Inkbunny

Yeah... sadly, the admins are pro AI art, so I don't see this turning around. I do believe that other art sites ban AI art, so it might be time to start thinking of migrating

I don't get it though... I'd be pissed if my server costs doubled because of a steady influx of slop hitting my site

Telain

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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We're definitely not all pro AI, though it's slightly funny seeing this sentiment after we new mods were brought on and immediately panicked the AI community while we caught up on old reports.

I think the intent is trying to find some balance between respecting artists work and a new technology others can be use to be creative themselves. And we do test some AI generations, as users are permitted to do and share in their reports (though we do repeat the tests submitted by users to prevent abuse, it helps indicate it is necessary).

As for the character similarity, Dainen does give some reasoning for picking the features they did. No one would be saying anything if it were just another Eevee. Patamon just aren't very common. But I'm making no determination on the report.

Breetails

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Idea: How about making a new Inkbunny for AI artists called AI bunny? I'm sure if you guys asked the AI community they could all come together and make this happen. Everyone wins. Artists stay here, and AI artists can go to AI bunny. Win win.

Telain

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

Who wants to manage hosting and development for that? Honestly, just block the keyword and report people not using it properly. I wish I could still block it, because I've gotten tired of AI art, but I have to be able to see it to moderate it.

I just joined the team and had no part is developing the ai policy, but I do think it's mostly an okay compromise between competing interests.

Breetails

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Oh okay. Gotcha, Feel free to use my idea though in the future if you guys change your mind ^^

Tai

2 weeks ago

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I think take a look at subscribestar's method, it's all hosted on the same space, however one of the domain names has adult content while the other one does not. Sub AI for adult content in the context.

So if https://ai.inkbunny.net is where you go (example, not an actual site), you can see the submissions with ai in it (and cannot see other submissions), it shouldn't be too hard.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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@ Tai

You basically make the search page take a parameter, and service it in one of two ways
* blacklist AI tags
* require AI tags

But the devil is in the details. It might be significant development if the site's framework or coding decisions creates a lot of churn to take in a parameter like that, and then there's the added moderation that is required to ensure that these modalities are being enforced properly.

I think it would be a medium effort at worst unless the code base is really fucked

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Or it could just be laziness. If they wanted AI to be allowed, why not make that sub AI in the first place?

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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Especially since its so new and experimental. It really should have been in its own sub domain to test the waters of it being included in the whole site first, instead of just letting it take over.

Everyone just goes "just block the keywords tho!"

That's what I do, but I know people would rather not, or aren't aware that you can

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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And it's more of the principle of AI rather than seeing or not seeing the submissions.

Telain

saying "Who wants to manage hosting and development for that?" is a clear sign of laziness and bias.

billmurray

1 week, 5 days ago

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Sometimes I just wish there was a toggle switch on every page to quickly filter it out. I wonder if there's motivation from anyone on staff to add filter groups @w@

Telain

1 week, 5 days ago

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I've thought about that, but "Accounts, Blocked Keywords" isn't that long. I feel like few users would make use of a toggle anyway (which would require a page reload as well, afaik). Definitely places our dev time need to be spent on first at the very least.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Forgive me for making a blanket statement about the IB staff, that was shortsighted of me. I appreciate that there's some of you who are against AI, as having both perspectives should help keep ideas fresh and such.

While he has his reasons though, Damien is aware that his OC looks like mine, so its just kind of scummy to me; but in the end if its not breaking any rules I can't really ask much.

Weiss

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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"There's no realistic way to enforce these rules. " Except the mods HAVE been enforcing those rules pretty severely too, to the point of them being accused of being tyrants. Heck, they hired new mods exactly so they could better enforce the rules

nickthemoonwolf

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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There's nothing stopping people from just lying about their prompts. That's not an enforceable rule.

Weiss

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Except there is. You think mods just read the prompts and do nothing about it? No, they take all the data you provide and generate stuff themselves. If the result is different, you get penalized and your submission is taken down instantly. Plus there's also image metadata that is easy to see provided it wasn't scrubbed clean but even if it was, the rule is very much enforceable.

PipTheOtter

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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While I generally prefer to lurk in darkness. I'd like to put some level of confidence out in the Æther that I have, in the past week spent around 20 hours taking care of reports to verify prompts were appropriately submitted, and models/loras/embeddings were not altered. I do download all of the loras, and models and work to verify that said loras have not been exclusively trained on an artists or oc. While none of us Mods are perfect, I will continue to give my due diligence <3

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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@ PipTheOtter

Doesn't mean the AI WON'T learn from pre existing images. NeoPatamonX has been around since the early 2000's. Actions speak louder than words and your whole Admin team's actions show that you are perfectly okay pandering to AI and OC Theft.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Yeah, I'm half tempted to leave IB, just from my interactions with the Admins via Support and them condoning OC theft.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I posted about leaving a little while ago and there were some people that were sad to hear that, so I decided to stay since I thought it was nice that they wanted me to stay... But yeah, this is kind of wild to me

ManaAraxis

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

I decided to stay as a lurker. No longer a creator on this site. Too much drama dealing with AI "artists" and Admins, let alone the stress and calliing me a hypocrit with my creations.

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

Here's how it works: if patamon art is rare. And if you have a lot of patamon tagged art out there with your OC. Then any lora that's designed to create a patamon character will have a lot of your OC in it.

I don't see Dainen as intentionally stealing from you at all: it's just an unfortunate fait accompli of how it works. And it doesn't help that both Dainen and you have a blonde hair OC. His OC has the same hairstyle than yours, and that's been the case since way before he ever made a patamon version of it. Add the patamon ears, the patamon lora, and boom, you've got very similar characters.

Dainen posts his OC as every fucking animal and mon under the sun and floods the site with it. It stands to reason that at some point, this particular combination would happen.

nickthemoonwolf

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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555-come-on-now.gif

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I know how it works, so you don't have to come at me with a condescending voice.

Damien replied to people in the posts that he's glad "his OC" resembles me, so he's aware of what I look like. Its not hard to take an AI generated image and change things about it via prompts. So I don't understand why he deliberately uploaded these results.

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

Your own anger is adding that tone to my voice. I'm trying to explain to defuse, not talk down.

The fact that he answered the flood of angry comments to say "Neo's character is a charming one; if anything, I'm happy for people seeing a resemblance between the two :3" " just proves that he's aware of you now that your audience has been sicked at him.

The picture looks like a patamon version of his OC.
The picture looks like your OC.

Both things can be true at the same time. He's under no obligation to change hair color or skin color, but you know what? I bet he 100% would have had he known it looked too much like you for your taste. He gains nothing by all this stirred up drama.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I'm more annoyed than angry, though you had no way of knowing what I understand about AI image generation so I'll apologize for my tone.

To be clear though, I didn't 'sick' anyone on anything, this was actually brought to my attention by close friends and I'm just giving my thoughts on the situation. I'm not particularly familiar with the way he treats his character, all I saw was a character with about 90% of my defining features and someone going "This is my OC!"

You also have to realize that I was having a peaceful night before I was presented with this, and I felt compelled to comment on what I think about it. I'm not sympathetic to AI art. I don't think its fair that just because a machine can generate something, its absolved of any scrutiny that a traditional artist would face for the same kind of work.

