Inkbunny

It's already been said, there's a backlog. They're trying to clear it by having some work at the front of the ticket queue (avoiding multiple reports on what'll generally be newer submissions) and some working from the back. Without knowing how long that backlog is for 8 mods and, at minimum, several hundred active users, I can guess that 7 months is probably squarely in that backlog.

Clovertea

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Telain

It could also be that reports are given priority based on how many people report something. If multiple people report an image or artist, it might get sorted to the top of their queue, whereas a single report might not get as much priority, but I don't know how Inkbunny works so this is just a guess.

I've been on websites that do that though. They'll have an automated system push stuff that's reported more to the top of a ticket list. Usually means popular users, or people who upload more often, get more scrutiny...

Telain

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Clovertea

I don't think that's the case for Inkbunny as on now. The tickets are fully manual entry, so automatically associating them with a particular submission or account would be difficult.

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Clovertea

They've already indicated they have a very rudimentary ticketing system. I would expect it's no more than like when you do a search for submissions. Just pages and pages of tickets, mostly in the order they were created. I'm finding that people have little general idea of what an actual ticketing system looks like, and how almost all of them are either rudimentary or so bloated and complex companies can make only enough sense of them to use them in the most rudimentary way.

Clovertea

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but I have seen the other end of a few different ticket systems, since I've been the one responding to them. I've never seen Inkbunny's though, and it is true that smaller independently-owned sites just use the basic sort-by-last.

I was just guessing either way, but it could also depend on which mod is on duty when a report is made. Mods are people, and some people are just more proactive about specific kinds of reports than others, for their own reasons, or they just have more time than other mods do, since it's volunteer work.

I guess that's why they're seeking new mods now though.

NinoFoxx

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ NinoFoxx

I know they're trying their best. my comment wasn't fair, please disregard it.

ClarkRedheart

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Baraag is a good place to upload since they allow both furry and human art with no issue or censorship

PaydayWolf

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Fuck, I'm gonna miss seeing you pop up in my new subs feed, and the major happiness boost I get from seeing you. But, I completely understand as this situation is pretty BS. Baraag is a good alternative if you want to check it out! I'll be checking your e6 page religiously now c:

Neversoft

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Yeah, I understand why you’re doing this. Inkbunny is too strict with humans but not with AI.

It sucks to see you go.

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

If I remember right, it's part of the hosting terms that allows IB to host at least a subset of pics that we like.

I think the biggest thing is that it has to be an occlusion censorship and it has to be fully obscuring the genitals / body, not a mosaic or like how sometimes Japanese censorship does the smallest of lines on only the bare-minimalist of areas so that you can see parts of the penis / vagina.

It is unfortunate that your vision for your story is in direct conflict with the no humans rules. It's one of those things where both sides are valid but the one where the law can come in and wreck shit up is the one that wins.

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Actually now that I'm thinking about it. Didn't this happen before? Weren't you trying to use a mosaic censorship and had to go back and redo it with occlusion censorship?

JeffyCottonbun

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

While I understand that there are circumstances leading to your decision, I want to express that I'm not alone in feeling rather bummed about it.
Everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes they can lead to unintended consequences. I am aware that you were informed about what was wrong, and were also given the opportunity to amend those submissions, in order to have them unlocked. It's regrettable that we didn't reach out sooner, so that right now the situation wouldn't be overwhelming for you, with so many such submissions.

I really hope you will reconsider your decision.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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As Jeffy says, several of us definitely appreciate your art. But someone should have reached out to you about those censors much sooner. You censor, but your mosaic censor doesn't make it less clear that there's a human (it still looks like a human under the censor), and since it's still fairly clear there's a human, then it cannot be a sexual situation, and they're pretty much all still clearly sexual situations. Your most recent submission went to lengths to censor the underlying image but preserving the onomatopoeia that make clear that under it is a sexual situation.

The ACP says "Censored art involving humans must plausibly depict a non-sexual situation.". It doesn't simply say "human art must be censored", it sets a clear bar that the works that were locked didn't meet, in that they depict a human in a sexual situation. It's not analogous to Japanese law, where it's sufficient to slap a joke line through a vulva or a light mosaic that leaves clear what's going on. You must censor in such a way that it does not appear to be a sexual situation.

Xennos

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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The real problem is how poorly you all executed. Shouldn't Mods have a place to discuss things before committing any serious actions? If you do, then shame on you for not using it. Pipo has been here for years and has been trying his best to keep it under your very vague rules. So far, no one has told him what he's been doing is wrong. So what did you expect? Of course, he's going to assume his actions were enough for the site.

As much as I understand the reason behind this, your actions, however, are unforgivable and very draconian. Pipo deserve better than this...

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Xennos

We did discuss it. What are you talking about? We didn't ban them. We didn't even suspend their ability to make submissions. We sent them a clear notice with example of how they could censor better, we locked the images that were a problem, and we'll unlock them when they fix them and tell us. It's probably one of the most detailed and considerate notices of this type we've sent. We usually don't take the time to edit image examples for the artist to help make it clear.

What monstrous thing have we perpetrated against them? We literally gave them a warning and made clear what they need to do to avoid it in the future. How is any of that draconian?

Piporete

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Nah you guys just hide those submissions right away, without any previous warning, I would actually understood your decision if you guys send me a message saying "Yo dumbass have you read the rules? you have 4 days to fix the censor on those pics" I remember having a similar issue back then when I first join the site and I fix the censorship on the pics of that time, so for 3 years almost 4 everything is ok, and suddenly bam! they are not censored enough and you send me all the links to the drawings that need "fixing" with examples of big fucking black squares on my images like what the hell I'm suppose to think?

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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We hide the images because they are in violation of the rules, and present a legal risk for the person that operates the site. They're not deleted, you don't lose any of the counters, you just need to update the image and they're unlocked as they were before. This is how we treat anybody. If an image is against the rules, we lock it and wait for you to fix it. We don't leave it up and wait, because people could keep reporting it, or we might face issues from hosting content that is not acceptable in our primary jurisdiction.

As far as anything that happened before, there's no record and you'd received no notice of anyone warning you for anything. Maybe that's a problem on us. And the fact that we took so long to inform you of the issue is definitely a problem. But the actual handling of the problem is in-line with how we handle all of these. We're not going to treat you any different than anyone else.

Piporete

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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I want exactly that, a equal treatment to everyone, so that mean you ar gonna go after other people that upload human characters on sexual depictions right? becouse is very easy right now in the site to find those

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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We deal with things as they're reported to us and we're able to. But we do deal with all things reported to us eventually. We encourage people to report things, because that's an integral part of how we manage the site. We can't be everywhere and see everything. Your submissions were reported by a user because they thought your censor was insufficient. When we looked, that was the case.

Piporete

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Ohhhh there you go, a user reported me, that's one of the things that I wanted to know, thanks

NinoFoxx

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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just curious, when did they report Pipo's art? because I've reported a dozen uncensored human submissions 7 months ago (and also this one back in June).

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ NinoFoxx

There are two parts to working our queue. Dealing with backlog, and keeping backlog from growing. Some people tackle things from the back, and some people tackle things from the front. This was closer to the front than the back. If we can deal with things towards the front, it often results in duplicates further down the line anyway, because people keep on reporting the same thing.

NinoFoxx

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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👍

Kellyn

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Honestly maybe that’s what needs to change. If you are getting a ton of duplicates then there should be a system in place to track and consolidate that. Rather than having someone work from the back and someone work from the front, you could have someone work from the back and someone work on the high report count. If something is so blatantly in violation that multiple people are reporting it then the number of people reporting it should be visible to you, and considered.

