Inkbunny

Oh ok good to know. Thinking this was what started the FA kerfuffle, I lost a little bit more hope in humanity for a second. Not to say that the original (just looked at it) and its consequences restored any hope, either.

IBp

6 years, 8 months ago

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IT BEGINS

BullseyeBronco

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ IBp

*gets popcorn*

moyomongoose

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ IBp

Curtain raises...stage lights on..."Let the shooooow begin!"

Athendae

6 years, 8 months ago

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How dare you have a reasonable and rational worldview about social identity, you shitlord!

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Athendae

I know! here take this torch! lets go light something on FIRE!

KaloTheSkunk

6 years, 8 months ago

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It's not inherently evil to have your own ideas or opinion that is contrary to another's
Making demands that an individual share your opinions and conform to your ideas this effing instant, is
Validate yourself. Don't rely on everything but yourself for validation

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

@ KaloTheSkunk

screw that, its law in NYC and canada...call a man in a dress him and go to jail! or pay huge fines, refuse, go to jail. This is what is crazy and abhorrent that make people want the hate on a group....and I spent time in gay clubs...remember when there was such a thing as trannies? they dont fit the agenda anymore..no more drag queens...sigh

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

und I still want um was it ottey the otherkin otter mascot? How speciest...only otters can be otherkin XD PS totally agree with Roary on this issue I think. Because I posted a journal 2 yrs ago on FA, just saying I don't understand the whole transgender thing...this led to reprisals and me being permabanned by its PC admins. They banned journal...then said, well you did nothing wrong, you can repost it? like I saved it. Then they dug up a 3 day suspension on a 3 yr old post because of a nonsexual comic where a horse had balls with an *ahem* "underaged" character....namely big mac was walking along side Spike and OMG a horse had balls..nothing sexual...just walking...but suspension.,.,...really reaching...seemed like a vendetta...my complaint...led to permaban...how dare you complain we suspended you without warning over a nonsexual post cuz balls on a feral horse.

Danjen

6 years, 8 months ago

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Can't say "tranny" anymore either. And speaking of Canada I don't think we're allowed to criticize Islam anymore either. But only that religion. Can't remember if that bill passed or not but I think it did

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Danjen

it did... Canda has lost most of my respect

Raverwolfboi

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

What about like... free health care.

And not being run by a bigoted orange man.

And not having a crippling society.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

@ Raverwolfboi

there is no free health care. you are not entitled to free services free labor or free skills. Sombody somewhere has to pay for that healthcare and while im ok with assistence for people who cannot otherwise afford healthcare, you shouldent just "get free healthcare" im not paying for your shit.

Trumps is not a bigit, he is a bit of a moron and he is orange so very, very ourage.

finaly =p our socity is one of the most secsessfull on earth, theres nothing crippling about it.

RainbowNUUki

6 years, 8 months ago

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also, who cares he is orange ? the last one was black. why we gotta judge people by their skin ?

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ RainbowNUUki

You know what? You are 100% right! I think the Canadian above me must be racist against orange people!

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Raverwolfboi

its liberal lies. The canadian healthcare system has been declared an abuse of civil rights for its incredibly long wait times for treatments, lack of available doctors, etc. by its own supreme court One person told a story of their mother needed to be treated for a minor leg ailment and had to wait so long, by the time she saw a doctor, it needed to be amputated. The courts allowed for a pay for treatment system for the rich folks. It has been stated the pay for fee vets have pets being treated better medically than humans.

As to how it would work in US...one need only look to the abuses in the V.A. system for vets. Same problems.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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it's allmost like all the doctors are swamped by a massive amount of people and no new doctors want into the feild becouse this system sucks out a large portion of the incentive to be a doctor.. huh...

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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agreed...you see same thng in US now where docs do not want to take any medicare patients...too much regulations and paperwork

whitewulfe

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Raverwolfboi

I have to disagree on the free part. Some provinces you are paying every month (or every quarter) to cover basic health care costs, and this is something you HAVE to pay for. It used to be $44/quarter per person here in Alberta until about ten years or so ago, and ever since the new government took over there's been plenty of talk about how they're going to not only bring it back, but quite possibly make it a monthly fee. Then there's what one has to pay for extended benefits, so the bill for things that aren't covered by "standard" health care will be a great deal lower in a lot of things... In my case, $83 CAD every two weeks right off of my paycheque (or $2,158 CAD per year) - and that's not factoring in the $2,400 CAD portion my employer subsidizes on said benefits! While most things do have 90% coverage at those rates, some of them are limited to only 70%, are restricted to every year ($500/year covered for things like massage therapy or physiotherapy in general, but thankfully they're in different categories), every two years ($300 chopped off the cost of a pair of prescription glasses, which barely does anything as it's wise to have two pairs, but at least $1,100-$1,200 CAD in glasses becomes slightly cheaper - the joys of astigmatism and/or higher prescriptions), or lifetime (dental work, some other types of things). And that's hoping you're with a company that offers direct billing, which sadly the new company policy doesn't do, but you're reimbursed approximately 24 hours later via direct deposit.

Is it as expensive as other countries? Nope, but it isn't what I'd call free by a long shot, since I'm using up about 7.5% of my gross pay to be able to cover myself and hubby just in case something happens.

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

@ Danjen

yeah its odd these laws are aimed at protecting extreme minorities (less than 00.5% of population) so there is no political gain from doing so, other than they recently appear to be highly vocal and given a voice in media far outweighing their presence in society. I scoffed when they did the same thing with homosexuals. 4% of population, but every tv show has a token gay or gay couple on it, introducing the mildest forms of gay lifestyle (wacky friends usually in comedies) but excluding most of what would shock the public. Was listening to a gay song last night (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCsmW-i20uA Throw your hooves over my head! lol) and had to look up handkerchief codes lol.

