Inkbunny

it was a spot on read and put a smile on my face. Im more then willing to talk with people about the pros and cons of there ideals and mine... but these idots dont talk.. they light a torch and cry out character assaults. it is EXACTLY as you stated. it's far more importent they let you know how horrible you are! thats ALL that matters. they cant lift there own ideals UP so instead then have to push everybody who disagress into the mud lol.

BlueonBlack

6 years, 11 months ago

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So, no judgement, but what I take from your opinions expressed so far, is that you're not necessarily Anti-Left (or even Anti-Right for that matter), so much as you are Anti-Extremism? Is that accurate?

The shitstorm has obscured the real point of the matter, I feel. Not that the cartoon or it's subject matter are bad or good, but that the Left has it's share of extremist whackjobs just like everyone else?

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

@ BlueonBlack

i dont assume to speak for Roary but so far, he's not really been anti left at all... just vocally against the outrageously nutso identity politics and mud slinging tactics elements of the left have been partaking in.

BlueonBlack

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

I actually agree, he's been staunch in his opinions, but aside from the strawman in the cartoon, he's not acted Anti to much of anything (save for stupidity and as I said, extremism). I was all ready to jump in and try to defend... something, I don't even know really, but extremism on either 'side' (I mean come on, the two party system is just as much an idiotic construct as these extreme echo chambers and ridiculous safe spaces) is bad. Whether it's KKK members burning crosses and religious nutto's shooting up churches and abortion clinics, or even the more recent fuckwad who shot up a goddamn Baseball game because of his distaste for the government, that kind of jumping to extremes is seriously Fucked Up(tm).

Hope roarz replies too.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ BlueonBlack

Yes, I'm anti extremism. I'm mostly on the left and always have been, but now I think conservatives need to pull things back a bit and stop this extreme left socialist shit.

BlueonBlack

6 years, 11 months ago

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See, I forget you're from the UK lol.

You say conservatives here in the US, and people think you're talking Right Wing, Tea Party, Donald Trump and his cronies kinda thing.

See, I'm glad to know that you're thinking leftwise even while putting out that comic.  Parody from within is (usually, supposed to be) aimed at changing something that is weakening an idea, while parody (or not parody as the case may be) from without can be used and construed as hateful and fuel for muckraking. While your comic stirred up a lot of shit, I actually applaud you for putting it out there and leaving it up.  Someone who wasn't as confident in their beliefs would have folded under the weight of all the sheer hate you got.

Now, the truth of the matter is that Yes, okay, shit these leftist yo-yo types are on about are ACTUAL problems (well, some of it anyway), but blindly accepting one ideology, or ANY ideology, as correct is sheer buttfucking madness.  No point of view is perfect, no one solution exists, right? Disagreements will happen as long as there are 2 people left to argue over something.  I personally think that marginalized groups do need a bigger voice in the grand scheme of things. However, younger members and allies of said groups need to realize that to be taken seriously with that bigger voice means accepting the consequences of having their opinions made public.  If those opinions are exclusionary or are trying to give preferential treatment to those expressing them, then they better goddamn well be prepared to explain, LOGICALLY, why that is.   So far, all this extreme point of view being preached has done is cause a lot of useless fingerpointing, and given rise to MORE extremism.  Which of course helps no one.

I had a point I was trying to make.  I think it was, simply put, that I agree with extremism being bad, I'm impressed that you have a good head on your shoulders (especially since you're so vocal about your opinions), and I'm sorry that people who should be agreeing with your point are instead attacking you for trying to make it.

Lemme know though if I've made any incorrect assumptions or somehow missed any point entirely, this is all subjective after all.

Rhuke

6 years, 11 months ago

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Sorry to interject, but if they did that, that would add fuel to the lefts fire. You mentioned that once they do something its ok but when others do it it all of a sudden becomes an issue. I feel like conservatives showing even an ounce of backbone for once would be more of a rallying call to the other extremists than anything, vindication of their ridiculous beliefs. Look what happened to the democrat professor who said, "why should whites have to leave campus?" The guy was crucified on the alter of social justice and fired. And he was a democrat! The sad truth is I dont think it will get better even if the right stands up for itself and everyone else. It'll just cause more strife than relief for anyone.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ Rhuke

I'd say that's a defeatist mentality. The only options are resistance or capitulation and capitulation is the cowards option. One counters extremism with rationality, argument and firm opposition for as long as there's speech. If extremists get violent, you resist with violence and stop them. All university staff have to do is make sure their campus police are free to uphold the law, expel anyone making threats or causing damage or obstructing free speech and make it known such behaviour is unacceptable. Only problem is doing this requires a spine and if you're a spineless dean, like at Evergreen, the dickheads win.