I understand that this would likely be a massive overhaul but if the team can’t get bigger then the tools need to get better to keep up.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Kellyn

The team can (and is) getting bigger. But this is also something else I want to do. There are a huge slate of background changes that I'm working on, and this is one of them. These things take time though. We don't have full-time developers, and most volunteers aren't asking to work on boring things like 'support improvements'. We can't make them either. It's a volunteer thing.

So changes to the tools are coming, but it's in conjunction with other things.

Kellyn

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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To be clear by “can’t get bigger” I simply mean “not able to grow fast enough to keep up with demand”. I wasn’t trying to imply the team size is hard capped right now. This being volunteer work I understand finding people who you guys trust who also have the time for this is difficult.

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yeah, this goes to what I said in the other thread. Everything stems from a resource and scalability problem. It's like an app running at near max heap capacity and so processes chug. I'd actually offer to help with the dev side of things, though if I remember right the tech stack is not one I've fiddled with in a long time.

But I think that's overall what people need to kind of come to an understanding of. Too many orders. Not enough cooks. Need more cooks, and more stoves. But everyone's volunteer so less-than part time. And even y'all trying to communicate all this stuff. Guess what? Takes time away from that stuff too.

Azerio

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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The major thing right now is the inconsistently in how this rule is being applied and it's going to piss someone off when half there gallery is targeted and others aren't. I know right now I can search "shota, human" search by last 6 months upload change to most popular and find most of the first few pages breach the current rules but nothing has been done.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Azerio

Did you bother to report any of them? Because we don't sit here searching for violations. Nobody has the time to do that. We resolve issues in one of two ways:

1. As they're reported.
2. As we encounter them in our regular use of the site.

If something isn't reported, and a staff member doesn't see it in their normal use of the site, how are we going to be aware of it?

Azerio

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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You know what ticket 20818 about this exact kinda content. No reply. The fact is the mods don't reply to loads of tickets even to say no we don't believe there's anythig to action. So guess what people do stop reporting things when they get no feedback, I know I have.

It's also not my job to go report 100s of pictures. At least maybe it should be a mods job to occasionally look though tags like that.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Azerio

That ticket is old, but not concerningly so for me yet. We've got a lot of stuff to work on, and we're working on it. Maybe you noticed, but we solicited (and are still, till tomorrow) soliciting applications for moderators. That's not an instant fix, but given the positive results from when we did this a few years back on a much smaller scale, I expect that response times will go down drastically.

I don't think it's good when things like this sit either, but at the end of the day, once we're made aware it must be acted upon as someone is available to do so.

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Azerio

This doesn't make sense. If a mod is spending all their time combing through searches of various tags page by page they are also not responding to support tickets.

It's not your job to comb through pages and pages of stuff to report for the mods. Just like with most other sites with small-capacity moderation the ideal system is for part of the moderation process to be outsourced to the community to help filter to the moderation segment what is important. That's actually a high risk on the moderation side because the community could collude to actively not participate in that in some respect and that de facto provides a place for that violation to occur.

The response to that is to increase manpower, or utilize automation. The former is difficult because, just like it's not your job because you're not getting paid, I don't think the mods are getting paid either? I could be wrong. But like in most websites like reddit and stuff, mods aren't paid. They're volunteer. The latter, automation, people don't like because, lo and behold, it's basically the same system that the mods currently do just more proactive. The automated system would, to protect against liability, suppress the content it perceives is violating the terms until it is not violating the terms, and the only remedy is to either comply or appeal. Same thing that just happened, it's just what happened was sparked by the more "ideal" use of community support.

What you're complaining about is a scalability problem, which is fair. A lot of companies and communities suffer from a scalability problem. But so far we haven't found a solution that is either fantastic, or that doesn't require some people to have this logical and rational understanding of "I might get negatively affected temporarily because of a false light."

IB's strategy is evidently to try and increase manpower. But that doesn't change its general reliance on outsourcing the aid in identifying violations to the community. Which, y'know. That's a thankless act in a lot of ways. Just like how moderation, if it's volunteer, is also a thankless act.

All of that isn't necessarily an IB problem. It's more like an everywhere problem.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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You are absolutely right that it is a scaling problem, and it is in fact much worse than that. It is a fundamental failing in their entire methodology they refuse to acknowledge even when stark examples are right in front of them, such as in this case.

I wrote a lot of words breaking down just how damaged it is here: https://inkbunny.net/j/401225-alistair-treatise-on-systemic-vulnerabilities-in-inkbunny-moderation-methodology

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Kadm is outright saying it's a shit process and they'd like it to be better. In multiple comments in this journal. I've seen them remark about it in comments on other journals as well. I dunno what you're on about them not acknowledging it. Maybe they aren't speaking for all of the mod team but it kinda sounds like it. Maybe they haven't acknowledged it up until this very journal. Well, okay. Now they have, so. Is this an opportunity to move forward or no?

The fundamental problem is the scalability and resource contention problem. It's a problem throughout a lot of technical industry. Remember when Reddit implemented API limits and effectively squeezed Apollo and other apps out of the market? A lot of the complaints about that was because Apollo offered moderation automation tools to help with the scalability and resource problem. Moderation teams are necessarily small because they are administratively privileged individuals, so there is of course going to be a scalability and resource contention, it's just a matter of how many you can have or how much tooling they have available to mitigate that problem as much as possible.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	LemmyNiscuit wrote:
	I dunno what you're on about them not acknowledging it.

"It" is the fundamental failing in their methodology itself. They, to this day, deny that there is any such problem.

Adding more staff won't fix it, and will only make it worse as there will merely be more people with fuzzy ideas about the fuzzy rules, likely with fuzzy understanding of English, and so the selective enforcement will become more selective and more draconian.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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This is literally about submission content moderation, the one thing your whacky libertarian fantasy policy does not cover. Other users cannot moderate submission content. If they had that power, wouldn't they just be moderators? Should we allow people to vote on content moderation? I'm sure that system wouldn't be abused.

You want to bandy your diatribe here, but this is literally completely unrelated to your writing. And I still think you're wrong, and welcome you to show me an example of what you aim for in action somewhere else in the world.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	This is literally about submission content moderation,

This is literally about your hamfisted procedures themselves, i.e. your behavior, as several people have pointed out, not the necessity of moderation, and your lies about my position are nothing more than chaff to distract from this.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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How was the implementation of our moderation hamfisted? What did we deny the artist? We locked the submission as required by our policies. We made clear to them what the policy was, and the door was open for questions or dialogue. That's not what they chose to do. They took an everyday thing and turned it into a problem for a much wider audience. Literally the only real issue here is that someone didn't notice and act on the violations sooner. No one protected the artist or blackmailed them. There's no caprice. We were simply unaware of the issue until we acted upon it. It's completely divorced from any of your other complaints.

You've wandered in and tried to co-opt a problem you apparently haven't read enough about and it's making clear for everyone that you're just an idealogue.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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SELECTIVE.   ENFORCEMENT.

You guys are incapable of managing the number of tickets (an issue previously identified), will let a report languish for months, except for certain people it happens instantly, with no warning, after a single ticket and after literal years of no sanctions.

It does not matter why this happens, what matters is that it happens at all.  Per the comments in these threads, it's clear that more and more artists are increasingly afraid because they have no idea when you guys are going to hammer them.