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

Believe me he'd be happy to go back to a peaceful day too. He's the most scrutinized and hated AI director on the site (because he's omnipresent on the frontpage) and really really doesn't want any extra negative attention. He knows perfectly well any misstep = immediate drama and reports, with all the risks that entails.

I've talked to him about it, and while he was afraid to take down the picture while it was the subject of drama (because that would appear like an admission of guilt), he said he'd have never posted it if he had known your OC was so close. I believe him because he's running his damn channel like a printing press: he doesn't need any one pic to go up or stay up, he's got hundreds more in the queue. I'm sure, if you'd like to ask him, since you're not a fan of AI, he could change the features of that pic to not look so close to your OC, or remove the post entirely (if you ask him directly and frankly) once the mods clear him of wrongdoing.

Breetails

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Wouldn't be surprised if your Dainen's alternate account.

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Oh man I put in a lot of effort in my gallery if I'm an alt account 😔

Rest assured, I won't accuse you in return to be anyone's alt account. Unlike you, Neo seems to be able to reason for himself, even though you've tried your best to muddy the waters.

Breetails

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Effort isn't uploading stories written in Chat GPT with AI thumbnails my friend.

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I don't use AI to write, and the AI "thumbnails" do take me about 4-6 hours to make. Come, visit my place, I welcome you to a world of high effort, highly fappable material. That's why we're here, right? Or did you think we were somewhere else. A place to write about things you hate when no one asked? I see the confusion. That place is, over there ╰┈➤🚪

ManaAraxis

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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You don't have to get butthurt defensive like all the other AI "artists" do when called out. You all have fragile egos and no skill or desire to put in effort to develop artistic skills.

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

Hmm... butthurt, defensive... fragile ego... 🤔🤔🤔 Wait, you're describing every single artist alive! Thanks! I'm finally one too!😭

ManaAraxis

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Knock it off. Acting like that makes you look like a moron.

Breetails

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I think i gained a chromosome reading that O.o

Danzabowo

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Can say they aren't Danien's alt, Danien is a chill guy, Racoon plays a(n almost) CEDH Kaalia deck in a casual gathering... :(

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

I feel doxxed 🤣

Danzabowo

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I mean, you probably are the only Racoon that plays Kaalia sooooo... oops. (:

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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No I play exclusively Bello now, you showed me how good that Racoon actually was. The Kaalia deck stays on the shelf until someone brings up some bullshit even worse than it.

Danzabowo

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Oh right, Racoon plays the Raccoon. All is right in the world. :D

GavinAlvarez

2 weeks ago

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Bro called him an AI "Director" like it takes any skill at all to type e621 prompts into Stable Diffusion. A lobotomized monkey could do it and get just as good results if you give it an afternoon, don't make it sound like AI slop makes you any kind of creative.

threeracoons

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

The term "AI Director" is what we have been taught to call ourselves, as saying "AI Artist" and "AI Creators" is demeaning to artists and creatives. That was the most neutral, least offensive word we could find.

But, if it makes you feel better, you can call us AI Thieves, AI Garbage people, AI Industrial Sludge Makers, AI Junkyard workers, AI Lobotomized Monkeys (good one!) anything you want. Just be careful not to be demeaning to these other professions too 😈

GavinAlvarez

2 weeks ago

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In the creative field you pretty much are the actual worst. Even aside from the blatant theft of others work (more often than not without the artist's permission or even knowledge) which is disqualifying enough as is, your lot is just utterly and completely bankrupt of human creativity.

And you have the gall, the *audacity* in fact, to host a gallery of your slop and call yourselves creatives when you have a machine do all the work for you because you can't be bothered to support real human artists or pick up a pen and actually learn the creative process yourself.

threeracoons

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

"	And you have the gall, the audacity in fact, to host a gallery of your slop

I know!!! And people love it, I'm going towards 4000 watchers! It's incredible, isn't it?🤣🤣🤣

Somewhere along the way, my morally bankrupt, no good lazy, sterile, unimaginative, uninspired, uninventive and, like you said, lobotomized brain must have found some way to string the right couple words together on that machine that does everything for me.

Enough that I have a thriving community, avidly following my ongoing series, asking me questions about how the story will develop, asking for requests, suggesting their own ideas, etc.

Surely, the amount of time it takes me to <opposite of create> all this work only seems like a 4-6 hours a day because I'm so inefficient at it.

GavinAlvarez

2 weeks ago

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Bro you throw slop at pigs and they eat it up like it's caviar, that's not the flex you think it is lmao

threeracoons

2 weeks ago

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Then you have nothing to worry about, right? We'll take the pigs, you can keep the refined, monocle wearing porn enjoyers.

GavinAlvarez

2 weeks ago

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Art isn't some hoity toity high society bullshit the artistic elite are gatekeeping you out of, it's an expression of humanity that you seem to think a machine can supplement and pander to the any gooner that'll give you the time of day. Much like yourself, AI is a *tool* at best. It's no better than throwing mcnuggets in a microwave and calling yourself a chef.

Even the most basic amateur beginner slapping together lines in MS Paint has more creativity in their left toenail than you have in the grey matter cluster in your skull you call a brain.

threeracoons

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll keep trying to change minds by putting as much energy and effort I can into my channel. I'm lucky enough to have, among my audience and my friends, a couple of superstar furry artists already. I'll probably never change your mind, but I'll keep trucking.

Breetails

1 week, 6 days ago

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GavinAlvarez wrote:

THANK YOU!

threeracoons

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

In the heat of this argument, it's easy for me to forget my manners. Let me, for a moment, back down from this constant escalation:

I don't actually believe I should be stealing any amount of audience from real artists, let alone replace them. I do actually have empathy for their plight, and I hate that my hobby is partially based on such a horrible pile of theft. I couldn't draw, but I needed some way to augment my stories as a writer, and that's when I got into it. Funnily enough, I don't use AI to write, and I don't like when people do so, and that makes me a hypocrite as well.

I wish artists were not affected by the rise of AI as much as they currently are. I am fully in agreement with Inkbunny rules when it comes to commissions and donations only being available to artists who are not using AI. I want ALL the money on this site to flow their direction, and their direction alone.

I pay real artists regularly. I've commissioned several pieces, I'm having one right now in fact. I'm also currently helping some artists with language barriers with writing prompts and dialog, etc. I did donate to the Bastion fund when that terrible thing happened.

And I deeply, deeply wish for real artists to all survive the rise of AI. I maintain the hope that it's a difficult phase that they will eventually adapt to, but I do realize with sadness there's a chance for a lot to be lost.

billmurray

1 week, 5 days ago

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Edited 1 week, 5 days ago by Owner

"	Bro you throw slop at pigs and they eat it up like it's caviar, that's not the flex you think it is lmao

I wish this wasn't how people saw the audience here. It feels like a bad attitude that won't get anywhere on other places when every artist on this site has experienced being on the shitty end of the stick due to various taboos associated with the style or subjects they draw. I feel like people can only afford to have such an attitude when they forget what being harassed for that with no support network feels like :\

GavinAlvarez

1 week, 5 days ago

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LMAO

"Waaaah, don't be mean you'll hurt the AI bro's feefees"

billmurray

1 week, 4 days ago

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Edited 1 week, 4 days ago by Owner

Maybe if you were also an artist, you would understand that this is literally the same audience consuming both types of content. You have the attitude of someone who believes any righteous artist can harvest a good audience anywhere, and that adversity is trivial if it isn't in your current focus. Please show some more understanding, this can only create more trouble in the long run for the people whose works you actually care about.

