted. This follows several things thought to be diseases, such as attraction to same-sex partners, and with more understanding and research, a lot has come through which deserves to be understood as distinct, measurable, common disadvantages.

No one commits suicide in the US at the rate of Transgender people excepting Native Americans. The clinical data are pretty clear: anomalies are common in sex hormone response in the body, sex-assignment at birth has a shocking tendency to be incorrect and done to 'fix' ambiguous genitals caused by intersex conditions, and there are legitimate anomalies caused by epigenetics which are increasingly understood to correlate with neurodivergence, queer identities, and intersexing.

We've known for at least 20 years now that transgender people have a number of disadvantages stacked against them, and even more shocking, we've known for about 10 years that microplastics have been accumulating more and more in humans with little definitive proof those microplastics are safe for us. Even now, literature about sex hormone and gonad anomalies are continuing to crop up, I even saw a study recently that linked microplastics found in the grey matter of deceased humans' brains with dementia.

There are factors well and truly outside of the control of transgender people which warrants substantial assistance, and very little data that demonstrate transgender athletes have any substantial advantages in sports. This idea of assigning extra "responsibilities" beyond what is already present for normal people is not just absurd, it is utterly inane and puts unnecessary burden and emphasis on a group of people who represent under a full percentage point of the US's population.

Even if we hallucinate some grand threat to culture, contemporary western history shows that gender dynamics change all the freaking time! No one who is proposing anti-transgender support legislation has made an actually data-validated argument about the cost to our societies by removing intersex and transgender medical support. As it turns out, transgender people are very helpful for helping us discover crazy things like how some men are in fact born with a fully functional penis and yet somehow their gonads are ovaries, and they have a partially formed uterus kicking around in their abdomen.

Like, if you can't see how that sort of case study is very important for western medicine, you really need to catch up.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ RunawayDanish

I wish I could "like" this, because thank you.

RunawayDanish

2 months ago

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Cheers, it is appreciated.

TheSmilingPony

2 months ago

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For the record, you are an enormous piece of shit, no one will ever mourn you.

NightWolf714

2 months ago

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I don't know about the subtext or past discussions that seem to have been going on. But this bit here:

"...And it cuts both ways - "I don't feel safe when I read your views so you have to go" is not, to me, a tolerant position, as compared to, say, "one day, I will have sex with you!" - though I know we can't all be George Takei...."

Struck me a bit. There's such a thing as the intolerance paradox. A common idea is a bar that allows a patron who is a nazi or part of the KKK or what-have-you becomes a nazi bar/KKK bar/etc.

Some opinions are, by their nature, unsafe and have caused harm. This is an unfortunate reality. There are, of course, some things that need to be just blocked and ignored. Things like the old pineapple on pizza debate. But some times do need to be addressed.

Dakisuke

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

I think it’s for the best that you don’t say anything about certain topics at all, because while not everyone agrees with you, it’s really making some of us mad.

sleepytoy

1 month, 4 weeks ago

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i ask this with all of the love and patience in my heart, what are "trans responsabilities"?

CookieSkoon

1 month, 4 weeks ago

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@ sleepytoy

A dog whistle phrase and nothing more.

Chatin

2 months, 1 week ago

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Well I guess I'm glad I was turned down for a staff position... lmao...

Another good site ruined.

Firerush

2 months, 1 week ago

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didn't know you had an FA, guess I'll follow you there. Not looking to add another art site to my rotation

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Firerush

https://www.furaffinity.net/user/skoon/ So you can find her quickly. ^^

Firerush

2 months, 1 week ago

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thanks

NeoPatamonX

2 months, 1 week ago

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Good on you for having the conviction. I've been debating similar action over recent AI discourse. I should probably take this into account as well.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ NeoPatamonX

I am principled to my own detriment.

NeoPatamonX

2 months, 1 week ago

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I'm sorry for the detriment, but I'm with you. I'm going to be joining you on this move too.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ NeoPatamonX

I do appreciate that. <3

NeoPatamonX

2 months, 1 week ago

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I appreciate you bringing this to my attention. I don't usually pick up on these kinds of issues, though I've had my run in with the IB admins lately and I wasn't impressed.

But this... this is just... no, this is just awful

nyasukitty

2 months, 1 week ago

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Happens to me a lot too. I just have to open my big mouth.

Gelemar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Dammit that sucks to hear... I've been slowly building up a presence here because FA sucks so bad... And now this? Is there no actually good furry space? 😫
I could've sworn I was followed by you on FA but it looks like O wasn't... I remedied that.

Gelemar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Also I hope you've been doing as okay as you can be, puppy. I know shit sucks more than I could ever say, and I'm sorry I haven't been around, but I want you to know I still think of you every say

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Yeah FA has my ire in more than one way...

But at least they are STILL pro LGBTQ and willing to mean it. Which is what furry always was, and always should be.

I hate how pedo-hysterical FA is. I hate how FA refuses to keep itself relevant and how it treats itself like a business front now; but it is still a place where transphobes get blocked and mass ridiculed as they should.

The tolerance paradox negates libertarian dumbassery.

As for me doing okay? I am trying...

Gelemar

2 months, 1 week ago

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That's very true, although some of their stuff is ridiculous (like categorizing everything tiny as cub), I can't recall ever really seeing rampant hate speech.
And I'm so sorry that things are still really grim and you're not feeling much positivity... I followed you over on FA and Bluesky, you can always reach out to me at those places if you ever need someone to talk to, dear.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

It's really sad when FA has a higher moral standing than IB.

It was always supposed to be the opposite, and for a while it was. I'd ask what happened, but we all know...

Gelemar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Right? I'm almost flabbergasted we've reached this point in the furry community...

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Oh, Gel... me too...

ClaireHaschen

2 months, 1 week ago

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Stay safe wherever you go.

Hopefully the site gets better in the future. It fucking sucks sometimes. I'm also tired of people just being unempathic to trans people and, well, honestly anyone anymore who isn't the biggest fascists ever (aka the people who shouldn't have anyone's empathy). Fucking frustrating.

DireKyre

2 months, 1 week ago

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That's fair. Honestly I keep running into really gross people with really gross opinions on here and if it weren't for people I'm legitimately connected to in a personal way I'd probably stop bothering as well. I can't post here anyway so there's a much weaker tether than most places I frequent.

Teko

2 months, 1 week ago

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I think it's more accurate to say that the site owners are intensely libertarian, as in they allow content that you wouldn't expect any furry site to accept, under the ethos of "if it's not actively harming someone, we'll consider it personal expression". I've reported several Nazi images that they've allowed, for example.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Teko

Sounds like someone needs to explain the "Nazi bar" story to GreenReaper.

Honestly, Inkbunny is extremely lucky they're the only game in town as far as gallery-style sites that allow cub porn. Because if there was a viable alternative, I know many people who would ditch this place immediately.

Someone desperately needs to make an alternative site so we can let this place rot as the Nazi Bar it's become.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I've heard it many times, but bars don't tend to have artist and keyword-based blocking.

What you do not seem to get (despite coming so close in your second paragraph) is that plenty of people feel the same way about cub. Indeed, if we were to go with forbidding content based on how many people dislike it, it would be the third topic to go after scat and diapers.

The reason we do not block it is not because Inkbunny was made for cub porn, but because it is a) for adult furry fans, and b) supports freedom of expression. That's why I took on the site in the first place, and largely pay for it today. For you to post freely, but not just you.

You are welcome to run your own site according to your own preferences, although you may find it is less fun than you imagine.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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The blocking is very thin curtain to hide behind. Either you host hatred or you don't.

I have people blocked who then get into long dead accounts to skirt those blocks to hassle me again anyway. People I have blocked can still follow me, which is very uncomfortable.

The general consensus from staff seems to be that simply being openly trans or anti maga means we deserve the hassling.

Bottom line is- you either host hate or you don't.

Bars may not give people the ability to block other patrons, but people can stop going to that bar. People can stop using IB. Until it's just the Nazis. Just like the bar.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

If people are evading a block using another account to contact you then that is something you can legitimately file a ticket over and we will investigate. We don't support evading the technical means provided to control your Inkbunny experience.

More generally, you are welcome to use or not use Inkbunny as you like; it will not result in a change in site policies, or how they are interpreted and applied.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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I do not believe I ordered a canned reply, but thank you for the offer.

Sangie

2 months ago

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Your website shouldnt host people that go after others based on their identities. That can put you in legal trouble.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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Interesting that you chose to respond to this comment and not the one about your policy of "freedom of expression" flies in the face of the Inkbunny Philosophy.

You cannot claim to offer an "accepting" and "tolerant" place while also allowing bigotry and Nazism to be posted. People don't feel safe and they don't feel welcome here, but they have no alternative, and you're not doing shit about it. Why? Why not just delete the Inkbunny Philosophy, because you neither enforce it nor believe in it.

Stop being a fucking coward and hiding behind the same empty statements every time someone brings up this issue. Either admit that you don't care if this site has an issue with bigotry, or do something to clean its image. There's a difference between people wanting to remove cub because it's "icky" and people wanting to remove bigotry because it threatens their lives and their existence. And fuck you for trying to equate those things.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Well I was in the middle of removing real-life CSAM from the site and also onboarding five new community moderators, and right now I'm in a moderation discussion about how the AI policies apply to commercial artist collective keywords, so forgive me if I don't get to everything, at least not right away. 😼

In brief, no, I don't like that bit, in large part because the people who get so hot and bothered about what they feel is 'hate' tend to themselves fail the 'intolerance' part. As I myself have experienced in the past. But people also throw up their arms when I suggest editing that to remove it, too, so there it remains.

We have removed the equivalent of "I think X deserves to have acid thrown on them" - frankly, I don't think that's much of a loss. I am less enamoured of the idea of removing furry art that happens to be used to express controversial topics.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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You argue in "what abouts". I won't address this thing because other group has members who have also done X.

It smacks of false equivalency, dodging, conflation, even heading in the direction of straw-manning and respectability politics.

I know you are smarter than that and unfortunately so am I. You surely have heard of the tolerance paradox, yes? Freedom of expression is not boundless, because there exist schools of thought who would seek to destroy and eat the entire thing, and their tactics are sinister. Freedom of expression and speech, ironically, does require regulation to remain free.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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At the end of the day, when one group of furry artists says "either these other artists go or I do" then my answer has been, and will continue to be, "good luck wherever you end up!" To me, the problem is not the debate, but the desire to exclude it.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I don't know where you've been but the debate has come and gone and concluded already- we're post debate. You're moving the goal post on the victim and just don't want to admit it.

Likewise, there's NO debating with people who are okay with a Nazi salute.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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So, basically the tolerance paradox. A truly tolerant society or space cannot tolerate intolerance.

But, are you saying people are incorrectly labeling things as bigotry and hate? Or are you trying to say that intolerance of intolerance is itself a violation of the philosophy of having a tolerant space? Because it kind of sounds like you're saying the latter.

And are you saying you don't want to provide a safe and accepting place for people, or are you just saying you don't want to claim to provide such a space?

(Also, if you're too busy to comment on everything, maybe don't start to comment at all until you have the time.)

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I'm saying there are bigots on pretty much all sides of any particular political or social position you wish to name, and giving them the power to exclude the arguments of others is not something I wish to support except in the most extreme cases. Moreover, where we verge on such a case we would normally seek to moderate the expression (as done in the case involving purple unicorns, with changes related to a tweak of the wording) and the resulting discussion, rather than forbid it entirely or exclude the member concerned from the site.

In my view, that's part of the difference between a 13+ site - say, FA or DA - and an entirely 18+ site - it's not just that we have porn, but that some work deals with real-word, contentious topics.

We are expected - by law, now - to protect adults' freedom of expression, along with other factors. That doesn't extend to incitement to violence, but it does include "not only the inoffensive but the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative". We try to give you control over whether you experience such expression, but that doesn't extend to controlling whether others get to experience it.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Frankly, you are either playing dumb or you really don't get it because you buy the enlightened centrist bullshit way too hard.

You think everything is equal, like it all exists in a vacuum. It doesn't, and it's not. You're also using straw man arguments.

Honestly, I don't think anybody should bother replying to you anymore because you don't listen. I'm just gonna say it- you're rain wrapped in privilege, bud.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

The thing is, spreading misinformation about transgender individuals and saying they're criminals and should be tortured in prisons... Is 'protected' by you. Some of the transphobia that would've been removed (The mockery, the lies, the slander towards other individuals) seems to just be accepted now. Even people like Kevin Snowpaw, famous "I'm not a transphobe" fellow has been going around misgendering people in an attempt to harass them when people block him. You foster a culture of people who will attempt to continue to harass others and spread vitriol. You expect us to moderate our spaces, that's admirable, but there are times when moderators need to step in and say "This individual's only purpose seems to be to harass others, maybe we should warn them"
One of my tickets claimed I was 'egging on' a transphobe for telling them that it was pathetic that their attempts to harass was an attempt to garner something out of it. I was treated as though the person who decided to engage towards me, mocking me and trans individuals, was 'justified' in their harassment towards me; said harassment came from me explaining to someone how something works and how certain people felt about something.
I feel trans individuals and even queer individuals are at risk on the site as you keep it. That is just my opinion, and I know you'll likely ignore it, but there is a point which moderators do need to step in to prevent harassment campaigns, to prevent these people from spreading hate speech too.