The fact that you keep pretending this isn't the actual issue is just another way your wild dishonesty manifests.  You guys are cops of a petty fiefdom, and act like every jerk cop that ever was.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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What the hell are you on about? They literally received a warning, and their submissions were locked pending their correction. There are no further consequences. It is an absolutely normal part of the content moderation process. We don't warn someone but leave the violating work up. That's literally never how this has worked, or how it will ever work.

As for the timing of this, we work our ticket queue from both the front and back of the queue. We're not intentionally letting anything sit, but working both ends of the queue results in a lower rate of duplicate tickets for issues that crop up recently.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	We're not intentionally letting anything sit,

Doesn't matter. If you have two queues, then it is logically true that you are selectively prioritizing some tickets over others. Which, btw, is something I warned about in my Treatise, except now you're actually doing it explicitly and not accidentally.

It does not matter that you are doing this out of some desire for efficiency. It results in uneven and opaque enforcement, which is the reason so many people are frustrated at your handling of all this.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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People are upset because enforcement is not timely. These issues become non-issues if all enforcement is timely, and so the answer is simply to be more diligent in increasing our staff (something we did not do for years), and work to improve our tools. No part of your treatise deals with an abundance of content moderation. The majority of users find the policy clear enough, and plenty of them find it clear enough to report others. While I'm advocating for additional clarity (like FAQs), at the heart of it our policies are perfectly workable.

It is merely our failure to grow as the site has grown in activity that is at the root of the problem. No libertarian fantasy can fix a need to moderate significant volumes of submissions. It doesn't moderate itself.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	Kadm wrote:
	People are upset because enforcement is not timely.

Jesus, do you actually not understand?

It's not just that enforcement isn't timely, its that the time is unknowable and selective! Sometimes its immediate, other times its eventually-sometime-and-maybe-never. The perception is therefore of selective enforcement, and no matter how much you claim that this isn't so, the perception remains because it is true in practice, even if not in intent.

"	No part of your treatise deals with an abundance of content moderation.

Not as such, but it is the same issue as ticket volume, which absolutely is covered in the treatise.

"	The majority of users find the policy clear enough, and plenty of them find it clear enough to report others.

There are two sets of policies: the site content policies (public) and the internal methodology and practices of the moderators in the performance of their duties.

The first set is known, if occasionally poorly-defined. The second set is a complete black box and are the true rules of IB. Which I also covered in the treatise.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Is this a complex, unknowable policy?

"	Human characters are permitted in artwork, however they must not appear in sexual situations and must not show genitals, anal details, or sexual arousal. Censored art involving humans must plausibly depict a non-sexual situation.

The issue here is that the censored art still clearly showed both a human and a sexual situation. The user did not censor sufficiently to make one or the other of those things go away. It's not complicated. They tried, but their light mosaic censor still made it absolutely clear that under it was a human, and they literally made sure you still know it's a sexual situation under there by ensuring onomatopoeia were preserved above the censoring.

You might have an argument about 'what is a human', but that's not at issue here. The artist is extremely vocal about it being a human, and it's clearly a human, even censored.

That said, I absolutely agree that things can be clearer, and once we're done with a round of recruitment, my intention is to sit down and starting building FAQ's for the Acceptable Content Policy, so that it's easier for people to understand.

But that doesn't stop this situation. People are still going to be upset when they're moderated, regardless of how clear the rules are. There's not a rules issue here, or even a clarity issue. The user is upset by normal moderation activity, and that it didn't come earlier in their account lifetime. A problem that can only be solved by a more responsive staff.

This is literally not in the same realm as your other complaints, which I'll add that behavior and harassment tickets are down significantly since we started being more firm with warnings on users for those behaviors. The site hasn't seemed to have suffered for it, and it hasn't been enough of a problem for you to leave.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	Kadm wrote:
	Is this a complex, unknowable policy?

Is this too difficult for you to understand?

There are two sets of policies: the site content policies (public) and the internal methodology and practices of the moderators in the performance of their duties.
The first set is known, if occasionally poorly-defined. The second set is a complete black box and are the true rules of IB. Which I also covered in the treatise.

You keep trying to pretend this is about the no-humans thing, despite repeated attempts by users here to correct you.

"	my intention is to sit down and starting building FAQ's for the Acceptable Content Policy, so that it's easier for people to understand.

What you need to make a FAQ for are the actual rules of the site you mods operate by. Not the content policies, your own moderator rules!

For example, you need to actually tell people that your preferred method of user interaction is backbiting, underhanded snide remarks and low-key abuse instead of up-front confrontations. And that's just one of your unstated rules it took way too much to get you to admit to.

"	There's not a rules issue here, or even a clarity issue.

Definitely a clarity issue, as in you lack it.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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We're not even in the same conversation because you're living in some fantasy full of grievances not rooted in reality. Like you don't exist in a world where you can accomplish anything productive because you don't acknowledge what's going on around you. I acknowledge our failings and have worked tirelessly over the last few years to address them, and apparently you've spent the last several years just brooding.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	Kadm wrote:
	We're not even in the same conversation because you're living in some fantasy full of grievances not rooted in reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYmtzaHwCKo

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Listen man, I'm happy with reality. I'm not constantly miserable, and my only participation in society isn't to complain impotently. My ideals have examples in the real world, and work. When something is wrong, I work towards bettering the situation instead of just sitting there complaining.

I'm not gaslighting you. Some of what you talk about is great, but Inkbunny isn't here to be your social experiment. If you can point to real-world workable examples of your ideals, then I'll be happy to discuss them further. But you've never been able to do that. It's a fantasy.

Lams

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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I think the issue is simple. Pipo is a net positive for the website. Brings in people and traffic. And already makes an effort to censor art. In this situation, a subtle touch would work better, contact in private, explain the issue, and work together on fixing it, while you say legal consequences, the fact that you initiated the process of fixing the issue is one thing and other is that the content was there already for a quite long time, and an extra couple of days would not change anything

That's my two cents.

Kadm

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Lams

We did contact them privately. We levied no consequence except for locking the images that were violations. This was done at the same time as the notice. This is only public because Piporette choose to make it public. No matter what anyone says, we're not going to treat someone special because of the size of their following or who they know. We allow all users the same recourse when we're made aware of a violation.

Suggesting that we treat them differently than we treat anyone else just because they have more inherent value to the site than other users is not a view we subscribe to.

If it was a huge issue, or they needed to work the issue in parts, they could have reached out to us to communicate. They did not. I don't buy the idea that given a couple of days they would have fixed it. If it was that simple, they simply would have fixed it, instead of making a big deal out of it. I'm sure it would've taken a few weeks to work through all 57 images, and we'd have unhidden them one at a time as requested, if needed.

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

That's. Every. System. Yo. Not just IB.

YouTube hires entire towns'-worth of Indian people to deal with the influx of community guideline strikes, demonetization appeals, DMCA counter-claims; you name it. That's all based on the subjective opinions of people who don't understand the nuances of English and so the solution is a bias toward the most restrictive outcomes or, in other words, outcomes which heavily bias the mitigation of liability and responsibility upon YouTube.

The reason? Who the heck gonna deal with the absolutely enormous amount of volume of that shit? And in that scenario there are peoples' incomes that are affected.

The scalability is the issue. Otherwise, IB is doing things no differently than YouTube, in principle. I'd argue that the biases are actually better mitigated because in close-knit administrative communities (I dunno if you were alive back in the day but BBCode forums had this as well) the moderation teams are more selective about who is a mod and, at that point it's entirely character-based which sometimes can be really good or sometimes really catastrophic. I don't have much of an opinion on what direction it is with IB but the opinion I do have is more positive (or at least positively passive).

