Inkbunny

That actually so funny, lol!

TheDapperCharizard117

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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It really is, since the root word is literally "commune". How tf is something like that not for the people?

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Plus when you actually read communist theory, they center the largest class in society, the working class.
But communism isn't for the people somehow lol

Kellyn

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Owner

To be completely fair, people are used to politicians trying to push terrible laws through that are named the opposite of what they do such as safety and security bills that allow the government more power to spy on you or child safety bills that ensure your children will never have a private thought online even if they are doing nothing wrong.

JackDesert

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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It's for the betterment of the people but once a small group gets control of dispensing resources, it's too easy to double (or more) their own share.
I think Communism works best in small scale like isolated towns where if someone starts fattening his own corner to the detriment of the rest, the rest can correct it. When it's someone that has most if not all the weapons in his control, it becomes a problem. The idea of capitalism and communism is sound on paper, but once in practice, problems that wasn't thought of comes out of the woodwork like the plague.
Both capitalism and communism has been around since we started putting up stone buildings and needed a way to share resources. We don't hear much about those systems going wrong because one good war knocked the area down to stone age and have to start over. We start seeing hints of the problems in the era of The Roman empire where both systems were in effect and greed outlasted war. In the past couple hundred years, society became so resilient that we can clearly see the large holes in both systems.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ JackDesert

"Both capitalism and communism has been around since we started putting up stone buildings and needed a way to share resources."

Capitalism developed out of feudalism and mercantilism around the 1500s, communism developed out of the industrial capitalism in the 1800s. Both of these economic systems are comparatively young in terms of human civilization. You could not have capitalism on a large scale under feudalism, which was a completely different mode of production

JackDesert

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Hmmm good point, I simply meant the idea of gaining riches on the backs of people in civilizations could be found a few thousand years before in Mesopotamia with merchants having several workhouses manufacturing or buying and selling wares from near China to close to Italy without the benefit of large wagons As well with several traceable civilizations where everyone did what they did best and half of what they made was put into a warehouse to be given out to each of their abilities and to each of their needs because they were too far remote to have common trade so money had little to no use to them.
Neither have the title of Communism or Capitalism, but both could be confused with that if those civilizations had survived to more modern day.
So while the 'true' Capitalism/Communism is within the last half millennia... the basic idea cropped up several times and was just a way of surviving without the tools like guns or nukes.

capitoldefense

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

I think where that argument comes into play is when known Communist leaders are observed and the constrictions they place on the people they are ruling over becomes not so much communism but a dictatorship.
True government for the people and by the people is democracy, not communism.
Then, again, true democracy doesn't really exist, either, because it depends on altruism.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ capitoldefense

what is democracy? please define what the concept is because communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive.

RobbieWallace

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Noooooo, not communism😢

BeholderLens

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I'm with you, Capitalism all the way, baby!

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Capitalism is how we have all the problems we have today qwq

BeholderLens

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Wait til you research the problems that come with communism. No system is perfect, but one system seems to work better. Either way, I respect disagreement and wish ya'll well :3

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Capitalism definitely doesn't work better, sorry. A system that relies on exploitation, private ownership of the things everyone in society needs to survive, and the commodification of all aspects of society is inherently flawed and doomed to fail.

Communism isn't perfect, I agree, but it's a hell of a lot better than capitalism has proven to be

BeholderLens

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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We'll agree to disagree, all good.

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Is it because you couldn't defend the statements you made that capitalism is somehow better???

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Owner

Id be curious if they could (in their own words) define what capitalism and communism are, and give detailed arguments about what makes capitalism better

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Top 5 problems of communism:

1. Being invaded by capitalists
2. Being sanctioned by capitalists
3. Being couped by capitalists
4. Being forced to adopt capitalist reforms or no trade
5. Agricultural reforms not going as planned

JackDesert

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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It's probably we all have bigger fish to fry than this argument.
So 'agree to disagree' recognizes opinions and leaves the door open to discuss things for the times where stress is low enough to talk about it in a civil tongue.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ JackDesert

But there was literally no confrontation, no argument, no hostility. The guy was presented with a counterargument and immediately folded. That tells me he supports capitalism solely because it's the status quo, and when presented with another opinion, he backs out because he doesn't actually know anything about either system to have a discussion

RobbieWallace

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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What makes capitalism better? Capitalism brings us abundance by providing work, generating income for the state with which you will later be paid a pension when you retire. You can buy whatever you want without being regulated by the government, you can own your assets without the state seizing your property. At the beginning of the 20th century, capitalism was responsible for lifting practically the entire planet out of poverty with the industrial revolution.
While communism is the system for lazy people who want everything for free without working, they think that everything is solved if the state prints free money, because they don't know about inflation.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Wow, thank you for demonstrating you don't know anything about either system.

