Inkbunny

Maybe I'm imagining things (lol irony again), but this sounds just a tad passive-aggressive.
As an explanation of something I said earlier, there is a video on YouTube called "Heroism part 1" that may be of interest.

elix

13 years, 7 months ago

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It is possible to enjoy cub art and have no desires for real kids at all. Your implication completely disregards this and assumes an automatic correlation. Dr. Kinsey would backhand you into next Monday. You are proposing the same slippery slope that means liking furry zoo porn (i.e., drawings) automatically means someone wants to rape dogs, or that being a BDSM fetishist means you want to deprive people of their human rights by putting them in a dungeon in bondage gear and whatnot without their consent. There simply is no logical basis for such a correlation, and anyone who tries to claim there is should be closely examined for hidden moral intentions or biases.

KrofGninut

13 years, 7 months ago

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Overt aggression. Why so serious?
My only point is that sometimes things aren't quite what they seem, or to rebuke what Freud said: sometimes a cigar is not just a cigar (regarding his opinion on his own dreams). That we are in fact the sum of our past experiences, and that ignoring that fact is dangerous to your mental cohesion. Fetishes are particularly revealing when it comes to self-knowledge; it always comes from somewhere, and looking into that can be painful (it's always a reflection of something going on beyond conscious awareness). I know this because I looked quite desperately for anything that could save my liking for cub (and not quite so anthropomorphic things, I guess). Which is why that one article was so compelling to me; accounts of abusive abuse are a dime a dozen, but that was one where the pedophile did everything right, and still did harm.
So yes, I do completely understand your resistance to this notion, and your need to straw man my words (I never once suggested that enjoying cub would lead to actual rape). I guess what I am suggesting in an oblique way is, in the words of Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living." So quite naturally, I would be opposed to things that pose a hindrance to that, the same way I would oppose any other method of self-medicating one's inner demons (such as drug use).

But I might be being a bit passive aggressive myself, so I apologize for that.

elix

13 years, 7 months ago

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You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but spouting logical fallacies while dancing around a point without actually making it, especially on such a charged subject as this, is going to earn a response. Until you actually elucidated your point (which is what I think this most recent comment is), I didn't actually know precisely what your argument was, but it looked like you were steering towards that slippery slope.

I'd like to suggest that you read Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children From Sex, by Judith Levine. Lab-condition testing of childhood sexual response (and its consequences) is obviously quite unethical, but Levine tackles a few related subjects on these matters in a rational way and from case studies and other primary sources when possible. (A sign of how badly the book was needed was that moral guardians were trying to have her book banned before it was even published, even after admiting they'd never read it.) Levine is also the former Surgeon General under Clinton that was removed from office by major pressure from said moral guardians after she publically suggested that masturbation would not be a harmful activity to adolescents. (And then, after Clinton, America got Bush and abstinence-only education.)

I should point out that Harmful only mentions pedophiles in one chapter (while it was assumed prior to publication by the opposition that it was all about pedophiles). Freud was also very wrong about so many things, so I don't give his words a lot of weight.

I obviously won't share them here due to privacy and confidence issues, but I have direct first-hand anecdotes from several people that I know that they were "abused" sexually as children (in varying conditions), and they're generally well within normal tolerances for happy, functioning adults. If you're looking for real-world anecdotal evidence (since lab tests are unethical) to support that real-world childhood sexual contact can be positive (can you see why I pointed out the slippery slope argument? Because this is a prime talking point for detractors/trolls), you're going to have to dig deep, and you'll come up with a lot fewer data points, since this conflicts with society's dominant and overriding narrative that child sexuality is taboo and 100% deviant and to say otherwise means you want to harm children.

Despite moral conservative America's best attempts, the evidence is well in abundance that sex play and sexual exploration amongst children is a normative thing around the world, and it's something that appears in almost every culture (to varying degrees of social acceptance, mind).

KrofGninut

13 years, 7 months ago

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Hehehe...maybe I do have a problem with being obtuse, but I think we disagree a lot less than you think.
The reference to Freud was in reference to his attitude that he was immune to the things he diagnosed in others. And I do completely accept the healthiness of a child's independent sexual exploration.

My point (which you seem to understand after I finally got around to saying it) has really very little to do with cub.
I suppose a parallel example might help: the most typical parellel is the comic book geek or the sci-fi guy. Or someone who is way too into action movies. Heroic fiction is used to...relieve one's need to be heroic in their own lives.

Similarly, since an interest in cub is an abberation from a biological imperative (I don't mean that in a mean way; it's just true), to indulge in it, I believe, is to keep yourself from seeking it's psychological roots.

Another example that is actually my own experience was when I asked the violent part of myself if it would give up it's violence, and to my suprise it gave an answer: "Are you willing to give up fictional violence too?" Meaning that to give up my inner violence, I would also lose my enjoyment of fake violence such as video games.
That last one I'm still working on; the road to self-improvement is a tough one.

TayFerret

13 years, 6 months ago

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Care to explain how you've discovered this alleged dark, mysterious secret about every single person who likes cubs?

Roketsune

13 years, 6 months ago

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Edited 13 years, 6 months ago by Owner

Normally I wouldn't go and launch shells at someone's page, but this journal and your recent behavior pretty much compels me to. I have never seen such glaringly and obvious self-contradictory behavior in my life. And your reasoning is strange. Mental cohesion and something about lack of growth or whatever it was you said on KT's submission? I've been whacking it to RL and IC fantasies of kids and cubs for years, and I have matured enormously in the last couple of years. My 'cohesion' is just fine. Your logic is disprovable and laughable.

