Inkbunny

I wanted this to be black and white because this is really about that last line: which do you value more? Would you lose one to gain/preserve the other?

Actually, this idea germinated in a discussion we already had. But I'd be happy to discuss it further.

ZephonTsol

8 years, 4 months ago

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Also, something further I feel must be stated as I have looked over most of the other answers and noticed one glaringly obvious fact that everyone is either forgetting or is playing off through some form of patriotism/freedom.

The choice is not that easy because, in the end, you are choosing to end someone's life. That weight will be on YOUR shoulders from the point you push the button onwards. You can mask it with some kind of heroism, but many of us do not really understand what it means to end a life. We write about it, we talk about it, even fantasize about it, but most of us have never done it, not even me. Certainly, we've never done it in the pursuit of freedom, justice, and all that.

I would be more scared if you *wouldn't* pause to consider this before pushing the button...because, in that end, what honestly makes you any different from the dictator? If they're as evil as portrayed (i.e. willing to end lives to get their own way), what honestly makes you better than they? Because you say so? Because you believe it?

Most of us are portraying this selfless sense of humanity, but I believe many of us really would crumble at the final altar and find it hard to not only end a life but to end an entire civilization and be willing to bear that burden for the rest of our lives. It simply is just not an easy answer and, well, for anyone to make it sound easy, I would be worried for them and for their view on life.

I stand by what I said: while it's a neat thought experiment, the answer is that you absolutely cannot adhere to black or white on the choice because it isn't just about freedom versus tradition. It's a person to person question, but the entire grasp of this MUST be considered before your answer is given.

If I were to be held at gunpoint and forced to make the choice...then I would not push the button. Because as is clear by now, I refuse to believe it this simple and refuse to take that massive burden of destruction, chaos, and death upon my shoulders without finding a better way first.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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Edited 8 years, 4 months ago by Owner

>The choice is not that easy because, in the end, you are choosing to end someone's life. That weight will be on YOUR shoulders from the point you push the button onwards.

That is definitely a worthwhile consideration, and I am surprised it hasn't been brought up yet.

>because, in that end, what honestly makes you any different from the dictator? If they're as evil as portrayed (i.e. willing to end lives to get their own way), what honestly makes you better than they? Because you say so? Because you believe it?

What makes a policeman arresting a suspect different from a kidnapper abducting their victim? To me, this has always been an incredibly easy question. The difference is between harming an innocent person for selfish gain, and harming someone who has hurt others, to stop them from further hurting others. The moral line is, 'are you killing in immediate defense of others, and is your target someone who has shown clearly that they will never voluntarily choose to stop killing innocents?'

>Most of us are portraying this selfless sense of humanity, but I believe many of us really would crumble at the final altar and find it hard to not only end a life but to end an entire civilization and be willing to bear that burden for the rest of our lives.

That's one of the things I'm really interested in: could someone know all of that, and push the button anyway? Being fully aware of the repercussions and consequences. Being aware that they might be hated forever for their choice. Knowing they will be destroying things that are irreplaceable. If they were certain that life would never change for the better unless they pushed that button, could anyone carry that burden's full weight?

>It simply is just not an easy answer and, well, for anyone to make it sound easy, I would be worried for them and for their view on life.

I do wonder, if everyone who answered me (here and on Imgur) were put into a Derren-Brown-esque situation where they had to do this for real, would their actions match their answers?

>If I were to be held at gunpoint and forced to make the choice...then I would not push the button. Because as is clear by now, I refuse to believe it this simple and refuse to take that massive burden of destruction, chaos, and death upon my shoulders without finding a better way first.

I can accept that, yet at the same time think that it's like refusing to take the Kobayashi Maru test. I wanted to construct a question that asks, if there are no wholly good answers, how do you weigh the ones you have? I heard recently, something that stuck with me: "In real life there are no solutions, only trade-offs." It's a bit of a generalization, but the point being, there are very rarely situations where everyone comes out happy. Also, we can sometimes let bad situations fester forever because we wait around for a perfect solution, instead of taking a merely good one that gets the job done now but with compromises. Racial integration is a good example. We might have had less racism in the long run if integration was not forced onto society by the government, resulting in bigots feeling disenfranchised, thus doubling down on their bigotry. But could we in good conscience have done nothing and let time heal that wound? Could the government really have said to the country's minorities, 'You guys just have to suck it up and deal with it until the bigots are naturally ready to stop being assholes.'? I'm similarly glad that the supreme court's ruling on gay marriage overturned so many democratically-voted-for state laws against it. Sometimes the will of the people is wrong and cruel. Sometimes the right thing to do is to tell the majority to fuck themselves, and piss them off for the sake of a greater good they don't understand. But WHEN to do that is what fascinates me. When, in doing that, are you saving people from fascism, or committing it?

Feryl

8 years, 5 months ago

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I would push the button without hesitation. If things are as bad as stated, then life is regarded as expendable by the establishment already. The long-term damage they will bring & the horrors of living in a world of never knowing if you or your loved ones will be killed tomorrow is unbearable. Nature, culture, life itself will find a way to flourish. To ensure the freedoms & happiness of future generations, such a sacrifice is trivial.