Capitalism provides so much work people need 2 jobs just to make ends meet.
Having a pension paid out by the state isn't capitalism, socialism can also (and did also) provide the exact same social service.
Government regulation on what goods you can purchase exists in capitalism. The United States famously outlaws the buying and selling of slaves for example.
The state can seize your property under capitalism if you owe debt. It's called "repossession".
Capitalism famously solved poverty in the 1800s, there's no more poverty thanks to capitalism. Really?
Communism, a system run by and for the working class, doesnt want to do any work whatsoever. Karl Marx definitely never said labor is a necessity of life and is what gives things their value.
Communists also don't know what inflation is apparently? Lmfao

RobbieWallace

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I speak from what I see, and I see that communism has never worked at any time in history or anywhere where it has been implemented. It destroys economies, takes away individual freedoms, censors the media, just look at China where they lock you up in jail if you are not a follower of the regime. Curiously, leftists say that the right is fascist, when I don't know of anything more fascist than communism.
And if today people work two shifts it is because unfortunately the state cannot cope with so many people who live without producing, so many lazy people who do not work are a dead weight that generates inflation and prices go up.
I invite you to give me explanations of why you think that communism is much better because I swear that I will read and analyze them, my mind is very open, do not think that I am also a "evil fascist racist radical satanic far right"

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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You also don't know what fascism is either, cool.

Why is communism better? It doesn't reply on exploiting the labor of workers to enrich a guy who owns something. It doesn't rely on commodity production to increase profits. It doesn't suffer from crises of overproduction every couple of years. There is no class antagonism between owners and workers. There is no state to enforce the will of one class over another (since it is classless). it provides things to people based on their need, not their ability to pay for it. There are no imperialist wars over global markets. It centered cooperation over competition. and it is the only viable alternative to capitalism, which is currently (literally) destroying the planet and will cause our species enormous suffering in the coming years.

RobbieWallace

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I have never spoken to a communist who was not a narcissist and a bit conceited, I don't mean to say that you are, but basically your position is "I know everything, you know nothing".
All those supposed advantages of communism that you supposedly talk about sound more like a fantasy world from a Disney movie, because something like "functional communism" has never existed in real life, in the real world it is just a dream.
I have to clarify that I am not a super fan of capitalism either, we simply have to recognize that no system created by humans will be perfect.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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My position isn't "i know everything", just that I know more about my own political beliefs and the ideology i support than you do, demonstrably so. Communist theorists dismissed utopian communism in the 1800s, i'm not laboring under a belief that it will be a perfect utopia, believe me.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Idk why you asked me to explain why i think communism is better if you're not going to engage with it

BattyBatFirebrand

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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My favorite anti-communist argument grift?  Communism is against human nature.

I would suggest human nature is a concept, an idea, or more like an interpretation of social relations -- public, private, personal, business, and a mix of them all.  These social relations are wholly dependent upon the social, material, and economic organization, or social arrangement of society.

This is in stark contrast to human behavior, with which human nature is often conflated in this context, and differs greatly based on the circumstances one is presented.  We behave differently based upon the situations we find ourselves in, but the behavior does not shape the social arrangement.  The social arrangement shapes the behavior.  In other words, a particular social arrangement gives rise to a particular form of state, which then incentivizes certain behaviors over others for its own benefit.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ BattyBatFirebrand

Man you really nailed that one 👍 couldn't agree more. People live in a society influenced by an economic system that prioritizes greed, selfishness and individualism, then extract from that that human beings are inherently greedy, selfish, and individualistic, when that couldn't be further from the truth.

BattyBatFirebrand

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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What's particular about American society is that Capitalism isn't just an economic system, but through compliments of Manifest Destiny is both ideology and identity to the American character. Long story short, America and Capitalism are seen as inseparable from each other. A critique of one is seen as criticism of the other and any such criticism is internalized as a threat, foreign, evil, and/or culturally incompatible.

I find it quite peculiar, this ideology that stems from a country founded by slave owners who wanted to be free. Free to do what and to whom, I ask?

Pink

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ BattyBatFirebrand

bro holy shit
its so rare to see someone who knows their shit in a place like this, keep it up man, love to see it!

BattyBatFirebrand

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	What makes capitalism better? Capitalism brings us abundance by providing work, generating income for the state with which you will later be paid a pension when you retire.

Work is provided based upon what socially necessary labor is required in a particular society at a particular time (ie. the value that workers bring to the table is the sole reason why companies exist. No workers, no company). Pensions have gone away and were replaced with the 401k, shifting the burden and risk of retirement entirely on the individual. With a pension the employer assumed some of the risk, assisting the employee to ease into retirement; this was the incentive for staying at one company for your entire career if you were lucky enough to do so.