You're saying what you're saying because you want the moderation team to say that the way they're going about things is bad and wrong. Why would they when it's, as far as I can tell and have seen, fairly standard practices with whatever adjustments they need to make to try and mitigate the, again, scalability and resource contention problem that they have. I don't think you're going to get them to dance for you. Besides if you were able to get them to, that'd be yet more detraction form the feature requests and timely support responses that people are complaining about.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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alistair yearns for a system where nothing is moderated and things simply operate on their own without anyone involved. It's a perfect libertarian fantasy that ignores the reality that someone needs to operate the website, that it costs time and money to maintain, and that people must be interested in that. If a site turns into the cesspit he desires, it's pretty likely that no one would be interested in operating it, and if they were, they're probably already rolling in cesspit.

alistair

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	That's. Every. System. Yo. Not just IB.

Yeah, I know. When I wrote my treatise, it helped me understand why so many social sites are such hellscapes. They are all built on the same broken assumptions, and all end up with the same failure modes.

I saw IB going the way of YT, Twitter, FB, Insta et al, all of which were facing the same problems and making the same tyrannical mistakes, and hoped my treatise would open eyes.

I thought, because of the IB Philosophy, there would be something like alignment with its stated ethos. I was mistaken; the Inkbunny Philosophy are just pretty words from a past time. So it goes.

LemmyNiscuit

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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I think you are woefully seeking an ideal that is unattainable in this reality at this time. Have fun with that.

NashVonTookus

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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No, it's attainable in every system, just not inkbunny for no discernable reason, excepting your and kadm's explicit denial of reality

Clovertea

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Do you just want human stuff to be ok to post?

You know the reason it isn't is so the site won't be blocked in half of Europe or Canada, right? Cub is a gray area in legal regions where lolisho is not.

SoulCentinel

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Hiding the pictures IS the warning, and they are not deleted.
Censoring the human still can mean making a thumbnail via cropping, or heavily blurring the whole scene.
You can then link off site to the uncensored, say e621 if you enjoy that site. We've had some stuff hidden before too.
In our gallery you can see examples of how we censor, you don't need big black boxes, that's just the most raw example.

Wolfelix

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Might I offer my few cents here. I’m a manger IRL so I hope it’s worth something. What I see here is that the actions or inactions, as well as policy decisions that have been made, have led to a state of distrust between the mod team and some of its biggest creators. Being understaffed is understandable, but it’s a problem of the teams own making. So saying that we are working on it is valuable, but it just kinda confirms what people are worried about i think. it’s the lack of frequent public communication that’s leading to all of this in my opinion. The only place I really ever see comments form mods or admins is in responses to people making decisions that might adversely affect the site. Hell even I have considered making this not my primary platform. It does feel like rules are unevenly applied and actions can be capricious.

I hope you take this as constructive feedback, because I want this site to succeed.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Wolfelix

I appreciate your feedback, and I don't really disagree. We've been extremely reactive over the years. To be honest, we've been drastically understaffed since even before 2017, but no one was in a position to push for growth to match the demand. We had just barely enough energy to keep things going. Around 2020, we made a series of decisions on priorities that definitely slowed down Support issue handling, but have been working steadily since then to update policy, grow staff, and amend our tools to make us more efficient. It's not a quick road. We're volunteers, and most of us have real jobs and other responsibilities to attend to. So triaging a situation like this is draining. But I do believe in communicating where possible with people, and I'm hopeful we'll do better in the future.

onstatobol

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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This is all complete shit! In connection with the new rules, I managed to correct some materials in my gallery. But some bastard receptionist deleted half of my gallery without warning! InkB is no longer a safe place, it was a shot in the foot!

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Kaiser416

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Boy. If I had a nickel for every time I've seen the Inkbunny mods not give a fuck, get called out by someone leaving the site, then attempt to CYA in the comment section of the journal announcing them leaving Inkbunny...

I'd have 2 nickels so far, which wouldn't be a lot...

if I was actively looking for this type of stuff.

Randofox

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Kaiser416

When did they did the first time?

JeffyCottonbun

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Kaiser416

Get called out on what, precisely? Doing our job? Enforcing the rules that have been in place since 2010 (14 years), which literally everyone agreed to upon signing up?

Let it be clear that this case is no different than others - when someone breaks the ACP they get warned, they have the infringing submissions locked, and that's that.

The difference is that they chose to create all of this drama instead of complying with the rules, in order to have their submissions unlocked.

Could've been that easy for everyone involved. But of course it doesn't have to be that easy, and of course people like to be angry at everything lol.

Kaiser416

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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The problem is inconsistent moderation leading to mass lock-outs like this.

All I'm saying is whether or not it was on purpose or not, the fact that it took so long for these "broken rules" to be caught and how easy it is to find other artists breaking the same rules but going unpunished - you guys really shouldn't be surprised when people decide to leave the website like this.

Yes, I get it. "We're only human", "we only have so many people", "Other fur sites have their own issues too" etc etc, but until these problems are ironed out to the point where it can be MORE consistent, I would not call it "dramatic" or an "overreaction" to decide to find a different site that at least has less issues to deal with.

Arkunus

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Well fuck. This sucks. I'm going miss seeing you on here.

Sparklyblanket

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Ik I’ll still get to see your art on discord and e621 but imma miss seeing you post your stuff, I hope one way or another you can still post the anthro only pics here :(

Either way still looking forward to more of your art wherever you decide to post it ^^

FurCollector

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Todo el mundo relax, va a estar de vuelta en menos de 24 horas.

Wolflover0329

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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I have been following your comics on e6 so I will keep an eye on you there. Sorry to hear this shit happened to you.

NeksusCat

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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It's sad to see you go, man...
At least tell us when and where you'll be updating, I'll hop on. ^^

JustahLurker

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Honestly, I prefer e621 over this place. It's a tragedy that there aren't notable platforms with artistic freedom out there.
Anyway, I'll gladly follow elsewhere; given what you create, you really shouldn't bother posting here if it's more work for you.
Maybe see you on Baraag!

Kinshuka

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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I completely understand why you're leaving, but I hate to see it happen. Your art, story and characters are amazing. IB is becoming worse by the day, that's for sure. Like ClarkRedheart said, Baraag is a great place to go. Wherever you go, I'll make sure to keep following you and your amazing art!

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

It seems like Everything, everything, everything -- is just getting worse and worse...

GumRoad / Patreon / PayPal / MasterCard -- are all banning NSFW Artwork and trying to be the "Fiction Police."

....(As if it weren't already bad enough when the Twitter Dorks were doing it)....

FurAffinity has long since been the "Godly Yiffs Only" website, and now the Puritanism Disease seems to be spreading to other websites... I remember long, long ago... when Fchan was the big battle ground for the "Cub Debate" way before FurAffinity was even considering a ban...

It's all a Domino Effect... as more "Puritans" (aka "Neo Burned Furs") join the Furry Fandom, the sensibilities of the fandom change and shift... what was acceptable in Furry Art 30 years ago is now something that is "problematic" and will get you canceled by a legion of Angry Twitter Zombies... people cannot separate Fiction from Reality anymore...

I hate to think that either Inkbunny or e621 would be susceptible to such restrictive puritanical thinking -- but let's face it, things can't and won't stay the same forever... the Puritans want the France and Canada Laws to come to the USA. The laws that will make drawing "certain kinds" of Furry Porn 100% illegal and a punishable criminal offense... what the Pro Censorship Dorks do not realize is that -- once those laws are done coming after the Cub Art and Feral Art, THEY'RE NEXT... lol lol lol....