And I saw you talking about the 'acid' post from a particularly well known bigot who's still on the site. Calling for violence is definitely a big no no from anyone on the site for legal liabilities, so I don't blame your culling of those... But you should treat the people calling for others to be tortured or raped or harmed to also be considered violence, even if they try to reword it as 'an opinion' or reword it as 'something they saw on fox news' or whatever propaganda source they cite... Because I saw a fur's journals calling for trans individuals to get molested for 'claiming they're being genocided'... Yet this is 'protected' by your freedom of expression clause, even though it creates a dangerous precedent...

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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I haven't seen any of the statements you mention. If you would like me to give a brief opinion on any of them you are welcome to link them. (Yes, I did conveniently see this journal, because I was doing a quick scan after the CSAM stuff.)

e.g. "Molesting", "harming" and "torturing in prisons" sounds bad, but I don't know whether that is what they actually said, or your interpretation/representation of it.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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https://inkbunny.net/j/553065-FloofNoodle-trans-genocid... This fellow saying "Don't let the door molest you on your way out" after mocking people is a lesser example. I don't have the comments of the others, since they've either been deleted by the journal writer/artist (Some were on Skoon's own journals/art), but I did have a ticket posted a while back about a conspiracy theorist whom the mod handling it said "You can just block it, I don't like them either" when the post was literally framing Trans individuals as 'criminals' that deserve their plights.

Addendum: https://inkbunny.net/j/553075-FloofNoodle-addressing-th... from the first user link. This fellow also directly trying to harass/debate Skoon on an alternate account (likely their main account is CrystalQuil) that skoon already has blocked if I recall.

EDIT: Also, you'll note, they've learned to wordsmith their hate speech and calls for violence behind different phrases, 'humor' and 'trolling' so that some mods won't see it clearly.

ragarth

2 months ago

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How would I report the post that

SpoonFox

linked? ( https://inkbunny.net/j/553075-FloofNoodle-addressing-th... ) It does appear to violate TOS, but the only mechanism for reporting problematic content (and I've used it in the past) is to submit a support ticket.

Perhaps there's a hatespeech issue you're not aware of because the people who see it don't know how to report that kind of content? I suggest adding a 'report' option to posts to make it easier on y'all admins to have problematic content sent to you. This might make it easier for the site to not have factions of the userbase whose experience the admins are blind to.

Justification:
From TOS: "Inappropriate content includes, but is not limited to... defames or vilifies any person or group of people."

From post: "And here we are, today. The left can do no wrong. Their riots are peace. Their murder is a holy purge. The right is to blame, isn't that correct, socialists?" This post is advocating 'othering' the left by dehumanizing them.

"Well shoot, friend, I think the left might be committing a Genocide? No, let's not go that far, surely. Let's be reasonable. Come on. Nobody actually wants the genocide of right-wingers, I'm fairly certain of this, honest." This post is trying to mask a claim that the left is committing genocide using irony. When the irony attempt is stripped its clear that the user *is* saying the left commits genocide.

Both these quotes are defamatory and villifying, there is more in the post like this as well.

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

@ ragarth

Support Tickets at the bottom. I have a ticket open for a different reason (Block/Ban Evasion), if you want to make a ticket for your issue you can put in a Support Ticket. Bottom of the page under Help. The moderators who do run the site's authority are more likely to help than Green. Green has gone on record saying he doesn't really work with moderation so much as train the moderators... So good luck.

Also he tried to pull the "Trans people are genociding gays" in another journal that directly vilifies trans people saying they're 'turning gay people into women'... ... Which is not happening... Being told you can be yourself is not 'brainwashing', but people like him will never understand that. He's his own worst enemy.

ragarth

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

Yes, the point of my post was that problematic posts may not get reviewed if enough people don't report them, and they may not get reported because people may not know how. Discord and other sites have trained us to look for a report function on the post itself, not a generic support ticket at the bottom.

So, if problematic posts stay up because they go under the radar (This is an assumption on my part) then making it easier to report posts would alleviate this. I know how easy it is to get lost in your own little bubble on inkbunny--I don't see much if any problematic content because my experience on inkbunny is very curated.

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

@ ragarth

I will say, FA and IB are the only sites I know that don't have a report function outside of a Ticket System these days. So that is valid criticism.

With the new moderators instated, they could even handle the more tickets a bit better, I hope.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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You really are trying to "both sides" this, huh?

Bigotry on both sides...  I'd love to see examples.  I want to see how a transphobe is a victim of bigotry.  Or a white supremacist.  Or a Nazi.  Because all I've ever seen are victims trying to defend themselves against those types of bigots.

Oh, and this freedom of expression bit.  It doesn't cover incitement of violence.  But I'm guessing demonizing/dehumanizing a group of people, which often leads to violence, is still okay as long as it's not an explicit call for violence, right?  Bigots can still call for harassment campaigns, post hate speech, call for violence, and generally make the place as unpleasant and unwelcoming toward marginalized groups as humanly possible, as long as they're not explicit in their violent intentions.  Just soften the language a bit and be a little more vague, and all is good.  Use plenty of dogwhistles while you're at it, so you have plausible deniability, even though everyone knows what you're really on about.

Bigotry toward people due to their race, gender identity, and/or sexuality doesn't sound like it would be included among "the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative."  Things that I'd say fit that statement include stories, jokes, conversations, etc. about rape, abortion, child abuse, religious debates, political debates, etc.  Not whether or not a group of people should be allowed to exist.

I'll say again, Starling would be disgusted with what you've allowed their site to become.  But frankly, I don't think you give a shit about that.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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I've been personally hounded out of an online community that I contributed a great deal to over a decade or so, because I said (elsewhere, initially in a comment to a friends-only post) that I'm not comfortable with using 'he' or 'she' for an un-transitioned transgender individual - that I believe it'd be a false representation to others about their sex - but that I would be happy to use "they" or their name, as that doesn't carry that connotation.

It wasn't even in relation to anything I'd said in that particular community. It triggered an online hate machine that ran and ran until the actual community behind it was disbanded six months later by its own founder.

Unfortunately the same person who had that... shall we say "lived experience", is the one you're arguing against to say there are no such things as victims of bigotry labelled as transphobes.

Fortunately, my position really was about the truth of my personal expression, rather than actually hating trans people, so I haven't sought to take that out on them. But perhaps you can understand given what happened to me, why I'm reluctant to turn around and do the same to others expressing their own personal beliefs about the topic, or contentious topics in general.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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"Some trans people I knew upset me so I am going to let bigots stomp all over the entire trans community on my site"

- you

That's exactly how... bigots think.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

They upset me, yes. They also used a position of privilege to exclude me from an unrelated community they controlled, which dominated the wider fandom for that group, and argued for others in power to do the same - which in one case they did, because they got everyone in their group to pile on.

The latter is the issue at hand, and that is what I am wary of, thanks to my personal experience of that behaviour.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Nothing's unrelated, man. That's the issue. If you're stubbornly denying personhood to people in a group, then it's always gonna be related. That's how socializing works, dude.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Blame the individuals, not the entirely of trans people. Those people were assholes towards you, and some of us agree with you on that, they treated you like shit. Those people aren't all trans people. Just like I let people speak before judging, and a vast majority of the people I've blocked are based on what they've done or said, not because of their association with anything.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I don't "blame all trans people" as a result of my experience. If I did, and acted on it, I think the result would have been rather more drastic than arguments about taking down artwork.

I am however all too aware that allegations of transphobia can be laid against people with honestly-held beliefs that conflict with those of some trans people and supporters, and so I am inclined to let them create and share furry art to express their personal views just as is allowed for those with opposing views, in their own respective spaces on Inkbunny - within limits that have been argued extensively among staff when such cases arise.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Green... You do know that vast majority of the people I report or otherwise accuse of transphobia have empty accounts, and at times, don't even have avatars. They're just here to cause strife and spew vitriol... They may have a few favorites, but they don't contribute artwork, or even writings to the site.

And saying you don't agree with someone is fine, saying someone deserves the suffering they're getting for being trans is not. Calling people out to smear their name is not alright either, when the only crime they've committed is 'being trans'.

You're letting bigots pool in your site. You'll be associated with them. I'm not trying to call you out or smear you or bully/harass you, I'm trying to tell you that you're likely making a big mistake that could lead to 'guilt by association'. I'm experienced in moderating and administration, I know all too well that if you let horrible people or bigots run rampant, people will associate you with them. Inaction is still an action. Silence is louder than you think.

And I've said, the people we are talking about, or at least... That I am talking about... Are literal bigots who want to bait people into replying to their 'hot takes' and bigotry so they can harass them. They're not contributing to the site with earnest, they're leeches that use your community to a means to justify their hate.

Echoen

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Claim #1: "Trans people have a position of privilege."

*blinks*

Claim #2: "Trans people used their privilege against me."

*rapid blinking*

Claim #3: "I refuse to use other people's preferred gender pronouns."

*blinking slows*

Claim #4: "I am reluctant to disallow people from expressing their own personal beliefs about contentious topics."

*blinking stops*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZB2ftCl2Vk

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Why, though, does that color your policy today towards me, for example?

When I said bad things about Elon Musk I got immediate moderation for it under the "direct violence" clause.

Yet I have seen multiple cases now of users celebrating the suffering of trans people going completely un-phased. Including in my journals in previous entries.

You are missing the point. What does your experience with those people have to do with the rest of us? What they did to upset you does not even the playing field between an oppressed minority currently under fire, and the people attacking us.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I'm sorry, but you are assuming that I had any knowledge of that, and therefore biased a decision one way or another.

My main role is making the servers work. While I do also oversee overall site policy, I do not handle the vast majority of tickets or moderation actions, nor is your name familiar to me from being raised repeatedly among moderators. I reviewed my logs and there are total of two mentions of you, one basically agreeing with you about Musk while at the same time saying the content concerned was inappropriate (presumably this was the "violent" incident you referenced), and another using you as an object example of a journal-heavy writer with a very prominent political position and provocative use of language which we might in fairness have to moderate more significantly if we did so to a certain other journal-heavy writer on the opposing side (i.e. a discussion of where to draw the line in general).

Apparently I also took some technical action on your behalf, which just goes to show that my memory for names is not the best. In fairness, it's more a matter of putting a user ID into a script for that, and I'd just need your name to look it up.

It is likely true that our first response to what might be seen as inappropriate celebration would be to suggest using available tools to remove them from your space, and formal action might only be taken - as another commented here - when we identify a pattern of behaviour across the site, rather than something resolved by a ban from an individual user.

There is also the matter of clean hands, i.e. if someone is dishing out provocative statements we are understandably less inclined to prosecute heated responses incited by them. I don't know if that applies in this particular circumstance, I just mention it due to the general tenor of your journals.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Let me translate that last part for you into something anybody can understand- because your lawyer speak won't work on me.

"You are part of a class of people currently undergoing an active genocide and we don't give a shit, and I think it's fine when people celebrate that you are afraid for your rights and your life when you dare to mention it. Fuck you, tranny."

Thanks, GR. :3

Telain

2 months, 1 week ago

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I vehemently disagree with GR's overall view, but it does you no service to put words into his mouth that aren't even close to what he's saying. Yes, we are less likely to interfere in a situation that someone made an inflammatory post and then got backlash because of it. If you see someone getting their ass kicked, are you more likely to intervene than if you come across 2 people trading blows? I'd say most people probably are (this is assuming they're in a position to do so).

Personally, I want to start removing those inflammatory posts entirely, as I see them as being against the Terms of Service everyone had to agree to and they aren't productive for an art community. I've seen some on both sides.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Certainly seems like the vibe I'm getting from him.

Like I'm not gonna argue with you I was being particularly harsh with that one I just don't agree that it's all that far off.

Sangie

2 months ago

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Hear that trans people... You're the ones with the privilege!

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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It's not that hard to respect someone's pronouns, regardless of sex. I know it's part of your neurodivergent side to go "But that's not logical" but that's where it becomes about respect more than logic. Yes, it's shitty that they can attack you over misgendering, it's happened to me, but learning to go "I'm sorry, I'll get it right this time" is another thing. It's hard to understand, I know this, because I suffered from it when I was younger. I know you're not normal either, so it can be difficult to understand why such a reaction would happen. Refusing to change is why people have been labeling you as a transphobe, or at least, a 'supporter' of them, when I've personally seen you neutral about it more than anything. But neutrality also leads to inaction, and inaction can lead to people getting hurt one way or another, especially if you have the power to actually do something.

