Organizing artists against AI by BizyMouse < Journal | Inkbunny, the Furry Art Community

KammyKay

1 year ago

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The most rational way to protest AI here is simply report ACP violations concerning it. Get familiar with the rules, browse the ai_generated tag, and report any violations you see. No prompt? Report it. Prompt includes artist names? Report it. More than 6 images with the same prompt? Report it. The model isn’t listed? Report it. The prompt obviously doesn’t match the image (ex. “photorealistic” parameters when there’s an anime style)? Report it. The image has a recognizable artist's watermark? Report it. Be as truthful, detailed, and accurate as possible. Take screenshots and link them in the ticket, especially for things like artist name prompt parameters, since often the uploader will remove them (falsifying the prompt) once they learn that artist names are not allowed. While the mods are capable of viewing edit history, the screenshots still help (as told to me by a mod).

It’s very unlikely that your report will be handled quickly. It may take several weeks or months. Doesn’t matter. Still report it. Don't complain about the turnaround time. Don't abuse the admin team here. Be as civil as possible, and don't try to start fights. The team just want a platform that runs well and is open to the most people. Their rules concerning AI were well intended but untenable. The best way to make that clear is by reporting when the rules are violated, which is often.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ KammyKay

I am literally not the AI police. I am not splitting hairs on AI tags and prompts. They just need to ban it or we're leaving.

John3031

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

I mean I'd start with as odd as it sounds a partition but would take a LOT of people backing it for them to pay any mind or some large-time artist that brings their traffic. I'm not saying go out of your way to shove it into there faces but at least see if they can help spread the word.

That's about the best starting point I could think of myself sure some others might have better ideas

Ravasker

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

I've already stopped posting because of the general acceptance of AI, it sucked away what motivation I still had left. The salt in the wound was someone that I had been teaching how to draw, using AI to make something that was "inspired by" my art. I still doodle once and a while, but I have no reason to post again let alone put the finishing touches on anything.

GreenReaper

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

Farwell, then, and best of luck elsewhere. 🐁🪤

Bloodhawk

1 year ago

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@ GreenReaper

Look, I know Bizy is a royal jackass, But I don't think saying

"	but if necessary I can sustain it indefinitely by myself

. is in the community spirit of this website. The moderators on this website have already proven themselves to be "seedy", especially regarding the recent decisions that took an alarming amount of time to action. I think it would be beneficial if artists had a vote rather than this weird moderator inner circle crap. (and yes, I'm talking about artists who have contributed work to this website for the past decade)

Don't be this guy with your server racks; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIUB5-uUENg

GreenReaper

1 year ago

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Edited 1 year ago by Owner

@ Bloodhawk

Bloodhawk wrote:

I don't think saying

"	but if necessary I can sustain it indefinitely by myself

. is in the community spirit of this website.

And I don't think excluding AI-generated and AI-assisted art wholesale is in the spirit of the website. So we didn't.

My response was blunt, I'll grant. I wanted to be super-clear that withdrawing funding will not influence such decisions. Nor will withdrawing artwork. Many artists I liked to see have decided that IB is not for them over the past decade for various reasons. While I might regret that on a personal level, I try not to let it influence my decisions.

"	The moderators on this website have already proven themselves to be "seedy", especially regarding the recent decisions that took an alarming amount of time to action.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to, but a delay doesn't mean we were trying to let a particular issue slide. It usually means we have other things to do - in my own case, about three other sites, as well as a wiki database user group - or are uncertain as to how best to address the issue in question.

We know there's a ticket backlog, due in large part to a limited number of active staff - something we're attempting to remedy, as you can see. Any delay is unrelated to AI other than that we spent a lot of time debating that internally - as was the case for the other major policy decision on the front page - and to enforce the resulting policy.

"	I think it would be beneficial if artists had a vote rather than this weird moderator inner circle crap. (and yes, I'm talking about artists who have contributed work to this website for the past decade)

To be clear, moderators don't have a vote per-se, either. They're empowered to make reasonable decisions in individual cases, subject to review. When it becomes clear that there's a core policy decision to make, everyone has their say - often in the context of existing on-site discussions, tickets/PMs or moderation actions - then I make the final decision. Should one of them really disagree with that decision, they can resign. (It's happened, once, though not recently.)

In the case of the AI policy, we read a lot of artists' journals and they formed part of our discussions. The decision to continue to allow it was mine, based on my understanding of the site philosophy - particularly the Acceptance and Deal With It sections, but also the bit about chilling out - with concessions to restrict cases that appeared to have the greatest negative impact, based in part on those journals. Other staff drafted the announcement, and I rewrote it and added some explanation.