Rhuke

6 years, 11 months ago

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There are differing kinds if opposition though. I refuse to engage in roundabout arguments where I'd be wasting breath only to be castigated and insulted simply because I disagree. I do however agree with you, spinr is what is required becaise spine has long since left academia, even in lower academia. Its spoon fed to us from kindergarten, we are all special in our own special way. We deserve participation trophies because hey, we tried our best. I went to a school in the more... Unsavory area, and the teachers never once stood their ground. I realize in a situation ehere the entire student body becomes an army against you such things are untenable, but to kowtow to the whims and wishes of small groups, thats just sickening. It shows a complete lack of self esteem. I also agree that violence must be met with violence, but not with anger.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ Rhuke

Yeah, my anger is strictly verbal, violence should be defensive.

moyomongoose

6 years, 11 months ago

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Unless I am mistaken, Vladimir Lenin's Soviet Union and Mao Zedong's communist China made use of students from the universities to help overthrow those countries as they were formally known.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ moyomongoose

Yes, it always comes from the intellectuals, then to students, then it infects everything else. People just think if they were in charge it'd go right instead of ending up in genocide and economic collapse.

moyomongoose

6 years, 11 months ago

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Plus a way of life with no freedom or liberties of any kind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8m0YZV-Vgk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQPuuaxDo1A

ZampaPaws

6 years, 11 months ago

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I really don't give a flying fuck about politics, so I dismissed the photo after reading it.
But if furries were IRL, I feel like the majority of them would partake.

BullseyeBronco

6 years, 11 months ago

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It's sad when people can't converse and have to drown other's opinions out by trying to belittle them as a human being...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_74ZS5i260

Here's one what I like... It's defending conservatism, yes, but it brings up a good point of echo chambers and the protection of freedom of speech.

AquariusOtt

6 years, 11 months ago

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I think what more people on the internet need to realize is that shitstorms fuel those who feast on people's reactions, like me and likely dozens of your other followers. We support freedom of speech and thought, but if you can't handle others for having different views from you (this is especially a pandemic in more liberal college campuses in the US) to the point it's a movement, you want to see them fall and crash like a meteor.

Politics has become entertainment now.

greenmont

6 years, 11 months ago

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Can't defend them because it's a straw man to begin with, and you admitted as much. We've had productive discussions (and non productive ones) about these topics before, but if the subject is someone who believes "cis hetero white males" are the problem, there isn't any defense that's worthwhile or possible. That's a stupid, prejudiced thing to think.

As far as arguments in favor of "identity politics" there are numerous but we'd have to first agree on what identity politics means. People with similar backgrounds can share experiences and knowledge and support each other, and people without those experiences won't understand it. That's true for everyone from coworkers to furries to gays to trans people. Beyond that, the absolute fact that people with similar backgrounds will ALWAYS bond over those backgrounds (and people with dissimilar backgrounds won't), I'm not sure what else qualifies as "identity politics" in my mind. I don't think it's anything like "all black people are to behave as a hive mind" as much as "black people are much more likely to share some set of experiences" which is true, I think, and is true for most any group of people.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ greenmont

I linked to specific things that real people are doing. Not straw men. The character in the cartoon is a representation of real life. Nobody defended their actions but they sure as shit had a go at my attitude haha. People are happy to overlook injustice and shitty conduct if they're ideologically blind and their side is doing it. From loving antifa to loving the KKK. Call a spade a spade I say. And I don't think white people have shared experiences is common by being white or black by being black, I think we all have a shared experience in our societies in that we continually are being called upon to give a toss about race when it ought to be irrelevant.

greenmont

6 years, 11 months ago

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It ought to be irrelevant , I agree with you there. I think people have shared experiences based on who they live around and where, and communities are often racially homogeneous for blacks and whites, so even though it certainly isn't because of their genetics, those experiences end up tied to race anyway for a lot of folks

(I didn't mean the argument was a straw man as much as that cartoon character was, exaggerated to be sure. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I may think the examples are not representative but regardless of my feelings on that they're not made up or particularly exaggerated. I can't defend those behaviors, but I will defend ones that are unfairly (IMO) lumped together with them.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ greenmont

One thing I observed in the responses to the cartoon was that nobody actually even condemned the students behaviour when they thought I was being a huge dick, haha. Couldn't bring themselves to do it. Its honestly unbelievable that my shit drawing and rant is deserving of ire but the students? Nada. Funny that, innit? Not saying that has anything to do you with you because it doesn't but fucking hell standards have dropped.

greenmont

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

oops wrong reply

AvogadroToast

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

You said 'I can't unstupid you' to me when we were having discourse about the issues. That's not very 'peace and love'.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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I did yeah, considering your determination to catch me out in saying I think all lefty students are bastards. If you say "I'm confused" over and over I don't believe you are, I believe you're being disingenuous. So I called your bluff and insulted you. If you're going to be a sly and slippery bastard don't be surprised you get insulted for it.