GavinAlvarez

1 week, 4 days ago

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My attitude is that I don't respect anyone that thinks a machine can supplement human creativity because they see the creative field as a popularity contest to amass a horde of squealing gooners and not do any of the hard work to actually learn/improve on a skill. Nor are they willing to support human creators because they refuse to see value in anyone beyond what makes them cum.

And you treating it with kid gloves is just emboldening further theft and exploitation of human creators who put (sometimes literally) blood, sweat, and tears into their art, writing, music, etc.

So I'd implore you to actually grow a fuckin' spine instead of groveling like a pathetic worm to spare the feelings of those happily exploiting your fellow creatives for the sake of making a number on a screen go up.

IRNoodles

1 week, 6 days ago

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imagine finding your self-worth in the amount of people you get to goon to bad art

threeracoons

1 week, 6 days ago

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Edited 1 week, 6 days ago by Owner

@ IRNoodles

Everyone who uploads anything here wants it to be watched and enjoyed, there's very little point doing so for any other reason.

Whether they do it for the money or for the dopamine hits derived from reactions and feedback, they're all after the same thing: attention, recognition. If you think the best artists here don't celebrate their subscriber/view counts you're just lying to yourself out of necessity. Nice work trying to equate that to "finding your self worth" though.

IRNoodles

1 week, 6 days ago

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If we're linking things that are irrelevant, here have this :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aE4zMgx5JU

Danzabowo

1 week, 6 days ago

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@ IRNoodles

Eyo hold on, we're linking music now? Let's get some weeb shit in this journal. :)

IRNoodles

1 week, 6 days ago

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oh this kinda slaps

Danzabowo

1 week, 6 days ago

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@ IRNoodles

Dang, gottem with the Teto! >:) I'll link 2 more that I always find myself going back to daily, then I'll see myself out. <3

Liar Dance
feel empty!

stickyfox

1 week ago

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Edited 1 week ago by Owner

I've been making art for half a century. I started using computers to make art in the 80s. I studied new media theory under some world-famous artists.

Generative AI is an art medium that didn't exist until about ten years ago. And fuck anybody who thinks I stopped knowing anything about art in 2020 because the tools got a lot better all of a sudden. Especially if they're the kind of person who says shit like "You are so stupid if i wanted to kill myself id climb to the number of chromosomes you have and jump to your IQ."

If we're going to force you to label yourself a director, then everyone in this thread who's riding you should call themselves "anime plagiarists" or "tracing experts."

It's always mid-/non-artists complaining about AI "terkin' our jerbs." I know how they feel, honestly. My first job was a calligrapher. I was really good at it. But I was just about as good as a laser printer, and nowhere near as fast or as cheap.

One big problem is if you use AI to copy a pokemon, you're really uncreative. Even "worse" than someone who creates original works using AI.

IB has a "Philosophy of Acceptance" which clearly isn't understood by many of its users.

Breetails

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Your getting pretty mad about this. No ones cursing at you man, Stop dropping Fbombs.

threeracoons

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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The F bomb was a friendly jab at Dainen, not anyone here. You've been trying to make this situation blow up more than Neopatamon. You, sir, have your own agenda.

nickthemoonwolf

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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and you don't?

KevinSnowpaw

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I must admit that's an uncanny resemblance... On the other hand your OC is a Blonde anthro patamon with short hair...I run into the same issue with Kevin and AI art generation you can absolutely make me without using ME in the prompts. Ran into this a lot with attempts to generate a Rabbit like Pirate Charicter for an up and coming dungeons and dragons game, which is what i primarily use AI art for. Character portraits and tokens for table-top role playing games.

IM a lop eared blue eyed white rabbit anthro with a red collar and a golden cat bell.. thats.. thats basicly Kevin!

I'm super faltered when somebody makes me gift art but they have also thus far been kind enough to say it's such!

I think this resemblance is unintentional...I'm leaving it up to the admins to worry about.

Have you reached at to Dainen? maybe it WAS intentional and he forgot to tag you? Maybe it was NOT and he would be willing to make alterations?

I like the render...I think it came out really cute! but then I like your character XD so...I hope this reaches an amicable resolution.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

I appreciate the kind words about Neo. He means a lot to me, especially as I've had so many great artists render him in their styles and I've forged a lot of friendships with people through him. His original reference sheet was by the late Paupe; these things matter to me.

I understand that his design is fairly simple, but what struck me as odd was that Damien was seemingly proud of being compared to me as though he knew that what he created looked like me. I could be reading into it too hard, but I don't appreciate the sentiment that someone wants to make an OC that's basically me. I don't really think anyone would allow that to happen if it was drawn by a human, but for some reason, because its AI creating it, people defend it as though its fully innocent.

Why couldn't Damien's version have different hair? Different eyes? Maybe an ear piercing? The dick is different at least, and it has that strange nose, but it just feels too similar, and many people have made me aware that they feel its too similar.

I put in a ticket, I'll let IB admins have the final word. I'm not going to really express much outside of this journal because I don't think Damien will be receptive based on his responses to other people who have approached the work. But like, I feel like if this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone on the site - so nobody's OCs can really be "theirs" here, because someone could just craft an AI simulacrum and say "This is my new OC!"

KevinSnowpaw

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I know the feeling i had a similure issue a while back with a guy who's charicter was basicly just me...only with a mark on his head and not a cub.

We diddent get along very well either bit he liked my ic and tried to get art if the two together without permission...so I know some what your feelings and attachments.

I spoke to the ai artist it was not an intentional resemblance he really does just like display his oc in. Various forms and apparently they share a few similarities

He is also patiently waiting on the administrations delusion on this matter so there no ill intent at least.

GreenReaper

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Owner

The hair was actually the thing that first had me saying "no, that's different, look at the colour". As you said elsewhere, there are a few other differences that distinguish it - such as the tone of the fur around the paws; or yes, the genitals.

This isn't the first time such a character collision has come up, it's just that AI happens to be involved, so we can see how it came about - and verify that that's actually what they did. The "why" is harder to determine, but their base character's colours are quite similar to a Patamon, and they do a lot of "me but Y" alternative versions in their gallery.

We're not comfortable with saying someone 'owns' the concept of "X with Y" - especially when Y is a member of a major media property with lots of fans - so when a claim is made we look for essentially an exact match. That said, I don't see any indication that this was intended as anything more than a one-off, even before the backlash.

(Also, not sure if there was an interpretation issue here; what the submission description says is "[this is a Patamon with] the basic characteristics of my main OC", rather than saying "this [complete character] is my OC". Both are at least half non-original because... they're Patamon. Similar to how I'm a green Kai Norn, albeit they're mostly bipedal already.)

oshi

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Wow! The resemblance is more than uncanny~

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ oshi

Iunno, I saw that nose and completely thought it was someone else

ShanetheFreestyler

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I just can't not see it. It's 100% Neo!