Regarding "contribution"... as I see it, someone like Lunicent or Yurusa contributed to the website by providing wallpapers and T-shirt images. They were compensated respectively with clothing or sponsorship, not special influence. For regular members, the "deal" is we host and serve their work for free, in many cases when similar platforms will not. (Yes, we get traffic as a result, but unlike most sites we don't profit from that. It just means we have to pay a bit more per month for a bigger server.)

Some have taken the wrong lesson from that, i.e. we're for particular topics (other than "furry", as mentioned in the terms) rather than against censorship of artistic expression generally - in this case, including AI. My wiki background makes me reluctant to pick one side over another when letting both express themselves is an option. And "I don't care if I don't have to see it, it shouldn't be allowed" is exactly the position taken by opponents of work that you and others arguing against AI enjoy.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ GreenReaper

This site is going to be nothing but AI crap, obviously. Due to your ideological folly. New artists can't get followers and old artists grow tired of it and leave.

Ai.inkbunny.net is something I'd leave you alone about and I'd be curious why it wasn't on the table.

KammyKay

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

Ok, GreenReaper’s response is exactly the response I was expecting. The fact of the matter is, a platform that allows cub porn does not give a damn about anyone’s personal take on morals or ethics. The staff here do not care if anyone threatens to walkout or writes a strongly worded letter over AI. Those who support AI simply laugh when such attempts are met with apathy by the staff.

Yes, it is deeply frustrating that AI was allowed here without a vote or a proper consultation of the artists that helped this platform flourish, but understand that pounding one’s fists and demanding a change is not going to change anything. Inkbunny made an honest attempt to address the ethical concerns of AI by imposing rules such as requiring a prompt, prohibiting artist names in the prompt, prohibiting artist-based loras and models, etc. Such rules are the strictest that I know of any platform that allows AI. And while I strongly believe that these rules are completely unrealistic and unenforceable, this is nonetheless the staff’s excuse for not bending to the will of any further ethical concerns.

What will get a conversation going among the staff is pointing out the failure of the rules. AI’s existence here is fully dependent on the idea that Inkbunny’s rules are tenable, which they are not. ACP violations are everywhere in the ai_generated tag, but no one on staff is actively going through the tag to find them because there simply isn’t anyone on staff who is interested enough to do so. The staff are almost entirely dependent on user-generated reports with this, so if no one is reporting, then all seems well to them. I know from experience that accurate, honest reporting is the only thing that gets a conversation going in the right direction. Since I’ve starting reporting, they’ve been more and more willing to discuss policy and changes to the ACP. The staff are not interested in creating a platform that pleases everyone, but they are interesting in having effective policies that don’t yield a crippling level of administrative overhead. The more it is made clear that their policies don’t work and will never work, the more pressure it is going to put on them to make changes.

You asked for artists to give you their ideas on the matter, and I gave you mine. Screaming loudly does nothing. Staging a walkout does nothing. Tagging the admins every time this topic comes up does nothing. What works is using the support tickets to make it plainly visible to them that their policy isn't working and that their support of AI will always be a source of problems.

AutoSnep

1 year ago

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@ KammyKay

Nice of you to take the mask off. 😶

whitepawrolls

1 year ago

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Not an artist, but I'm all for blocking it :)

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ whitepawrolls

I can't bury my head in the sand. Leaving it unblocked.

ManaAraxis

1 year ago

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Edited 1 year ago by Owner

Doesn't help Admins are complacent about AI art and it's impacts towards real artists. As well as turning a blind eye that it's been proven to be plagirism for AI to generate art. @Kadm

GreenReaper

Breetails

1 year ago

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I'm with you, sign me up. Its no different then tracing.

GreenPika

1 year ago

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It always boils down to money. If enough supporters tell IB that they will NOT be renewing their financial support if IB continues to host AI art, that would probably make something change.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ GreenPika

Perhaps there are too many coombrains here to save it. Might need to abandon ship.

GreenPika

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

I've always been a black pill in that regard. Most people are only on these sites to fap and sadly give no fucks what happens to the artists who make their spank material. If they can get it for free from an AI that steals material, they are perfectly fine with it. Until they manage to completely destroy the sandbox, none of these immature people will ever respect artists. The same thing that happened to music years ago, is now happening to visual art.

GreenReaper

1 year ago

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Edited 1 year ago by Owner

@ GreenPika

Our position has always been that if you don't like how the site is run, you shouldn't donate.