This isn't about what happened to you in the past marking what you must do going forward. This is about a responsibility to keep hateful people off your platform, the -ACTUAL- transphobes who call people out, who want to hurt others, who harass people. Like the people that used to be properly disciplined for their hate speech half a year ago. It isn't just the trans individuals who get harassed. I've seen a few anti-gay sentiments, like Long Tom posting about 'Faggots' as a way to mock the slur, when I know for a fact from FA he's VERY homophobic and hateful, yet all I get is "just ignore him". You let them get away with things that will snowball into problems that drive your base away.

At the end of the day, the more you allow bigots to roam freely on your site, the closer you get to your site only being populated by bigots. When I ask furries about IB, there are three sentiments I get. "The pedo site" (Blegh, I hate that label), "The freedom of speech site" (Which isn't entirely true), and "The bigot site", which the last one has gone down just a little when people heard about Roarey's departure. His cronies have also started moving off site, which led to some people feeling a little more safe, but not completely safe.

The other problem is, if you block one person who is harassing you, what do you do when their whole club starts harassing you? What about when they make journals about you, mocking you, or trying to spread misinformation/lies about you? That pushes away customers for artists, that causes more problems when it comes to the rumor mill. There's a reason FA has the clause "You cannot nameshame in journals" to prevent that kind of behavior. They take it a bit... fervently... And sometimes you NEED to artist beware someone, but when someone starts nasty rumors just because you blocked them, or otherwise continues to try to assault you in their own safe space, it creates friction even through that block button.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I don't think it is right, though. To me, it is simply me saying a falsehood about someone else to a third party. I take telling the truth very seriously; and while I can't impose my standards and understanding of the plain meaning of words on what others choose to say, they govern what I say. That's not something negotiable or subject to change.

I am willing to respect others by not using pronouns which - again, to me - imply a particular sex, when I believe they will be received poorly. For most this is enough, but for some it isn't.

Regarding the last bit of what you said, to me it recalls what I have said elsewhere about wanting to deny others the privileges you enjoy, only for calling others out rather than posting art. What we can prosecute in that area is people seeking to get others to contact a user who has banned them on their behalf, as that is a circumvention of the technical protections provided for you to control your experience.

Likewise, false statements of fact are actionable; but we are not in a position to determine the truth of all statements, and many which people object to are merely opinions. People can make their own journals to lay out their positions.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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You're not the arbiter of truth, though. Especially not an incredibly subjective truth like "how one person identifies." What's objective about a name? Nothing. It's a lie given flesh through social convention. But you respect it all the same, because it's convenient. That's all pronouns are– convenience names. This is not some moral issue you're taking a stand on here, you look silly.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

But it's not about how someone identifies themselves. It's about how I am identifying them - my assertions of my understanding of facts about them. These conflict because we have differing standards for the use of language. The accommodation I use essentially involves avoiding those parts which conflict.

Echoen

2 months, 1 week ago

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'Claim #1: "Trans people have a position of privilege."

*blinks*

Claim #2: "Trans people used their privilege against me."

*rapid blinking*

Claim #3: "I refuse to use other people's preferred gender pronouns."

*blinking slows*

Claim #4: "I am reluctant to disallow people from expressing their own personal beliefs about contentious topics."

*blinking stops*

WHAT PERSONAL BELIEFS, HM? WHAT TOPICS, HM HM?

This is the same logic as States Rights. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZB2ftCl2Vk

So are we to understand that because you personally perceive trans people as privileged and they excluded you from hanging out with them in any shared space, therefore you're going to deliberately allow people who say things against trans people to hang out in the space you control?

What, are some folks saying stuff that you wish you could say? Expressing opinions that you agree with but if you were 'caught' agreeing with them then you couldn't handle the reputation ding?

Earlier, you tried to cite UK law. In a cherry-picking way. As if to claim that by UK law you must allow the expression of people who say things against a group of people you perceive as privileged, and if you don't then you'll face legal repercussions or the site will be at risk?

It's just an excuse. It's all an excuse or justification, because you feel silenced and trapped and prevented from saying the things you want to say, because you yourself don't want the label of bigot or transphobe. You feel you have to allow other bigots and other transphobes to say this stuff here on Inkbunny because you yourself aren't allowed to without your reputation or your ego feeling bruised. You'd rather cling to the transphobic thoughts and feelings you have, label them as 'reasonable' and 'accommodating' because you personally identify as that kind of person and NOT as a bigoted transphobe.

Let it go, dude. Just say the shit you want to say and stop hiding behind "trans people diminish me when I refuse to use their pronouns."'

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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And yet, they still did conflict, despite that. So it was about that, despite you not wanting it to be. Because you don't get to decide how people feel about what you say. And how people feel about you determines everything about whether or not you get to play with them on the playground. However much you might not want the world to be that way, it is. It's how the world works. No amount of arguing around it will change that.

Sangie

2 months ago

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I'd like to know how you can tell someone's chromosomes by looking at them though. Or before you use someone's pronouns, do you want them to drop their pants so you can ensure you are speaking ""truth""?

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Oh, yeah, I remember that. See, your problem was that, when you encountered pushback, instead of trying to learn, you doubled and tripled down. If you'd presented openmindedness, you could have emerged unscathed, but you couldn't let go of your pride.

That's not to say that people on the left can't be petty or vindictive or anything like that; of course they can. And trans people in particular can be really sensitive toward rejection, because they live in a world that largely rejects them. But that's why you have to be careful when you're addressing people who are the target of a lot of actual prejudice– not pretend "my opinion isn't being respected" prejudice, but real, "kicked out of your home, fired and assaulted" prejudice.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Like, really! Honestly! We've all said dumb shit before. Hell, my own personal community is chock full of people who used to have conservative viewpoints or just said or did dumb things that were way worse than what you did. The difference is, they showed curiosity, contrition, they wanted to meet people halfway and understand why they felt how they did. Learning how to navigate mistakes is part of adulthood. You can't get anywhere without it.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

As noted above, I'm willing to "meet them halfway" by not using such pronouns when I believe them to be unwelcome. In turn, I expect them to accept the use of neutral terms such as "they" or their name as a reasonable accommodation of my own values and beliefs. I do feel I understand their feeling, but that does not extend to a requirement to adopt their point of view.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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That's not meeting them halfway, that's you deciding where halfway is and imposing that on them. Actually meeting them halfway would involve you AND THEM agreeing on the compromise.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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It is as far as I am willing to go. There will always be some cases in which an agreement cannot be reached because the parties are too far apart. The issue is when one party decides that is justification to seek to diminish or destroy the other party.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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You weren't diminished. You weren't destroyed. People asked you for a basic social courtesy, you decided you didn't care, then the rest of that social group decided that they didn't want you around based on it. You failed to navigate a basic social faux pas. That's all that happened. You're not a victim. You did this to yourself.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Grow past it. For your own sake.

Telain

2 months, 1 week ago

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Why is it so important to you what's in someone's pants? Is it so hard not to equate gender with sex?

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Sex is a physical thing, gender is a social thing. Pronouns are related to gender, and it is based on respect that we use proper pronouns. If the same logic is used, the moment someone like Green hears someone's real name, it should be an obligation to never use their online name because it's not the 'truth', it's an alias.

And I wonder what Green would use for people who are intersexed... Is it how they 'appear' at that point..? *sigh*

If someone says they want to be called something, it's respectful to do so. To not do so, is actively to disrespect them. It's meant to mock their desires. At the very least... It's rude.

Telain

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Honestly, I default to he (as I'm male and my brain is wired to assume everyone is like me) or they (which I'm trying to push myself towards more, mostly with success) for people. I'm likely to call most people 'they' indefinitely, but it's because my memory is absolute shit and not everything has pronoun labels handy, rather than some lack of consideration for the human being at the other end. It's not like me using someone's desired pronoun, especially when they're a person on the other end of the internet that I will likely never see and don't even have the excuse of cognitive dissonance for, hurts me in any way.

I can't stand people that actively misgender someone because the other person pissed them off and that somehow makes them feel like a superior person.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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I do the same with they. I forget a lot because I've experienced thousands of humans in my life. If I'm corrected, I try my best to match their preferred pronouns out of respect. Even if I don't like someone, I will still use their preferred pronouns.

Kindness and compassion are more powerful than pettiness and maliciousness. I will always live by that. I was also raised to respect everyone when you meet them, and respect is to be lost, not earned.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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I personally default to they/them when I meet new people- or at least I am training myself to do so. That way there's no accidental offense. It's like how people stopped asking fat women if they were pregnant, it's just not a good idea.

I also cut people who knew me for years slack when I openly transitioned because I knew the human brain was going to have a tough time re-programming he to she, and an adjustment period was just going to happen.

Despite what some people think I am actually not unreasonable. heh

But, to project your own personal standards onto somebody else, call it a middle ground and then act like they are the ones not meeting you halfway? Nah, fam. That ain't it.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

You have a weird argument there. Both GreenReaper and Laurence refer to the same person if we're talking about real life. "He" and "she" are tags - they refer to a property of a person. The person's physical sex is an objective basis for that property, and as such it is what I use, when I use such pronouns, because it reflects my honest belief about an objective fact about them.

An intersexed person usually is technically one or the other sex DNA-wise (i.e. they have XY or XX chromosomes), but that may not be the case in rare situations, and if so - or perhaps if their sexual development did not proceed for other reasons - it might not be appropriate to refer to them as either "he" or "she", because either implies something that is not true. Perhaps that better explains my concern - I would be claiming something that isn't the case. (Wikidata has a "no value" option that might be is suitable in such situations.)

lolimouse

2 months ago

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some intersex conditions are extremely common. about 1 in every 600 persons with a Y chromosome has an extra X chromosome (XXY). because of epigenetics and other factors, this can present in a variety of ways, from fairly obvious to not detectable at all. many people live their whole lives as men without ever knowing they have an extra X chromosome. you could have an extra X chromosome yourself and never know it because of how expensive karyotyping is.

kiwakiwa

2 months ago

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Im sorry, but, as a certain type of autistic, i just have to comment on this..
something which according to you happens to ~0,08333...% of population, is not in my opinion "Extremely Common"..
i i said to you, "bet 50 bucks in my game, it is extremely common that people win", and then say that change to win is that ~0,08333...%, wouldn't you feel kind of mislead by that ?
Sure it can be more common than some other ultra rare condition but, i would not use words "extremely common" to describe that...

lolimouse

2 months ago

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@ kiwakiwa

anyone who actually knows about statistics and probability knows that you dont actually judge how common stuff is based on the percentage alone, you use other factors, such as how common it is in relation to other similar conditions (intersex conditions in this case). theres over 7 billion people on the planet, so yes, even something affecting that small of a percentage of people can be considered common. theres at least 2 people in this thread alone that have XXY chromosomes that i know of.

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

@ kiwakiwa

My autistic brain has a counter point:
Is 0.06% a lot? In 1000 people, no, in 8.5 billion people? Yes. That is 510 Million people. That's more people than in the entire US.

EDIT: I know 0.06 is lower than the estimate, brain is fried today. x.x But it's an example statistic

kiwakiwa

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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dude...
"Common" and "uncommon" as defined terms have nothing to do with
"lot"
i never said that there were not a "lot" of them, i said it was not common. those are two totally different things, and can both be true, or untrue at the same time.
and yes, something which only directly affects 0.06% of anything, is not common, it's not even uncommon, it's actually very rare..
like
just as an example...
someone may have a LOT of diamonds in they possession, and that would still not make diamonds "common" as a mineral.
also someone may not have a single grain of wheat in their possession, not at all, but still, that is the most common plant on earth at the moment..
Lot/few are not comparable, and are different things that "common/rare"
if i say that there are HUNDRED THOUSAND people on this whole planet with condition X, even though as a single group of people, that is a large group, a lot of people, that condition itself is still not "common".. with that kinda percentage there are several whole countries in this planet which would not have a single person with that condition X, just based on population..
another example,
around 0.06% of population have IQ of 150, or more that really does not make IQ of 150 "common"
words have certain definitions.

SpoonFox

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ kiwakiwa

Read what I put down. I didn't say it removed common/uncommon status, I said that the higher numbers get, the less percentiles become relevant towards the statistic at hand because then it has become large enough to easily be seen. And I quoted Dr. Who with the 'is x a lot' >_> So that probably confused you.

The point I'm making is that people use your logic to belittle things that aren't actually little in the grand scheme of things. Like the people who think 1% fatality on a disease is 'Not that bad' when 1% of the world's population is 85,000,000 people... That's more people than most countries have for a population, and roughly a third of the US population if you think about it.

That is what I am trying to say.

By your logic, due to the universe being 98% hydrogen and helium, then the fact that planets exist with carbon, iron, etc. means they're uncommon, but almost every star we've discovered has some form of planets, planetoids, or itself has materials other than hydrogen and helium inside.