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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@ Feryl

A very well-put answer!

ZephonTsol

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ Feryl

Here's the unspoken thing though: you're making a decision that not only affects you, but who knows how many more. And some of them may, in fact, not be as willing to change their values or beliefs because a stranger chose for them. If you push the button in freedom, the only one exercising freedom here is you...and you're pushing your belief of freedom upon the rest, regardless of what they may believe.

It really is not as simple as you stated. After all...is this main question everyone's point of view? Or just yours?

Food for thought.

Feryl

8 years, 4 months ago

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It's actually very clear that everyone is terrified & miserable as outlined in the 3rd sentence. By his detailed description, there's little else to consider. I'm going by the horrific conditions he clearly states & no "what ifs."

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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You've cut to the heart of the matter, Zeph. You'd indeed be forcing your choice on everyone else. You'd be doing it because you know what's best for them. Or maybe you don't, and you know that you can't.

(Now that I think of it, this is a bit like the ending to DXHR.)

Chaon

8 years, 5 months ago

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Depends on my position in said dictatorship. If not immediately threatened, tradition. If actively targeted by the regime then survival.
Since l agree with the above. Freedom is illusion

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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@ Chaon

I hadn't considered that angle. But essentially, I'm thinking of the kind of supervillain-type dictator who keeps his own people in constant fear and punishes disloyalty (real or accused) with death.

Chaon

8 years, 5 months ago

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No matter how villanious the dictator there is still stability in familiarity. That itself lends comfort. Better the monster one knows than the unknown threat.
Although the button may indeed remove any would be dictator from the equation other threats remain to fill the vacuum when tradition is misplaced. Losing the familiarity might affect surrounding climate in ways one has not considered and the impact would be worse if unexpected

So far better the dictator, who is a threat everyone knows, than a possible unexpected disaster. At least with a known threat one can plan to avoid any fallout and minimize losses. As a citizen in said dictators rule, l would also know my place and how to avoid risks. Assuming l havent been doing something incredibly stupid and up in front of firing squad already.

If about to be sentenced to death though my survival takes priority over long term fallout

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ Chaon

That is certainly a practical, realistic outlook on it. I have to admit, this same line of thought factored into my voting decision last November.

Blackraven2

8 years, 5 months ago

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This is less about freedom vs tradition.

Its Order versus Chaos. Stagnation versus Flux. Law versus Anarchy.

In the language of Physics, it would be called the "Entropy Button". Break the world apart for the chance of a better one.

Are you Michael? Or are you Lucifer?

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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Honestly, I'm asking this to try to get a sense of how other people feel about this. I know what I would choose, but I want to know if I'm alone or part of a majority.

I was a bit surprised: I asked this on Imgur and the responses were unanimously in favor of pushing the button.

Blackraven2

8 years, 5 months ago

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The thing is, dictatorships like that destroy tradition and history anyway in order to establish their own. Think of the Nazi cult, buddha statues destroyed by Taliban, burning of books and entire populations of heretics by the Catholic Church and Allied kings.

These thingsnever end pretty. The result is the same, you only skip a few decades and generations of suffering.

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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In this case, the only culture anyone in this world has ever known is that of the dictator's design. So the people would be starting from scratch, and very possibly would just try to recreate things as they were, even if that's now impossible.

Blackraven2

8 years, 5 months ago

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Ah forgot the answer... There be light!!!

Alfador

8 years, 5 months ago

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Need more information. Is the dictator systematically destroying all these things already? If not, we should probably find a better way of accomplishing his downfall. If so, what makes me or any other button-presser different? Tradition or not, I strongly dislike the idea of eradicating art and literature, not to mention the bit about native animals going extinct. I'm just remembering here the tiny little puff of news that should have been worldwide uproar, when the Taliban started dynamiting old Buddhist statues.

There are many ways to take out a dictator. A button with that much collateral damage seems like it should only be an absolute last resort.

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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@ Alfador

Well thought-out, Alfie.

>Is the dictator systematically destroying all these things already?

In this case, there has never been any culture but what the dictator has designed.

>If so, what makes me or any other button-presser different?

Nothing. You just happen to be the one with the button in front of you. That's why I'm asking this of lots of people: I want to see what most people choose.

>Tradition or not, I strongly dislike the idea of eradicating art and literature, not to mention the bit about native animals going extinct. I'm just remembering here the tiny little puff of news that should have been worldwide uproar, when the Taliban started dynamiting old Buddhist statues.

Exactly. That's meant to be horrible and worrisome. It's meant to be a choice where there are strong negative consequences to either decision, and you have to weigh which is more bearable.

>There are many ways to take out a dictator. A button with that much collateral damage seems like it should only be an absolute last resort.

I was imagining it is, the dictatorship has evolved in such a way that the dictator is a load-bearing boss, essentially. Like if you had a post-technological society, where only the dictator knew how to run the remaining machines.

