Inkbunny

would say axis 5 go with 3 or 4, it allowed but very look down on. Fore 2, 3 would be good if you wantto add to the circumcision analogy other then that all of them are good.

for the show and model thing. Picture a show like Hanna Montana or zach and cody, but staring a fixed kit. For modeling im pictureing internet videos and build board showing fixed kits and adults. maybe some parent get their kit fixed just so they can get a job as a model.

Pyrogenetic

8 years, 8 months ago

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1.- 5
2.- 6
3.- 5
4.- 4
5.- 3

Seems like a solid survey. But what the public would be okay with...well considering we seem to be going into 'government knows what's best for you' direction I don't really know, however that could also lead into eugenics which can be pretty dark although logical too.

CeilYurei

8 years, 8 months ago

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How I feel in order: Axis 1: 1
Axis 2: 1 and MAYBE 2,
Axis 3: WHile down to 3 may seem good, 1 and 2 are best.
Axis 4: 1, and 2 to be reasonable
Axis 5: 1, and 2 if the "pet" really loves pet play.

RoyalTheKitten

8 years, 8 months ago

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I've got 3 views on this, my personal view, and two in character views, one dominant, one submissive.

Personally:

Axis 1 - 0 (Kits haven't got life experience enough to understand how they feel, that's why they can't join the army, get married, and don't get executed for crimes generally.)
Axis 2 - 1 (Assuming the standards are able to show the kit has complete understanding of the ramifications.)
Axis 3 - 3 (Since the previous 2 leave this less an issue.)
Axis 4 - 5 (Pethood could be a good system to replace prisons.)
Axis 5 - 2 & 5 (2 for voluntarily pets, 5 for compelled pets)

In Character Dominant:

Axis 1 - 3 (Parents effectively can do this today with other medical issues, organ transplant donation for example. Hell, sometimes they can do it over a disagreement anyway.)
Axis 2 - 6 (As with the last, really the parental relationship is more controlling than any Master Pet relationship. Considering the society in 2050s with lots of readily available placements for adoption, this seems like a good way for a breeding pair to handle too many kits.)
Axis 3 - 2 (Don't want any kidnapping victims to slip through, don't want any extortion, etc.)
Axis 4 - 5 (Hey, sometimes the kits might be older and try to fight their parents wishes, this is a two sided coin. If they can block a parent via courts, they can just as easily be ordered via courts.)
Axis 5 - 5 (A pet is a pet. It defeats the point of Pethood if they can back out. You don't want to become a pet completely, don't. There's plenty of other options for you.)

In Character Submissive:

Axis 1 - 1 (This isn't a game and the kits should understand what they are asking for. Completely Voluntarily, but parents shouldn't be able to prevent it either.)
Axis 2 - 1 (This just goes along with showing the kits understand what they want.)
Axis 3 - 2 (I'd be afraid of someone coaching a kit into it otherwise.)
Axis 4 - 3 (It _is_ a business, screening is there to keep people from doing it without understanding it.)
Axis 5 - 3 (There is a reason for safewords, Pethood is a 2 way street, but you don't want to hurt your partner by telling them they're going to far either. Better to make sure boundaries are known ahead of time so you don't have to break character without need.)

Chrontius

8 years, 8 months ago

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I love the justifications on each answer! I should have asked for that - I'll get so much more useful and interesting feedback that way...

Once I sit down to answer that for myself, that's likely to be helpful.

CeilYurei

8 years, 8 months ago

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Only life saving proicedures should be forced on kits, not sterilization. As for the idea of being able to be legally sterilized, theyt already used to do that. Up until even the 80s in some state mental hospitals. Even though it was deemed unconstitutional like a decade earlier. It's still done in some countries. ANd easily abused. Hell, they used to sterilize all kids a person had starting with the second born if two kids had anything from any form of autism to treatable "mental disorders" of ANY kind. it's fucking barbaric.

RoyalTheKitten

8 years, 8 months ago

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You're forgetting that in this setting, and reality quite nearly for that matter, sterilization isn't. Technology in this 'verse is far enough advanced that anyone desiring it could have vat grown replacement gonads in no time flat, and if they just want offspring without the 'nads, they can just as easily clone germ-line cells, I wager the only reason they do collection in these stories is storage is cheaper than manufacture.

When you have a world where the consequences of an action can be undone as easily as they were created, they aren't consequences any longer; they are options.

Chrontius

8 years, 8 months ago

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"	FawkesFenrium wrote:
	You're forgetting that in this setting, and reality quite nearly for that matter, sterilization *isn't*.

Isn't what? Permanent? "fucking barbaric"? Word of God, it's neither. In the real world, initial recovery can take as little as three days with negligible pain. One person I spoke with was castrated to treat severe, chronic pain caused by a botched vasectomy. Immediately after surgery when he woke up, he told his nurse he felt great - she told him he hadn't given him any pain meds yet. Most people who've had that surgery and are willing to admit to it have an easy time of it, unless there are complications. WebMD says…

"	WebMD wrote:
	Regular activities are usually resumed within 1 to 2 weeks. And a full recovery can be expected within 2 to 4 weeks.