Now, as for the whole faving of cub porn recently... It's obvious you have insufficient self-control. You can try harder and maybe you can stop faving or looking at it, but there are two other options. You can just realize this is moronic and just indulge harmless fantasies and desires, or you could seek treatment, if this bothers you so much. There should be therapists and doctors who will be willing to try some sort of therapy, though it's not that effective from what I've heard. My suggestion is to just listen to me and stop fretting over this, but if you continue to want to be a flagrantly hypocritical fool, go right ahead.

KrofGninut

13 years, 6 months ago

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Hehe, now don't you think that's just a bit on the aggressive side? The verbiage of wounding is in turn pretty obvious; you came for flames, rather than out of any desire to correct or understand.
In short, insulting people is not a good way to persuade them, which leads me to believe you are not here to persuade me. If you want to critique my argument, then let's argue the argument without going into personal attacks.
(actaully, you might want to use my email for a quicker response: Ejoyt_silk@yahoo.com)

Roketsune

13 years, 6 months ago

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Oh, you think that's aggressive? That's nothing. I actually went easy on you. If you want, I can demonstrate how bad I can get with someone I perceive to be far beneath me. I announced to a whole group therapy meeting the other day I was an unashamed pedophile, partially because it would be amusing. Lambasting you is nothing compared to that. For right now, a middle approach will suffice, I think. As for persuading you... I gave you reasonable options. If you don't want to listen to them, fine, I don't really care.

Now, as I said, you can pull your head out of your ass and realize talking like this while faving cub porn is quite self-contradictory and stupid. Also, your reasoning and arguments are confusing and don't make any sense, even disregarding the ridiculousness of you faving cub porn while going on about the immorality of it. Actually, I don't really even care to hear your arguments and reasoning now. You make me want to keep shelling you. Actually, forget the middle approach. Your words and your actions together are mindblowingly stupid, and I cannot have a civil debate with someone as completely delusional and stupid as you. How can I debate you when you do this? I don't even care to. I just want to insult you at this point. Gah.

KrofGninut

13 years, 6 months ago

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Hehehe, yes, you are here only for flames. Either that, or you seriously need to relax. Breeeeathe.
You calm now? I'm going to assume for a while that you are not here as a troll, and that you are not completely morally corrupt; don't abuse that.

Now, if you want to debate the topic (and have your questions answered, such as why I have certain things in my favorates), I did offer my email address (because I do not frequent inkbunny much anymore). Send me an email (calmly, to retain your faculties), and I will explain what I'm talking about (or give a reason here why don't want to).

Furthermore, there are numerous things you have posted that could be symptoms of things you might want to have looked at. Such as your aggressive tendancies; if you say "Oh, you think that's aggressive? That's nothing. I actually went easy on you. If you want, I can demonstrate how bad I can get with someone I perceive to be far beneath me.", that strongly suggests some kind of repressed rage, not to mention arrogance.
I understand that this rage is triggered by what you percieve I am saying, but I am here offering to explain what I'm talking about, and you merely sit there raging.

Roketsune

13 years, 6 months ago

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Hah, I don't do that breathing crap. Anyway, I didn't really intend to come here as a troll at first, but your response told me you were no longer worthy of any restraint or respect, and I just decided to stop trying. I don't know what reason you could provide for faving cub porn that could possibly make sense, and I assume it'd make as much sense as your stupid argument before I jumped in. If you really need to send privately your motivations rather than make that public, maybe your reasoning is flawed. You can PM me if you really have to tell me, but I can assure you my response will not be pleasant. To give you an idea of how badly you have performed, you're merely telling people pedophilia and cub porn is bad, while I have another person who's more anti-pedo and even started an anti-pedo FA group. You I remorselessly disrespect and belittle, while him I treat with respect and like a worthy opponent.

Oh, and, for the record, yes, I'm quite arrogant. No, I was not in a state of rage when I posted that. You don't make me angry. You make me contemptuous. And, I'm FAR from morally corrupt. I focus more on morality than virtually anyone else. I jerk off to fantasies of pubescent cubs and humans all the time and I feel morally superior to most people. That does not make me immoral. Saying there's a moral aspect to cub porn is moronic.

Roketsune

13 years, 6 months ago

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Oh, and, as if you haven't embarrassed yourself enough already, your response to my friend is just wrong. I am not him. Remember the cub lover whose submission you commented on? He's not me. Moron.

KrofGninut

13 years, 6 months ago

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Giving you the benifit of the doubt that you are not his alt account, I bid you good day. This case of mistaken identity has put me in a bad mood, and frankly, since you declined my offer (assuming you are not his troll account), I don't think you are interested in debating anyway.

You should nonetheless have that aggression thing looked at; only fools fancy themselves immune to the distortion of the mind.

KrofGninut

13 years, 6 months ago

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...in fact, it would help to KNOW what the argument is before running off of a knee-jerk reaction.

KrofGninut

13 years, 6 months ago

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Actually, there is something I should apologize for; although my mistakes are myriad, one of the major ones here is being very, very cryptic. Nonetheless, you have a choice here: you can figure out what I'm actually talking about (believe it or not, it has very little to do with pedophilia), or you can walk away with the self-rightous feel-good of lashing out at what you perceive as a moral hypocrite.

I also apologize for the snarkiness; your presumption makes my blood rush, but I nonetheless welcome civil debate (and do feel free to point out any aggression on my part, as I would for you).

elix

13 years, 6 months ago

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"	Nonetheless, you have a choice here: you can figure out what I'm actually talking about (believe it or not, it has very little to do with pedophilia), or you can walk away with the self-rightous feel-good of lashing out at what you perceive as a moral hypocrite.

Might I suggest that you explain, in clear words, exactly what it is that you ARE talking about? I still haven't figured it out. I just stopped replying because it wasn't worth my time.

KrofGninut

13 years, 2 months ago

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