Inkbunny's hosting costs ~$10 a day. It's great when people offer to help out (and let me take the opportunity to thank you for your past donations, which helped keep us going back in 2011 when costs were higher), but if necessary I can sustain it indefinitely by myself. Our last drive was in 2020.

GreenPika

1 year ago

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Edited 1 year ago by Owner

@ GreenReaper

I'm aware of the site's stance. If people like it, become a supporter. If they don't, don't. Simple as that. IMO however, Inkbunny is short sighted on the AI issue. It will get worse. It will drive people off the site. It's just a matter of time and enough people becoming effected. A backlash to exploitive AI use is inevitable. Right now, it's still early in the game. 5 years from now, no one will be able to ignore it.

Daneasaur

1 year ago

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I'm a writer-type of artist, but my concerns are no different and I too abhor the fact that the excuse is "Oh gee I just can't tell when it's "AI" and I'd have to actually do my job of moderating".

I will not post a single image or story here until it's mass banned and removed. The users doing it are NOT artists, they are thieves and should be treated as such.

Until "AI" is completely nuked from the site as a whole, not a single submission will be posted from me of the quality art and animations made by hard working artists.

ShySketch

1 year ago

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@ Daneasaur

Did you code the art software you use to draw?  Did you mine the rare earth minerals needed to make the microelectronics in your tablet?

Why stop at AI?  Unless we are scribbling in the dirt with sticks we found on the ground ourselves, it's just not "art" right? x3

All you're doing is hurting yourself.  Either you post your art for money, are are depriving yourself of that, or you post it to make friends and sharpen your craft.  Just because the megacorp, international media made propaganda to condition you that it's "wrong" and "stealing."  They only do that because they have been bribing politicians and the military all over the world to point guns at people who their lawyers have declared to have "copied" their designs.  Ever notice how "copyright law" never seems to help anyone who doesn't have at least $100 million?  That's by design.  AI doesn't violate any copyright, they're just trying to brainwash you so that you let them point guns at people who use the AI art tools.  They want to be the only ones allowed to use AI without having a gun pointed at them.

Balto

1 year ago

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I fear that nothing will change. AI is here to stay, and it will, and not in a far future, ruin many artists. Especially if the galleries refuse to do anything against it being posted

ShySketch

1 year ago

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"Direct Action" is when you ruin someone's source of income because you're a psychopath who found a group of idiots who you could brainwash with a script you wrote.  Then, after your fools can recite the script, you gangstalk your target until they're in poverty.

It's like when I got permabanned from FA for no reason cited, and then was fired from the career I went into debt and years of university for.  For refusing to take the "mandatory" government injection at a government injection site, refusing to carry the government identification card indicating that I have recently had a supervised experimental injection at a government injection site, for refusing to write out my full religious views, and a few other things that everyone was brainwashed to "Direct Action" about.  I was never given any official reason for losing my job or my FA account.

This place is, refreshingly, a place for individuals.  Stop trying to "collectivize" everyone's beliefs in line with what you get piped into your electronic devices for "free" by multi-national media conglomerates worth billions of dollars in real money, and with more power than any one country in the world.  I mean, they got everyone locked down into totalitarianism, in every country.  That's some serious power.  You should really, really stop letting them decide what your "algorithm" is and creating propaganda to manipulate your specific demographic.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ ShySketch

directly telling you to shut up, weird robot dude.

Peppercorn

1 year ago

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I think it's worth throwing my hat in the ring to at least make my stance known. AI art is theft, and I can't see any other way around it. Inkbunny's been my home for a long time, but the sleepless nights I get from the very existence of AI make it very hard to want to stick around. It's a shame the owners seem to put the interests of thieves over artists.

Good on you for putting your foot down, I hope enough will do the same to the point of making our concerns truly seen and acted on by the powers that be.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ Peppercorn

green is so addicted to stolen AI art that he has promised to pay for the site out of his own pocket if necessary to keep it stuffed with it. All these problems could be solved by sending it to ai.inkbunny.net in the interim.

Krayton

1 year ago

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Edited 1 year ago by Owner

Yeah I'm marginal on IB after considering it my only home for so long because, and ONLY because, of the unavoidable deluge of ai genned garbage that's allowed to be dumped here now. I don't WANT to go elsewhere, but considering the fact AI isn't made "for or by you" and ib staff are just conveniently ignoring that as the floodwaters consume more and more of the community and overwhelm the actual art here....

Lets just say I'm looking for other options as thin as they are.