I guess, I'm trying to counter your autistic logic with my autistic logic to make a point. The bigger the number something gets, the more abundant it technically is, regardless of the percentile. You have to factor in space and population, demographics, and more information overall to say definitively you aren't likely to encounter something. More information is required than just the math numbers.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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If someone could be "he" or "she" depending on their personal perspective, I don't see that the words can be a useful means of communicating anything. They are not the same as a name - they are a statement of fact, and that fact is about their sex.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

HOLY SHIT

You did NOT just fuckin' quote Donald Trump directly. WOW. You're not even trying anymore.

Like absolutely fuck you.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

-*pulls up a bullhorn*-
And what about intersex people Mister Dodge The Fucking Question

Also this mf doesn't understand the difference between gender and sex, somebody give him a Biology 102 lesson ffs

Telain

2 months, 1 week ago

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Here is this person. They present themselves as he/she/they and will be referred to as such. It's not like you're going around and saying "My friend John has a Playstation. He also has a dick in his pants, just so we're being clear."

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Some lightheartedness, that sounds like something we absolutely would say back when I was a teenager, lmao.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Sex Essentialism is an extreme right position. You are an extremist. I don't know how else to explain this. You've backed ass-first into an extreme view.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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I'm going to teach you something important to society, Green.
Language is a social construct. Gendered language is a social construct. Gender itself, is a social construct. Sex is a physicality, but gender is a construct.
Language could easily evolve to have neutral pronouns, no longer representing gender, and it could evolve to have alternative pronouns, such as a noble or worker having different pronouns than one another.
He/She/They are social identifiers, not physical identifiers. Refusing to accept this means you're creating a false reality for yourself, especially since, if I recall, some languages have special pronouns for different types of people. I believe Japanese has some of these.
So it's not about the physicality of what is in one's pants, it's about an identifier for social interaction. If it were ever EVER about sex, then 'they' would never be used, it would be a firm 'he or she' and a secret third, fourth, etc. pronoun for the various intersex individuals.
Physically speaking, humans are on a spectrum of sex. There's more than XX and XY, there's also XXY, there's androgeny, there's intersex, there's hermaphroditic life in this world too with an extremely rare number of humans born that way. There's all kinds of different sexes.
I hope you can understand, as a fellow of logic, that your logic is flawed and needs to be corrected.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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To add a little onto this-

I was born XXY. Even though I identify as she/her (a woman)- I am intersex.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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I was actually reading singular they a few months ago. It was a lot rarer back in the day, at least in writing. Instead, you normally saw he used. It was even written in Parliament that "words importing the masculine gender shall be deemed and taken to include females" (he refers also to she).

People largely stopped using he to refer to a generic person around the time I was born precisely because it implied that the subject was male, i.e. it was sexist given that it might refer to someone who was female. So perhaps you can see why I don't have much time for the concept that it isn't linked to sex.

Nowadays "they" is a convenient way of referring to someone without making a factual statement about them, be it their sex or identified gender.

lolimouse

2 months ago

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im not sure i quite understand this whole "the old way is the objective truth" stance. should we also go back to the understanding of math and science we had at the time? every linguist knows that language evolves the same way those things do. pronouns were connected to sex before, because sex was closely correlated to outward, public self expression. but now that isnt the case a significant amount of the time.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

"	SpoonFox wrote:
	There's more than XX and XY, there's also XXY...

Regarding this specifically, the NHS says that the people concerned are "boys and men" and "The X chromosome is not a "female" chromosome and is present in everyone. The presence of a Y chromosome denotes male sex", which would imply to me that 'he' is the appropriate pronoun - but of course, I'd be glad to use 'they' if I believed that 'he' would be poorly received.

Telain

2 months, 1 week ago

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The NHS also says that pronouns are important. https://www.lpft.nhs.uk/about-us/equality-and-diversity...

    Sex does not predetermine a person’s gender. Many people’s gender doesn’t sit comfortably with the sex they were assigned at birth.
    We all like to be referred to in a way that makes us feel accepted. This can include the use of our name, gender and pronouns. It might take some getting used to, but using the right pronouns for someone will make them feel acknowledged and valid.
    Using people’s correct pronouns shows that you respect them and who they are. Take the lead and introduce your pronouns, to allow people such as the trans and non-binary community feel safe and comfortable in relaying their pronouns.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Aww, and he worked so hard to find the one permutation that agreed with his biases!

Can't wait to see him try to wriggle outta this one. Well, GR? What mental gymnastics will you dazzle us with this time?? How will you justify your obvious grudge against the people who got you kicked out of your stupid chess club or whatever, while trying to maintain the veneer of "fairness?"

Telain

2 months, 1 week ago

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To be fair, he probably just looked up the chromosomal(sp?) makeup to see how it equates to the view he's been stating. Though he's wrong in that pronouns should only be concerned with your junk.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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If I were to quibble I would note that this is the work of a specific NHS trust (similar to a local charity running a hospital or group of hospitals vs. the Department of Health)... which is in turn being pushed by Stonewall.

But sure. It would be more respectful towards their own wishes. But it would not respect my wish to tell the truth, as I see it. Respect is a two-way street. I am willing to compromise what I would normally say about them, which they might dislike, and in turn I ask them to accept that it would not be respectful to my own values and beliefs to say what they might prefer.

Telain

2 months, 1 week ago

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Obviously there's no convincing you that empathy is more important than always being "right".

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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You: "I just want to tell the truth!"
Science: "Not being a biologist, your understanding of this subject is utterly fucking baby-brained nonsense; you should just call people what they want."
You: "Mmmmmmmm no, they were mean to me once so I'm gonna be a fucking jackass about it. 😊"

FlaminHardware

2 months, 1 week ago

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"	GreenReaper wrote:
	If I were to quibble I would note that this is the work of a specific NHS trust (similar to a local charity running a hospital or group of hospitals vs. the Department of Health)... which is in turn being pushed by Stonewall.

Firstly, they're still an official part of the NHS. Their words and resources are therefore endorsed by it. You cannot simply use a resource you like and dismiss another from the same organization simply because you dislike what one piece says.

As for "being pushed" by Stonewall... I mean yeah? Is it really such a stretch that a medical organization, which concerns itself not just with physical but also mental health, would go to the trans-positive organization for tips and tricks to address the trans community?

That said, you're using "being pushed" as a pejorative, and quite obviously I might add. As others have stated, perhaps you really do need to reexamine your own "neutrality," as from the perspective of trans and trans adjacent folks here, you quite clearly aren't. If you see any positivity, even from a *medical organization* as being "anti-neutral," then perhaps you aren't the neutral party here.

I will also say, as a self-described historian, that allowing outright bigotry isn't neutral. Right-wing extremists will push every boundary, erode the patience and willpower of authority, shift conversations, and evade consequence by every means possible to continue speaking their hate. Time and again, right wing extremists use their freedom of expression to harass and curtail the same freedoms in other groups they target, and if they gain any amount of power then they absolutely use it to *officially* curtail and harass those groups. See, as a relevant example, the Nazis effectively burning the German Institute for Sexual Science to the ground because it was "deviant" in studying homosexuality and transgender experiences.

Tynach

2 months ago

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I don't really expect an answer, as it seems this thread has gone on for quite some time.

That said, if you do have time to at least read this, I would like to present my own arguments about this, as someone who used to think similarly to you on this topic (and in some ways still do, but I'm working on that for reasons I shall explain).

Language is about communication, and telling the truth is about communicating accurate information. And honestly, English is simply not equipped for the task of communicating transgendered pronouns. He/she/they/etc. are all inaccurate for this task, and no matter which one you use, it is a lie. So if one must be chosen, it makes sense to choose the one that conveys the most accurate version of the information for the relevant context of the conversation.

Relevant context is the key part of this. When you say, "My friend said that he would..." or, "My friend said that she would...", the pronoun part of that sentence is not meant to convey the form of their genitals, nor their genetic makeup. That would be a very weird and inappropriate thing to do. Instead, the purpose is to create expectations. Saying 'he' sets up the expectation of someone who is generally more masculine than feminine, and using 'she' sets up the expectation of someone who is generally more feminine than masculine.

This expectation is not always matched up with reality, even with cisgendered people. There are biological men who identify as men, but enjoy crossdressing as a woman and presenting themselves that way. However, such people know that they are subverting expectations, and often that is the point; they often want people to expect a more masculine than feminine person, but be surprised by a more feminine than masculine person. Or at the absolute least, they know that it will happen.

Transgender identities bring another factor to the equation. These are people who are uncomfortable with their biological sex, and a core part of their identity is that they identify as the opposite sex. Most of the time, they don't want to subvert expectations; they instead want to be treated as if they were always biological sex that they identify as. Someone who is a trans woman wants to be perceived as a woman, and someone who's a trans man wants to be perceived as a man.

So, when you want to communicate to someone what to expect out of their appearance, it's a balance between whether you want to communicate the information that the person being discussed would want you to communicate, vs. what is most accurate to communicate. A biological man who also identifies as a man, but tends to crossdress, probably doesn't crossdress all the time.. So whether you say 'he' or 'she', it might turn out to be a lie anyway. You might as well just say 'he' and let him deal with any confusion that results.

But when it comes to someone who's transgender, remember that they don't want to subvert expectations. They want to be seen as the gender they identify as, and they will put an effort into conforming to the expectations of that gender. So a biological man who identifies as a woman — that is, a transgender woman — is most accurately referred to with female pronouns: she/her. That is the most accurate way to communicate the expectations they should have when imagining the person saying or doing what you say they're saying or doing, and the expectations they should have when they meet in person.

As for why this is still a lie at times, and why English just sucks at this... Growing up, I had an older sister. He is now my older brother, but around my parents I still say she/her. Around others that I have known for a long time, I have started to use he/him, because that most accurately represents his appearance and mannerisms.. But in the past I told many people I only had a sister, and no brother.

(Oop, character limit. Almost done, so I'll post the end in a much shorter post.)

Tynach

2 months ago

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@ Tynach

Nowadays, when I mention my brother to people, I sometimes get replies about how they didn't know I had a brother, and I end up having to explain that they were previously my sister. I wish there were a 'female→male' pronoun that would let me communicate that I'm talking about my sister that is now my brother, but such a thing does not exist.

I sometimes say 'my sibling' as a result, but that just sounds so very forced and I don't really like it style-wise.

Breetails

2 months, 1 week ago

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Holy shit your a terrible fucking person.

lolimouse

2 months ago

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i think this begs the question of what youre trying to communicate. im a trans girl (MTF). when strangers see me, they think im a cis woman. when i talk to strangers on the phone, like the bank or my insurance company, they still call me "ma'am" even when i try to do a guy voice (ive just gotten really bad at sounding like a boy).

how do i know theyre not just being polite and respectful? because when i try to explain that im trans, people often think i mean that im a trans guy (FTM).

would using he/him pronouns for me make any sense outside of overtly referring to my junk in a sort of creepy way? and if thats the case for me, shouldnt it be the case for all trans people? what need is there for communicating to third parties what my chromosomes or genitals are?

youre trying to rationalize your stance, but what it really comes down to is that you stubbornly dont want to, for no particular reason that stands up to thorough examination, even in the utilitarian sense that you seem to value.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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As a side note- I knew I was passing when strangers started thinking I was a transman if/when it came up. lol

Since I was always effeminate (largely due to being XXY) even when presenting male, there was more than one moment early in my transition where strangers thought I was FTM, as well.

The only thing I am still very insecure about is my bust size and still having to shave my face. GAWD I want those stupid follicles gone.

lolimouse

2 months ago

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i was also very effeminate before transitioning and got gendered as female quite a bit! i feel ya on the shaving. im a ginger, so my hair is very light and doesnt show much, but it still bothers me when i can feel it, and i still do have to shave before it grows long. i recently switched to a safety razor which is both waaaay cheaper to use (i shave every other day and i replace my blade every 2 uses, so a $10 pack of 100 Astra platinum blades lasts over a year!) and also gives a way closer shave once you get past the initial learning curve!

electrolysis is definitely gonna happen in the future though, heh.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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I'm very poor and can't afford electrolysis, that's been my hurdle. :<

My razor hurdle is Dyspraxia. I have a motor skill disability and I'll just cut myself up something fierce. >.<

lolimouse

2 months ago

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thats why i havent gotten electrolysis too q~q hoping ill be able to afford it after i get treatment for my busted shoulder and can start working again! that rly sucks about the dyspraxia though. i dont suppose you live with anyone who'd be willing to shave you? x3 i know it sounds silly and probably also uncomfy but little stuff like that can be very sweet with the right friends or a partner.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Not yet I don't. But my lover and I are trying to, problem is we have both been on edge about all of our plans because of Trump and Musk.

lolimouse

2 months ago

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yeah, i know what you mean. ive decided to adopt the attitude of "do what i can and dont worry about the rest". my goal is to get back into good health and move in with the person i love. if the world wants to burn down around me, let it! ill enjoy whatever time i get with her, and ill fight for it if it comes to that. but right now, i got more immediate concerns, yeah?

i dunno. ymmv, but i hope youll take the leap of faith to push forward towards your goals regardless of whats going on in the world at large. you deserve to be happy.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Oh we're going to try our hardest no matter what- it's just we live five hours apart and I'm impoverished and need my HRT and mental health meds (and you know how moving to another state also means changing insurance and doctors).