EricAdler

8 years, 4 months ago

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"	AlexReynard wrote:
	Well thought-out, Alfie. >Is the dictator systematically destroying all these things already? In this case, there has never been any culture but what the dictator has designed.

In that case there is no 'culture,' only 'what the dictator likes,' and no 'tradition,' only 'what the dictator says is good.'

Gimme the button, I'll press it.
Twice.

Now if this was "Press the button to eliminate Hitler, however ALL of German History will be erased as well." Then the cost is clearly too high to use the button.

EricAdler

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ EricAdler

The button cannot be used, but rifles still can be.

The easy way may be a trap, but we can still win our Freedom while maintaining the best of our Culture.

#TakingAThirdOption

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ EricAdler

>Now if this was "Press the button to eliminate Hitler, however ALL of German History will be erased as well." Then the cost is clearly too high to use the button.

Ah, but why do you say so? Could you weigh all of German history against the lives lost in WWII?

>The easy way may be a trap, but we can still win our Freedom while maintaining the best of our Culture.

Part of why I structured the question this way was that, in my original idea, the dictator is not a simple human. Imagine something like Skynet. You could send millions of men with rifles against it and they'd lose. A near-supernaturally-omnipresent enemy like that would likely have to be taken out with some kind of all-or-nothing plan.

EricAdler

8 years, 4 months ago

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"	AlexReynard wrote:
	Ah, but why do you say so? Could you weigh all of German history against the lives lost in WWII?

Immanuel Kant
Nicolas Copernicus
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Johann Sebastian Bach
Verner von Braun
Albert Einstein
Ludwig II of Bavaria, aka 'Mad King Ludwig,' aka 'unser kini (our darling king)'

...the list goes on. If eliminating Hitler means erasing these great men and their accomplishments, then the price is too high. The button destroys the very things I wish to preserve.

Every Free society has previously been under the despotic rule of a dictator. History shows a trend, that if a people struggle hard enough and long enough, they WILL earn their freedom.
Then they just have to fight to KEEP it.

The reason I would push the button if the 'culture' is crafted by the dictator is because that is exactly what dictators do: they destroy the links to the past, and then when the people do not have a history to cling to, he rewrites a new history, and reshapes the way the people think through that.

Norithics

8 years, 5 months ago

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It would just make things worse.

If people don't have to struggle to get what they want, what they desperately need, they don't appreciate it, and don't learn the lesson of it. Removing a dictator with the push of a button just ensures that every person becomes that dictator. It's only through having to rise together to overcome adversity that we can agree what plagues us in the first place, and without that crucial step, the future is doomed to a false start.

The only situation in which I could even conceive that button being useful is if it gave Science enough time to give us the tools to mitigate our own animal nature. To find ways to preserve but limit the pathos of our fear, our avarice. If crisis was at the door, and this was the only thing that could bring us over that hurdle before it was too late... then it would be a valid option. Otherwise?

Magic has no place in the lives of humans.

ScottySkunk

8 years, 5 months ago

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your answer is far more thoughtful then mine.. but then... i just woke up. lol.

Blackraven2

8 years, 5 months ago

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But isn't standing together and rising as one going to end up the same as if the button had been pressed anway?

History is not exactly ful of peaseful revolutions. There are some, but for every one of those you find 10 that ended in bloody tragedy, and the dictator remaindin power, ruling even more ruthless than before.

For this to work you need leaders that see to reason and value life of the people more than their own power. And among surpreme leaders, this is exceptionally rare.

JustLurking

8 years, 5 months ago

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Edited 8 years, 5 months ago by Owner

"	Blackraven2 wrote:
	But isn't standing together and rising as one going to end up the same as if the button had been pressed anway?

I think the idea is that pressing the button is a total-erase of your civilisation. Not-pressing means bloody war and maybe being able to salvage some of parts of your society afterwards.

Norithics

8 years, 5 months ago

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No, it's the same end result, but the legacy is what I'm concerned with. Work hard to remove a dictator, and people pay a price- therefore they work to make sure it won't happen again, even it it's just within their lifetime. Take all their problems away, and hey, that was easy, why shouldn't everything else be easy? Maybe that guy wasn't so bad.

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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Very, very, very good answer.

I guess then the question becomes, how much adversity is too much? At what point does it go from the right amount to encourage struggle, growth, and empathy, to causing apathy and depression? Another way you could think of this experiment is if you know of an abusive family that beats their children. The children have never known any other family or way of life, and calling the police might leave them in foster care or homeless. Do you report them anyway? Is the trauma of brutality worse than the trauma of losing everything solid and normal in your life?

Norithics

8 years, 5 months ago

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Well, the example with the children isn't really analogous; if you're not in a position to have an intervention with the abuser (and can protect the abused from retribution), then you should call immediately, because their lives might be in danger.

But for the larger political example, the simple answer is that people decide how much is too much. It's like a constant arms race between how docile they can make their citizens versus how much abuse people are willing to put up with. It's hard to know where things are going.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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>But for the larger political example, the simple answer is that people decide how much is too much. It's like a constant arms race between how docile they can make their citizens versus how much abuse people are willing to put up with. It's hard to know where things are going.