But now it seems like ridiculous inclusion of trans and islamic people in tv shows when its unlikely you would find one in real life (one in 200) (These are the same odds of getting murdered by the way :P Looks at Islam heheh and twice those odds of dying from obesity...no fat shaming either folks) And PS those laws are now in NYC too and creeping elsewhere...I do not see how they would survive a 1st amendment challenge in US, unless the courts are totally crooked (and yes the supreme court is crooked - see its crazy support of obamacare, its support of stop and frisk laws, police powers, and civil forfeiture.)

mstc

6 years, 8 months ago

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What do you mean? Drag queens are totally still a thing. But drag queens are an alternate expression of gender, and not (in my opinion) in any way related with being trans.

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ mstc

They still exist, but its a lot less than when when I was younger. In tampa, when I came out, there were 3 bars with drag shows. Now there are none. I think this might be because they are no longer seen as edgy, but something passe. You never hear about transvestism anymore is my point. If it werent for Ru Paul, you wouldn't see much of them anymore, when they used to be in a lot of 80s and 90s movies and tv, birdcage, prsicilla queen of the desert, tootsie, victor/victoria, mrs. Doubtfire or too wong fu.

mstc

6 years, 8 months ago

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Well, I disagree, because I see just as many transvestites in the media as I used to, and just as many drag shows, and I live in a pretty liberal area where if someone did take offense to it, they already would have.

mstc

6 years, 8 months ago

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also see RuPaul's Drag Race

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ mstc

aiight....dunno where you live but tampa is a 2 million person area, 13th largest in US and no drag shows left, they all moved to orlando....and I mentioned Ru paul, which is on a gay network.

MaxDeGroot

6 years, 8 months ago

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Those who seek the approval and validation of others in order to be happy will never be happy even with that approval and validation.

lazor

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'll say this, be whatever gender you want to be, do what you want, I don't care. As long as you're not an asshole you're cool in my book.

Stratus

6 years, 8 months ago

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I'm not drunk enough for this. It seems reasonable but i'm sure in a few hours there will be at least a few people to 'prove' otherwise.

Woofstep

6 years, 8 months ago

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I believe Canada is an example over how identity needing to have power over others has gotten out of hand. Even if you accidentally misgender someone you could get fined for that should they press on with that! That doesn't sound right in any sense of the word and I'm happy that at the very least such laws aren't rampant all over the world. (From what I've heard from Canadian furries, those fines aren't exactly numerous, but there are those who do like to take advantage of that to screw someone over.)

Sleepyly

6 years, 8 months ago

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Yup, respect is earned, not given, im pretty liberal so i can understand non conformism but just dont force me to accept any label you give to yourself.
Im impressed there isnt an angry mob with torches and forks right now.

GreenFur

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Sleepyly

and that is the whole point here, it is FORCING people to accept whatever whackadoodle label they think up next.
if you want to 'identify' as an "attack helicopter" don't be too upset if someone takes potshots at you. call yourself whatever you like, but do not expect me to go along with it.
--GF

TheAtomicDog

6 years, 8 months ago

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Full ticks.

Straitfox

6 years, 8 months ago

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The tail does not wag the dog.

DeadAccountLOLXD

6 years, 8 months ago

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OH NOES

OnAnAxle

6 years, 8 months ago

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Like, it's cool that you're voicing your opinion and all, and I don't really disagree with most of what you've posted recently, but I use this account to masturbate. I can't masturbate to political opinions, man

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ OnAnAxle

If my art was the only thing on this website I might, possibly, maybe sympathise with your dick. But it isn't, so I don't.

Charliemon

6 years, 8 months ago

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haaaaaaaaaa

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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I mean... at your you puased to consider the importence of Dick wanking ;3 thats what i love most about you man, even when your being political you have you eye on the big priorities ;3

seriusly though you could just slap a dick on this unicorn and say problem solved XD j/k

moyomongoose

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Nahhhh...Attach a 8 inch length of garden hose down there. Nobody will know the difference.

Wit a little poiple paint, it oughta look like a tally-wagga from a distance anyway.

Vincentive

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ OnAnAxle

I can.

Raverwolfboi

6 years, 8 months ago

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I love how some people gleam the correct message of this and others talk about how transgender people are just transvestites and are horrible.

I can't wait for other, way off left field responses.

Chibimon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Tarocco

6 years, 8 months ago

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zzzzz

RagnarArcano

6 years, 8 months ago

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I like this one becuase it explains the idea of personal identity without having to get into the rabid idiocy that is gender identity, i am completely aware that there are only 2 genders and simply saying that in todays age being the same as straight up calling someone a troglodyte or even worse. You easily explain what personal identity is and how it should be seen...you sir have done this website and community a service and should be highly commended for it.

Mole

6 years, 8 months ago

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.... So if I demand to not to be considered as a chair.. then i'm not accepting responsibility or accountability?  I don't think identity is a negotiation or anything you're pushing.

I think this comes from the gender unicorn..  the gender unicorn was just an idea to give a different view of gender.  You can have a binary view on gender, the unicorn promote a broader view.

This identity and gender stuff.... it's not even about identity or gender.  It's literally political correction... meaning -- how to be considerate to other people.  I consider one of my friends a pedophile.. he wants to be considered a cub lover or adult baby.. I don't go out of my way to call him a pedo.

Demanding to be label as whatever identity doesn't promote anything fundamental.. it's just demanding to be treated politely with some small degree of respect.  If you can follow along with them, good for you.. if you can't... it doesn't make you scum.. just a little rude..