So the current Reich in charge destroying everything is a potential genuine boulder. That and we both belong to a targeted and in-danger minority group and I admit I am always worried about one of us getting hurt or killed before we make it. x-x

I still live in Jesusland atm, he's actually in a better area.

lolimouse

2 months ago

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i know it can be difficult not to worry about imminent danger to your life, but its probably best not to think about it too much for now. one thing ive learned from being disabled and in constant chronic pain and not knowing if im really gonna be okay is that worrying like that tends to drain my energy and damage my mental state unnecessarily. i try to save that for when shit truly hits the fan. i focus on what i can do and leave the rest up to fate. reading back over this it probably seems some combination of ridiculous and impossible. took me a bit to learn how to do.

i know it probably doesnt mean much, but i have faith that youll get there and itll all work out.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Thanks <3

Hey we're both disabled. Sadly part of my mental cocktail is paranoia so me not worrying is uh... not a toggle.

lolimouse

2 months ago

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hehe, yeah, same here. i still struggle with it and slip into a real bad place from time to time. actually just coming out of one of them the past couple days. but im a lot less capable in that collapsed state, so i try to fight it however i can. its definitely not as simple as switching it off, tho >.<;

ShimmeringSpectrum

2 months, 1 week ago

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Respecting someone's pronouns is right up there with respecting someone's name. The overwhelming majority of people in the furry fandom use a pseudonym and expect to be addressed by their chosen name. Sometimes their fursona is a different sex and/or gender than they are IRL and the pronouns of their fursona are typically used; it would not be socially acceptable to address an obviously female character as "he" based on the sex/gender of her player.

A real-world transgender person choosing their own name and pronouns and expecting to be addressed accordingly is not fundamentally different. People have every right to be who they believe they are.

For the record: I'm trans. I have chosen my own name. I use pronouns other than those I was assigned at birth. I expect my pronouns to be used in the usual manner pronouns are used in English. My driver's license and passport reflect that information. The contents of my pants are nobody's business except my sex partners and doctors. The contents of my genome are not for anyone to know, given that I deleted my 23andMe account prior to their bankruptcy. To go against all of that and knowingly insist on addressing me otherwise, based on knowledge you shouldn't have or assumptions you shouldn't make, is both unreasonable and unjustifiable.

hexanes

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

And there it is. You confess right here that you decided that something shouldn't be a big deal to a marginalized group, even though it is excruciatingly not your place to decide what is and is not an acceptable way to handle someone else's pronouns. But because you refuse to understand the gravity of your actions or take responsibility for the consequences of your nakedly transphobic belief that other people's pronouns are your call, you see your own hurt feelings as equivalent to the harm that your transphobic ideas cause. You have openly stated your bias; "Trans people didn't tolerate my anti-trans sentiments and to this day I still feel put-out over the freedom from consequences I believed myself entitled to."

So you let "reasonable expressions of opinions" slide when they propagate ideas that dehumanize transgender people and trivialize our oppression and lived experiences, viewpoints that explicitly exist to enable and facilitate violence against us that is, need I fucking remind the room, actively on the rise, because, you see, "being fair" HAS to mean "never do anything that could ever make me feel bad like that one time those nasty transes were MEAN to me because I refused to use their pronouns, the most famously bare-minimum litmus test to not being a transphobe." Fairness, as we all know, means YOU never have to feel like you're losing, because losing isn't fair!!!

It, of course, has nothing to do with, say, whether the consequences of what things we allow to propagate unchecked actually lend themselves to a much less safe community for an already struggling, already marginalized community perhaps most notorious for, besides being "controvercial" for existing at all, being comically easy targets for social murder.

But see, YOU got kicked out of your stupid little club, and all you got for it is the power to decide who gets to call for who's erasure from society openly on one of the biggest furry websites there is. Truly, we really need to be thinking about YOUR feelings here. The ever-advancing march of anti-trans legislation enabled by the further proliferation of anti-trans rhetoric really doesn't seem all that bad, when you consider, that YOUR feelings got hurt once, too.

Totally the same thing bro, you look super smart and extremely correct and also like, totally neutral about transgender people. That grudge you carry about not being allowed to reject transgender people's pronouns at your own discretion, something that you clearly have no grasp of the actual gravity of? Nah, that's just pure unbiased moderate centrism. Nobody look up wht the overton window is btw. The implications of self-identifying as centrist in the context of a right-wing extremist society are inconvenient.

Alfador

2 months ago

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Do you insist on always referring to people by their legal names instead of their furry names, because to do otherwise would equally be a false representation? If you don't, it's hypocritical to hold pronouns to the same standard.

Sangie

2 months ago

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You said it on your public twitter https://x.com/WikiNorn/status/417062858887684096 https://x.com/WikiNorn/status/418135752468217856 https://x.com/WikiNorn/status/417109884555898881 … You said it on [adjective][species] in a public article… (dead site RIPiss)

Where do you get off saying it was a leaked private conversation?

GreenReaper

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

@ Sangie

As you can see, those are replies to people already talking about the matter. The trigger for it was a offhand comment expressing frustration (probably with regards to WikiFur) to a post restricted to members of a LiveJournal community which had a rule prohibiting external reposting of discussed matters.

Sangie

2 months ago

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As I can see theyre all from twitter and posted publicly.

TepTepgi

2 months ago

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if you look inside deviantart today its only filled with AI crap

StarRabbit

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Hey, GR. With respect, I must ask; since this site has 'blocking' why did I get a warning yesterday? Anyone who doesn't like my replies could very easily just block me, couldn't they? I, in fact, encourage blocking me if one doesn't like my replies.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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What were you warned for?

StarRabbit

2 months, 1 week ago

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Being mean to fascists.

I'll be honest; I'm extremely toxic toward MAGAts. I'm of the opinion that they surrendered all claim to decorum and decency when they chose to ally themselves with fascism.

Besides; every single one I've dealt with has been just as toxic, if slightly more subtle about it than I am.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Same here. I was as friendly and diplomatic as possible all the way up the election itself, and then I broke.

I went from pleading and trying to have discussions, to just telling them to kiss my ass and leave.

Demesejha

2 months ago

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For the same reason that my ticket about transphobes attacking me has been ignored for over a year

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Without going into details, it seems to be the difference between posting your own stuff (which can be blocked in IB parlance), and going around to others in their space (which requires a ban).

It's easy to say "if you don't like this artist/topic, you don't have to see it". It's harder to justify "let this person go around spouting f-bombs in everyone else's posts because each individual can ban them after they get a comment". As noted in the Terms of Service, we value civil communication because it is less inflammatory than insults.

As a separate matter, I wouldn't have worded it the way you got it and I have had a chat with the moderator who sent it to you about the professionalism of the language they use in official communications.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Probably the one I got on a couple of tickets...

I've seen the bigots frequently come into Cookie's space to harass her, including on her pictures about her venting. I'm not sure if those people got warnings or not, but it'd likely be that they don't care about warnings.

StarRabbit

2 months, 1 week ago

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Thank you for speaking to the moderator. I appreciate you taking the time to do that.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Okay. I have to know. What is the positive outcome on letting outright bigots use your platform?

I'm serious. You make a lot of equivocations that in my view are pretty empty, but you've never once actually articulated the positive case for letting them stay.

So what is it? What's the positive case here? Dude comes in, obvious white power idiot, you leap to their defense. What do you get out of it? What do any of us get? You have to understand that a Centrist mindset is not Neutral. You are taking an action with any decision you make, and in that case you are stating "It is better that this person stays here." So why?

- It's not out of even-minded fairness, because you already said "It's my website, I'll run it any way I want." Which, fair enough! But, okay, why do you want this, then?
- It can't be because you think their views make sense, because otherwise you'd have pulled an Elon and run the rest of us off. Obviously not the case, right?
- These people almost never make anything that's any good, so it's not like the website's artistic talent baseline would buckle.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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-These people almost never make anything that's any good, so it's not like the website's artistic talent baseline would buckle.

Agreed. Conversely, this seems to be running artists like me off the site, and despite what some people think I do carry weight. Literally and figuratively.

And even the small guys stack up over time.

GreenReaper

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I want our approach to be even-minded and fair - and yes, centrist. To me, that is the essence of the tolerance mentioned in the Philosophy (notwithstanding what I said about it not really being designed for politics at all, more for fetishes...). It also reflects the focus on a neutral point of view which I took from WikiFur, and the Wikimedia community more generally.

Likewise, I want us to moderate with a light hand, to allow the maximum freedom of expression feasible - especially furry, artistic expression given the relevant legislation (and that includes political expression - cartoons have a long history of use in politics). By definition this will never satisfy those at the extremes, at least where they see the expression of opposing views as a direct threat to their own.

There is no level of "holding to ransom" likely to change the above. We offer a service, you can use it or not. There are several past examples of "not", and I'm sure there will be others in the future.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I just explained to you why this approach isn't even-minded or fair. You're more than happy to tell anyone who thinks nazis shouldn't be here to kick rocks, despite that being an extremely moderate position. As such, your position is the one that's far out of the norm. You're the extremist in this equation.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Dog whistles and dodging. Nobody here believes you are actually centrist at this point.

You're full of shit, Green. You're a flat out liar and you know it. You're hiding things, you lie by omission, and you favor the right wing. You are not fooling anybody. You're a selfish ass. You lob the word extreme at me to discredit my argument- not to support your own. Classic DARVO tactics.

And as long as you keep trying to act all high and mighty on my journal I am going to keep calling you out for what you are. And I KNOW what you are, Green.

Echoen

2 months, 1 week ago

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Who is "we"? Does anyone else make these policy decisions? Can you be veto'd by other Inkbunny staff?

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Echoen

An excellent question I would like an answer to.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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I will repeat what I said earlier.
These people aren't contributing artwork, political or not. They're making journals and comments actively calling for persecution of trans and queer individuals. They're being hostile socially, not artistically. Saying "Trans people should be molested" and mocking suicidal thoughts that trans people are suffering from isn't a damn 'artistic expression', it's harassment and bigotry.

Norithics

2 months, 1 week ago

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Also you never answer my question on what the site benefits from keeping the nazis. You just blew right past it to regurgitate your extremist ideology, again.

DancingChar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Hey big G! I love ya but I feel you're letting this trans thing get too personal and it doesn't make you look good.
If you want IB to allow some anti-trans opinions that's fine I guess but you don't want people thinking that you, as the head admin agree with them. I don't think you actually agree with them either.

I think to help your image (and by proxi the site's), you should consider making some kind of small public statement on behalf of IB supporting trans rights (they're going through a lot right now and could use it).
You could also state that, while the site tolerates some anti-trans opinions, it doesn't encourage it and the tolerance only goes so far.
I think people wouldn't mind your policy as much so long as they know the admin team doesn't actively support anti-trans stuff.

Btw, have you checked my proposal about an AI rating?
You don't have to answer here. I just want to make sure you saw it. Thanks.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ DancingChar

I'm going to be honest with you, man- it's too late.

Any apology would be hollow, I have gotten many eyes on his words. His rhetoric is beat for beat from the radical right playbook. You cut him credit he does not deserve. I believe he does agree with those opinions because he has touted those opinions himself, in this journal.

He hung himself with his own rope.

Some people may never see this and not know better, some will simply never hear of the issue- but for anybody who did and knows better the bridge is already burned and he lit the match.

DancingChar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Maybe but I'm still gonna try and encourage his better nature. Like, I don't think he's gone full JK Rowling yet. Plus I just really like this site and don't want to give up on it if I don't have to.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ DancingChar

I won't convince you to, and hey somebody has to help people get better so I commend that.

As it stands right NOW though he is hard in the paint. To help him grow you have to accept where he's at, yanno?

DancingChar

2 months, 1 week ago

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Yeah, but baby steps. I've been trying to sell him on an AI fix too, which is a similar vein to this issue I think. He never responded to it but I think he's seen it and might be considering something. I guess we'll see what happens.
Good luck with your other sites btw.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ DancingChar

Thanks! :3

I'll be fine on them, I've been running them alongside this the whole time, been on FA even longer than here (17 years, going on 18 now). Really the hard part has been pulling the masses away from Xwitter.

DennisTheRapeyGator

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Look I like a lot of fucked up shit but that comes with the basis of zero tolerance of any kind of judgement.

Everything you've said in this thread has almost proven you haven't been even-minded. You bring up dog whistles, even bringing up the biggest "whistle" (more of a loud speaker at this point) talking about trans people in sports like that has any real relevance or even basis in reality.

Then there's the fact you openly admit to misgendering people because actually using their pronouns is, idk too hard for you I guess?