That line, and when to cross it, are one of the things I'm really trying to explore. Adults should have autonomy, yes. But, like, if your friend has a damaging addiction, at what point should you step in? If a family member is delusional, at what point should you have them committed? And if a society has known nothing but dictatorship, to the point where they will defend the system reflexively, can you in good conscience take that all away from them? What if you had the power to solve everyone's worst problems, knowing they might not now be able to cope with such a drastic change in their life, and they may hate you for it?

ScottySkunk

8 years, 5 months ago

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push the button. the time for change is needed.

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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@ ScottySkunk

ScottySkunk

8 years, 5 months ago

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lol wrong kinda change silly fox. *hugs* besides... i only wear daipers for lexi.. with lexi... in the same daiper. lol Honestly though. its easy for me to push the button ive seen so many established suffering engines (things like the usa prison system) and so many other places doing things better, that i would rather ditch old and cruel traditions for something new. Also it would ditch the old corrupt powers.. so. we could try anew... and hopfully get it right.

First new rule id make.. No sexually oppressing anyone. ever.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ ScottySkunk

>besides... i only wear daipers for lexi.. with lexi... in the same daiper.

Yum. :9

>Honestly though. its easy for me to push the button ive seen so many established suffering engines (things like the usa prison system) and so many other places doing things better, that i would rather ditch old and cruel traditions for something new. Also it would ditch the old corrupt powers.. so. we could try anew... and hopfully get it right.

In general, this is my view too. Part of why I asked this question is because it would be easy for me to push it, so I want to understand other people's arguments on the idea.

>First new rule id make.. No sexually oppressing anyone. ever.

But what if that's their fetish? You always gotta allow cruelty with consent. ;)

ScottySkunk

8 years, 4 months ago

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Edited 8 years, 4 months ago by Owner

Lol. I said you couldnt oppress them, not that you couldnt make them squirm in desire in their kinks. I talking more like religion does and things that are are similar..

that said.. me n lexi are gonna fill a daiper big enough to fill your home lol

JustLurking

8 years, 5 months ago

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Edited 8 years, 5 months ago by Owner

That's a very extreme choice.

It would depend how on how secure the dictatorship was.

If there was a good chance that it could be put down in a relatively timely manner without resorting to such extreme measures then no; that isn't just your culture and environment, it belongs to everyone including the people you want to free.

If on the other hand there was no realistic prospect of ending the dictatorship and it was causing that much misery then maybe it would be worth it.

Don't forget that libraries aren't just fiction sections though. You specified only things “that make your culture unique” would be destroyed, but I can't see a way to do that 'cleanly'. If libraries and other records were destroyed then in the best case you'd probably knock at least a few decades off of our technological advancement (cutting edge research isn't as widely distributed as the well-known). In the worst case you might trigger a new dark age of misery in a single generation as the remaining few who have the knowledge in their head fail to transmit bits or pieces to their students or are misunderstood.

Also driving native species to extinction is probably going to cause the local environment to collapse. So... food shortages, famine and probably more strife/misery.

AlexReynard

8 years, 5 months ago

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@ JustLurking

EXACTLY. All of that. Those are all things I wanted you to have to consider in making this choice. And you hit the nail on the head: YOU would be making a choice that affects multitudes of other people. It's meant to be a daunting prospect, taking on so much responsibility.

JustLurking

8 years, 5 months ago

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Well, you should take the path that minimises suffering over the (long-)long run. Will the world you leave to your great-nth grandchildren (and your great-nth minus 1 grandchildren and so on) be good enough to outweigh the suffering in the near-term?

I just don't think we have enough information to decide that here.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ JustLurking

I posed this question because I'm considering a story in which a character must make a choice like this. One where the consequences will be dire, but he knows there can be no fate worse than leaving things be. And has reason to think things may get much better afterwards. I wanted to get input from a lot of people, to see what kind of arguments he might make for himself, and what arguments might be made against him.

JustLurking

8 years, 4 months ago

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Oh, I get that. I was just speaking in generalities; a good person should always try to pick the best outcome. :)

Blackraven2

8 years, 5 months ago

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@ JustLurking

Marthin Luther pressed the button.He challenged the supreme might of the pope by publishing a few hereticpages on a church door. I don't know if he was aware of the ultimate consequences, but he sure was convinced it was the right thing.

It lead to the wave of reformation, uprising, and eventually the 30 year war, which decimated Europe and threw society back by what is estimated a 100 years.Entire landscapes were in ruins, fiels and villages in scorched ruins, famine and desease plagued the not somany survivors.

Yet it eventually set the stage for enlightenment, and for a new world order based on Science to finally lead mankind out if the dark ages.

In retrospect, worth it.

Back then?

JustLurking

8 years, 5 months ago

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I don't really think that is like this button though (but maybe I'm mistaken). This button is a defeat-X rather than challenge-X.