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Bullshit. Making demands of people to refer to you as something in particular is demanding they remember how you like to be classified, to specifically make a special place in their head just for you, simply because you exist. If you insist you are a chair, for example, I will not call you a chair because you are, in fact, not a chair. You can be a chair in your private life, be a chair to your heart's chairy content and I'm not in the least bit bothered by it. Once I'm involved though, if you insist some control over my language I'm going to be hostile, because it is NOT polite to do such a thing, it's the height of impoliteness. People are not special just by existing to other people, people become special and important by forming relationships of one kind or another. Unless you have such a relationship with someone, you've no business interfering with their perception of the world.

To say that you have complete veto on self-definition is to claim you are whatever you say you are and the opinions of other people do not matter. You can do this if you want, fine, but you will not be accepted easily by others. So if you want a decent social life you have to permit others to have a say in what you represent to them. If we only define ourselves, we can commit any crime, be as nasty as we like, then just identify as a wonderful, lovely person. Do you not see how that very thing describes pretty much every shitty person on the planet? Desiring a path to shittyness be the social rule is to promote a complete breakdown of social relations. Fuck that noise, you're not a chair, get out.

Mole

6 years, 8 months ago

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wow.. you're projecting more into this than what I said... which makes me think you didn't bother understanding what I said...but fighting your own personal battle against nonsense.

Let's just try again so at least my message come through... before you get triggered.

1) identity is not a negotiation... you already know there's self identity and how people see you.  You could negotiate on identity.. but the concept of identity is not in itself one.

2) Your gripe over the gender unicorn is just people having a broader view on gender.  You don't have to accept that broader view..Just understand between you and them.. there's a disagreement and 'that is it'.

3) This entire issue can be summed up as politeness.  Not your bullshit about acceptance and better life or anything of that.   Just rather or not you want to be polite to someone and adapt what they consider for themselves.

Though my example was if I _don't_ want to be considered as a chair... people don't need to have a correct view of who you are.. and people can consider you however they see fit...   BUT.. if I wanted to be considered a chair.. it would only be politeness if you follow along.  It doesn't change how the world work or social structures.  And if you don't call me a chair.. It's just you being a 'little' rude and nothing else.  People don't need to be polite or rude, so it's a non issue.

... and finally... if you listen to yourself..

"People are not special just by existing to other people, people become special and important by forming relationships of one kind or another. Unless you have such a relationship with someone, you've no business interfering with their perception of the world"  I know you meant this about identity... but doesn't this fit along with you pushing your thoughts onto other people in hope of changing their mind and perception of the world?   I think you have a higher standard for the issues you don't like than you have for yourself.. and you can't see the hypocrisy.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Everything you've said here is either in complete ignorance of my argument or assertions without arguments to back them up. Politeness? Haha, whatever dude, you do you XP.

Mole

6 years, 8 months ago

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My initial response could be summed up to "You're making this a bigger deal about this than it has to be" .. where you can either be polite and respect their wishes.. or you can be rude and reject them.  You lean towards being rude... and i'm not advocating you need to be polite

You didn't bother to hear what I was saying and proceed with giving me some bullshit.. starting with a redundant explanation of what a 'demand' is and you explaining why you would reject any such demands.   You tried to make some logical explanation for your reaction... but it comes down to a decision..

... but I get the hint.. you want me to address your arguments.and to argue... but do I really need to argue if you submit to people's demands.. it could easily be interpreted as being polite?

From your other comments.. it seems you see this as the left trying to control identity.  Obviously I don't see it like that.  For me, it's just a group of people trying to broaden the understanding of gender.  For me, when people make demands to be considered as one thing or another.. It's no different than using a person's name.  Personally, I don't think your gender or sex define who you are.... so I don't get the big deal in fighting against people who consider themselves something different.

I think your arguments is just a fancy way of saying no to them.. .when you don't even need a reason or justification

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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Roary is exactly right and what is worse, this is BECOMING and has BECOME legislation by activists pushing it. In both Canada and NYC it is illegal not to use whatever pronouns they request or to change it whenever they feel like for gender fluid types. You can be fined HUGE sums for coerced speech now. And it is entirely likely you can go to jail for it. It's just insane.

Mole

6 years, 8 months ago

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"	cobramcjingleballs wrote:
	Roary is exactly right and what is worse, this is BECOMING and has BECOME legislation by activists pushing it. In both Canada and NYC it is illegal not to use whatever pronouns they request or to change it whenever they feel like for gender fluid types. You can be fined HUGE sums for coerced speech now. And it is entirely likely you can go to jail for it. It's just insane.

I actually had to look this up.. in NY, it's for business professionals. Normally.. that's common sense that you refer to customers and partners by what they want. The new york rules seems to be for the few businesses that don't want to go along with the normal standard of being professional and polite.

There are reasons and a history of such rules in the USA.... especially desegregation and women joining the work force. This isn't something new that came to shock you view of reality.. but something with a precedence that enforce in professional life you should be treated with politeness and a degree of respect. We have laws to protect women and minorities by including harassment laws.. Trans people are becoming a reality, so they get the same protection.

But that's the professional life.. where you already know it's not to call people nigger and sugar tits.. so just consider this the obvious steps in a world with trans

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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I notice you neglect the law in Canada that applies to everybody in the country. It is also not just a measure for protection of discrimination or a harassment, it is the enforcement of speech requiring people to use whatever pronouns the person decides to use that day or face a large fine the business $125,000 for accidentally using the wrong pronoun and $250,000 if it is done intentionally for each time its done. That could easily drive a small business out of business and is utterly ridiculous. The harassment civil rights protection on the other hand that you compare it to only applies to discrimination in hiring and repeated harassment that rises to the level of making a hostile workplace that any reasonable person would acknowledge. It does not force people to use speech, which could easily be used as a weapon against those people. Further there are no criminal punishment with those laws. There are no fines even, it results in a possible CIVIL lawsuit. It certainly does not legislate politeness, it tries to eliminate hostile work conditions.