AvogadroToast

6 years, 11 months ago

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You did say that. And I called you out on it. Who's being slippery?

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

Slippery means evasive. I haven't evaded anything, I've been up front, clear and blunt. Unlike you. Nice try! You need to misrepresent your opponent in an argument because you can't argue for shit. You can't defend your own side, so you worm your way around trying to make out I'm a dick. You won't reveal your own beliefs so nobody has anything to come at you with. I've seen it a thousand times and the funniest thing about it is you probably think its clever.

AvogadroToast

6 years, 11 months ago

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You're being a real dick.

I tried to help you out by pointing out that your rhetoric was casting too wide a net. You were complaining about the nutters in the video but addressing liberals under thirty and talking to them as if all liberals under thirty are the nutters. It's a stupid thing to do.

But instead of discussing it, you want to go insulting me because you don't understand.

I really do apologize if I came across as disingenuous when I said I was confused by what looked to me like a contradiction. I certainly didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

No I linked to examples of what I was referring to and you tried to make out I was painting a broad group of people as being like the examples. That's what happened. You said nothing about the point I made, nothing about whether I was right or not to take issue with the behaviour I was describing, you went right to try and imply I was being judgemental towards everybody on the left. You're a snake and I'm a dick to snakes. In the rant following the cartoon I said "dear under-30s leftists" which is only referring to all young leftists IF you take it out of the wider context. It was convenient and easy to do that and that was AFTER I explicitly told you I wasn't referring to such a broad group in the image. Of course you came across as a prick because I give people the benefit of the doubt that they aren't stupid. If you're not stupid you did it on purpose. If you want civility, earn it. Trying to help me, Christ have some dignity without lying.

AvogadroToast

6 years, 11 months ago

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Well, I really apologize for upsetting you. It sincerely wasn't my intention. When I realized that you weren't intending to paint with so broad a brush, I tried to show you how I got that impression. I thought it might be helpful. But if you don't believe me, that's okay too.
I think your arguments would have more impact if they weren't coupled with insults. Calling people stupid may feel good, but it makes your position seem weaker than it is. And it doesn't reflect peace and love at all. I wish that more people treated others with respect and dignity, even when they say things you don't agree with or don't understand. You said above in the body of the journal that it makes you sad that people so often go straight for an opponents character rather than addressing their arguments or concerns. That makes me sad, too. That's common ground that we share!
I think it would be nice if we could both show each other respect and dignity by apologizing for being rude and agreeing to put it behind us. I'm sorry that I was rude when I said that I was confused. And I'm sorry that I said you were being a dick for calling me stupid. That was uncalled for and I should know better than that.
What about you?

GrumbyBunny

6 years, 11 months ago

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For what it's worth (and I know that isn't much), I kind of have to agree with Sylvester here. I think you might have better luck getting people to actually discuss the things you're bringing up if you were less hostile in your approach. You may not mean to, but when you lead with such an insulting, broad caricature, you are kind of casting a wide net at the start. Just because you release the fish you didn't mean to catch later on isn't going to stop a lot of those metaphorical fish from being angry at having been metaphorically netted in the first place.

People get defensive when they feel attacked (and, in this contentious political climate, it's easy to feel attacked), and that makes them want to shut themselves off from anything else you say after that, including contextual clarification. That may not be rational or fair, but human nature is what it is, and it can take a lot of effort to rise above. If you really want to inspire rational discussion (as opposed to shitstorms of outrage), I think it's worth taking that into account.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

People get defensive when they're attacked. Like I do when I am. It's perfectly reasonable for people to be angry enough with me over a cartoon that isn't aimed at them to send me a stream of verbal abuse. It's not reasonable at all for me to treat those people who are directly fucking with me with hostility. I'm simply trying to point out that you're using double standards because you don't like my tone. My response is I don't care what your opinion of my tone is and I'm not going to be nice to people who feel they have the right to fuck with me for my opinion.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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Well considering you've offered an apology without me asking for one (or wanting or expecting one, haha), it would only be right for me to do the same. I apologise for insulting you. Now, I just want to put this basically and bluntly, I know the disadvantages of my methods of communication. I've been told them by several people in response to my cartoon even if I hadn't already known them. Each of those people have told me the same thing several times. Believe me, I get it. Here's the thing: I speak and communicate the way I want to, not the way others want me to. IRL, in everyday interactions, I'm a nice guy and I'm extremely polite. But when I want to do something for myself, like a cartoon or a rant, I'll say what I've got to say in the way I want to say it.