I shall now quote Neil Gaiman:

""If there is something you consider indefensible, and there is something you consider defensible, and the same laws can take them both out, you are going to find yourself defending the indefensible.""

~Neil Gaiman

..........................

""Laws do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't like.... prosecutors are humans who bear grudges and fight for re-election.... one person's obscenity is another person's art.""

~Neil Gaiman

....................................

"If you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost."

~Neil Gaiman

Alfador

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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...Inkbunny has been like this from the very beginning, because of laws about depicting humans in sexual situations in the country the server is hosted in. It has absolutely nothing to do with puritanism, or wanting to clamp down. Furaffinity would delete the image and ban you if a mod decided a character looked too cub-like; Inkbunny just hides the image and lets you know what you need to bring it into compliance. Are we that spoiled here that we don't remember how much worse it is elsewhere? The only change here is that someone reported an image. (Wasn't me; I had no idea about the mosaic censoring not being enough thing, and in any case that too is a legal requirement, not something the site owners want to do!)

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Alfador

Yeah sure, InkBunny is better than FurAffinity -- for now.

Just like Fchan used to be a fantastic furry site -- until internal mod drama and outside influences started making Fchan into more of a place to "argue about what drawings are and are not problematic" rather than a place to simply enjoy furry artwork.

And great websites like Wild Critters (which primarily hosted Kemono art and translated Doujins) pretty much disappeared (or I think it had some "internal power struggle" too, and it got split off into Veebooru)....

e621 is still mostly decent..... but who knows if that will always be the case. The vibe and the attitude and the atmosphere there could always change... the Fandom is becoming more and more obsessed with the ideas of "Purity In Fiction" and "thought crime" and "OMFG, THAT'S PROBLEMATIC, YOU CAN'T DRAW THAT OR WRITE THAT... you have upset the U.S. BUREAU OF MORALITY, please stand by for EXTRACTION & RE-EDUCATION."

https://www.nin.wiki/US_Bureau_of_Morality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAgdihHcnlE

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

"Consuming or spreading this material may be considered subversive by the United States Bureau of Morality. If you or someone you know has engaged in subversive acts or thoughts, call [### ### ###]. BE A PATRIOT - BE AN INFORMER!"

https://www.nin.wiki/18664456580

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_tzig8_tOQ

Claws61821

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Alfador

This is false. As someone who was a member of the IB community within months of its founding, the website did not even have servers in the country you mention until several years later and did not have any rules against human characters until some time after the primary servers were moved there. When those rules were placed into effect, it was done suddenly and with no community outreach prior to the notice, causing a majority of users to suspect and fear that the site was being sold to Neer behind the scenes, and even when that was clarified to not be the case there was still mass outrage over the fact that the new rules prohibited humans who were clearly adults and species both fictional and otherwise (ex: elves, hairless cats, certain monkey species) long established as having clearly definable traits that differentiate them from humans in addition to prohibiting human children characters and characters of unclear distinction. Please get your historical facts straight before you make sweeping claims about what something has been like "from the very beginning".

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Claws61821

Dragoneer is a colossal hypocrite anyway -- 'Neer had artwork of his own "Cub" character (Preyfar, a purple hyena cub) in the SoftPaw Magazines... and if you go read the ARCHIVED forum posts discussing the subject, 'Neer argued IN FAVOR of preserving artistic freedom... but at some point, the pressure (from both Payment Processors and RABBLE ROUSERS and DRAMA STARTERS) must have gotten to be too much and he just caved in and gave up.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150821170440/https://foru...

'Neer even quoted "US code Title 18, Chapter 2256" which states in Section 11:

"""the term “indistinguishable” used with respect to a depiction, means virtually indistinguishable, in that the depiction is such that an ordinary person viewing the depiction would conclude that the depiction is of an ACTUAL minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct. This definition DOES NOT apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings."""

I am quoting and linking to Dragoneer's own words because CLEARLY HE SOLD OUT HIS BELIEFS.....

Yes, I know InkBunny is hosted in some other country that isn't the USA (which is also SLOWLY becoming its own Puritanical Theocratic Nanny State)... but I am quoting and linking to that stuff 'Neer wrote to point out that PEOPLE WHO USED TO BE HARDCORE PRO ARTISTIC FREEDOM can always SLIP.... if ENOUGH PRESSURE is applied.

Kadm

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Claws61821

This is a take. Most of the human policy is exactly the same as it was when the site was launched. You can view changes on the wiki:

https://wiki.inkbunny.net/w/index.php?title=ACP&dif...

If anything, the first version was longer and we edited over the years to be more clear and concise.

Human characters are permitted in artwork, however they must not appear in sexual situations and must not show genitals or sexual arousal.

Human characters are permitted in stories only so long as they are not involved in sexual situations of any kind.

Characters that are essentially human (pixies, faeries, elves, orcs, trolls, etc) or just have ears/tails or other superficial animal features applied are considered human for this rule.

This rule exists because of agreements with our hosting and payment service providers, and to allow our site to be viewed without restriction from most countries.

This is from 2010. Any conspiracy around Neer or anything else is fantasy not supported by reality.

GreenReaper

7 months ago

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Edited 7 months ago by Owner

@ Claws61821

Umm. This is a bit late, but in fact Inkbunny didn't allow humans in art at all for most of its first year. I know because I wrote a news story when that changed. Frankly, it would have been a lot simpler to keep it that way.

Xenos1992

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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It's sucks to see you go, but your art will always be a fun & cute, I hope you have find a different way as possible but it takes time

moyomongoose

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yiffy International use to allow depictions of human and anthro-animals having sex.

However, Yiffy did not allow depictions of sex between human and non-anthro.
And they did not allow depictions of sex between anthro-animals and non-anthro animals.

Yiffy had gone out years ago though.

KrystalTentacion

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Sad decision but very understandable, I don’t understand the moderators thought on your censored works because the mosaic censor was more than enough. If they wanted a pitch black bar censor they should’ve said it in the rule instead. And just read this is because you got reported while you’re still respected the rules, this is fucked.
Baraag and e621 are the place to go for absolute free expression, I’m also in a Discord with the VioletEchoes community so you’re more than welcome if you wish.

TepTepgi

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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wish you the best

Moss

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Not that I'm like boasting or anything but I'm able to sub to you on Substar and I'm glad to do it. I completely understand your position about IB. I know not everyone can sub to an artist but what I'm saying is I'll just catch your stuff on Substar.

KrystalTentacion

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Well after a discussion, the rule stated that even censored works that involves human characters are still not permitted and the hidding is the warning. The best would have to crop the pages like making them simple thumbnails and giving the links like you used to do. Still bad this situation happened, we got too heated here.

esanhusky

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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This is ridiculous, you probably adhere to the standards better than anybody that wants to post human stuff. Now I'm going to be triple pissed off any time I see an "Anubian" or other pretty much literal human here

R0XIZ

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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This is terrible news! I don't wanna see you go from IB! Those idiots don't realize how good you are, I'm super upset about this.

Killjoy

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Just shop animals ears onto Jin before posting the unedited pic as for some reason that typically makes it ok for other artists (animal ears and a tail means no longer human some how).

Clovertea

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Killjoy

According to the rules, they also ban kemonomimi actually...

I checked, because some writing I wanted to post has kemonomimi in it. Turns out I can't post that here. ^^; If you see other people getting away with it, it's just because nobody reported it yet.