The idea that a business can be fined for using the wrong words is insane. The idea that you can enforce politeness by law is also ridiculous.

Mole

6 years, 8 months ago

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You're correct, I didn't mention Canada.. because I don't know the specific law or the back ground.  And I'm not sure if the freedom of speech is the same in Canada as it is in the united states.. in short, you might have a right in canada to be called what you want to be called.

You can call that over reaching.. but it could be the normal standard over there.

I think the bigger point is i have to research it to debunk your none sense when it comes to the NY law.  You don't have an honest look at it and you're opt to make assumptions... for the NY law.. it's for repeatedly calling someone by the wrong pronoun or doing it intentionally...  and there are obvious measures to prevent making that mistake.. which is also included in the law.

The only way you can get fined  is if you purposely ignore the standard of calling people what they want to be called as.. in short, being a jackass.

There are two more points...

1) you do know a store can be liable to a law suit if an employee use a slur on a customer.. So it's not just for employment.  In the states we do have laws to protect customers from discrimination.  So you can already lose your business for saying the wrong word...

2) to eliminate hostility is to promote politeness... with the two words being opposites.  I'm sure you just meant there's a difference between what's happening now.. but there's not too much of a difference.  If you live in the US.. maybe refresh yourself on desegregation or the women rights movement.    These laws weren't created so people can lose their business over a mindless mistake.. they're set up to maintain some standard of respect and punishing those who refuse.

Me being a person who work two jobs for a living.. years before this became a real issue, I already signed my agreement that I call people what they wan tot be called and i understand I will be terminated if I refuse.  That's not my government doing it, that's my job.

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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If what you say is true why is there located in the NYC law that fines are doubled to $250,000 if meant in abusive manner rather than normal fine of $125,000, which is excessive in itself.

1. you can not lose a business because an employee said something a customer did not like, slur or otherwise. Under civil rights laws, they can only be sued and it must be proven in a court of law that the employer knew about this behavior in the past and did not take action to prevent it. Most businesses would just fire the employee upon investigating if complaint was true and then no lawsuit would win.

2. the opposite of hostility is kindness, not politeness. Politeness includes good manners and etiquette, the most kind person in the world can be its real opposites, rude, ill mannered, uncoath, unpolished. And I do know the history of segregation, do you? My irish and italian ancestors were discriminated against, but respect has to be EARNED. No laws till recently say you have to respect someone, those laws say you can not discriminate (such as not hiring a certain race because they are that race) or create a hostile work environment (in order to get them to quit.) As example, I was discriminated once against a job because I was wearing a stud earring as a guy. That is not a sue-able offense.

I've worked um over a dozen jobs and never had to sign anything stating I would call people by the names, let alone the pronouns, that they requested (especially if they can change those pronouns on a whim as this law dictates)

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

.. before going further.. I think I need to add that there are protections for businesses to prevent being over fined.  The law.. like many laws the fine is 'up' to a point.  Meaning that's just the max, not the default.   If a company or store only make so much, they're not going to be charged the max.. but if it's walmart, then yeah.

With that out of the way

1) Actually, a customer can sue a company if they believe they were discriminated.  You can literally google "Angry Customer Sues slur" and get hits..... so that wasn't something you knew as true.  You just have a lot of confidence and didn't even bother to check yourself.  You can sue a company for discrimination on treatment.. which is the realm where this tran gender pronoun stuff was heading.

2) .. kindness and rudeness are opposites.. But i get it.. a kind person can be rude in particular situation and etc etc.   maybe open up a dictionary before trying to lecture.  I will admit politeness and hostility are almost opposites, but I think i made my point.

In your personal life, you can give respect to anyone for whatever reason.. or not.  But in the professional world.. there's a standard.  You prefer not to make the separation when talking about the NYC law.. which only deals with the professional world... You say there was no law since recently that forces people to respect others..... Maybe I'm the fucking crazy one.. but what about all those laws that forced people to serve minorities and treat them like whites?  Back then people didn't believe blacks earn the same respect as white people, so there were segregated services.

You never had a job where you were force to agree to respect other customer...maybe you didn't have a high end customer service job like I do.  Every year I have to go over ethic sensitivity training and agree to guidelines to avoid discrimination.  I had it 10 years ago at my hospital job, my bank job, and my two current medical jobs... so it's been apart of life for me.. so this is just an obvious if not invisible next step for me.  If a dude wants to be called a chick the next day.. it's silly, but technically the customer 'is' supposed to be always right.. so why does it matter either way?

.. and should I even add that we're in a place where people make different identities, play different sexes and pretend their children, rabbits, lizards and what the fuck ever... Most people already treat me like a dude having no idea if i am or not.  Half the foot is already through that door, just take the next step and stop resisting as if it's it's on principle.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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and BEFORE you go further.....I totally think people should be nice to each other.  Accept or respect everything in YOUR life?  Hell no.  Are you proud and would want to publish for the world to see the worst things you have done in your life?  Probably not, because there are definitely things I have done in my life that I have done that I do not want known, mostly as a stupid kid.  Definitely could never run for public office, except maybe in CA  heh.  I do not say people should respect or accept everything I have done.  MOREOVER, I would be aghast if any of my personal choices, behaviors or anything were forced upon people by law to accept under threat of fines or jailtime.  That is the absolute opposite of freedom and shows total lack of respect and politeness toward the people who disagree with you.