Because I know what people are like I anticipate and expect people to be offended and angry with me. I expect people to go after my character rather than debate my points, I expect people to try everything they can to fuck with me, from trolling to guilt. And it happens. The more people going after you at any one time, the more defensive your attitude will be. If your feathers can be ruffled by one guy, like me, being a cunt to you, imagine a few dozen doing it at the same time, haha. I'm defensive and unfriendly because I face unfriendly people and I'm not going to be nice to bastards.

Icestorm

6 years, 11 months ago

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I guess he thinks you are so stupid , its not worth him wasting the time to "educate" you. That or he wants to tickle fight you.

ah furry drama they go hand and hand :) I remember the old fchan days before they started banning everyone. sign..

Back then the resident conservative that liked to argue with everyone was jay naylor and cigar skunk. heh how times have changed :) I should look those guys up.

Henkou

6 years, 11 months ago

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"People who buy into identity politics talk about having a voice but having a voice means standing up by yourself, for yourself, to speak your mind. It doesn't mean thinking as a group, it doesn't mean pretending that all people in whatever group you place them in think as a homogeneous entity. Thinking black people all share the same concerns and have the same political views is racist. Thinking whites do is racist. Thinking men or women do is sexist. People are not your political tools or pets, your allies in a political war."

>>This here, this is music to my ears.
We should make it a banner for as many sites as possible.
*sighs*

GrumbyBunny

6 years, 11 months ago

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Okay, here's my official, hopefully only "soapbox" moment for a long while. I hate getting involved in political discussions on the internet, but I hate not speaking up when I think something is important even more. Get ready for a wall o' text, because I'm shit at keeping these things concise.

No, I'm not going to spend a lot of time here commenting on the actions of these students you've pointed out. Mainly because I, too, think that violence and hostage-taking aren't acceptable ways to protest, so no argument there. No sense in preaching to the choir. Instead, I'm going to go the way most people in these comments probably have and address the way you're saying things. Before you roll your eyes so hard you snap an optic nerve, I really do think that it's important, and, if you choose to continue reading after this point, I'll explain why.

Clear communication is important to any effective discussion, and clear communication is, I think, massively facilitated by wording your ideas in a way that the person you're communicating with can't easily misinterpret. Words like "liberal" and "feminism," for instance, mean different things to different people. Maybe you use those words to describe genuinely shitty people, but to some people, they refer to much more sensible and level-headed ideas. "Feminist" can refer to anything from a literal, goose-stepping "feminazi" to someone who simply believes that gender equality would be just swell, depending on who you talk to. So, when you say things like, "Feminism is pleural mesothelioma," whether you intend to or not, you're firing a wide shotgun blast at a whole range of people, many (if not most) of whom you would probably agree with. For sensible people who consider themselves sensibly feminist to take offense to that isn't simple-mindedness, they're just going by the definition of the word they're familiar with because they can't reach into your mind and see how you define it. If "blarg" means "pie" to me, and "shit" to you, and I tell you I've got a nice, warm, freshly made blarg you can eat, are you going to ask for a hot, steamy one, or flip me off and call me an asshole?

You can clarify what you meant after the fact all you want, but once people are on the defensive, the natural human tendency is to wall themselves off from anything you say after that. It may not be right or fair, but it is what it is. I try not to, but I've caught myself doing it on occasion, and I guaran-goddamn-tee you have, too. You're only human, and so is everyone else. We're only working with the brains nature gave us, and, unfortunately, those brains come pre-loaded with a full suite of cognitive biases adapted to convince us that we and the people we identify with are the sensible, right ones, and anyone who disagrees with us only does so out of stupidity, evilness, selfishness, laziness, spinelessness, lochnessness, or other petty, insignificant reasons.