And of course at the end you finally trying to say "well actually the body says this so I much misgender this person!"

Do fucking better or fuck off

Wdeleon

2 months, 1 week ago

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"	I want our approach to be even-minded and fair - and yes, centrist.

When it comes to trans people getting to just exist vs. transphobes trying to oppress and/or completely erase them, there is no real, legitimate "centrist" position because one side isn't really being "political," while the other is a political extreme.

The two positions are, essentially, a universally human position of, "We just want a basic right to exist." The other is the extremely right-wing politicized position of viciously persecuting a small and already disproportionately disenfranchised and oppressed minority for overtly political reasons.

You're not a "centrist" for pretending that "maybe there's merit to what bigots are saying." You're just leaning toward giving undeserved credence to bigots and away from protecting the rights (and in the case of trans people, often the very existence) of the minorities they're bigoted against.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

sparro

2 months ago

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"Just block the nazis" doesn't stop them from harming real people, recruiting, and creating an atmosphere that drives decent folks off. Just like keeping smoking in one part of a restaurant didn't make the rest of the air clean, keeping the nazis on one side of the bar still makes it a nazi bar, and still makes it a gross place to be.

Kinky art harms nobody. The alt-right and bigots harm real people. Refusing to respect trans people's pronouns harms real people. Do better.

BunnyQueen

2 months ago

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You do not have a centrist opinion, if one side is saying that a group should die, or not exist (in public, society, internet, whatever), Ie. Nazis, and other bigots, and one is saying "Hey, thats evil, I wanna live my life" ie. any LGBT+ person, then you aren't centrist, you're on the right.
Something something paradox of tolerance.
I don't want bigots ruining the website because you think it's fair for them to share their hateful shit views

Also i've reported actual transphobic pedophiles who posted youtube videos of half naked children and all I got was a "We're keeping an eye on them"
So idk if I trust your judgement.

Kalibran

2 months ago

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We’ll circle back to this in a few days or weeks when you start banning dissenters.

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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@ Kalibran

Green Reaper isn't normally the kind of person to ban people over grudges, or a LOT of bans would have happened over the years. Not defending him, just laying out one of the reasons we don't see bans very much on this site...

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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In this case his hesitancy to do so is actually fueling an argument being used against me by people like a certain little peabrained bunny.

Cited as an example of how my remaining presence after all this is "proof there is no transphobia here".

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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Excuse me, what the fuck, that idiot you're talking about still misgenders you, and there's literally people making journals saying trans people don't deserve rights because 'they groom children' and are 'criminals'.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Oh, I know.

He'll use any straw he grasp at to make up an argument against what's going on, is my point.

Sangie

2 months ago

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There's no such thing as centrism

NightWolf714

2 months ago

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I think the difference is that fictional art of cubs does not actually hurt people on a large scale (stating it that was as there are individuals who can be upset by it based on their personal experiences. Nazi things, however, does on a large scale. It wasn't that long ago and there are still people who were alive during it. Not to mention, of course, neo nazis who are reviving it.

So I guess the question is what items that can directly cause harm to groups of people are allowed? Where's the line drawn at? I think that's an important thing for a site to be clear on.

Making art that makes fun of people who like green? Okay, that's not that big of a deal. Making art that promotes the idea of hanging black people? Yeah, that shouldn't fly under "artistic freedom."

So where is the line drawn at?

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Teko

Libertarians are just another flavor of radical right wingers.

Sangie

2 months ago

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Thank you!!

evoyager

2 months, 1 week ago

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Going to be honest I don't pay attention to the administration. I'm only actually interested in how the people I watch and speak with feel. If the site has become hostile to you then I truly understand you stepping away from it. No one should feel forced to spend time in a place where they feel unwelcome.

Echoen

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Popping in here briefly to inform you that Kadm did not, actually, do anything to help deplatform transphobes. In fact, Kadm often got in the way unhelpfully. It was other mods who we will not name that did the good work.

Soundless7

2 months, 1 week ago

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I'm sorry to see you leave from here- but I'll follow you over on Fur and Bluesky at least. ^^

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Soundless7

I'm glad you can, I like you. :3

Soundless7

2 months, 1 week ago

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I like you too~ <3

AmeyBoop

2 months, 1 week ago

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Reading replies here has really... dimmed my enthusiasm for this site. Unfortunately I don't know of any others like it.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ AmeyBoop

*whispers* Itakuuuuu

Yeah basically it's the only good place for cub outside of like... Baraag?

Althooough I do know a little place where it's allowed and the tiny community is friendly and it's classic net intentionally-

https://stellarfur.net/index.php

AmeyBoop

2 months, 1 week ago

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Thank you. I'll look into them when I have the emotional bandwidth.
For some reason I thought Itaku was more of a booru.

As for Baraag, I simply don't like it as a gallery, because it is by no means built to be one. But, compromises must be made.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ AmeyBoop

I don't like Baraag either tbh.

Itaku is like tumblr was, but tighter and less chaotic. :3 My only big complaint is that tagging there is a bit of a pain.

Lloxie

2 months, 1 week ago

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Aethy is kind of baraag's sister site, so there's also that. I just hate twitteresque formats though. It baffles and frustrates me to no end that they got so popular.

LittleFoxoid

2 months ago

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Seconding the recommendation for Aethy, it is similar in format to Baraag and allows Loli/Sho/Cub content but has an explicitly pro-LGBTQIA+ moderation team and standards. I would love to see more people join there, especially more queer people, kinksters, furries and the like. It's really one of the best social media sites that allows for adult content. (I am a little biased as a former moderator though heh :p)

Lloxie

2 months, 1 week ago

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Oh hey, I might just have to check that StellaFur place out. Thanks for posting it!

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Lloxie

It's really laid back and nice. :3

SgtXana

2 months ago

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Hooooly shit I can't remember the last time I say phpBB

ExtinguishedCharmander

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ AmeyBoop

Kinda the closest thing I can think of is Aethy. It's only another social media site (similar to Baraag) but they're permissive of all kinds of artwork while not tolerating hate speech and similar rubbish.

astralHaze

2 months ago

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@ ExtinguishedCharmander

it should be noted both are visible to each other as well and to other fediverse instances that don't block them

Chatin

2 months, 1 week ago

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-reads comments-

Jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick...

AmeyBoop

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Chatin

Yeah, after I made my comment I went back and read more and like... Jeez. Guess you have to be a cis person's idea "trans enough" to get treated decently. Great. My favorite.

At least I don't have to feel bad for using the site because as far as I know, unlike e621, its monetization model doesn't feed on my engagement.

And of course IB doesn't steal as much as possible.

Amaterasu

2 months, 1 week ago

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lmao I never really got along with the mods. Especially after the AI stuff Kadm and GR really grinded my gears. I cant say im surprised that the owner of a website designed to host CP that readily accepted AI even at the extreme disagreement of the actual artists on the site would also be a transphobe trying to mask their bigotry behind the guise of sounding smart over the internet. these things always seem to go hand in hand. honestly its just kind of sad.

This site has really gone to shit which is sad cuz the infrastructure is actually very nice and I've got a ton of problems with FA but its like you said at least they aren't this disgusting with it. I honestly support this decision and think more people should leave. if the mod team cares they will change course otherwise this place will just become more and more condensed with the same shit that it suffers from the same problems as twitter

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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*cough* Funny how cis-gendered nonces are usually Transphobes jes' saying...

The infrastructure is primarily why this has been my favorite furry site for so long. That and as a survivor of childhood sex abuse I have my arguments in favor of cub art as a trauma venting tool in a world with little to no mental health care on the subject, but in modern times nobody wants to hear it so I stopped talking. I didn't appreciate the accusations that came along with being nuanced about it instead of just shaking a rifle and shouting "let's murder everybody, boys! YEEEEHAW"

But yanno... the left is full of critical thinkers as I often say, and that puts us at odds with each-other a lot. Because even critical thinkers can be stupid about something.

People really don't seem to like Kadm, what did he do?

Amaterasu

2 months ago

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I'm not gonna yuck anyone yum as long as its not hurting anyone but im also not really ok with thew idea of sexualizing children under any context and including using it as a vent to sexual abuse and i say this as someone that is also a victim of child sexual abuse. but also, its not my place to decide how someone vents with their trauma and i dont really engage with this type of thing until people try to justify the attraction to minors or characters that look like minors.

that being said theres a lot of overlap between the ideology GR is talking about and literal nazis, hes just trying to "be civil" about it.

Kadm was just annoying and cringe. he said the reason IB doesnt allow 3d art is because it would flood the website with screenshots of 3d models that people didnt make themselves.....

but then say AI art is fine

yeah ok.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to talk to you about it, honestly. x-x You already seem primed to call me pedo right out the gate.

As for Kadm, I got a first hand lesson on him earlier. He emailed me and I got to figure out who he actually is. So uh, yeah, notice he's been removed from the journal. heh

Amaterasu

2 months ago

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I mean, i could have just called you a pedo already and moved on if i really wanted to, but what does that accomplish other than me trying to be mean or hurtful?

i don't think there's ever a case when sexualizing a child is ok and i use that language specifically because you are right there are times when people can talk about or make something that shows the gruesomeness of csam and that in itself isnt sexualizing children.

what I say to people is think about what the attraction is when engaging with the material (no one should feel the need to engage with this to me in comments, this is just a bit of self reflection). think like 1000 year old loli. the age of the character is only there to deflect from the attraction to a character that is designed to act and look like a child. I'm not in the weeds of is it real or is it fake or any of that because i don't think that personally matters when it comes down to what content is it that you're attracted to, and if you're attraction to the content is that they look and act like a child well then there's your answer.

also just so were clear I'm not accusing you of any of these specific things.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

Sorry, I am a bit uh... I don't want to say traumatized about trying to discuss the topic, but whatever the equivalent is of expecting even people you trust to just blow gaskets on you based on past experiences.

So I get a bit extra anxiety-defensive in a 0-60 fashion with little effort on it. I apologize.

We mostly agree, and I mean almost entirely. I think the literal only divide would be I just don't think art is ever going to equal reality. Although I acknowledge it can influence reality, so I'm not uhm... stubborn about that, either.

Edit: Or rather- I acknowledge art doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Amaterasu

2 months ago

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if we were to have this discussion maybe 10 years ago youd probably have been right to assume i would just hit you with the "youre a pedo!" and blah blah blah the rest of the conversation but i understand enough about you to at least understand where you're coming from and im adult enough to know that youre not trying to be smarmy and just trying to use "its a coping mechanism" as a front to do some terrible shit (which sadly a lot of people try to do, its very sick). again i personally wouldn't use that as a coping method. but also its not my place to decide how someone else copes with their trauma.

I also dont think that consuming drawn artwork means you're going to go out and harm real people but thats a very thin line like you said nothing really exists in a vaccuum. and i think people should step back and reflect on what it is they find attractive with the content. because distinctions like that are what can help separate being attracted to cute smol characters from child coded ones.and if what you find sexually gratifying about the content being the child character welllll thats where i find myself at odds with it.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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It's funny you say ten years ago- because that's when I was most actively trying to have the discussion with people. haha That was the time which scarred me from doing so.

For the record I do not advocate sexualizing kids, never have never will- I am being a bit vague about my feelings on the subject so I don't want that misconstrued. I am not a secret map or some shit.

I have a lot of thoughts and observations about mental healthcare and the near total lack of it- and social responsibility people aren't willing to hear- and the dark side of trauma people aren't willing to hear- basically nobody listens to me they just jump straight to the accusations phase. Which is not just upsetting in general, it's also personally triggering having been, yanno, raped.

NightWolf714

2 months ago

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I just wanna say that seeing you and

CookieSkoon

having a pretty civil discussion about this is pretty cool.

Kalrath

2 months ago

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@ NightWolf714

It's almost like this site's refusal to blanket ban people that basically every other place on the internet demonizes is a valuable feature, I wonder if there's something we could learn... oh wait no, everyone who disagrees with us is Hitler. Green standing up for the cub artists is the only reason they still have anywhere after all the other sites banned them, but see how the people he protected attempt to hurt him when that same protection is extended to people they dislike. The site will be better off without those who are so blind to the fact that they're living in glass houses. Hopefully they enjoy being called pedos and doxxed off of bluesky within days of posting the first cub art there.

NightWolf714

2 months ago

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I may be misunderstanding your post, but I think that just because someone defends fictional images of cartoon characters, that doesn't mean that it's okay to handwave things that support very harmful groups of people. Like, there's a pretty big difference in scale there.

Also, like, I've been here long enough where people thought that all furries were into bestiality. Which, obviously, most aren't. It's a false accusation made by assumptions without evidence. But most people who are, say, supporting transphobia as a valid view point, that's a bit different because the evidence is right there.

Also, IB HAS done blanket bans before. Discussions about IRL pedophilia are banned (or at least meant to be according to their rules). It's not a stretch to extend that to other IRL harmful things.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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This is dripping in ignorance.