"	You can buy whatever you want without being regulated by the government

In the United States, the government can and does regulate goods you can purchase. If you are a U.S. citizen and take a trip outside of the United states, U.S. Customs and Border Protection has a list of items that are prohibited and restricted. Prohibited items are forbidden by law from entering the United States. As you can see, you can't, in fact, buy whatever you want without being regulated by the government.

"	you can own your assets without the state seizing your property.

In the US, the state can and will seize your property in payment of a debt, from a resulting judgement in court, if the property is used to commit crimes, or through Eminent Domain.

At the beginning of the 20th century, capitalism was responsible for lifting practically the entire planet out of poverty with the industrial revolution. While communism is the system for lazy people who want everything for free without working, they think that everything is solved if the state prints free money, because they don't know about inflation.

This is conjecture. All of it. If you're going to make claims, the ownership is on you to back it up with evidence.

RobbieWallace

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ BattyBatFirebrand

I wanted to stop discussing this but here we go again.
The communist argument is based on the fact that we are all equally mediocre and poor...
Do you really want the CEO of a company to earn the same money as the employee who mops the floor? No matter how unfair it may sound, The one who has prepared better, the one who has surpassed himself and studied for years should earn more than the lazy conformist who does nothing to get out of poverty.
Regarding the state can take your house, it is obvious that if you do not pay, I was referring to the fact that you can be the owner when you finish paying for it. Pay your taxes and one day you will look back with pride on a heritage that no one can take away from you. Unfortunately in communist China and the Soviet Union the regime felt it had the right to take away everything you produced, You never owned anything, which is why 80 million people died of hunger at that time.
I understand that no system will be perfect, but if "system a" allows you to own your assets and grow economically to the point of even creating a large company, and "system b" will steal everything from you with the excuse that you have to share with the useless one, well, I prefer system A

BattyBatFirebrand

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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You wanted to stop discussing this, but here we go again on our own... going down the only road we've ever known. The communist argument is not that we are all mediocre and poor; that is your personally held belief. You asked an actual communist to explain their ideology to you and why it is a viable option for the future and they did so, note for note. You bounced back with misleading statements and conjecture. Now you double down with even more conjecture while pushing back with, "The rich are smart and deserving of their wealth while the poor are lazy and deserving of their lot" noise.

Ask a Socialist what's wrong with Capitalism, they'll give you a list. Ask a Capitalist what's wrong with Socialism and they'll just describe Capitalism.

Every. Single. Time.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I appreciate that your remaining open minded about these sorts of things though communism has never worked on a large scale especially not  soviet style communism like you seem to Meme? about so often.

the problem inherently, is not even with the system. Captalism either both could be near perfect systems, the problem is people...

Human beings are somewhat predisposed to fucking things up. We are easy to corrupt, will gladly do it to ourselves. Communism fails as a system because in order for it to work the "state" must control things to ensure fairness  eventually the state and it's servents politicians ect, just become the new noble class...this happens in every single communist's regime. In order for the system to function it also requires the government to be more totalitarian in it's approach, now maybe they don't need to be Stalinist Russia Totalitarian but Communist regimes universally end up with strict laws against speaking out against the state for example.

The inherent flaws in the system work to well with the inherent flaws in the human condition.

It works on a micro or a small scale, most house holds are run in a way thats honestly rather communist, your not charging your kids for access to the internet or for the food you provide for them, a house hold is a decent example of communism functioning on a micro scale. it works because of your morality and your familiy sense of duty. It works becouse of love...

now you can scale that up to a GROUP of people who all have closely aligned like minded belifes a commune for example but you ultimately start to see the cracks even there, there parasites who don't pull there waight people don't mesh well with the structure or disagree with the distribution of resources ect once it gets to a national level  it requires to much force to make it work and ivnites to much corruption.

Capitalism is no fucking  perfect golden child either, especially late stage capitalism if it's allowed to get that far can be deeply exploitative. but the balancing factors it has such as the free market, and it's profit based incentive requiring it to be balanced to some extent by the good of the consumer or you will run OUT of consumers, means that while capitalism may very likely, FAIL it wont do so right away or even for quite  a long time...I hope we find a more efficient way but capitalism works even if not well, because it takes the parts of human nature communism doesn't work well with and plays nicer with them...at least for a time

Perhaps you will indulge my curiosity to explain WHY you favor communism as a system so strongly? I don't see what you see in it, clearly, I find the idea of MORE government then I already have appalling and the fact I would never be allowed to own land or any form of capital to be a major infringement on the freedom I've come to enjoy as an American.

why does given the State, wich will be run by a group of elites making up a political party. so much power over both the Force used to run a nation and control over its well being and the flow of it's capital as opposed to private citizens any different from a monarch passing that right down via blood lines? You've seen how WELL the CCP has run things, the blatant corruption the atrocities the war crimes...and please dont tell me you think Stalin's Russia was some kind of paradise? XD

im legit curious break down your version of communism for me if you dont mind.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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So i've been rereading this comment for the past few hours trying to understand your points as best as i could, and i've come away with a few observations.
You clearly dont know what communism is if you think households are an example of communism on a micro scale. Could you please explain to me your understanding of communism and what it is? because as someone who's read a lot of communist theory, your understanding does not line up with what I have read from actual communist thinkers.