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ ShanetheFreestyler

Yeah... It really is so similar. I think one thing that really annoys me is that I like to think I'm well spoken, and present perspectives well. So when I try to express how AI art doing something like this is bad, or at least flawed, but the responses I get are mainly "Um actually the robot couldn't know it was you because of neural networks and the prompt and...", it makes me wonder about what it would take to have my thoughts about this understood by the other side.

Weiss

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Owner

The reason why disclosing prompts is required is so that mods can generate using said prompts and see if they create the same image or something different. If it's something different, then you're in trouble, especially if you don't disclose the prompts correctly. Someone in the comments actually checked and all the prompts are correct. There's also image metadata that can be easily checked, just in case the mods suspect something. If you look at Danien's explanation, he wasn't trying to copy your character, he was trying to make his own character into a Digimon. It just so happens that his human OC has the same characteristics as your OC, hence the claim Danien made. Pretty sure the post was reported several times and if the mods feel it's in violation of IB's policy you can bet it's going to be taken down. And yes, I agree, it's pretty much an exact match of your character. Not sure if Danien knew about your character before or not, they didn't make it very clear. Basically, just let the mods handle it, they have been doing an amazing job making sure every singe AI submission follows the rules.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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So I guess the mods use the prompt on what would be accepted as a "normally available" generator to see if the results would be the same - because couldn't one just like, have a specifically trained model that would differ from what the mods have access to?

I do appreciate the measures, I should be clear on that. I appreciate that they're trying to engage with this new technology in ways they think are equitable. I just wonder if maybe the rules should include more nuance for situations like these. I know that puts the burden of proof on them instead of suggesting something concrete, but its an interesting topic for sure.

Considering that this guy churns out tons of content, I'm sure he won't actually use this Patamon creation again anyway, but I had to talk about how I feel about it from my own perspective. I did ask the moderation team about what they think about this situation in relationship to rules on OCs in general, but I haven't heard back yet. Whatever they choose I'll live by - I have friends who are upset about this, ones that find this ridiculous, ones that asked me if I was okay; all of this made me think that maybe these AI creations aren't so innocent from these technical perspectives of "oh, the prompt can recreate it on a public model".

Weiss

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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"because couldn't one just like, have a specifically trained model that would differ from what the mods have access to?" That's why you have to disclose the models you use, the version of the models and even the hash code. It's also why the ACP states that you can only use freely available tools and models and can't use anything proprietary or closed source such as, for example, Midjourney or NovelAI.

The ACP states that you can't use the names of living or recently-deceased creators (within the last 25 years) or their non-commercial characters as prompts but it says nothing about the characters themselves. Honestly I agree, that should be included. Or at least state that you need the character's original owner's permission before submitting anything that features their characters.

In all honesty, I somewhat understand how you feel. While my OCs don't mean as much to me as yours does to you, I would still feel bummed out if I saw someone generate something that looks like one of my OCs down to the last detail and then claims it's their OC. To me it comes down to "Just because I can, doesn't mean I should." Hell I've done gens of characters from other artists just to see how they'd look but I never posted them anywhere, I simply scrapped them once my curiosity is sated. It's also why what I post here is mainly using the resources that Cobalt himself made since he gives permission for people to use them. It all comes down to how you use the tool really. And also how much knowledge you have of other people's OCs so you don't accidentally copy them

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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I super appreciate you answering my curiosities. I know I could have looked these up myself but I simply haven't.

Also appreciate your words, actually reading what I'm saying and understanding where I'm coming from. We'll see what happens, but I am sure there's going to be more cases like this in the future.

Weiss

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Hey, it's like that song goes, it's much better to face these kinds of things with a sense of poise and rationality

Danzabowo

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Ah great, a new song to be stuck in my head, at least it's a good one. xD

Weiss

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Muhahahahahaha, suffer like I have for the last week or so XD!

Telain

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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Works featuring their characters are already covered by the ownership policy. You can generate things that are close and skate by, but the same can be said for real art. Like the people doing art of Laika, they didn't use a lora but described her pretty well recreate her. But since they say it is her, Zaush would be well within his right to have them removed.

Weiss

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Ah, ok that makes sense, appreciate the explanation

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Moderation has basically told me in the ticket that my character's design is too simple, and that while they emphasize with my feelings, they don't feel like there's an issue with the submission.

I'm not sure if I'll fight it. Everyone can already tell it's AI and they know it isn't me, and some people seem to enjoy its creation.

Telain

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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The fact that it's AI doesn't even factor into it, aside that we can see what went into the creation. There are distinct features between the characters to set them apart. Dainen has previously put the same features on other characters, so it's apparent they weren't intentionally trying to copy you.

At this point, I'd like to see the two of you come to some agreement, but this isn't considered an ownership/copying issue, and I don't feel the decision would be any different from a moderation standpoint. As for what the community thinks of it, I think that's pretty apparent.

GreenReaper

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Owner

"	The ACP states that you can't use the names of living or recently-deceased creators (within the last 25 years) or their non-commercial characters as prompts but it says nothing about the characters themselves. Honestly I agree, that should be included.

I think you might have missed the "nor train models and/or use artist-focused LoRAs to obtain a similar effect" bit just after that. Or perhaps you think it should be worded something like "artist- or fursona-focused LoRAs"?

Weiss

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ GreenReaper

No, I saw it, it doesn't specify characters, just artist styles. Unless artist-focused means not just the style but also their fursonas/original characters? Because that's not the way I would personally interpret" artist-focused" though that could always be a failing on my part

GreenReaper

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Owner

Since the above comments didn't link it, here's the model they used (you have to login to see it, but it's otherwise freely available). The examples show a variety of feral and anthro Patamon-style characters, especially once you turn on higher ratings via the settings cog in the profile menu and refresh. It isn't clear which "31 images" were used for training, however none of the examples generated have head-fur that is significantly different to the base colour (most do not have it at all), so I would be surprised if they used any images of you to create it. The point is to generate work with characteristics similar to Patamon, rather than NeoPatamonX specifically.

Alahan

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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yeah, one glance and I had to double take and ask myself 'isn't this just Neo?', looked further at the comments and he's on my block list now, that's not okay in my book,

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ Alahan

It would seem that the site believes that this kind of generation is okay. I'm heavily contemplating my stance of being on this site again.

Alahan

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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if you decide to migrate, please let us know where you're heading Neo, i've always loved your artwork and stories/comics,

FriskeyFurley

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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copying ocs in general isnt good
regardless if its done directly by humans or ai

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ FriskeyFurley

I do agree. The consensus from the site administration is that this wasn't copying because the model wasn't trained on art of my OC and the prompts didn't have my name in it.

I don't agree, but their decision seems final already according to the OP of this work.

AsbieArts

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Genuinely revolting.

Mods and admins defending this is honestly more infuriating than talentless freaks shamelessly stealing art, but what do I know.

The fact there's almost as many AI posts than the entirety of "digimon" posts is ludicrous.