Genetically engineered people heal faster, by design, so expect a full recovery after perhaps a week, and normal activity levels after maybe two days' rest.

"	FawkesFenrium wrote:
	Technology in this 'verse is far enough advanced that anyone desiring it could have vat grown replacement gonads in no time flat, and if they just want offspring without the 'nads, they can just as easily clone germ-line cells, I wager the only reason they do collection in these stories is storage is cheaper than manufacture.

Testicles, like kidneys, can be manufactured for transplant - and you can get sterile "blanks" that don't produce sperm, but have normal endocrine function off the rack (or rather, out of most hospitals' freezers). Gametes can be created without an organ from a cheek swab - hardly invasive - and are typically delivered in a couple weeks' time. With sacrificial testicles, large batches of manufactured semen can be created cheaply by using the entire supply of stem cells present in each organ simultaneously - this skips a lot of de-differentiation and re-differentiation steps with the swab method, and starting with a large population of stem cells, pints of semen can be manufactured in a matter of hours. Further, using the same technology used to manufacture organs, living testicles can be stored and continuously "milked" for a lifetime - this has become a popular way to donate sperm.

Storage has a cost that increases linearly with duration; manufacture of a batch of gametes has a moderate one-time cost. From a purely economically rational standpoint, if you plan on storing sperm or organs for a long period of time, it may be cheaper to discard them and have them cloned when you want to start a family.

"	FawkesFenrium wrote:
	When you have a world where the consequences of an action can be undone as easily as they were created, they aren't consequences any longer; they are options.

Demographically, most people castrated in the setting were done for birth control, and maintain normal hormone levels - depot implants, or modification of the adrenal glands are the usual methods. Second to that, it's people who had a prosthetic endocrine system put in. Just like using injectable steroids, this will destroy your testicles sooner or later, and can cause cancer. Some delay the removal until damage is evident, others have them removed at the same time as the implants are placed - either to spare them having to watch the long, slow shrink, or to have them cryopreserved so they can have kids in a decade's time.

RoyalTheKitten

8 years, 8 months ago

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I mean sterilization isn't sterilization. Sterilization today means you can't produce germ-line cells ever again. The tech is on the way in to make that an artifact of bigone days.

In the setting you have made, it's long past sterilization having any meaningful permanence. All you have to do to fix it is ask.

Chrontius

8 years, 8 months ago

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Yeah, this is mostly me trying to ask questions about futureshock and see what happens.

I, for one, enjoy the sensation of futureshock, but it's clearly not universal.

I need help understanding that kind of perspective if I'm going to write effective SF.

CeilYurei

8 years, 8 months ago

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If my mate is too fucking lazy to jsut where a condom and gets their genital chopped off then I'm gone and they can go live somewhere else being somebody else's living sex toy. Sterilization in this case is just fucking laziness.

RoyalTheKitten

8 years, 8 months ago

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I'd tend to agree with you that it's lazyness driven. It comes from having a culture where self gratification is more important than societal expectations.

I don't see castration that can be easily reversed as any different from abortion myself.

If a woman can choose to kill an unborn human, why can't a man choose to remove his reproductive system?

I personally wouldn't stay with a mate who did either for convenience, it means they don't care enough to handle the consequences together.

Chrontius

8 years, 8 months ago

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I enjoy playing Devil's advocate, and my old political discussions don't happen any more :(

"	I don't see castration that can be easily reversed as any different from abortion myself.

Excellent point.

"	I personally wouldn't stay with a mate who did either for convenience, it means they don't care enough to handle the consequences together.

And now the Devil's advocate starts. Long-acting reversible contraceptives are the current standard of care - for females. Males don't have an adequate standard of care, yet. If your mate got an IUD, would you feel the same way? Why or why not?

Chrontius

8 years, 8 months ago

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First, please decouple current eugenic practices from this - past and present ones were hardly data driven, and we didn't even understand the genetic mechanisms we tried to manipulate. Consider that crime in cities was epidemic - turns out it was mostly caused by the amount of aerosolized lead exposure causing brain damage in children creating criminals 23 years later as their brains matured wrong. Not genetic at all - environmental toxicity.

Likewise, there's no eugenic component (yet) in the dragon-fancy community. The drugs given and modifications are carried out in order to tune gene expression and phenotypes, akin to the way one TED talk describing MIT's "food computers". A better comparison is the rise of designer babies in the future, where traits and gene complexes are manipulated individually, rather than simply culling the "weak". In this case, rather than changing the genome's sequence (still in the science-fictional future, this is an involved undertaking) we're manipulating the genes' environments so as to trigger and block gene promoters to get what we want out of a genome.

Most people in the setting won't understand all of the technical side of that, but it represents the way the average person (amongst those who go in for personal biomodification) intuitively approaches these things.

CeilYurei

8 years, 8 months ago

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Sterilization is fucvking wrong and if my mate came home neutered they can go find someplace else to fucking live.

Chrontius

8 years, 8 months ago

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Fair enough.

Just wanted to make clear that eugenics isn't a fair characterization of what's going on here, and it's much … weirder.

CeilYurei

8 years, 7 months ago

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