Viro

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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At this point, you're better of just showing a cropped square of a character's head then link elsewhere just to keep pages organized and consistent. Still a lame rule given what the purpose of it is for as it treats artwork as real-life which has never made sense. I understand they do this due how certain laws in some regions take it given the site's location, but it's still idiotic.

Chuun

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Maybe you could use Baraag as an alternative? They have almost complete creative freedom for artwork there.

LupineLurker

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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T' say that this is heartbreakin' would be an understatement.

I'll still regularly check yer page here, jus' in case, if only to be reminded to hop over to e621 for updates.

I seriously hope this gets resolved, an' soon. You've become a staple o' this community; don't matter you include humans in your works. You make this place better jus' by bein' here.

Stay strong. An' if you ever need someone t' talk to, or vent to, you know how t' reach me over on Discord.

Love ya, Pip.

xcar

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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The problem with e621 is that one must have an account to see the R-18 pics, and many of us don't want to create another account to another site, specially if is one we rarely go, but if in e621, you open the image in a new window, and you put the link that new window, one can see it without loging to e621, so if you are going to post the pics there, please, could you also put that alternate link?

BizyMouse

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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This site died with AI anyway. And don't bother with glaze it doesn't work.

RadioAM

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ BizyMouse

And who determined that? You? So because you are intolerant of AI productions the site must be considered already worthless and "dead"? Gosh, the entitlement...

BizyMouse

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yes, because I am smart and you are stupid. 💅

RadioAM

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Wow, insulting and insta-blocking when confronted with logic~ Sure the level of "smartness" is reaching new heights according to this special snowflake rofl

NashVonTookus

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"AI good actually" is not """logic"""

BizyMouse

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ NashVonTookus

Allowing AI onto an art gallery is actually abusive. I feel emotionally abused.

Lloxie

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Very sorry to hear this. I actually only just now discovered you on IB, but I've been following your comic on e621 for a short bit now. Love your work, and I do hope you'll continue, even if you stop using this site. I know a couple other artists that have already ditched this place for various reasons. It feels like this place is on the decline, and if something doesn't change at some point, all that'll be left are the AI-spamming charlatans. But I digress. Sorry to see you go, but I totally understand. And I'm glad I'll at least still be able to see your stuff on e621. Wish I could suggest more alternatives, because it's never good to have all your eggs in one basket, but sadly there aren't many sites like this out there. I do wish you luck, in any case.

R3DRUNNER

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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good for you, post where you want to. i don’t think anyone can blame you for leaving after where the site has gone in the last two years. whoever said they didn’t see this coming isn’t paying any attention.

BizyMouse

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ R3DRUNNER

I saw this coming 6 months ago and felt that no other artist here has had my back about it, everybody just sticks their head in the sand. I cleared 7 years worth of art off of here after greenreaper told me to take a hike. Has anyone else?

https://inkbunny.net/j/493355-BizyMouse-ai-compromise-s...
https://inkbunny.net/j/494242-BizyMouse-goodbye-for-now

XPAuthor

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Man this sucks. Seeing your stuff was always a highlight whenever it popped up. But I understand your choice. I've had to... do some bassackwards shit to get around the no humans rule in the very few stories I have about it. It's dumb. I know why it's done, and I get it. But getting it doesn't make it any less dumb.

Kitsunesgod

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Nooooo!! What the fuck is with 'our' sites suddenly cracking down on the very things we come to these sites for?? I'm gonna miss you and wait for you on E6

noryn

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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bye~ ❤

NexusBlack

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Honestly good for you and every other artists leaving, this place has become so bad, they really don't deserve any of you.

TobyBaggins

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Though I will miss seeing your art here, I understand. I already follow you on other sites. Will see you on the flip side.

wollypegger

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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This stinks of an act of revenge.

brokenscale

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Since I currently can't use e621, I guess this is goodbye.

Lemotter

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Ai rules are also stupid thet reuire like the dna of the picture to be acceted

Nightdancer

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Lemotter

My main problem is, that NONE of the posters are providing the whole prompts.
They are always leaving the artists out (in order to avoid the drama), but IB isn't stopping them either).

Telain

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Nightdancer

And how are you sure of that? The problem is proving it.
Even stepping through simple prompts to prove reproducibility is time consuming and takes some amount of resources. And then, unless they're running on CPU generation, it's not going to be perfect.

Lemotter

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Telain

The ai i used is sort of random generated, same promr grenerates thousand of different images. But actually i not understand why that is a problem, as i not sell the image or like that.

Telain

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Lemotter

All AI engines use a seed in addition to prompts. But GPUs are also imprecise with their randomness, to put it simply, so certain parts of generations would need to be done with a CPU for perfect replication.

Nightdancer

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

I really don't understand why people even trying to post human art here and pushing the limits of this side.
The limitations are (also, but not only in order to get "away" with cub content) well known.
Even more surprising to me are the butt hurt reactions later.

I can understand the reasoning regarding the AI art. I would like to see a separate gallery (with less rules).
But bringing out this argument here is more whataboutism.

PaydayWolf

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Nightdancer

I think a lot of the butthurt comes from not seeing pipo upload here anymore - a very well known and beloved artist (I would also be pretty butthurt if you stopped uploading all your beautiful comms here too, ND.)

Staff are absolutely right to have the no humans rule however, but I think a lot of the problems people have is that it's considered inconsistent. What doesn't help is the understaffing, which hopefully should be fixed soon as IB is currently doing a recruitment drive.

At the end of the day, I prefer having the no-humans rule because it means the site can still safely (for the most part) operate - and importantly to me, we can keep cub content here. However I understand the problems people raise about consistency, and the AI art debate is a whole different can of worms.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ PaydayWolf

It's like -- if one person chews gum in class and they get punished for it by the teacher, but ANOTHER different person chews gum in class and they DON'T get punished by the teacher, then how is that fair???? It's "selective enforcement."

Telain

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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It's not "selective enforcement" when the one that was caught is sitting in the front of the class and someone points it out to the teacher, while the other is sitting in the back and no one is looking at them. If you see pictures that violate the rules, report them. There's a "Support Tickets" link at the bottom of every page. Mods can't act on what they don't know about, which is part of why Pipo got away with it for so long.

Nightdancer

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Look, I am free to drive through the red light, because someone else did it as well?
Or I am not supposed to be charged, as long as the others aren't also charged.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Nightdancer

Do you know how many people ALMOST HIT ME at a crosswalk because "Right On Red" is still a thing here in the USA, despite the fact it is VERY DANGEROUS for pedestrians? People here can't just WAIT for the white light (Walk Signal) to be over so they can drive their 2 ton death machine into the cross walk where I am TRYING TO CROSS.... yes "because someone else does it, I get to do it too" is a big mentality here.....

https://apnews.com/article/red-light-turn-pedestrian-bi...

ScottySkunk

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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damn. you will be missed

ninyall

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Think Ib is going to have a few issues from this Infaction as another artist I like has said they are quitting ib for some time due to this issue,

FallenArtsIB

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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ngl this is a nothingburger

just don't upload human art lol why are people making a bigger deal out of this

Kellyn

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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It is definitely not a nothing burger. The issue isn’t about human content but how understaffed, and incapable the moderation team is of applying the rules evenly to everyone, and in a timely manor.

That said it’s definitely a nothing burger if people are saying IB is changing for the worse.

FallenArtsIB

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Kellyn

just sounds like someone was upset the rules finally came to them then

Kellyn

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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It’s unreasonable it’s unreasonable that censored human is allowed. Don’t blame the artist for posting something that’s allowed. Tons of people post censored human content to link off site. Blame IB for allowing the rules to be so ambiguous and so slowly enforced that this happens.