Sorry you're havign this happen to you, Neo :(

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ AsbieArts

I appreciate it Asbie. I'm reconsidering once again if this is a good home for Neo at all

Breetails

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ AsbieArts

The admins don't give a crap about artists. Give it a few years and this site will be dead . I'm tempted to wipe my gallery, I stopped uploading new submissions and moved to blusky and my works getting views and favorites there. Just a lurker now.

AI artists are all quantity over quality. It's soulless garbage.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ AsbieArts

Yeah, I wiped my Gallery yesterday and hosting Art and Stories on my personal Telegram Group. All the Admins and Mods are pieces of shit for defending AI Art. There's more to copying/plagirising than keywords/prompts. I've watched a number of videos showing and explaining how AI Programs scrape actual images/content to train for their output. Due to

GreenReaper

and the rest the complacent Pro-AI Admins/Mods, I've relegated myself to a lurker from Creator. As Breetails mentioned, make an AI branch of IB like e621 does. If that's too much work, then AI should of been banned in the first place; it's not art, it's manufactured creations that mimics art.

PoorSal

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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AI users will claim full artistic control until moral or legal implications are brought up-- then it is the AI's responsibility. Even if it is a mistake-- it shows one of the primary issues of AI imagery. It is idea laundering.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ PoorSal

Yeah uwu it's really annoying to try and interface with most of these people about what a lot of people feel is common sense.

FriskeyFurley

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

it's quite a mess
and i think very likely that ai used some of neo's art
especially if they are tagged as patamon.
the name neo doesn't even need to be in their tags .
the ai will go through pics that are tagged with patamon
see images of neo and will think hes a patamon since the pic is tagged with it

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

@ FriskeyFurley

Exactly.

Telain

fails to understand this point.

Telain

2 weeks ago

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I have already addressed this point.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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I said understand the point, not address the point.

Vercursar

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

I'd also like to speak up because I also own a Patamon as an OC.
I was inspired by

NeoPatamonX

, but with my Patamon I made sure not to copy him. Instead, I put my own stamp on my creation, taking his Digimon image and then turning him into his own species with lore and everything.

My Version: https://inkbunny.net/s/2813053-p3-#pictop

I'm neither pro AI nor against it, but I think there should be stricter enforcement to prevent obvious copies like the ones mentioned in this thread, because otherwise, theoretically, anyone could simply clone an OC using AI, and it would just be waved through as if it didn't matter!

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

In a conversation with

Telain

via Support Tickets, their logic is if someone's OC is on the Internet, it's fair game essentially to have said OC in the meta data and one can claim one's OC as their own. I have a copy of the Support Ticket. I can share the transcript only via Journal or DM on Telegram. Admins claim to not be Pro AI, but their actions suggest otherwise. This kind of attitude is why I cleared my Gallery and migrated my creations to a personal Telegram group to post art and stories.

Telain

2 weeks ago

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That is not at all what I said. The submission you keep trying to paint as us "allowing stealing OCs" is using a LoRA to get similar features (lop ears being the most notable to me) on a different breed. And the LoRA was uploaded by the owner of the OC. If they had a problem with it, it might be worth discussing, but the character was not copied.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Fine. What about the NeoPatamonX clone that

DainenDog

uploaded? AI doesn't need just prompts to copy it's output. AI should of been banned from the getgo OR IB has it's own AI fork like e621 does.

Telain

2 weeks ago

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As has been explained over and over, Dainen used features that correspond with his normal OC to generate a Patamon, like he's done for so many other species. Neo doesn't have exclusive rights to Patamon OCs with blond hair and blue eyes.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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But pre-existing images of his OC can use the Patamon tag. The hairstyle is the same and shade of yellow. Dainen should of altered certain details to avoid this whole debacle and confusion of OC theft.

Telain

2 weeks ago

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"	But pre-existing images of his OC can use the Patamon tag

What?

It is a darker shade of blonde, and I think that short cut is pretty common on male characters when they have hair. And I agree, I wish they'd come to some sort of solution, but ultimately no rules were broken for us to step in and be fair in doing so.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

Then you should amend the rules. My opinion still stands then you condone OC theft by you guy's inaction and complacency. It's very telling that everyone thinks

DainenDog

"creation" is Neo.

Telain

2 weeks ago

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I've been mistaken for other Eevee OCs and they for me. Should all but one of us be taken down or made to change our features as well?

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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That's comparing Apples to Oranges of an analogy. This is about AI functions and methods that actively scrapes the internet of images for it to train on, not just tags. The other confusion you mention can likely be human coincidence.

Telain

2 weeks ago

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The fact that it's AI doesn't even matter. If Dainen didn't already have established blond hair and blue eyes, then maybe an argument could be made due to the limited training set for Patamon (though canon Patamon has blue eyes anyway, so you're just left with hair color), but he does. I have no love for Dainen or ai art, but this conversation would be very different if some artist had done the same without AI.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Yes, the conversation would be different if not AI. You guys should of made better rules, make and AI alt site or ban AI altogether. The fact you don't shows you are Pro-AI, despite your claim of dislike. Why did you even bother joining on as a Mod if you do indeed dislike AI? Sites like this and FA are supposed to be for Artists right. AI is not art no matter what mental gymnastics you try to use to defend it.

SpoonFox

2 weeks ago

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I've seen your character associate with you so long, when I see someone else with a similar character, I question if it is your OC or not. It is still generic, unfortunately, so it makes it a lot harder to enforce. It's similar to trying to enforce someone having a pink fox OC, but anthro patamons are not as common as such.

It does hurt. I've had my characters stolen in the past, and not a damn soul stood up for me. But you at least have many willing to defend you.

I don't think your OC was stolen, based on what I'm looking at, but just due to the extreme rarity of your character's species and even them being anthro, it feels shocking to see more of them to some.

And to people fighting the admins, if this wasn't AI, would you still be acting the same? Someone already showed their own Patamon Anthro in the comments, but none of you attacked him. You're looking for excuses to attack an AI Director. This has nothing to do with AI, but OC creation. Stay on task. You're just making your cases worse. And calling out admins calling them 'AI defenders' is shitty too, not all of them are AI lovers, Hell, many of them just tolerate it because of the compromise. It's easier to control it if you allow it instead of ban it kind of appeal. While I do not agree with this decision, it's their site. You're welcome to leave, just as anyone else, or even make your own site, in which, I wish you luck.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

And that's exactly what I did. Banning AI would be the best choice since it'd nip all the controversies in the bud. AI is not art. It's manufactured garbage used by those who are lazy and don't want to learn to draw and practice at it. It has been PROVEN to harm writers (such as me) artists, musicians ect. Admins/Mods are just complacent and Pro-AI who refuse to do anything about it. Their actions speak louder than their words and excuses. Sidenote, these people make money off AI which is very wrong.

Vercursar

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

I see it again and again on DA, where AI art is sold, and sometimes even OC clones.

Recently, someone cloned Aerys (link here: https://inkbunny.net/s/249046 , https://inkbunny.net/s/1876985) his bat. What I have to say about that is that Aerys is extremely racist and misogynistic, and I warned the person who cloned his OC that he'd get himself into a lot of trouble if he did that.
Aerys is Banned on much Sites!