Further this is not hate.  I think the gay lifestyle for instance is a HORRIBLE lifestyle, and I can testify to this, because I have lived it.  You are far more prone to STDs, some deadly, far more prone to encourage drug use and cigarettes, far more prone to indoctrination into perverse life choices.  The attack on this observation of facts (I'm sure everyone who is gay has known drug addicts, escorts who end up as drug addicts or infected with many diseases, or just ended up with diseases) is usually, you are self hating, rather than paying attention to facts.  I am the least self hating person I know, I am awesome.  XD  I do not hate gay people either.  Criticism of something is NOT hate.  Nor is saying that some things are detrimental and should not be promoted by society.  Transgenderism rates probably one of the highest things on my list to this for facts, not hate, not impoliteness, but facts.  2 facts in general and 1 feeling.

1. 40% suicide rate whether they get operation or not.

2. the psychiatric origins of its acceptance.  Look up Dr. John Money and his pedophiliac tendacies, taking a botched circumcision to say he should be raised as a girl (convinced parents to further cut off his balls as a kid)...he had him and his brother play act sex acts and took pictures to train him to be a girl.  The parents balked at sex change surgery as a young teen and cut off contact with the doctor, but the "transexual" boy "changed" back to being male and married a girl, but both boys committed suicide before 40, probably due to the abuse that messed them up as kids by this doctor.  This doctor proclaimed his efforts as a success that gender is a social construct.....this took place during mid 1960s to late 70s despite not knowing the outcome, because SCIENCE.

and feeling...this led me to getting kicked off FA because of transgender activists because in a journal I merely said I do not "get" transgenderism as a gay male.  The feeling is this:  if you feel you are different than what you physically are....how do you know what that other thing feels like?  (being the other sex, an animal, a car?  a tree?  a rock?  how do you know what a rock feels like?  why is this different than IMAGING what a wolf feels like being or the opposite sex?)  I am male.  I know what a male feels like because I was born one and every cell in my body is coded to be one.  Going back to self love, definitely not self hatred, being a male is awesome, so being a rock or a wolf would be worse and I can think of icky reasons not to want to be that...bleeding once a month or eating raw meat off top reasons.

Bottom line NO one should be forced by law, which means at gunpoint to your freedom or money, to accept, respect or even be nice to anyone.  Not that you shouldn't but FORCING someone is facism.  It is taking away the freedoms of others and that is above your feelings.

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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Okay.. i pointed out that the NYC law isn't as dire as you made it to be...  And that in the USA there are laws the forces businesses to respect other customers and to avoid discrimination.  That's where i left off.

You say people shouldn't accept 'everything'.. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.. you don't even have to accept trangenders..  However, fake or not, they're becoming a thing and the law is catching up in order to protect them.  When it comes to your example with New York City...  you in your personal life can be whatever you want.. but if you're going into the work force.. you have limitation on your freedom... don't pretend needing to use the proper pronoun is any different than wearing a uniform.. or being forced to wear clothes.  You already have a standard forced on you when you go out in public, this is just an addition to the rest of them.  The only difference is you don't agree with the standard of calling trans people what they want.... though you don't mind you can't work buck naked.

Though my original reply may have been forgotten... and i won't blame anyone if they didn't read it... initially I said the entire issue is about politeness.. if you can be polite and play along with the trans.. good for you.. if you can't, doesn't mean you're evil.. just a little rude.

Personally, I don't buy the initial premise of being transgender or sex misalignment.. people say they are really A.. I say they want to be A.  But that's where it ends... if someone want to consider them-self as another sex, i don't see any issue simply respecting that wish..  It's not a big issue of relationship or whatnot.. it's the difference between saying Miss or Mrs, or Mr.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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I again totally disagree.  You try to say its just politeness and make an argument that I don't have the freedom to work buck naked.  Actually I work from home so I can be.  However what you neglect to see is that it is NOT THE GOVERNMENT forcing you to wear a uniform or work in a dress code, it is the business that you make a free contract with to do so.  If you don't like their dress code, you can quit.  You can't quit government rules because they will come after you with guns and take your freedom or property away.  That is the difference.  "Politeness" as you say should never be mandated by laws and punishments, its coercion then, not politeness.  You seem to fail to grasp that the arm of the government doing this is taking away rights of the majority to appease an extreme minority.

Further, politeness is an incorrect term, as I pointed out and means acting following conventions that can be absurd.  Sticking your pinky out when using a teacup or bowing before a queen.  Usually its following odd rituals.  Saying godbless you when someone sneezes (based on superstition that demons may enter your mouth) same for covering mouth when you cough.  In eastern societies its inpolite not to burp, while in west it is.  Wearing shoes inside a japanese house, or dunking food in soy sauce there, or using ketchup in a fine restaurant.

These are all rituals of a society and its subunits.  However, this creation of 80+ new pronouns is ridiculous and its mandate by law is further ridiculous as they are NOT polite, they are not established rituals.  Demanding you call someone a made up word is disrespectful and then saying I'll sue you if you don't is an act of aggression and force.  I don't see why you can't see this.

For example, if someone used my wrong name, I'd correct them, but people habitually get names wrong all the time.  This is a plot device in lit/movies all the time, that people seem to forget someone's name on purpose because that person does not deserve the time or respect to remember it.  I'm thinking of Doctor Who and Clara's boyfriend.  Sometimes people do this playfully....I've have friends who call me Jimmy instead of James.  (even though I loathe that since it was my name as a kid, as my father was James also, but I accept it as their attempt to be more intimate calling me a special name.)

If a pronoun offends you so much, then you have deeper issues than what they are doing.  Anyone who allows words to hurt them generally does so because they identify with those words and allow themselves to be hurt by it.  Or they now just want to force it on people as an act of power over others and again is aggressive and a rape of speech...how is that polite on the other person's part who demands it?