"Just bloook it!" I have... in fact it's one the TWO blocked tags I have and yet about 1/4 the popular page and new subs are now "attractive" grey blocks with an x in them.

I have no problem with people wanting to puke their bulk stolen trash someplace online, but not an ART gallery site.

WTF inkbunny? SERIOUSLY.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ Krayton

all could be fixed and forgiven with ai.inkbunny.net

Krayton

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

You're quite right. The genners get to post their piles, greenreaper and co get their ai pictures, actual artists, writers, and musicians don't have to deal with the flood of stolen garbo, some directly from them, directly pushing their work into obscurity and it can comply with its own "made for you or by you" rule.

I sincerely doubt they will though, that'd take dev time and money. I'll sponser ib at 20 a month for a year if I'm wrong.

Tigerfestivals

1 year ago

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They don't ban it for a few simple reasons:
1. There's so much of it that it's hard to moderate.
2. It's difficult to distingush it definitvely from actual art at this point, which creates more potential moderation problems.
and
3. There's a reason it's on the popular pages, people like it because its pretty and don't care about the ethics.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ Tigerfestivals

It's literally banned on e621 and furaffinity with no problems, but go on. If the cub community just wants a bunch of AI I'll be moving on, but I still think the main problem lies with the ownership here.

Tigerfestivals

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

Notice how i didn't say impossible. I was implying that the moderation is lazy.
The art community and people in general just seem to want AI generated stuff, unfortunately, seeing as how sucsessful patreons and similar services are with AI generated "Art" and how its flooded so many art sties I've used. I actually had no idea that FA and e6 banned it, good on them for doing the bare minumum.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ Tigerfestivals

Because it's easy to.

Kupok

1 year ago

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I see you're doing the thing again.

As with 5 months and 3 weeks ago, Try not to act shocked if people are unwilling to trust doing business with you when you inevitably decide to advertise your services once again.

In the meanwhile, Nightshade is a tool you can add to your works to make databases regret scraping your works without your permission. Get your pals to use it. The more works that are poisoned, the more useless AI will become. Kill it at the root.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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Edited 1 year ago by Owner

@ Kupok

I will advertise my services 😎 I'm not posting art here anymore though. I don't see the point in it.

Also I want to add night shade does nothing for me. I don't have a style AI is gonna do well nor do I draw that much to worry about it. I mostly do animations and vrchat avatars and sculptures. My concern is the website getting hosed with AI which overshadows the actual art.

Kupok

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

Even if computer generated algorithms do not often use your scraped works to influence an outcome, the mere presence of the poison in the database effects all outcomes. The more poison there is, the more damaged AI generation becomes.

This is the direct action you have been seeking. Do not spurn it.

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ Kupok

That doesn't sound like banning AI from inkbunny. Blocking you now.

Bloodhawk

1 year ago

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@ BizyMouse

Kupok really does make a good point, I don't think there was much need to block him xD;

BizyMouse

1 year ago

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@ Bloodhawk

I just get tired of people telling me to do things that have nothing to do with the issue at inkbunny.

AutoSnep

1 year ago

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Edited 1 year ago by Owner

@ Kupok

Last time I checked, people in the AI community failed to reproduce the results promised by Nightshade developers. They've spent many days trying different ratios of poisoned images and different poisoning techniques, but nothing worked. The initial idea was to develop an antidote, but it's impossible if Nightshade doesn't work in the first place. 😆

Overall, Nightshade is just adding random noise to your images which makes them look like garbage, especially if an image has areas of similar colors. It won't affect training results in any meaningful way, and it won't protect art from being cleaned up and used for an artist-specific style model. It's similar to DeviantArt watermarks — it punishes fans by making them look at low quality images just because an artist is afraid of their art being stolen.

I haven't been following news though, so maybe somebody managed to reproduce Nightshade results. 🤓

Zayats

5 months, 1 week ago

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For a real artist, creating from sincere love and inspiration, the existence of AI is not a problem. It is a problem only for profiteers who draw only for money. Creativity and money are incompatible.

BizyMouse

5 months, 1 week ago

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@ Zayats

All the real artists left this site.

Pyravia

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

AI art is convoluted plagiarism. Until there is regulation and rights management on training data, AI art should not be allowed- if ever, on a site focused on artists. Nothing people say will ever change that fact that typing prompts into a machine trained on mountains of real art does not make someone an artist.

Allowing AI art here is an extremely clear disconnect between the administration and the artists who have committed so much to this site- and it furthers the distrust ingrained after years of lackluster moderation.

BizyMouse

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Pyravia

This site is cooked

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