NashVonTookus

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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no, they're upset because the rules weren't enforced upon them at all, for 3 years, despite the mods actively following their work.
It's a selective enforcement issue.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

""""""just sounds like someone was upset the rules finally came to them then""""""

Funny you mention, hahahaha....

https://www.flayrah.com/8924/fur-affinity-expands-rules...

And all the little Zangooses and the little Eevees cried and said "STOP, WAIT! MY CHARACTER ISN'T CUB! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? GET THEM, NOT ME!!!!!"

LOL Part 1

https://ibb.co/k52fS2G

.................................

LOL Part 2

https://ibb.co/6yTYC1X

...............................

Hahahaha..... wonderful.

RadioAM

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	...why are people making a bigger deal out of this

Because kiddy porn artist. I can guarantee you that if it involved a regular porn artist, nobody would give half a fuck~

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Did you just call a cartoon drawing of a fictional character who doesn't exist "kiddy p0rn?" LULZ......

The term “indistinguishable” used with respect to a depiction, means virtually indistinguishable, in that the depiction is such that an ordinary person viewing the depiction would conclude that the depiction is of an ACTUAL minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct. This definition DOES NOT apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2256

Section 11.....

...............................

It's also the SAME thing that Dragoneer quoted when people were pushing him to BAN CUB from FurAffinity....

https://web.archive.org/web/20150821170440/https://foru...

2006 Dragoneer was better, current year 'Neer sucks....

I want the ~COOL~ 'Neer back... the guy who fought for Artistic Freedom and also had art of his "Preyfar" purple hyena cub character in the SoftPaw Magazines, lol lol lol.....

RadioAM

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Chatin

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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......what?

#1 why are you even on this site when the majority of the content is that.
#2 fiction isn't reality. Stopped dumbing down terms meant for csam.

I really don't know if you're a troll or just that dense.

RadioAM

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Chatin

Is there even the slightest evidence in my comment stating that I dislike such drawings, or did I pulled out the fiction vs. reality conflict? No. I just pointed to a fact as big as a house. Keep walking.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Sorry, but any time someone calls cartoon drawings "kiddy p0rn" I immediately just assume that person is some kind of Twitter Nutjob with a severe case of "Oneirataxia" (inability to distinguish fictional fantasy from actual reality)....

CSEM and cartoon drawings are two entirely different things....

Just like Furry Artwork and "Bestiality P0rn" are two entirely different things....

To even imply the two are equal is a "False Equivalence" argument.....

Sorry if I or anyone else in this comment section reacted badly to your "joke"

But perhaps we've dealt with one too many "Antis" on the Bird Site???? lol....

RadioAM

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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It's fine. I just tend to use a more general term instead of choosing from cub, loli, kit, etc. but it seemed to lead to a misunderstanding.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

It's like calling a Sega a Nintendo -- they're both "video game systems" but they are not exactly the same thing.

Or calling a Pepsi a "Coke" -- they're both "soft drinks" but they are not exactly the same thing (and we all know that Royal Crown Cola is the SUPERIOR of the three -- JK).

.........................................

Cub Art is not the same thing as CSEM.

Loli / Shota Art is not the same thing as CSEM.

Chatin

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Well that implication was worse than your first statement. Good lord.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Chatin

Right? It's like calling playing Grand Theft Auto "performing the act of murder" -- lol....

No it isn't... NPCs in a video game are not the same thing as Real People.

2D Cartoon Drawings are not the same thing as Real People... it's silly to even use such phrasing.

Even as a "joke."

orangebox

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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cub pr0n is serious business

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ orangebox

You could always go back to FurAffinity.....

https://www.flayrah.com/8924/fur-affinity-expands-rules...

"welp guys, we banned cub, but that's just NOT enough -- we need to ban the SHORT POKEMON too! Short Pokemon is like, BASICALLY the same thing as CSEM!"

https://www.flayrah.com/8931/tagging-and-filtering-alte...

Qwazzy

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Feels like there's no such thing as a problem-free website anymore for this community. Every single one of them has positives and negatives, or in some cases, only negatives.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Qwazzy

I miss WildCritters, that place was awesome...

And Veeboru was also kind of okay.... lol.

Yuhbuh

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Hop on Baraag! Human on Anthro welcomed! :>

Caust

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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So was the censorship not deemed "sufficient" enough? Stuff Arianul posts hits front page all the time, and it's pretty much exclusively human with no fur. I assumed so long as junk was censored or cropped it was fine to link it off site?

Telain

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Caust

Censorship is insufficient. "Censored art involving humans must plausibly depict a non-sexual situation." If you see any in violation elsewhere, report them for review.

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ Telain

"“Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.""

~ Mark Twain

...........................

""If there is something you consider indefensible, and there is something you consider defensible, and the same laws can take them both out, you are going to find yourself defending the indefensible.""

~Neil Gaiman

...........................

""Laws do not differentiate between what you like and what you don't like.... prosecutors are humans who bear grudges and fight for re-election.... one person's obscenity is another person's art.""

~Neil Gaiman

...............................

Yes, I am aware that InkBunny isn't hosted in our grand United States of America where the freaky France Laws that banned Bunny Bits haven't reached (yet).... but I still quote these quotes because it's funny.... nobody thought that FurAffinity would ban cub, and then EXTEND that ban to include the Short Pokemon too, lol.....

...............................

""If you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.""

~Neil Gaiman

Lnarra214

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Wow, that really sucks.

ImpChadChan

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

It's called moral panic 🙄 and it's going to get worse before it gets better. But don't worry, the mechanic of moral panic itself is not self-sustaining. So, it will eventually get better. Anyway, by my part I will follow you wherever you decide to go :3

sillylilfoxcub

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ ImpChadChan

Yup, yup, yup!

And "moral panics" -- especially over FICTIONAL ARTWORK that doesn't even involve REAL PEOPLE -- is friggin' stupid.... nobody should CARE what you draw Tails the Fictional Fox doing.... nobody... it's a cartoon character from a video game...

SpyroBeddingCynder

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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Dam. Am sorry.

JackDesert

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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*evil grin* Umm sweety actually... going to miss seeing you here but I'll come visit you on e621. Loved the art here. Still sucks that it evidently was on the wrong side of the fuzzy line.
*gets ready with the pooper scooper in seven days*

Simplerock91

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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And another artist leaves.
I find it funny other users said stuff like this would happen and people called them nuts.
Can't believe how Murphy's Law is now an everyday occurrence.

Tigerfestivals

9 months, 3 weeks ago

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You can go on Baraag or Pixiv, they both allow basically everything.
The caveats being:

Baraag is small and more human loli focused.

Pixiv you'd have to bother with pixel censoring and linking to an off-site uncensored image or something, which may or may not be against policy idk. I've seen other artists do that and nobody seems to care. There's also tons of AI images there now, but you can filter most of them out with a setting.

Zazel

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Tigerfestivals

Baraag is anything but small, it has almost 45k active monthly users!

https://baraag.net/nodeinfo/2.0

Tigerfestivals

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Zazel

In comparison to inkbunny, FA, Deviantart and especially Twitter, it is my impression that the userbase is small.
Not to say that nobody is using it, but its a bit niche. I like the site myself.