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

.. you work from home, so you can be buck naked.. but you know once you leave your house.. you can't. So please stop pretending the government doesn't enforce standards for us.. and if you do live in the USA.. you 'do' have to wear clothes to go outside.. if not you would be arrested for indecency.  The point was that there is a standard that is enforced on you.. sometimes by where you work, sometimes by the city, sometimes by the state.

There are already laws against harassment and other shit people don't want done to them... and it seems you prefer to completely ignore all of that.. when that was my point.  And there's a personal life and a professional life.. in your private life you can call people whatever you want.. including nigger fag and what.. in your professional life.. you can 'not'

You find it ridiculous with all the pronounce.. I can see that.  But in the end, you get the right to be called what you want to be called... and it seems you would benefit from it too if you decide to exercise it.

You want to rant that if people are offended and blah blah blah... Myself.. I don't care.  Personally i don't believe people have a right to not be offended  -- HOWEVER... i'm not going to pretend this is some new bullshit.. this is just adding to the old bullshit  that made some sense..  Trans feel they are oppressed. adn even if the condition is make believe.. they have the right to be refer to as they wish.. considering at no point do you decide to call a dude a dude.. with it just being a simple traditional standard of assume people gender.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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no I just think you are expanding decency and harassment laws WAY beyond their original intent. No one is harassing someone by calling them the wrong name or pronoun. NO ONE, anyone who can compare that with stalking, violent intent and making someone feel unsafe is an idiot.

again the aggressors are the one demanding you use the language THEY choose you use. There has never ever in history been such laws, EVER and it is a coercive act to make someone speak as YOU want them to. You are the violent person in demanding it by law. PERIOD.

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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You believe no one consider it harassment being called the wrong pronoun... You already know there's a group of people who do believe that's the case.. which is why they're offended. And for decency... laws... calling someone the proper name is like wearing clothes in front of them.. I've been making this comparison since the beginning with my talk with you. You just seem to not want to acknowledge it.

You've been crowing that there has been on such law that force people to respect each other... where we literally have decency laws. You might think it's ridiculous.. but don't pretend such laws never existed... there are laws that enforce a standard on how we treat each other.. it's just where do we draw the line.

But we already have laws where guys can't say niggers to customers if they want.. you just skip that part of legal history.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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again you conflate showing your privates in front of minors and other people and forcing people by force of law to call you what you want, even if you are not that thing biologically, or made up words you want them to use....those 2 things are NOT the same...one *IS* decency, dont be naked in front of other people and the other is you coercing speech AGAINST their will or you will sue them.

How ridiculous this is, one ingenuous college student seeing how ridiculous this is, when asked what his chosen pronoun was, wrote down, YOUR MAJESTY. By college policy, the professors and students must refer to him as that. Are you ok with that?

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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cobramcjingleballs wrote:

.. you mean conflating forcing not to show your private in public with forcing people to call you want they want. But this is why this conversation stop being honest..Both can be considered a measure of decency.. it just happens you agree with the anti nudity laws.. but you disagree with the self identification laws.

You insist they are different, but they're the same... one for people who are offended over pronoun.. the other for people offended over your nude ass. In the USA, what you decide to wear or not wear have been linked to freedom of speech along with actions like flag burning...

You are right... decency laws is "don't show your nude ass"... and this pronoun law is "don't use the wrong pronoun".. but for some reason you see them as COMPLETELY different while ignoring the _don't_ and how both infringe on your freedom.

To answer your question.. because i AM interested in being honest with you... I don't have the ability to give a fuck to disobey a professor on their silly request... but more than likely i just don't refer to them as anything and don't talk to them since I have the right to not say a fucking thing.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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the difference which you continually fail to see...is one set of laws say what you should not do. Don't go naked in front of other people, showing respect to them. The other FORCES you to DO something, use my words or else. One is a restraint on action the other is FORCING you to do something you may not want to. Do you see the HUGE difference?

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

"	cobramcjingleballs wrote:
	the difference which you continually fail to see...is one set of laws say what you should not do. Don't go naked in front of other people, showing respect to them. The other FORCES you to DO something, use my words or else. One is a restraint on action the other is FORCING you to do something you may not want to. Do you see the HUGE difference?

..... if you go out nude, you can be fined, go to jail, or be place on the pedo list.  There is no such thing as 'should not' in law.. you either obey it or suffer the consequences when someone reports you.

Even take how you explain it... distinction without a difference...  I can easily say the tran pronoun law say what you should not say.  Don't go call people a gender they don't identify with, showing respect to them.

And after a few days of talking.. you just fucking admitted the decency law makes you show respect to people.. when at the fucking start you said only recently there have been any law that forces you to respect someone.    You were going off on how respect had to be earn... though I don't see anyone earning the respect to have me wear clothes in front of them.

And to end this line of thinking.. you can still call people what you want.. you just get punish if someone report you and it is apart of the law.  Laws literally can't force you to do things.. you can break them if you want to..

You're splitting hairs  saying this law is any different than any other law while missing the point that our laws enforce a standard on us.. and how this NYC law simply include trans.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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No again...this is not splitting hairs. decency laws say you can NOT go naked in public...not for respect for them but they will lose respect for you...you should be ashamed going naked in public and not do that in front of children. Show some respect for YOURSELF and the people who know you. I.E you should be ashamed doing such behavior. Again difference is what you should NOT do...rather that what you SHOULD do.....there are very few laws saying what you SHOULD do?