(goddamn character limit... post continued below, I guess)

GrumbyBunny

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

So fuck anyone who gives in to that primitive way of thinking, right? That's a tempting attitude to take. It's an attitude I've taken in the past, I'm embarrassed to say (god.. thinking back on some of the things I said back then, I wouldn't have taken me seriously, either). But, like I said, all humans -- including you (unless you're an alien or an actual, particularly clever raccoon, or something.. in which case, forget I said anything) -- have these flawed brains that are naturally configured more for survival in a hunter-gatherer-type social group than for stoically working out the truth in all things. I just think that's something that's very important to take into account if you're really trying to persuade anyone of anything (and if you're not, you're just venting.. which is fine, but it's not likely to lead to anything more than people venting right back at you).

Frankly, you kind of come off like a raging pundit in these political posts, and politically savvy people don't exactly hang on to Glenn Beck's every word. I can't speak for anyone else, but to me, your political posts and reaction to the reaction of said posts kind of feels like someone kicking a dog in the balls and, when he turns and snaps at them, holding that up as proof that dogs are just violently agressive. My suggestion -- take it or leave it -- if you really want people to consider what you have to say, would be to try not to (intentionally or otherwise) kick broad groups of people in the balls (metaphorically speaking. Also, literally speaking, though that's really hard to do over the internet). You don't have to approach an issue like a scared little kitten afraid to rock the, uh.. kitten boat, but there's a world of difference between kid gloves and spiked brass knuckles (or one of those sweet punch-gun-gloves like they used in Inglorious Basterds). Also -- again, just a suggestion -- maybe keep your comments mostly to the particular thing you're pointing out in that particular post. Post some links to things that illustrate your points of concern, make your comments about that particular concern, sure. But I don't think it's necessary or productive to then go on a long, fiery rant about "students" and "feminism" and "leftists" (all words that, again, don't necessarily mean the same thing to other people as they do to you, and can thus be easily misinterpreted). In fact, I think that clouds the absolute shit out of the important parts of your message and alienates a lot of people who would otherwise agree with you.

If you took the time to read this far, thank you for letting me make my case. I spent an admittedly unhealthy amount of time hashing out my thoughts on the subject and organizing them into a post that, I hope, conveys those thoughts in a way that is relatively clear and doesn't just make you want to reach through the internet and punch my stupid glasses off.

[EDIT: "Raccoon" has TWO C's in it, damnit. Get it together, me]

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 11 months ago by Owner

I don't care. You've read enough of my responses to people so far to form an opinion so you'll know and even acknowledge from the start that I don't care about people criticising my tone. Why would you think writing me an essay on the subject would change my mind? Also, you have nothing to teach me about communication, I'm very good at it thank you. I'm very good at getting people talking when I want to get people talking. But I'm not trying to build bridges I'm trying to draw cartoons that say what I want to say and how I ACTUALLY FEEL. I used to be head admin of a forum with over 10,000 members and I did it for 10 years, I can manage a community of people online and you're trying to give me advice. Fuck ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooff.

GrumbyBunny

6 years, 11 months ago

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> Why would you think writing me an essay on the subject would change my mind?

I thought it was worth a shot. You seem to be saying that you want people to discuss these things rationally (which, I agree, would be the fucking best), but you come at it like you're trying to provoke people into doubling-down on their own stances and get all foamy at the mouth just so you can say to your like-minded friends, "heh, look at this asshole, right?" and feel like the enlightened, superior one. If that's what you're really trying to do, then mission accomplished. Enjoy the sense of validation that gives you.

I write "essays" on the rare occasions I get into this stuff because I want to do the best I can to make sure my statements can be understood for what I truly mean them to be, in the proper context and all that fruity shit. I suppose I am trying to build bridges, but that's only because I think that's what the current political climate desperately needs. Hostility begets hostility, and people usually respond to that by getting hostile themselves, before retreating further into their own echo chambers where they don't feel like they're being attacked all the time. I think that has a lot to do with why people don't seem to be able to intelligently discuss political things these days. And I don't think it's going to lead to anything good. I also don't think that's ever going to change until people learn to chill the fuck out.

Communicate your thoughts however you want in the posts you make. I wouldn't think to challenge your right to do that, by any means. I tried to use the voice I have to communicate my thoughts to you in a rational, civilized way, as I thought you were suggesting, and you told me to fuck off. That's fine. Not, in my view, any different than when the kinds of people you rail against do it to you, but fine. It is what it is. As long as you know that few minds have ever been changed because someone on the internet laid a sick burn on them.

RoareyRaccoon

6 years, 11 months ago

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