Jerriki

8 years, 5 months ago

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I'm still trying to figure out this "freedom is an illusion" drek; can anyone expand on that intelligibly?

As for pushing the button: it's not quite Freedom vs Tradition, it's more Freedom vs Culture. I've got some strong biases from my background . . . but I think I would push the button. You can't have true security, real and valuable culture, without freedom. As described, there's nothing like freedom in this society.

Having said that, I don't think anyone from that society would push the button: the mental and cultural stagnation that would inevitably have arisen in the conditions described both in the original prompt and subsequent answers would all but preclude any given member of that society from understanding actual freedoms and security. Broadly applied, and moving it away from solely language, Sapir-Whorf holds some value and veracity. It's not impossible to imagine or conceive of concepts and things outside your daily experience, but it is extremely difficult. Without some basis from which to evaluate the value of true freedom, very very few people are going to be able to actually make that mental leap.

Great change has always involved great unrest. Flux is a natural result of upsetting the status quo; the greater the shift, the greater the chaos that results.

Blackraven2

8 years, 5 months ago

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@ Jerriki

Yeah, its like,how difficult it is to explain the implications of "human rights" for the individual, to a person from China.

They get tought that the needs of the many always outfavor the needsof the view, and any freedom right is always restricted by this law.

If you get that toughtin family and primary school, you have a hard time convincing an adult.

Chaon

8 years, 4 months ago

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Speaking as someone who is chinese l agree. Since freedom is not a concept my countrymen on whole are used to in first place it is not much sacrifice to forsake. Ignorance is bliss.

Welcome to the matrix

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ Jerriki

>I'm still trying to figure out this "freedom is an illusion" drek; can anyone expand on that intelligibly?

No help here. I'm too hopeful to understand it myself.

>Having said that, I don't think anyone from that society would push the button: the mental and cultural stagnation that would inevitably have arisen in the conditions described both in the original prompt and subsequent answers would all but preclude any given member of that society from understanding actual freedoms and security.

Good point. In the story idea I had, this would be someone who is relatively new to the culture, trying to make this decision on behalf of everyone. Someone who still remembers what a good life is. Having had some experiences with traditionalists, or people who stay in bad situations purely because it's their version of normal, I want to understand that better.

>Great change has always involved great unrest. Flux is a natural result of upsetting the status quo; the greater the shift, the greater the chaos that results.

Have definitely seen that in my own life. The best things that have ever happened to me have grown out of catastrophes.

Blackraven2

8 years, 5 months ago

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There's one thing that needs to be considered.

Obviously that kinda button would have to be a last resort.
So, will thebutton remain an option,while youcan try a few other things?
Or is it a one time, one of kind opportunity, that you need to utilize, or the chance is gone, possibly forever.

In the latter case you have no choice. You almost have to press it.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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I'm envisioning a situation where the dictator is like a sleeping giant. Complacent where he is, but any action taken against him had better damn well work, or else he'll either be wary to further attacks, or scorched-earth anyone responsible.

Blackraven2

8 years, 4 months ago

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Edited 8 years, 4 months ago by Owner

Yep, thats usually the case. Dictators with absolute power often create envy amongst their closest peers. Those who helped them get and stay in power. As such, old dictators are almost always paranoid dictators... Although it isn't really paranoia if you know for certain who' s after you.

As such a well established dictator who already survived the first coup attempt will respond to any tiny trace of resistance with uttermost force.

"Sir, there is rumors from questionable sources, that there is a resistance cell formed in Haydale village. Our investigators haven't been able to identify any insurgents or find out about their goals. It mightbe false alarm."

"Better play it safe. Send a tank battallion tonight and level the village. No survivors, but put a few douzend in the camps for interrogation, in case there really was a threat, there might be connections. Send a memo to the propaganda ministry that Haydale was destroyed in an Earthquake and fire 200 years ago and the area wasn't settled since. The usual, change the maps and history books, everyone who publicly claims otherwise is guilty for spreading fake news against the authority, jadda jadda. Man, and give me my coffe, I hate to work without coffe in the morning..."

sedkitty

8 years, 5 months ago

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It's a simple but multifaceted situation. History has shown us that there are no easy answers. France overthrew their leaders, only to slot themselves into the role. The US overthrew theirs, but did fairly well for themselves. It's basically a toss of the dice, and to put it in D&D terms, it's lawful evil versus chaotic good.

That said, I'd label the button "FREE COOKIES." :3

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ sedkitty

>to put it in D&D terms, it's lawful evil versus chaotic good.

That actually is a good way of putting it. And surprisingly so, as I do play D&D, and I hadn't thought of my characters in those allignments at all. Fascinating.

>That said, I'd label the button "FREE COOKIES." :3

Oooh, naughty you!

chaosblackwing

8 years, 5 months ago

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My first thought was actually along different lines than the others. Is the dictator the only thing keeping the reign of terror in place in the thought experiment? It's one thing to kill the lynchpin to the entire corrupt system, allowing it to start to heal(similar to surgery in a way, you're cutting healthy flesh to get rid of the bad, with the idea that it will be able to heal afterwards), but if all you'd do is kill the one at the top and leave the system in place at most you've gotten rid of the worst of the lot, which leaves the second worst, and the third, and so on.