Here's one of weird exceptions..paying taxes....our government compels us to do to, but still says its voluntary in documentation...because the federal government can not by law compel you do to anything, but courts say in midnight decision yeah you have to pay voluntary taxes, just like the courts said recently, the government can compel you to buy insurance...this is more steady erosion of rights that the government compels you to do things...so...how long before the US follows canada that not using 80 pronouns correctly puts people in jail, which is in insane.

so again...the guy who listed as his pronoun on his college acceptance, as YOUR majesty...should his students and professors lose their career and their livelihoods if they refuse to call him your majesty in class?

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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It seems like splitting hair to me.  Because you can use the exact same logic to justify the pronoun law.

"you should be a shame of yourself for not addressing people how they want to be addressed.  Show some respect for yourself."

But the difference is.. you agree with the anti nudity laws.. so of course you will do mental gymnatics to justify it. .. though I don't know what you're going about the difference between should and should not... having a law saying you should not be nude.. is basically saying you should wear clothes.  Rather it's "should" or the negative "should not".. it's still telling you what to do -- which is the entire point of laws

BUT.. if that is the hair your splitting.. then think of it as the law telling you "you should not call people what they don't want to be called"

THOUGH... i thought we were talking about a New York law that put a fine on people in the professional field while leaving people in their personal life free.. with the notion that in businesses there is a higher standard that needs to be held compare to people personal lives... where a customer service can't call people a slur without putting the company they're working for at risk of a discrimination lawsuit.

The reason i had to remind you of what we were talking about is because.. no one is going to go to fucking jail for using the wrong pronoun..  you will only suffer any consequence if it's clear you were trying to be a jerk about it.. which has to be proven in court.. meaning it has to be really fucking obvious.  In canada.. i'm not certain of the laws there, i know your freedom of speech is limited.

Now for your mock example.. I'll just use the word you.. because we don't live in a modern society that recognize people who believe they're royality.. we live in a world that's recognizing trangenders... I don't want to go back to the day when people did die for not showing proper respect to the people who were the law.. but live in a world where our law are created by representatives and enforced by the will of the people.  If you want to be called a chair, i'll be happy to comply.  But obviously it has to be within bounds of reason.  I'm not doing any "Princess Angelina Contessa Louisa Francesca Banana Fanna Bo Besca the Third"

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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please address me in future as "they royal godhood naga majesty, lord of all you see" because that is my gender now, or else you are breaking laws in canada and some states, because I feel I was born that way XD

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

You did make one point... this isn't a establish ritual.. and it's not polite.. ritual start some where and we are in a society that is recognizing trans. You say it's not politeness.. but if someone want to be considered as a chair.. I would think it's polite to humor them. We just have laws that nudge people to humor others and treat each other with a little bit of respect.

When it comes to this... people don't need a law to do this.. for hte people who do.. you know what.. fuck y'all. You literally already benefit from laws and standards like these.. so you being angry about it is acceptable but not important.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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1. While it may be polite to humor someone if he thinks he's a chair, its horribly unkind to humor mental illness. Should you humor someone whose anorexic as they slowly suffer and kill themselves?

2. no I dont think I have ever benefited by nondiscrimination laws ever. I always got jobs based on merit, not my race or class, and personally I am against such things. There is a reason in the US these new laws apply only to businesses, because government can regulate businesses and it would be unconstitutional and beyond government mandated powers in the US to regulate people like they do in Canada. It would be against free speech. Personally, I think government regulation of business is an overeach in itself, which only started 100 years ago, which is why business is hampered so much.

Mole

6 years, 7 months ago

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1) You already know people used to consider being a homosexual as being mentally ill. It could be an illness or it could be a choice. But if it's a choice, there's nothing wrong with it.. right? But again, i see this as a matter of politeness.. you either do or you don't.. and sometimes politeness is enforced on us by the law.

2) I said laws and standards.... and i've spent a few days trying to explain it's not only contain in the business world.. but it doesn't look like you can have an honest conversation on how the system actually work.. which is why you're treating a normal process of legal acceptance as a big deal.. we did it with the blacks.. we are doing it with the gays.. we're doing it with the trans. They did it with the gays and i'm sure you're happy about it.. but it doesn't stop there.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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well therein we agree to disagree...you think the government by force of law, which means gun to your head to imprison you or take away your property to be polite. I think THAT is abhorrent and the least polite thing you can you do...forcing someone by gunpoint to be polite or punishment...

you dont seem to have a problem with politeness by gunpoint. I pity you and your morals. Final word...do not respond. I find you abhorrent and fascist if you truly believe you can get politeness by gunpoint.

Yiffox

6 years, 7 months ago

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and all sexual deviances from norm were mental diseases back then...by psychiatry, which is made up "science" by consensus. However ones that are blatantly harmful should be considered mental diseases...being attracted to same sex is a choice, more like a developed taste, speaking as a gay man. I was not born gay, i made a lot of poor choices, which elevate me above the whole sexual paradigm. I was schooling teenage girls (i had a gaggle of teenage girls off internet following me around) when I was 18 that they have all the power over men way before the MGTOW and modern feminist movements which deny this somehow. (interesting that feminist claim there is no difference between male and female, but transgender activist claim there is...I am awaiting war between liberal transgenders and liberal feminists....biology trumps them both. Minds are neutral, cells are male or female)

so yes there are BAD CHOICES...your idea that all choices are equal and good is just wrong...so heres a choice take the red pill or the blue...both are equal right?

Nick2Shy

6 years, 8 months ago

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......this damn unicorn is just too adorable x3

Teddy

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

I'm tired of groups of people telling me how I'm supposed to treat them.

I treat _individuals_ by their actions, not their gender, religion, colour of their skin or sexual orientation. If you act like an asshole, I'll treat you as one. Respect is earned, not given. If you wanted to be treated with respect, don't be a douchbag.