I have no idea what happened in the end.

But to get back to the original topic.

AI is a very strong tumor in the art of drawing, destroying the work of many in the craft.

AI is interesting for helping, but not for performing a perfect job.

SpoonFox

2 weeks ago

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I am vehemently against AI art being used to make money without compensating those who it was trained off of a sizeable chunk of the profits. DA has always been shady as fuck, like when people found their art on Hot Topic T-Shirts without their knowledge or getting paid royalties due to the ToS bullshit DA pulls off.

Yeah, I've heard about that fellow being a big red flag.

And I agree, AI is nice for helping, but not a definitive form of art. People who tweak and paint over and change an AI generated image, or using AI assistance (like some Photoshop tools) are not the same as people who just put in words and proceed to get an AI image in my eyes either.

I only accept AI generation if it's used as a toy, not used for profit, not used as a replacement either, and not put on the same shelf as real artists' work. Even then... Many AI Directors I've met have been entitled or assholes. A few are nice people, but... Woof, when I see them going "Haha, we're replacing you, you can't stop us" it boils my fucking blood.

Vercursar

2 weeks ago

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Same here!

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

To be fair,

Vercursar

specifically told his story about how he went out of his way to make his character more unique, so that's why nobody attacked him. His Patamon is a lot different, it looks a lot more adult, and his works are tailored towards a specific fetish most of the time. Its very distinct.

Here's the thing. If a human drew a Neo clone on accident, they usually have the skill and ability to change it a bit. And if they don't, then we can all agree that they're stealing the concept. But somehow, when an AI does something similar, we see people defending it when you could simply change some more words in a prompt and spit out something else - it should be EASIER to make everyone happen in this situation, but instead, people are decided to dig their heels into the dirt and cover their ears to the many voices complaining about this.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, honestly. And I am grateful for my fans and friends who are willing to fight on my behalf, its really touching... The things that irk me about this situation:

* Dainen's message making it sound like he's created an OC using AI that's fairly similar to me, save the nose and penis
* Dainen's DM to me basically gloating about wining over the site admins - could be a language thing, could be a result of the exhaustion, could be arrogance, I have no idea
* The fact that what I've expressed to administration doesn't seem to be taken very seriously, their talking down to my design being too "simple" and "basic" to deserve to be treated carefully when in the same breath, they tell me things like "If it was Zausch we'd probably do something about it"
* The narrative that AI is "innocent", when everyone admits it steals art
* Dainen watermarking the image (pet peeve, but still)
* Dainen removing the parameters from the actual creation file itself

IB Administration has asked me to "bow down and blow over". They don't want this narrative to continue because they think their rules are perfect. I am annoyed because I believe the rules could use more nuance, and that someone else without my history or support might end up feeling a LOT worse than I have over this. I was trying to argue the ethical questions about this situation to hopefully convince the administration to reconsider some rules.

I'm really trying my best to give as much benefit of doubt I can. I'm trying to make these kinds of situations that are inevitably going to come up in the future have something to look back on so people can go "Oh yeah, this is like the time that happened to Neo, and we had some good dialogue about this". Its been a wild couple of days...

SpoonFox

2 weeks ago

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He gloated about winning over admins? The fuck? That's a bullshit move to begin with. And yeah, I agree, it's easier for a director to change the outcome than it is an artist to tweak their character... So there is some disrespect involved in this situation.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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Yeah uwu At least, it read that way when I shared it with friends. My mind has been abuzz about this situation so I tried to get other opinions on this so I didn't do/say something stupid.

But its okay. I'm going to let the site keep its ruling and I'll continue to contemplate whether Neo belongs here or not

Vercursar

2 weeks ago

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I'm already outsourcing my images extensively.
Because I'm afraid that IB could become a hole that's completely behind AI, which you can unfortunately already see in the administration and mods, who have no neutrality whatsoever and simply work according to their imposed codex rules.
AI is great.
AI isn't harmful to artists who want to make money.

FA has taken the right path and banned all AI (deep learning) publications because they're trying to protect the artists and the buyers.

I'll send you a note, Neo

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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GreenReaper

Salmy

Dunno why you AI loving Dipshits couldn't ban AI from the getgo and protect artists. FA bans it.

Vercursar

1 week, 6 days ago

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ManaAraxis wrote:

GreenReaper

Salmy

Dunno why you AI loving Dipshits couldn't ban AI from the getgo and protect artists. FA bans it.

But FA is also keeping a close eye on minors, so

NeoPatamonX

and the people you mentioned have no chance anymore, because their OCs look too much like underage children.

I also have to be a bit careful, because I have a wolf who looks a bit like a minor.

ManaAraxis

1 week, 6 days ago

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Oof, forgot about THAT rule of FA's. X_X Guess there is no safe site for legit artists.

Danzabowo

1 week, 6 days ago

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Does X/BlueSky allow it?

billmurray

1 week, 5 days ago

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if you get reported, there's a good chance your account will be suspended.

Danzabowo

1 week, 5 days ago

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Oof, so no cub or cub-looking stuff on there?

billmurray

1 week, 4 days ago

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I can't say with authority but for the last couple years I feel like the answer has been "no". Marimo has been banned multiple times from X for example >w>

threeracoons

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

Since you're comfortable throwing accusations of gloating without providing any proof in this little echo chamber you've created here, I've asked Dainen to show me the DM in its entirety. After all, whenever logs are not provided, I always assume someone is lying.

Here it is:

Hello, NeoPatamonX,

I would like to talk to you about the recent events that have happened. First of all, I would like to let you know that my intention was never to copy your character. I may be many things, and maybe some of the names I get called are justified in some way, as all current AI is unfortunately stolen art. But I would never want to specifically target someone for their art or their OC.

Fortunately, the situation is now resolved, both with your and the other tickets answered, and with the response from the site owner himself in the post you created. They agree that my idea was just to create a Patamon with the characteristics of my main OC and nothing else.

Now that I'm no longer threatened with moderation, I would like to resolve it for you, too: It will take some work, but I can change those images and use the characteristics or some of my other characters. Would you be satisfied with that solution? Like you, I don't want anyone to think I recreated your character with AI, especially since you don't like the concept.

Best regards,

So, he tells you that now that site moderation cleared him, he's willing to put in extra work to fix the situation for you.
And this is how you react to it? I know it's more comfortable to stay here, among your peers, all cosy in this loop of negativity and hate. But maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan... he could not have bent himself over more backwards to offer you an olive branch than this. He even showed us the alternate designs for that patamon character that he worked on, expecting you to accept the offer, different eyes, hair, and skin colors and everything. He really wanted to resolve this.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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I wasn't shown any of these alternatives...

I don't agree that I've created an "echo chamber". I have simply created a journal and I'm talking with friends/fans about how I feel about how this situation has gone down. If my interpretation of his message is wrong, then that's my bad; don't jump to me trying to have an echo chamber. I've already DM'd Dainen saying that there's nothing that can be done about this because the damage is already done.