'Meet the new boss, same as the old boss' as the saying goes.

The damage to cultural uniqueness is a huge negative, but depending on how long the dictatorship has been in place I'd say odds are good that it's already been corrupted to the point that starting from scratch might not be that big of a loss, or it's been replaced with something that's not worth keeping, meaning it's loss could very well be an improvement.

(An example that came to mind while thinking was a culture built on the back of slavery. Burn that fucker to the ground, the core is rotten to the point that while there might be some good worth saving it's not worth the cost to do so.)

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ chaosblackwing

>It's one thing to kill the lynchpin to the entire corrupt system, allowing it to start to heal(similar to surgery in a way, you're cutting healthy flesh to get rid of the bad, with the idea that it will be able to heal afterwards), but if all you'd do is kill the one at the top and leave the system in place at most you've gotten rid of the worst of the lot, which leaves the second worst, and the third, and so on.

Perfectly aware of that. In my original story idea, there is no one else like the dictator. Like, if a huge, unique supercomputer were running the world and had gone rogue. No human could posses the multitasking ability to fill that role.

>(An example that came to mind while thinking was a culture built on the back of slavery. Burn that fucker to the ground, the core is rotten to the point that while there might be some good worth saving it's not worth the cost to do so.)

Certainly a good point. And why I like Django Unchained so much. ;)

chaosblackwing

8 years, 4 months ago

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>Perfectly aware of that. In my original story idea, there is no one else like the dictator. Like, if a huge, unique supercomputer were running the world and had gone rogue. No human could posses the multitasking ability to fill that role.

In that case my train of thought would probably be close to some of the others here(though an added layer of thought would be, how much did reading their comments influence mine?)

Is it the easy way, or the only way? If there's a good chance to remove them without The Button and the collateral damage that would be guaranteed from it's use, then try that first, leave The Button as a last resort sort of thing. Pushing The Button will cause significant damage, whereas another form of removal you at least have the chance to try and keep the damage to a minimum.

If the dictator is the sort of 'if I can't have it then no-one does' on the other hand, who will burn it all down on their way down as 'revenge' then you might as well push the button anyway, as they'd likely do their best to destroy everything, while The Button seems a more 'random' disaster, destroying the base but may or may not do the same to others.

That said, if the 'offer' is a one-time-only thing, such that you have one chance to push it, then yeah, push that button. The situation you describe is all sorts of horrible, if you have one guaranteed chance to remove the cancer and start the healing, as opposed to 'maybe's or 'possibly's then you almost have to take it, as you might not get another chance.

ProjectDemise

8 years, 5 months ago

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I'd take a deep breath, close my eyes, and push the button, and hope it all works out alright.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ ProjectDemise

I think I would too. But I wanted to hear lots of other opinions first.

ProjectDemise

8 years, 4 months ago

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Edited 8 years, 4 months ago by Owner

Sometimes a sacrifice must be made for the greater good. I definitely wouldn't enjoy having to be the decider, but I imagine most people wouldn't be happy to be presented that choice in real. But cultures can be rebuilt or created anew, species may go extinct but many do so anyway, the economy may collapse but it is an economy based in an absolute dictator's control and is used more to enrich that dictator and their cronies rather than to support the people.

I game. Sometimes you wind up with choices that are very difficult to decide (the game Life is Strange comes to mind for that). The outcome of option A, keeping the dictator, would mean the populace would be turned into, essentially, robot slaves. They would not be allowed to think for themselves and would only exist to serve the dictator. Option B is the destruction of that which makes your people unique: their culture. Everything that made your people stand out would be wiped out by the push of a button.

But if you really think about it, both options have the same consequence: the destruction of one's culture. If history has taught me anything, it's that dictators do their damnedest to crush the culture of the people they rule over. They snuff out their traditions, destroy their history, bring absolute ruination to the culture they have taken over in order to turn the populace into devoted slaves. Pushing the button destroys the culture the same as the dictator, only faster. The end result essentially boils down to Slavery or Freedom. Again, I'd choose freedom, and agonize about the loss of culture later.

draconicon

8 years, 5 months ago

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I'm horrible for this sort of thought experiment, because I keep finding little problems with the question (in my mind) that make it not click, and I'm not certain that didn't happen when other people were shouting to press the button. Even by setting the conditions you have, a lot of minds - or at least mine - start thinking about how the dictator is likely already doing a lot to destroy the culture, that few dictators have actually preserved a culture of the people rather than a culture of their own opulence, that destroying libraries doesn't necessarily mean destroying a culture, etc. There's a lot of little loopholes the mind jumps through with this to justify pushing the button, because it doesn't want to be trapped in the things you set, because the scenario, isolated and self-contained as it is, feels rejectable.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ draconicon

No no; finding these little loopholes is GOOD. I want to consider all aspects of this scenario.