It's not rocket science people.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ Teddy

carefull there! I know that back in the 60's and 70's people fought to escape lables but the SJW identy polatics loveing crowed ADORES there precious lables. they gotta lable everyhting! they even come up with new lables for "normal" so people who fall into any catagory for any reason that is not "normal" dont have to feel like they arnt "normal.

to wich i say whats wrong with being "not normal?" Normal is boreing more often then not =p

CottonCandyPanda

6 years, 8 months ago

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Not to mention that normal means "most common occurrence." So normal is context sensitive.

mayhew

6 years, 8 months ago

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Woot! its a personal thing not something that need legislation or juries. yes! :D

hope we never have a miss-gendering law, it'd cause war for sure.

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ mayhew

Canada and NYC already do and its being spread to other cities.

mayhew

6 years, 8 months ago

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things gonna get bad. i prey america has enough respect of human rights as to not imprision miss-gender-ers, if so every "woman" becomes whore in my book until the law is repeled, beacuse Fuck Trans-philic policing.

Yiffox

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ mayhew

well its liberals virtue signalling (and sad I know that phrase or it even exists)...like I said, its law in NYC but dont know how they would get around first amendment.

rosebuster

6 years, 8 months ago

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I liked your first unicorn the most. This is the third one already. I wonder how many more there will be. All the actual debates aside, I think the way you draw these unicorns is adorable. <3

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 8 months ago

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I find the rhetoric in this description very clever. The second sentence tells us what identity IS, and then the second one refers to identity in a specific sense. This is an effective technique for appealing to the people who agree with the fundamental message, as well for operating as a preliminary defense against people who disagree, in that you both IMPLY an objective meaning for the word, while also STATING that it is non-objective at the same time. And there is no true fallacy here, because of the implication versus the statement. Again, very clever.

One part I do have to disagree with, though, is this claim that value is derived entirely from interactions among people—something you did not state, but implied explicitly when you stated that if identity in the above defined sense is not considered a social negotiation—or, in a sense, a compromise—then actions would become meaningless. I believe 'meaning' either derives from life/death dichotomy, or if not exclusively from that, then most likely is capable of being derived from a multitude of things. I do not believe it exists solely in relation or as a result of social interaction.

Functionally, however, I do agree with the general idea behind this message. It seems like an effective appeal against behavior and ideas that are, to my knowledge and perspective, dangerous to everybody involved.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

@ YaBoiMeowff

I don't state that value is entirely derived from others, but our significance as a person does, because it is measured in relation to other people. I describe what identity is first and then talk about it in a specific sense because this specific sense is the thing being abused by identity ideologues. Its not to do some sly bait and switch. The far left push the idea that ones subjective sense of self is the identity society has to adopt as the truth. So its not that you don't get to have your own sense of who you are, its that you don't get to then demand society unequivocally accept that definition of yourself simply because you have it. Fundamentally, if society must define you only by how you define yourself, then you can never be accountable for anything you are or do without explicitly consenting to it. So I'm not playing games with words.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 8 months ago

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I didn't mean you were trying a bait and switch, but more the logic you used to formulate the statement was clever and difficult to refute in the immediate sense. I referred to this as rhetoric, since I do not regard your explanation of identity as an intrinsic definition, but more of an assertion--which of course is fine and possibly even reasonable, but I won't get into that.

But I'd like to be sure I'm understanding you correctly and fully, so please tell me if I have this right. Your attempt here is to reconcile the dichotomy between 'identity' being defined elusively by internal sources, or exclusively by external ones, and are making the claim that this idea of 'identity' is instead defined by (or better defined by) both, and is possibly a summation. You say that the logical/philosophical/ect. implications of the exclusive-external definition absolves one entirely of accountability, while the implications of the exclusive-internal definition absolves one of value. Is this correct?

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ YaBoiMeowff

Essentially, identity is what feel ourselves to be but practically it can never be just that, because we are social beings who live in societies. Because we are part of society and benefit from being so, we have a public identity resulting directly from our interactions with other people. I think the two sides exist simultaneously and I see the identitarian, collectivist left trying to demolish public identity for themselves but not those they consider enemies. So a conservative can be a racist, a homophobe or whatever they have been branded with and they should never be able to escape that, but if one of their team wants to identify as a different race, gender or whatever else they fancy, then they can. It's a move to remove personal responsibility, albeit I think it is unconscious for the most part, in that people aren't fully aware that's what they're aiming for. If only society defines us, we have no individuality, if only ourselves define us, we have no accountability. So, as with all things, there must be a compromise, a negotiation between the two. What we end up with is being an individual with rights that are respected, but we also have the corresponding responsibilities to go along with it. When that breaks down, so do human relations.

dropNchop

6 years, 8 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner

I just want to start off with and Thankyou to

YaBoiMeowff

and you for keeping the conversation civil.

I have a question for

RoareyRaccoon

and I'll try to phrase it the best way I can.
In the reply to Mole's post it was mentioned that personal relationships tie into this issue of personal
identification.

"People are not special just by existing to other people, people become special and important by forming relationships of one kind or another. Unless you have such a relationship with someone, you've no business interfering with their perception of the world."

If I'm misunderstanding please explain, so that I can better understand. If personal relationships have a component to if these names should be used, would you if in such a personal relationship consider using them?

AlyssaKamber

6 years, 8 months ago

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Expect just about as much heat over this as you got over the other one. Outside of Reddit and Tumblr, most people are easygoing about identities. But if you believe the internet, they're all grabbing people by the collar and screaming about this.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 8 months ago

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@ AlyssaKamber

There hasn't been so far and the reaction to the last one was almost immediate. I think most of the people disgusted with me last time around have simply blocked me XP.

AlyssaKamber

6 years, 8 months ago

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