I recognize that the discourse here hasn't been 100% civil from all parties, but there's not much I can do about that either. I think I've been fair in all the ways I've expressed this situation save from just going "Oh no, I don't think anything's wrong here at all" - I'm still allowed to have my opinions on this matter. I could have done A LOT more bitching and going for blood, so don't come at me with that venom in your words.

zoleth

2 weeks ago

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He offered to make the alternatives, and you turned him down. How was he supposed to show them to you?

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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@ zoleth

I'm just surprised that he didn't offer to show me what he's created, but its possible he did alternatives after he messaged me. I only turned him down moments before reading the replies. Its fine either way.

zoleth

2 weeks ago

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I'm going to be honest here: I didn't want to even comment on this journal at all. It probably isn't worth the hassel it'll bring.

But I really do feel like your anger clouded your reading on Dainen's message to you. I've read it a few times over, and I don't see the gloating you characterized. Of course, take that from me with a grain of salt. But I just don't see it

And then you state about that he didn't send you the alternatives, yet in his message it is clearly laid out that he will work on them if you want him to - not that he already had them. So why were you surprised he didn't send you the alternatives?

I truly believe you and he could have worked it out, but there is so much anger here from so many that no one could see it, even if they wanted to.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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@ zoleth

I appreciate your read on this, I probably could have tried to have a cooler head about it. I'll take back what I said about being surprised about the alternatives.

I'm getting ready to close this out I think. The site doesn't believe that my character is unique enough to be protected. Dainen's creation invokes my OC to a lot of people - I didn't even know it existed until it was pointed out to me. Its been a dizzying experience to say the least.

threeracoons

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

Take a moment to watch and read and see what you've created here. You're not moderating any of the toxicity, you're happy to have these "friendly" strangers spew their hate and bile to anyone who disagrees with you.

All you've done is add yet another safe place for the same angry people who join in on every "I will leave Inkbunny because it hates real artists" journals, inviting all those same toxic lurkers and 5 dollar artists to come and join you and say the same thing (even though bizarrely, they keep threatening they'll leave Inkbunny but never actually leave???)

You say I'm venomous just because I called you out for exactly what you created. An echo chamber where you pick any fact that supports your argument, and let others shout down anyone who tries to provide an alternate view. And while I can forgive you for not being willing to moderate these people because you're yearning to have their support, I have to call you out when you outright lie, saying you're receiving gloating DMs from Dainen without providing the logs. Lo and behold, you saw and picked your own, worst possible interpretation of it, and you hid the true content and meaning of it from your audience.

A lie of omission is still a lie.

What's your aim here? What is the point of this whole thing? Is it to ask questions, change things for the better? Or is it to find solace in the comfort of blind, collective hate.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 weeks ago by Owner

This was a journal to discuss my feelings, as I said before.

I don't believe that I should moderate what people say if they want to say it. If I edited/deleted/told people to stop, that would have more attributes to an "echo chamber" like you've described - at least that's my view on it. And since its my journal, I feel like I have the right to use it how I please. You can just leave you know.

Breetails

2 weeks ago

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What a fucking asshole. Fuck you

DainenDog

Danzabowo

2 weeks ago

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"	Breetails wrote:
	Your getting pretty mad about this. No ones cursing at you man, Stop dropping Fbombs.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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Knock it off moron. Bree said that when we tried to be civil and with Admins. You and they AI crowd are a waste of space and a cancer to the world of art.

Danzabowo

2 weeks ago

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Couldn't let go of the irony of the situation, lel.

KevinSnowpaw

2 weeks ago

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come on now Bree :( He waited until the administrative staff made a final ruling on the issue as if they decided to remove it farther action on his part would be pointless...once they decided it was OK to stay up he attempted to make it right for all parties involved.

You can hate AI art and thats fair, you can Disagree with the admins choice and thats fair... but hes not being an ass hole :( he did not have to try to make the situation amicable for all parties.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

We've been civil before and that didnt' work. Admins have a clear bias towards these smug AI pieces of shit. The Admins and mods aren't any better. Reason I have my account in deactivation status right now. Inkbunny is no longer a place for artists, just lazy people that don't want to learn to draw, put in the effort and use AI programs to manufacture and steal pre existing work.

KevinSnowpaw

2 weeks ago

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SO anybody who makes AI art is a smug piece of shit?

I understand your upset but you're honestly a little too upset, now your generalizing.

I'm sorry you feel this way, mana, I truly am. Attacking people over it won't help anything though :(

In fact, the only thing it CAN do is make you look like the bad guy to the casual observer, who will not understand why you are so passionate about it.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

I'm just passionate because I know of artists that have been hurt by AI, argued with Admins civilly beforehand and all AI crowd react and act the same; uber defensive when called out on. The Admins having a clear bias and siding with the AI crowd is the tipping point.

KevinSnowpaw

2 weeks ago

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I know your passionate and theres nothing wrong with feeling passionately about something...

just remember not to let your temper flare and cuase you to say or do things that can be used as ammunition against you.

My advice, take 2 steps back and calm down a little. :( lots of flared tempers right now. You dont have to change your mind, this is not me telling you that you are wrong, just, breath and remain level headed. ^^

Danzabowo

2 weeks ago

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I won't delve too deep into it, but I just wanna touch on a couple points;

* Dainen's message making it sound like he's created an OC using AI that's fairly similar to me, save the nose and penis

Hue of the orange, nips, and pawbs too. He also never said he created an OC, just that he put his OC as a Patamon, which was unfortunate that his OC (not the patamon one, just the original one) has blonde hair and blue eyes which is the only characteristic he uses when he takes his OC and makes them into something else.

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* Dainen watermarking the image (pet peeve, but still)

tbh I used to be weirded out by it too, but it is nice, so if someone uses the image provided they know who prompted it in case whomever likes the image can search for their name/website/tag.

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* Dainen removing the parameters from the actual creation file itself

This happens when applying another layer to it (watermarking) on another image editing software, it's also why we have to put the prompt/parameters/settings on a txt/json/(whatever IB accepts that words can be put on). Besides, a person (GobGhoul) on the original submission tested the prompt in the txt file.

GobGhoul wrote:

I don't know if anyone cares, but I generated the images, and yes, they are completely legitimate. If anyone wants to see the images I generated, here are the links: https://files.catbox.moe/iowibl.png and https://files.catbox.moe/3qi3cq.png.

The contrast and tone correction are associated with the image appearing a little darker, but he says he modified the file in an image editor, so it makes perfect sense.

I hope this helps.

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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AI uses more than tags, prompts and all that BS. Actual images scraped off the net are also used. Something YOU idiots and idiot Admins fail to understand.

Danzabowo

2 weeks ago

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Kinda went out of left field with this, what part were you replying to?

ManaAraxis

2 weeks ago

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The part about changing tags/parameters.

Danzabowo

2 weeks ago

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Oh gotcha, it wasn't about changing tags and parameters, just about how the parameters/tags/prompts are forced to be there unless the uploader wants to get in trouble. I'm grateful that IB has ANY rules, we could be DA/X/Patreon/SS who has NO rules. :(

Honestly I can't speak for the scraped images part, I know some (most?) models can get trained that way, but that's as far as my brain goes. I'm a simple furry.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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I appreciate you pointing out why the parameters would be removed. Based on the discourse it felt weird that they would be removed intentionally; I couldn't figure out why he would do that - but if it can't be helped after doing modifications then that actually makes sense. I wasn't aware that's how that works.