Nazi = bad. Transphobia = bad. No debates. NONE. NO DEBATES. BAD ALL THE TIME EVER, FOR EVERYBODY.

Conflating it to other topics like cub art is just dodging the issue. I'd take the time to pick it apart more carefully for you but would it even be worth doing?

Kalrath

2 months ago

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Child molesting = bad! And you're a child molester. NO DEBATES. Wait, what's that? Do I hear you perhaps saying that you are not in fact a child molester and my simply declaring you to be one so I can demonize you is unfair? How odd. Perhaps, if you can experience a moment of empathy you may realize that, while Nazis and bigots are bad, a person not agreeing with you is not automatically a Nazi or a bigot, and smearing them with that brush so that you can call for them to be ejected from the place that offered us judgment-free refuge while the rest of the fandom pronounced us as evil pedophiles displays a profound lack of grace, even moreso to go out of your way to attack the person hosting these free services for us out of his own time and money.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

Child molesters ARE bad. Your argument starts off defeating itself you fucking moron. Get lost.

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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"A person not agreeing with you is not a bigot/nazi"

These people say "I don't respect trans people", they say "Trans people deserve to suffer and be molested", they claim "Trans people rape children", and they actively have gone on CookieSkoon's journals and art pieces, especially the VENT art where she's suffering, to mock her and laugh at her.

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about because you're just mimicking the "Not everyone you hate is a nazi" bullshit that allows bigots to ACTUALLY grow and thrive in communities. That's the same shit the Furry Raiders use to infiltrate shit, while wearing a literal modified nazi icon on their arms.

*peers* your profile is empty, no journals, no profile, 14 years old, and you come out to start stirring shit in someone's journal. You're suspicious, yourself. So people also are less likely to trust you in general due to this, just so you know.

SpaceCheeseWiz

2 months, 1 week ago

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This is such an eyeopener of the leadership quality of Inkbunny, holy shit.

I'm not happy with how leadership is handling bad actors, that's not sustainable, much less ethical.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ SpaceCheeseWiz

I don't mean to make light of this but never before has your pfp been more fitting...

SissyLeo

2 months, 1 week ago

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TBH, I am mostly sticking to IB for now to test an add-in I am working on. I'm trying to make a way to bring some of IB's search features to FA to make it easier to find things, but its limited due to FA's current design. Hopefully I can make it more usable!

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

@ SissyLeo

FA is working on forced tagging and filters, so you could work off of that as well.

Also, booru style sites have one of the best tag based searches, but I wish FA had a decent search for fuzzy keywords, not just the tags. People misspell character names all the time.

SissyLeo

2 months, 1 week ago

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Maybe. But I also REALLY love the fact I can search an artists galleries or even based off of whats in my favorites. Like if I wanted to search for all items tagged femboy in my favorites list, its super easy here or on the Booru sites. Not so much on FA. Thats what I am trying to recreate.

roadkillcoffee

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I never really read posts like this, but I do like your art, so to see you deciding not to post on here anymore caught my attention and... yikes. Not at you, but at what I'm learning reading this for once. I haven't read other posts because I just don't have the spoons most days to do so, but I had a rare bit of extra energy today.

As a fellow trans person seeing the interactions here, I'm frankly pretty appalled to see admins using anti-trans talking points so blatantly. Maybe it's for the best I hardly post here myself, because a lot of what I've just read is eye-opening in a viscerally unpleasant way.

So, thanks for bringing this to the attention of others. It's a shame, since IB is one of the few places to post stuff that other sites won't allow (I swear the only other place I've seen is muskratexplodingtesla.con, though I'll check out the other sites you've got listed) but if the staff is going to openly argue using anti-trans points on a trans person's post... fuck that lol

I hope you find better joy on other sites. Your art style is delightful. And as one trans person to another, keep being you. We've always existed, and will continue to, whether they like it or not. 🏳️‍⚧️

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ roadkillcoffee

I'm glad you did read through, and I hope you encourage others to do so. Trans furries need to know we are not welcome here.

Especially artists who can spread the word about it to their own fan bases.

Also I return the sentiment, thank you. :3 To be honest I hate returning to a long repressed militant side of myself but it was either this or despair...

Lloxie

2 months, 1 week ago

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They're lucky there's no suitable substitute for this site yet. I stopped linking to it in my carrd after the whole AI tolerance shit. This is just icing on the shit cake. We really need a new alternative to crop up...

Sangie

2 months ago

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@ Lloxie

https://furtastic.art/ <3

Lloxie

2 months ago

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@ Sangie

Furtastic is a bit glitchy at times, and seems that it's being developed very slowly, as far as I can tell. Even kind of abandoned at times. I used it for a little while, but for the time being I'm holding off until it feels more complete and alive. Last I checked, you can't edit or delete things you've already posted, which is... not okay.

Jagadid

2 months, 1 week ago

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"Centrism" is a really funny term, especially when the 'center' of the two ideals being discussed is between the extreme regressive and the conservative. This needs an extra sentence or two to explain: The Republican party is the regressive party; it's focused greatly on deconstructing what is already there simply on the 'it was like this once' argument. The Democratic party is the conservative end as they have been fighting for the status quo while it's been moving underneath them.
So basically "Centrist" in this regard is just "Less extreme regressive".

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Jagadid

Exactly. American (and even Canadian, to be honest) centrists do not realize they are just right wing- because they haven't woken up yet to how radically right wing north America as a whole actually is. Especially the US.

I know. I used to BE a centrist. What set me apart was that once people stopped triggering my mental health issues and started actually having a conversation- I was willing to listen. Which is why I tend to approach people as frankly but maturely as I can, not really losing my temper until they just triple down on their BS after several exchanges where it becomes clear they are just being a jackass intentionally.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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I'm a true centrist, so according to the US *looks at palm* lmao, I'm a far left extremist. Go figure.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

That's kinda how I feel tbh. haha

I am really only a "radical leftist" In the US. In Europe I'd be a leftward centrist. Only in the US are basic human rights and science and literacy considered radical.

Jagadid

2 months, 1 week ago

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It's wild how having empathy for other human beings and recognizing that every part of the planet is owned by some person with a police force or army behind them means that there's an obligation to take care of other people because they can't just leave.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Jagadid

Privilege is a hell of a drug. Stupidity is a horrible disease.

Zeikcied

2 months, 1 week ago

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GreenReaper is in the UK, though. Born and raised there, apparently.

I don't know how the UK political spectrum compares to the US, but that's where his views are coming from.

Or, perhaps we should start calling GreenReaper "she," since GR seems to think the pronouns the speaker wishes to use are more important than the pronouns the listener wishes to have used.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

The UK is no better- that's where north America's bullshit comes from. Sans maybe modern Scotland.

The UK is in some ways even worse, until VERY recently.

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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So much fucking anti-trans bullshit in the UK... *sigh* And their poster child of TERFs, JKJK...

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

(JKJK) nice lol

Also fuck her straight to Hell, seriously.

Sakuro

2 months, 1 week ago

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As a simple, small, but very old fandom member who has nothing to do with any of this,
it's just ridiculous to read through all of this.
I miss the old fandom where everyone didn't immediately scratch each other's eyes out and split up over everything...

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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I know we always had drama in this fandom. I remember the burned furs, I remember people getting bent up about Bernal, I remember Sibe- etc.

But you're right we did have a greater sense of community even as recently as the 2010's.

The Trump era has been a venomous time for everybody in every walk of life.

Sakuro

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Dont...just, dont do this...Don't blame it on any political issues. its not Trump, Obama, Putin or anyone else !
It's the community. Back then, it was simply about liking anthro characters and the community around them. Everyone was welcome and allowed to like or dislike whatever they wanted. For example, if you said you didn't like gay (I'm gay myself), lesbian, or trans things, that was OK. You can dislike it, its ok aslong as we tolerate each other. Now, everyone attacks each other for having the wrong opinions or preferences. You're immediately a transphobe, a bigot, an evil person, or even a Nazi, and you have no place in the fandom.
And I'll admit, I personally don't like transsexuality, it's just not my thing. Do I hate you or attack you because of it? Of course not. Why would I do that ? That would be ridiculous. I still respect you as a person and think you are a great artist

I've been in the fandom since the early 2000s and have watched (mostly as a silent observer) and see how it's slowly falling apart from the inside because everyone's just yelling at each other about everything.

I'm so sick of this constant drama about everything. It would be nice if everyone could just chill out a bit and stop constantly arguing, please...

Damn...I've written way more than I intended, i feel uncomfortable writing so much but this topic is starting to get to me because the fandom has always been very important to me.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I've been here slightly longer than you and it IS in fact the socio-political climate affecting the fandom from outside. What a weird take to pretend that's not the case.

The reason things became less tolerable is because social awareness evolved. Attacks against people's safety and rights in the real world progressed. Simple requests got nuclear level push-back from people who just could not be assed to change their behavior even slightly for the sake of others.

You've got a head in sand problem. People aren't fighting "just because". People are fighting because there's a very real power imbalance and a clear cut set of victims, and a ton of denial and enabling from... people like you.

Addendum: I don't really want your respect. I want my safety and my rights.

Sakuro

2 months, 1 week ago

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People like me ? Ah...so I'm part of the problem, thanks.
I won't argue any further, I think it was a mistake to write...

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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You are if you expected me to simply nod in agreement with you.

You need to learn to be able to be wrong. I haven't even been unfair to you or angry or mean. I'm as level headed about it can be- but you still won't listen.

So yes, you are part of the problem.

Amaterasu

2 months ago

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everything is political

we literally cannot live in a society without politics. it affects everyone. if they banned trans people a lot of artists you might like would simply stop existing.

also no one told you to say you don't like transgender people, but since you offered up that information you shouldn't immediately get defensive just for being called out on it. if you think its a fetish you'd be wrong. imagine if people said you being gay was a fetish. if you don't want to date trans people okay? you don't have to. you can be into whom ever you want

I will say, if you need to separate trans people out from cis people in your dating pool you're not really ok with trans people. if you want your men to have penises that's one thing. if you want your men to be born men that's something completely different

SpoonFox

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

I have seen people state that trans deserve to be murdered. I have seen people state trans people are 'grooming children' and 'raping children'. I have seen people saying trans people do not belong in the furry fandom. All of these people have been on this site before, or on FA before. Some of these people were old guard from my era 25 years ago. Only in the past 9 years have they started transitioning to forcing this bigotry into the fandom as they changed their perspectives. People like Karno who think trans people don't deserve rights, people like Cigar skunk who wish literal violence on others, people like Roarey who FREQUENTLY throw transphobic rhetoric to give a reason to harass trans people.

You sit here saying this is equal to your 'dislike of transsexuality', when these people want transgender people to die, so that they never see them again. This is not a case of "Not my cup of tea", this is pure unbridled hatred towards a marginalized people.

And don't fucking get me started on 4chan-type furries and the fucking Furry Raider crowd...

Drama has always existed. Furry Drama *TM* has always existed. Back in the day, it was Something Awful and Burnt Furs. It was the Furnet admin drama. It was the 'Well, Lenny fucked a raccoon, so we gotta kick him from the room' (OzFurs joke). It was 'This server/room owner is unstable and pushing people out' or 'admin abuse'. Furries are unstable to begin with with a higher chance for clashing with one another for one reason or another.

I WOULD LOVE if people would chill and stop wishing death on my friends, but guess what? They don't want that. They want my friends to die and suffer. Just like a furry who kept coming into Skoon's vent journals and art pieces mocking her and telling her rude ass shit. She has precedent for these journals, because she has been a VICTIM of these attacks. She is not an aggressor.

EDIT one more thing: Transgender is not a fetish. It's an ailment of body dysmorphia.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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"And I'll admit, I personally don't like transsexuality, it's just not my thing"

I also want to address this for a moment.

Trans-sexuality is an outdated medical term. We are Transgender. Transfem, Transmasc, Transwoman or Transman. What have you. Transsexual is considered alienating because of its past usage against us- and equating gender identity to sex or sexuality.

The "it's just not my thing" implies you think of being Transgender as a kink. Which is highly offensive as it not only plays into the objectification of Transwomen but also the dismissal and diminishing of our validity.

What you mean to say, is that you are not Trans. Which is fine, you don't have to be. You don't have to be attracted to Trans people. What you should do, though, (especially if you espouse to respect any of us) is learn proper nomenclature, and stop objectifying or sexualizing the identity.

Yes, you can sexualize something without being aroused by it.

NightWolf714

2 months ago

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"And I'll admit, I personally don't like transsexuality, it's just not my thing. Do I hate you or attack you because of it? Of course not. Why would I do that ? That would be ridiculous. I still respect you as a person and think you are a great artist"

That ... is an attack though. Think about it. What if I said, "I personally don't like black people. It's just not my thing." That's be pretty racist, right? Or "I personally don't like gays. It's just not my thing." That's not okay.