Chira

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Tigerfestivals

if anything is FA now small since they basicly killed themselfs with their ToS.
pixiv is fighting aswell with the link to uncensored versions and its technicly not longer allowed either.
with other words, pixiv handles it in the same way like inkbunny does it now aka.
saying that it is on a different site uncensored? thats fine.
linking it directly in the description to the full version? not fine.

its about the links in the description

Tigerfestivals

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Chira

Idk i've seen people on pixiv directly linking to catbox or baraag. maybe those submissions are just old and in english so since the moderation is a Japanese team things are slow but idk. If it IS Pixiv policy to not directly link uncensored versions they don't seem to care or enforce it.
In fact, they're so slow with enforcment that they didn't even ask me to censor some of my uncensored or incorectly censored drawings I hosted on the site directly until like 3 years after I uploaded them and they already had over a thousand bookmaks and such. I was unfamilar with the rules at the time so it was my bad, but you'd think moderation would have noticed it earlier.

Chira

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Tigerfestivals

have to say here too o3o i thought IB made this change too but they didnt.
i thought they did. but after looking through the IB staff journals and getting my cheek poked really hard by

Kadm

seems it that i was in the wrong. could be that i mixxed IB with pixiv up aswell. iunno, am sorry @w@.

manicMagician

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Aw, damn! That's really stupid. I don't even get why that's a rule.
Unfortunate, I don't really use e621, and mostly just follow the links from the comics here...

thecooler

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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atleast give us the link here? with just a thumbnail even if the whole image is blurred here? pretty please?

Chira

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Edited 9 months, 2 weeks ago by Owner

the problem here with you is that you probably missed inkbunnys ToS update a while ago where they stated that they may not longer accept censored human pictures which get linked in the description to its full version.

as far as i know is it still ok if you write into the description for example "the full picture is on my baraag". but the full picture is here [insert link here] is not longer ok.

so, i simply recomment that you should click the notifications when they pop up ontop, expecially when it is about ToS changes ^^.

Chira

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Chira

btw i have to correct this.
IB hasnt done said ToS change. o.o
i thought they did but they havent. i even looked into the IB journals >w<.
am sorry if it caused confusion @w@.

DollyCloudy

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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No offense, it just feels like your ego was hurt, why are you punishing all of your supporters, on the site that Made You, just because of a single inconvenience?

Piporete

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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People made me not a site, protecting my work from AI is not punishing my watchers. And after delivering more than 100 pages for free without counting others free individuals drawings over this 3 years I think I'm in my right to choose when to release a new drawing, but I guess venting a frustration of mine with a journal is a ego move right?

DollyCloudy

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Users of the website made you, no website means no users, do you believe you could've had the same amount of success posting solely on e621? A website infamous among artists for being awful to try and get commissions or subscribes from?

And if the point of no longer posting is to protect your art from AI, wouldn't you have deleted your profile once the ruling on AI being allowed happened months ago? Not right now after you got upset over being rightfully given a warning for breaking the rules? Posting your art on a public art booru like e621 isn't the way to protect it from AI either.

You're fully in your right to do as you want your drawings, just admit to the actual reason why you're doing it. You're upset you didn't get special treatment from an extremely over-worked and under-appreciated mod team because you're popular.

Piporete

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Lol no, I never receive special treatment on nothing, on this page or in any other, even more I had to put the doble the effort here censoring each panel, each drawing, etc the same censoring other artist implement but now for them for my drawings is not good enough, so I'm out simply as that
Btw yeah I'm offended that you other people and mods think I want special treatment or that I want drama out of a vent journal, all of you are very wrong, but don't worry I'm not comming back. less work for the mod team no? anyways have a poop emoji 💩

DollyCloudy

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Good job not responding to any of my points, and good riddance.

alexey

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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lol Nobody owes this site any loyalty. Especially after they made AI permissible to post.

DollyCloudy

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Irrelevant whataboutism, if AI was the issue they'd have stopped posting months ago.

alexey

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Are you loyal to Twitter too? lol

You people are ridiculous.

DollyCloudy

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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No, I'm not loyal to the website owned by a psychotic billionare whose wife left him, I'm loyal to the site run by fellow furs that's the only one to allow cub art after tumblr, twitter (yes, twitter has banned loli/cub and the only reason you still see them on there is how bad that site's moderation is) and furaffinity banned them.

Make a less ridiculous comparison next time.

alexey

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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No one owes a fucking website loyalty dumbass lol

FurCollector

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Big words from a blank account...

How about these thousands of artists that were -many of them, unfairly- exiled from FA? What about these coming from Twitter? Tumblr? DA? Artists and their entire fanbases that had nowhere to fall dead, because the entire internet began to close doors for them, literally. IB was the safe haven for these escaping the witch hunt towards Cub Art and Cub-Like (Cartoon, Chibi, Sonic, Pokemon, etc.), and you have the audacity of saying that nobody owes this site anything...?? Wow, lol...

I'm not fully satisfied on how this site works since a long time ago, and AI is a concern that loomed in the depths of my mind for a good while by now, but that doesn't mean I could -nobody could, actually- deny facts such as every single Cub or Cub-Like artists owing something to this site, even a little bit. This site allowed them to post. This site allowed them to share. This site gave them a place to find them, and follow them. Anyone denying that is either a dellusional nutcase, or an ungrateful bastard.

As for you, Mr. Blank account... if I were you, I'd leave that lame AI escapegoat in the door next time you want to try a bad excuse to talk shit openly lol; as a blank profile who doesn't post art or doesn't commission it, you contribute to nothing, so AI could hardly be any threat or issue for you, don't you think so~?

alexey

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ FurCollector

Too long, didn't read.

DollyCloudy

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Oh, you just proved you're a fucking idiot, you're not worth arguing with.

FurCollector

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Right~? He can claim "didn't read" all he wants, but fact is that I bent him over so hard and shoved his head up his own asshole so violently, that he can't even connect his two braincells to answer to me :P

Andybanez

7 months, 3 weeks ago

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you can ,in the easiest way possible, tell things are getting VERY out of hand when a Lion-fursona user can no longer help itself against drama and a Ringtailed Lemur secret Hero has to intervene ;3

omegarook

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Have you considered The Jab Archives? Jim (Cheetah) of Cats n' Cameras runs it and he seems like a pretty good guy. And I know there is loli/cub content there - Monkeycheese, MisterD and many others post content there. I don't think you would be out of place there at all.

Aogami

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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Once you hit a certain level of visibility you attract the attention of people who aren't willing to look past stuff that is dubious or questionable about whether it's in compliance with the rules. You can take it as a sign that you're getting pretty popular. I've had to use other sites to host my human stuff since I moved my gallery here in 2011 because staff was on me the entire time. Usually they're pretty chill but if it gets reported and they do nothing it's evidence that they are willfully disregarding the law and they just can't risk it.

They do allow off-site linking though. I saw you made a baraag account, you can put your uncensored work in the description and link it here with just a thumbnail or a censored version and it works fine. I get it if that's a pain in the butt, it just depends on how much value the following you've accumulated here has. You'll inevitably lose people moving platforms, and swapping to mastodon has more freedom but also less visibility. You don't get notified when people you follow post, you just have to pray that you see it or regularly check their page and very few people are dedicated enough to do that.

Piporete

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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@ Aogami

You are 100% right, I also been thinking that there are also people that can't or not want for various reasons to create another account on other sites, so is also gonna be a pain in the butt for them too not being able to follow my works anymore here, so I can admit that is pretty selfish on my part I really don't wanna leave them behind, but I also need a time off the site the latest policies and the actitude of some moderators got me tired and this latest stuff I think it was the drop that spilled the glass at least for me, and when I read that they say I want special treatment or create drama is just worse, at least I know now what they really think about me, but well thank you very much for the suggestions I will be thinking about this situation in more detail

Aogami

9 months, 2 weeks ago

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