In my imaginary scenario, there has been no culture in this land apart from what the dictator decrees. He's essentially the founder of this civilization. And you're absolutely right about the libraries. Even if all the tangible parts of a culture collapsed, a lot of it could be rebuilt from collective memory of the citizens.

CeilYurei

8 years, 4 months ago

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GIVE ME FREEDOM OR GIVE ME DEATH!!! -Slams button-

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ CeilYurei

GIVE ME FREEDOM OR GIVE ME HAM! OR BOTH! I LIKE BOTH!

CeilYurei

8 years, 4 months ago

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Wait, I can have ham with my freedom!? Nobody told me that!

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ CeilYurei

I Googled "freedom ham", and it looks different from what I expected: http://www.disneyeveryday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/...

CeilYurei

8 years, 4 months ago

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EEWWW, dat is ugly

Alfador

8 years, 4 months ago

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Is... Is that green (scrambled) eggs and ham?

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ Alfador

I believe it is.

ScottySkunk

8 years, 4 months ago

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... Nope. *walks away and gets some chili instead

Kalibran

8 years, 4 months ago

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I guess id break the button and look for a more traditional solution chambered in .303 Winchester

Blackraven2

8 years, 4 months ago

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Thats a bit Naive. Check this out:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler

The failure to assassinate Hitler certainly had nothing to do with lack of people trying it.

The retaliations were thorrough. Anyone who was as much as suspected of having known about any of these plots were executioned. (Or in case of renowed General and war hero, Rommel, "allowed" to commit suicide, with the SS watching.)

Kalibran

8 years, 4 months ago

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Well, its a shit decision, but I'd rather let Hitler live than obliterate the totality of civilization's knowledge and infrastructure killing him.

Blackraven2

8 years, 4 months ago

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Well, unless that dictator has already established himself as a single world leader with no others, as faras I understand it, the button would just obliterate your society, not civilisation as a whole. That' d bea completely different caliber, causing worldwide mayhem just because one country or continent got the shit card. No, Alex description talks about Your culture and economy specifically.

Now check the end result of world war 2. Germany, in fact most of Europe was in ruins. Look up some pictures. That included most libraries and museums, anything that had't been brought into bunkers.

In the first decade of occupation, Germans were forbidden to develop anything in the most advanced fields of the time, aviation, rocket technology, all the fields they had previously been world leaders. All scientists proficient in those fields were brought abroud to the US ( operation paperclip & others) and the Soviets.

There would have been no Sputnic, no Juri Gargarin and no Niel Armstrong without these scientists

Entire populations were deported, as the Soviets annected east Prussia and "relocated" Poland, never to see their homeland again.

So, how is that different from " pressing the button" ?

Kalibran

8 years, 4 months ago

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My greatest fear in life is forgetting. Maybe its selfish, but I'd be willing to let myself and others suffer quite a lot before I'd voluntarily forget everything we are and ever were.

Blackraven2

8 years, 4 months ago

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And yet, it's exactly that knowledge that a totalitarian regime, if it is ever allowed to rule for more than one generation, will surpress, warp and defile.

You might remember. But in the regime Alex describes, your Children will never be told about it. It will be mandatory to send your offspring to mandatory activities that seem fun and educational, but are really two things.
1. Indoctrination. Teach the kid to think like a good party member early on.
2. Spy on the parents. Kids are bad lyers, so if anyone is stupid enough to try and give their children some complementary ideas that contradict the party's dogma. There are trained child psychologist who are gonna learn all about it. And then you'd either be termed unfit for rising your own kids and they end up in a party boarding school, or worse, you go straight to the gulag.

You grandchildren won't even know anymore what true freedom even is. All your values , ideals, and role models will have been replaced by the ruling partie's world view.

Once you reach that, noone would want to press the button. After all the just leader is only defending the country against insurgents and terrorists. And you are free after all. You can move anywhere where its reaonable, within city limits and until curfew just like everyoneelse. And if anyone ever told you otherwise, chances are, its the secret police, testing you wether you reported on the (pretend) insurgent as its required by law, as well as wether you stand up for your own patriotic ideals in the discussion.( hail the leader and such ) its wellknown the secret police does these tests every so often, and so far you have passed them all. Otherwise you'd not be allowed to move across town all on your own, right? You'r a patriot and as free as it gets. Freedom is awesome!

Kalibran

8 years, 4 months ago

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Well, if they've already won to that extent, then no one is going to push the button, now are they?

Blackraven2

8 years, 4 months ago

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Well, us guys obviously do remember the "before". But you are right if you wait for as long as - let's say North Korea - which is in almost complete Information Isolation and basically noone alive who remembers a "before" than it would be hard to transition that Society away from Totalitarism, even with all Dictators gone.

I don't think Alex intended that button to induce personal memory loss anyway. It doesn't say so anywhere in the submission text.