I've been in this fandom for a very long time. The difference is the same as the "real world;" people are trying to argue harmful ideas as being okay. We were never okay with transphobes or nazis in the fandom, but now we have people who think that if you call out such folks, you're the problem and not the literal bigots. Also, lol, the furry fandom has ALWAYS had drama, so the nostalgic glasses aren't exactly realistic.

Makroth

2 months ago

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You live in a different, far more isolated world than the rest of us.

anz100

1 month, 4 weeks ago

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You're gay but don't like trans people? You wouldn't have fucking rights of it wasn't for trans women throwing bricks at cops in 1969, show some fucking respect

CookieSkoon

1 month, 4 weeks ago

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@ anz100

SO many "up their own ass" cis-gays do not understand this.

There is no LGBQ without the T.

IGSA101

2 months, 1 week ago

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Saying that IB is a home for the far right of the furry fandom is nuts. The inkbunny community is so heavily left wing that multiple center right furs have abandoned it outright because they feel unaccepted here. Even center left people like me get plenty of shit for not thinking the "right" things all the time.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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Who even are you. People I have never seen or heard of showing up just to argue with me when they have zero context is not very convincing.

Sangie

2 months ago

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The fuck you talking about xD

Makroth

1 month, 2 weeks ago

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Please name a few. At least one.

IGSA101

1 month, 2 weeks ago

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@ Makroth

https://inkbunny.net/RoareyRaccoon

He specifically says in his final journal that lack of acceptance of him is his main reason for leaving. I'd provide more, but the other three I know deleted their accounts wholesale. Well, there's carpetwurm, but he didn't leave inkbunny for long, and politics wasn't his express reason for leaving when he did.

Makroth

1 month, 2 weeks ago

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He's not center-right tough. He's a transphobic stalker.

CookieSkoon

1 month, 2 weeks ago

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Roarey is a far right Maga extremist Transphobe who got his ass got by being a shit head. You are so fucking full of crap.

"I know three who deleted their accounts" - Cannot name them.

SpoonFox

1 month, 2 weeks ago

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... ... EXCUSE ME?!

Roarey would troll the fuck out of anyone who questioned his insane political bullshit. He would frequently get his group of cronies to harass other users, and he was VEHEMENTLY against trans people, stating disgusting things involving them. He would scream politics constantly without understanding how government works, what socialism, communism, and fascism is (only the narrow definitions he's given them), and his fanbase would come to his rescue anytime ANYONE would question him.

He is one of the most transphobic furries I've ever met, even wishing violence upon them, and spreading the bullshit "They groom children" conspiracies.

Roler42

2 months, 1 week ago

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Between Deviantart allowing and promoting AI slop, Twitter becoming a Nazi bar, and this...

Being an online artist is exhausting...

Also, lmao, I was gonna look up the profile for this green guy, but just a few minutes reading the comments here told me everything I needed to know...

I'm glad another artist I follow sent me this way, thanks for all the heads up, I guess it's time to build up another nsfw gallery somewhere else...

Also I'm sorry you have to deal with all this BS.

CookieSkoon

2 months, 1 week ago

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@ Roler42

Being an online artist is exhausting- that is THE statement. heh

Youtubers and the sort get a lot more attention because they have much larger audiences, and people acknowledge how their jobs have begun to drain their lives of joy and purpose because of the nature of the modern internet. What people haven't begun to notice yet is that the exact same thing, for many of the exact same reasons is happening in the art world. Any fandom, pick one.

Thank you, though, for dropping some words. I am actually glad this is getting around because... damn.

Amphy139

2 months, 1 week ago

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Trans rights are human rights. And Nazi punks fuck off. Fuck you GreenReaper, leave the fandom forever.

fourward

2 months, 1 week ago

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I hope you find success in your travels. I'll be sure to follow you on other websites.

As a "centrist", reading GR's replies really put into perspective what kind of person he is, and it's very disappointing. his talking points and his ideals are far from being a centrist. It's one thing allowing taboo-related themed art, but its a whole another thing allowing hate, bigotry, misinformation, harassment towards one another because "you have the ability to block" and not moderating it, while allegedly censoring hate, harassment, retaliation from the "opposing party". Like... that's not being a centrist.

nickthemoonwolf

2 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 2 months, 1 week ago by Owner

Well this journal was very useful. If there was ANY doubt left about green being both a transphobe and a nazi apologist, it should be well and truly dead and buried now. This site has always had a problem with housing the worst people this fandom has to offer (see: actual pedophiles)

For the record, the blacklist system existing is not an excuse to let the nazis into your bar.
Honest to god, having a better submissions page and gallery can only carry you so far.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ nickthemoonwolf

I did not expect this to become what it is, but I am glad it did. SAD it did... but wow. It needed to happen.

Amaterasu

2 months ago

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honestly GR outing himself did more for people on the fence about it so even if you hate to see a transphobe atleast he outed himself so everyone can see him for who he is

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Whether or not it'll actually accomplish anything... we'll see.

I think in a month nobody will remember this. I expect nothing. But I also have far less confidence than I may appear to.

Amaterasu

2 months ago

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this will only continue the more the mods continue to act like this and more people will be in your position and leave. but it is good that GR feels the need to show his ass when this happens so people can see what his policies for this site are.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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I... think my opinion has shifted. I have been shown how many other artists and users are actually responding.

Zeikcied

2 months ago

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Yeah... GreenReaper's comments from this journal have been getting spread around a bit. And I've not seen a single person who reacted positively in any way. Some weren't shocked, while others were disgusted. I notice GR himself stopped commenting.

There's just no real alternative to IB, but hopefully this might spur someone to make one. A site that allows cub porn, as well as text stories. Writers need a safe place, too. It's not all about visual art.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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For now- https://stellarfur.net/index.php

PatchyDragon

2 months ago

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I hadn't really been following the vibes on this site that closely, but yeah, reading the comments? I don't feel safe here either, and I'm not even trans!

MethidMan

2 months ago

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@ PatchyDragon

I'm neither trans nor do I even post here, and having read GR's comments I'm disgusted with this site enough to consider deleting my account entirely...

TheKaiser

2 months ago

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Dang Sorry to see you go :(

Lousy jerks messing with ya i hope get a Visit from karma

kixonruut

2 months ago

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I miss the old fandom where everyone didn't immediately scratch each other's eyes out and split up over everything

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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@ kixonruut

*waves paw* Yo, old guard here, that shit still happened back in the day, just it was less publicized without social media/journals readily being available. It's just more noticeable, and with more people in the fandom in general, well... 1% of 1000 is only 10, but 1% of 100,000 is 1,000... So it becomes way more present, even if the percentile hasn't changed. (Not saying it's 1%, just giving a quick maths example :P)

The furnet days had its own brand of drama, that's the kind I experienced most.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

https://inkbunny.net/j/553815#commentid_2812080

That's a direct quote from the above. Is this guy a bot?

LudashMoogle

2 months ago

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Well, this profile is on GR's shout box praising him for the boldness of standing his ground on "freedom of speech"

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ LudashMoogle

Not surprising, considering Spoonfox and I sussed out that that person is an active bigot. Possibly a sock puppet for one we both know.

That's the kind of people Green is aligning himself with.

Nishi

2 months ago

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Best wishes CookieSkoon! :3 Your journal here helped a lot - so at least if this is where you slow down using InkBunny, you can feel proud for helping expose GreenReaper for what he really is, in a way everyone else can easily see! :3 Even if he has to lie and deny and bury himself deep, it's nice to see more people get to know the truth. (And of course, all he had to do was open his big mouth and say it himself publicly on the internet, haha.)

You helped spread awareness, and even got old friends back onto other sites. :3 There were a lot of positives to this post in the end. I'm sure you don't need my thanks, but thank you~!

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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@ Nishi

You know reaper as much as I. He's not going to lie, because he doesn't believe he's in the wrong. I still wish he would learn that he's got it wrong, and that grudges won't do much over the years other than foster a hatred in an ever evolving world. *sighs* Green, if you do read this, I don't hate you, I just want you to do better, that's all. I know you're capable... But you have to want to change for the better. And understand that the bigotry and vitriol on the site pushes away artists, trans or not, because it's bad for business to even be associated with that to begin with.

Erinnern

2 months ago

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Yeah. I don't hate Green because I DO believe he can do better, he is capable of improving since I've grown up in the same type of environment as him, it takes a fuckload of work and willpower to rid yourself of the behaviours learned from hateful environments but if the person in question is unwilling to change then they'll be damned for all eternity.

CookieSkoon

2 months ago

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@ Nishi

I appreciate your words. <3

Kupok

2 months ago

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@ Nishi

GR was warned after Nicol the Red Panda passed that GR needed to reassess some things about identity, a long long time ago. GR had a lot of time to think about who GR's positions may hurt.

I'm not sure this incident will change GR any more then the treehouse incident did.

SpoonFox

2 months ago

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@ Kupok

Oh fuck... I forgot about that... *pours one out* Nicol was a very good friend of mine... :< I had repressed memories of this incident...

ArenConcordia

2 months ago

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Honestly, I just wish people could simply act like decent human beings to one another. I don't care if you hate me, just keep it to yourself, and you can hate me all you want. But everyone has to broadcast their unfiltered opinions on how x group is the problem. *sigh* I'll be following you everywhere else, hon, and I hope you are successful and happier for leaving this place behind.

Monolith

2 months ago

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Can't go anywhere without some stupid high and mighty fuck trying to justify their position with their shitty world views. I tried to be nice and it wasn't working. If I have to sit and listen to another fucking cue, dog whistle, or conservative out of touch AI logic slop I am going to manufacture robots that will bludgeon these losers to death with dicks.

I am so fucking done with all the unasked for advice from the cockservatives and all the gatekeeping of me finding success because "ITZ NOT THA WAY I DUN IT." No, fuck you, you fucking fucker I can't stand the fact that no matter what I do or take interest in I have to stay in the crab bucket with the right wing filth bringing me down.

Then THIS motherfucker comes in here and is like "WE NEED TO MAKE IT A PLACE FOR ALL SIDES" The only sides I want are the fuckin fries from Jong John Silver's not some mentally dilapidated righty whitey nazi clown cryptrobro AI fucker who is the sole reason things on the internet go to shit because they are the first to be like "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" Nah man, fuck them kids. They'll grow up to be right wing rejects as well and we will see even more of their deranged bullshit down the road.

I am not trying to be silly here, I am so FUCKING DONE with the crowd who seeks to hurt the people who have lifted me up more than my own fucking family. I am lucky enough to be where I am now but it was all that right mentality bullshit that kneecapped me growing. Though I will never give up, shit's gonna be fucking rough. I just want to art, but sheesh. I already was having difficulty with this place.

Lloxie

2 months ago

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Edited 2 months ago by Owner

-zap- This was supposed to be a reply to a comment, but I goofed.

Makroth

2 months ago

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This comment section really helped me understand the issue. But i think i'll stay here a while longer. If anything, i like the layout of this site better than Stellarfur.

Omatic

2 months ago

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Well, that's disappointing to learn. I've used this site for years as a bit of a refuge where I can post artwork that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere. I try to foster a welcoming environment and oppose bigotry whenever I can. Hopefully my message of support will connect with other like-minded people.

This site still has my biggest audience, so it's hard to say whether it would be better to stay or leave (I don't blame anyone for wanting to leave.) I just wish there were a better alternative, since I don't know if any other cub art sites with a user interface as good as this one.

CutepawsBooru

2 months ago

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@ Omatic

Would love to have you on our site! We all young characters from all animals!

https://cutepa.ws

Makroth

1 month, 4 weeks ago

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@ CutepawsBooru

That just looks like a booru. Any other cub sites like Inkbunny?

Ketsa

2 months ago

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I read this all from top to bottom and it's deeply saddened me...

Trans rights are human rights

Frostbite80

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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oh. :c

Frostbite80

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ Frostbite80

I heard it was bad...just these replies oof :/

CookieSkoon

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ Frostbite80

You should see the amount of toe-sucking Green is getting from people who use terms like "trans cultists" and are addicted to respectability politics.

Frostbite80

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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I heard from an artist friend what was going on, and they arent even an inkbunny user, sites been moving this way for a while, and its a self feeding cycle, more people see this stuff, hate it and are turned away, while the more extreme ones, who like what they hear, stay. Been slowly moving to FA, it works for me and what I draw anyway.
This site does not cater to artists or creatives. It caters to tech bros and art collectors, the ones that dedicate their lives to sifting through E6 keywords, making sure every trans character has a "Futa" tag. Its only real selling point is "We dont ban cub." Fair, but its turning fast into the "anything goes" site. AI, Fash shit, etc. It's turning into fucking X/Twitter, thats really what it is. "Free speech absolutist" :/

CookieSkoon

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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@ Frostbite80

This is basically where the furry raiders hang out, yeah. It's the Nazi bar.

Frostbite80

1 month, 3 weeks ago

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