Appreciate you understanding the middle point you replied to - and I guess that makes sense too. That's why I said pet peeve because I knew I was kind of reaching there.

Hue of orange is a bit off, and the hands are a bit different... But I only outlined what I noticed immediately because distinction should probably be something that could be noticed at glance.

My feelings on this keep fluctuating, which makes posting about it hard because I put words out there and I can't really edit it. I'm trying to only post when I think I'm convicted, but as the moderation has told me to "move on and let go" - maybe its time to lock this journal.

Danzabowo

2 weeks ago

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No worries and sorry for diving into it like that, I guess my mind just went 'they know about AI so point it all out' and felt some heat from the comment I replied to.

If I'm being honest, I'm only understand the feelings of the AI side of this, so I don't truly know how I'd feel about it if I was in your shoes and this happened to my OC (this is just my AI account, so my actual character on my actual IB account).

I will say, I do understand the "can't really edit it" feel, someone on a Discord group (for AI stuff) has very skewed opinions on what constitutes "intersex" and sends one message, then edits it about 20-30 times till something like "you're so f*ing wrong" turns into "3 paragraphs of well written text", and you watch as it just grows and changes. So whenever I see "edited message" I wonder 'what was the original message?'.

I know it won't bring peace of mind, but idk about locking the journal, but it's not my call to make. ^^

Telain

2 weeks ago

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"	If it was Zausch we'd probably do something about it

I'm sorry, but you completely misread my comment. I was saying that when OCs are replicated by prompts we will take them down. There's one I saw recently that was specifically saying it was Laika, meaning they were saying it was Zaush's character and Zaush had a right to have it taken down if they wished. If they hadn't named her, well I'd have to look closer as tribal wolf isn't particularly unique either.

"	Dainen removing the parameters from the actual creation file itself

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure IB removes the metadata anyway.

"	they think their rules are perfect

Just no, I have said over and over that they aren't, and I have been pushing for changing them, but things more slowly. Moreso when you want to do it correctly.

Even the annoucement for the AI ruleset, which has changed somewhat since, included "we encourage constructive feedback on this policy, as it is not set in stone." The problem is things like this devolve into certain people just firebombing the conversation over and over and making it really hard to find the constructive bits.

SpoonFox

1 week, 5 days ago

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The worst part is, the neutral sides get both sides of the burn. Like a certain mouse flaming the fuck out of people who don't fully agree, and a few AI artists who scream the moment their invalid prompts are challenged. Being a moderator requires neutrality, so it gets difficult and wears on you. *pat pat* Thank you for trying your hardest.

NeoPatamonX

1 week, 5 days ago

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I apologize, once again, for making generalizations... The admin who corresponded with me in my ticket was a bit terse with me and I probably let that get on my nerves more. I've appreciated your contributions to this discourse.

I do believe that a mechanism that clearly delineates the site to have AI submissions hidden by default is a good idea. I believe a lot of people don't have the user knowledge about blocking the keywords, or they choose not to use the feature for some reason?

Again, I apologize for my generalizations. Thanks for continuing the discourse in a civil tone.

Amphy139

2 weeks ago

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The day this generative algorithm techbro crap gets tossed aside for another stupid toy just like NFTs will be a good day.

NeoPatamonX

2 weeks ago

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@ Amphy139

I have to agree. AI should replace undesirable and dangerous work, not take away opportunity from people who aspire to be artists.

Amphy139

2 weeks ago

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Absolutely. An example of this is that one app that helped some medical foundation research stuff by using your PC or PS3 to process info, similar to how Bitcoin was mined. Analyzing and cataloging information, and other monotonous tasks, are suited for AI. Generative AI for "art", across music, animated mediums, and pictures is pure theft. And when people defend this crap... honeys, Elon will never love or or even notice your existence.

Breetails

2 weeks ago

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@ Amphy139

That day ill be celebrating like Al Gore after his book sold.

TeckTheGrem

2 weeks ago

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I wasn't going to comment here, but wtv. I think I have to address the reoccurring argument of Neo's design being "too simple". In less than 10 minutes I used the same expression as the AI person and drew 4 patamon faces with same directions used for the picture. In all cases I made 4 just as cute patas that plenty of people agreed weren't Neo.

To those who still want to use that argument, politely and respectfully... fuck off. If AI wasn't involved the mods would act differently, but since they rather cute pushing for AI rather than keep peeps who've contributed for this website for 2 decades, here we are. I got no hopes this will get resolved since mods had given their final say, a shame and as far as I see, a tell on where the staff got their priorities.

Amphy139

2 weeks ago

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@ TeckTheGrem

Dipshit admins and mods chasing trends and jumping on techbro BS while throwing their longtime users under the bus, a tale as old as the internet. They never learn.

TeckTheGrem

2 weeks ago

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@ Amphy139

Honestly, I'm on my way out and wasn't going to say anything but had to chime in as I been keeping a close eye on this debacle in particular. I find odd GreenReaper went to my goodbye journal to see me off when I explicitly say it is due to this AI policy of his.

ManaAraxis

1 week, 6 days ago

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@ TeckTheGrem

It shows he is unfeeling about the valid criticisms of AI.

TeckTheGrem

1 week, 6 days ago

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Yeeeeeah he doesn't seem to mind the website loses users who actually care for drawings or the artists who make them. But alas, AIbros being AIbros.

MistahToonCatUwU

1 week, 6 days ago

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Edited 1 week, 6 days ago by Owner

It's just a gross mishandling of what happens when you allow ai to be intertwined with honest artists, I'm actually displeased and disappointed by the site staff

Pro ai furries do not care about the end result, only it's another chamber in the goon cave. Take it away, and they'll be crying beet red.

What are site staff gonna do, actually keep the blood and soul of inkbunny in high regards or give the bottom feeders a mile

We artists do absolutely not care about this mysticism of le ai
We just want our staff to take this seriously, no more Johns

billmurray

1 week, 5 days ago

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Edited 1 week, 5 days ago by Owner

I'm still working my way through the huge backlog of comments here, because I wanna see how the discourse went. I don't really like seeing anyone stirring the pot, intentionally or otherwise, on either side of this whole thing but I do feel like you have a 100% legit reason to be annoyed.

I just don't want to see the quality of the site keep sliding as a result of crap like this. There isn't really any other place like Inkbunny, and if anyone thinks there is one, I'd like to see them float it. I almost never see drama here compared to any other place. But as far as drama goes, this one feels like it could end up being a doozy xwx

I really hope this gets resolved....

NeoPatamonX

1 week, 5 days ago

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Sadly, I've been told by administration that Neo is too basic to be considered a design they can protect, and that I should move on.

I'm just grateful for the people that care about how I feel about it so much, that means more than some AI thing out there. Artists have shown me the ways they could make Patamons that don't look like me, but Dainen wants a Patamon that shares likeness to his own OC and we just have similar attributes - something I didn't realize at first.

Breetails

1 week, 5 days ago

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