MrZero

8 years, 4 months ago

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I'd push the button. My goal would be the removal of the dictator and the improvement of Man out of a hopeless existence. We need to advance, not be slaughtered by crime, oppression, and plague. A government is meant to govern, to arrange, to manage, not to oppress.
Art and literature are all that is left behind us to prove the quality of mankind. What, you think our credit history is going to matter? Our cable viewing records? No. But the art and literature of the oppressed society couldn't be all that great anyway. A few paintings of trains to Siberia, a few "inspirational portraits" of the Dictator, a few expressions of the anguish of the suffering people. etc. The economy would take a hit no matter what when the Dictator stops oppressing people. Money that would go to A would go to B for awhile. Like the pain when blood flows into a sleeping foot. A readjustment. And that's what all the "on the down side" shake-up is- readjustment. Take one for the team (a blow that would happen anyway though a different truncheon-related means) and enjoy a much, much, better tomorrow.

unsent

8 years, 4 months ago

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Fuck tradition. Freedom to live your life as you want it is more important than the existence of a single possible way to live it.

Retsen

8 years, 4 months ago

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A better question might be "you live in a country without opportunity and freedom, doing your state assigned job, living in state assigned housing, get married to a state assigned partner to make a state assigned quota of children" rather than the actively harmful dictatorship.

But in the above question, I would definitely push the button. Other than the animals, all the stuff at risk are things. Buildings, art, money. But more than that they are part of the thing that is the problem.

nasthedarkone

8 years, 4 months ago

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rare is the one who can become the villain of the piece for the greater good...rarer still is one who can become the villain, yet still bear the weight of their choice. i actually encountered a story one that presents this problem. tis called 'Besides the Will of Evil', a continuation of another story called 'It's a Dangerious Business, Going Out Your Door'. u can find it here: http://www.fimfiction.net/story/182859/its-a-dangerous... the second story is linked to it...please be advised that both of these r Pony fics, that is, they r MLP stories, and not for everyone.

Aichi

8 years, 4 months ago

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Rather have the option to live going towards the future rather than being chained to the past. The only question I have is: is the tradition totally erased or is only your country's perception of it erased. Like Say America was a dictatorship and I pressed the button. Do we just forget Apple Pie and baseball are parts of our culture or do they cease to exhist. because a totally blank fresh start with no history, and no memory of that history is a powerful motivator.

Besides The dictator likely controlled how history was written, what works of art were created, and which were destroyed. If I was to kill said dictator, I dont just want to kill him/her. I want to erase their legacy. It is a terrible thing to go down in history as the worst person of all time, but history remembers you. You live on through that legacy. I would want to deny my dictator that privilege, I want them gone forgotten to the abyss

Krechevskoy

8 years, 4 months ago

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Edited 8 years, 4 months ago by Owner

Woo!  Late to the party!  I haven't read all the other comments, so someone may have already stated this... But who cares!

I must admit, I have a pretty cold/pragmatic view point compared to most people... I often take weighted sums and averages of scenarios, and I think I'll do that here as well.  See, the thing is, even if there are millions of people in this country, there are probably only a dozen or so with any real weight or importance to my life.  Friends and family, as well as those running vital services and utilities which I use, are worth far more to me, personally, than any number of strangers combined.

I know, of course, that those nameless strangers are providing the infrastructure and backbone of society... But I have to assume they would be doing that regardless of the governmental system they are in.  I could try to empathize and guess at what they want, but I am not even great at doing that for my friends, so I have little hope of doing that for strangers.

So, given that I only really have a dozen or so people to take into account, the choice becomes very simple.  Right now, the system is bad for myself and the people that have the most importance to my life.  Based on the given description, there are very few ways things could get worse for those people.  If I press the button, then I don't have any idea what will happen... There could be a whole new type of hell waiting on the other side that is even worse.  We could all die in the process of the change as well.  However, looking at it as a spectrum, I have a situation that I know is bad... that is pretty close to the limits of the bad scale, as far as human history goes... So the odds would appear to be in favor of a better outcome than what I have.

Now, given all that, the question of culture and tradition basically disappears for me.  Sure, it will not be super pleasant to lose some of those things, but people are remarkably resilient, and they will make new traditions and find new ways to be proud of who they are.  Identity is deeply important to people, but I don't expect them to break down without it.  They will just make a new identity for themselves, to go with a new world.

"	Kain, Legacy of Kain wrote:
	"Given the choice, whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire; or to challenge the fates for another throw - a better throw - against one's destiny... what was a king to do?"

So yes, I think I would press that button, if it appeared that it would improve the lives of the most important people in my life. It is selfish and small minded, and it certainly imposes my will onto others that never asked for it... but this is the only life I have, and I have to do what is best for that life. I expect the same from each and every one of them.

AlexReynard

8 years, 4 months ago

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@ Krechevskoy

Sweet Jesus, this was very likely the most well-thought-out answer anyone gave me. Impressively reasoned, amigo. Those last lines especially. I came up with this as a way to gauge people's feelings about the central conflict I wanted to put in a story (disguised somewhat from what it'll end up being) and this whole experiment has been super illuminating.

Krechevskoy

8 years, 4 months ago

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