Instead of responding to you point by point, i want to ask some clarifying questions:
1, What is communism? What are its goals? What diferentiates it from capitalism?
2, on "authoritarianism" and "totalitarianism", why do you think these came about? Is it due to internal problems with communist ideology or is it due to external factors, ie. capitalist militaristic response to communist states (for example the 13 nation coalition that invaded soviet russia during the russian civil war)
3, Have you read any communist theory? Ie, Capital, Imperialism, Principles of Socialism, State and Revolution, Anti-Duhring, Dialectical and Historical Materialism? (No, the manifesto does not count as theory)
4, Do you agree with the idea that capitalism tends towards monopoly? That is to say, that due to the logic of capitalism and free market competition, that monopolies will eventually form?

As to why I favor communism as a system so strongly, the primary reason is because it represents the first time in all of class society that the ruling class is also the majority class, thus making it the most democratic system we could possibly have. Having a system that is run by autocratic kings sucked, so we replaced them with capitalists. We realized this system sucked too and we seek to replace it with Communism, a system run by the working class who form most of the population.

Communist society would put the majorty of society at the helm rather than letting us be dragged along by the minorty for their own benefit, abused and exploited along the way. By no means do i think it will be perfect or a utopia, it will have flaws and it will eventually be replaced with another system when we've outgrown it, much like feudalism.

Agree with me about communism or not, the very least I recommend you doing is reading Capital by Marx if you haven't already. It will give you a more well rounded understanding of the communist critique of capitalism, and you'll be able to understand the points and positions much easier.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Im sorry i wish i could have done this better but the character limit stopped me. from going to in depth. I do love you, just not this ideology.

"	Could you please explain to me your understanding of communism and what it is?

Each According to there need...the core of the communist belief structure. You don't feed a child because they are entitled to be fed or because the child gives you something in return for it, you do so because you love the child, because it is the right thing to do, and because you have a responsibility to do so, as there parent, one you took one when you had the child.

this is, when you cut away all the Philosophical revolutionary and Comrade meme talk, the core behind communisms argument...that it is the moral way to do things, that you should ensure that people have there basic needs looked to, that by virtue of existence, they should have access by default to everything they need, even if it means taking something from somebody else to ensure that goal. to that end communism attempts to ensure that the people control the means of production and hold the keys to there own well being..which is great on paper but doesn't work in reality. it requires the party to either steel property and wealth from the affluent, ill gotten or otherwise, or from the poor in the form of compelled labor. I don't think i need to point out what Stallin did to the the Kulocks? Or the times he forced people to work.
It wont work on a macro scale without the application of force and that requires a totalitarian regime.

Why?

Indavidualism! Because I don't give a shit about you...I mean "I" personally "DO" care about "YOU" I may not know you WELL but if i saw you with a flat on the side of the road I would very likely Stop the car and help you...this is why this mentality works with family and small groups of friends or like minded individuals but not on a grander scale.

why should I give up the sweet of my brow for people I don't know and who don't care about me? why should I have less comfort, less food, less time? Must i give money to every person on the side of the road with a cardboard sign? even when I know that wont help them? the only way it WORKS is if I am forced to! If my factory or my farm is Seized by the state for the good of "the people" and by "the people" they mean the party.

"	1, What is communism? What are its goals? What diferentiates it from capitalism?

feel like i gave the core of the movement explanation above also what a system CLAIMS it is and what it DOES are often not the same. that to address what differtiates it from capitalism I will say, Capitalism incentivizes private property and Profit Acquisition as a means to increase ones financial standing, Economic mobility in another words. to grossly over simply it. Communism Insists on the redistribution of wealth and resources to ensure everybody has an equal share of the pie...but thats not nessasaraly a FAIR share...while I agree in a world like ours seeing such huge disparity of wealth is aggravating, I dont see communism as a Moral way of dealing with it. Or even a Functional one.

"	2, on "authoritarianism" and "totalitarianism", why do you think these came about? Is it due to internal problems with communist ideology or is it due to external factors.

it is not a fault of the ideology directly, it is a consequence of necessity, it only WORKS if you force people to do it. it is an ugly reality of humanity. I am a farmer... I own this land I work this land, I grow these crops, I Sell these crops...that is how I make my liveing and ensure my livelihood. then the state comes along and tells me the state OWNS my field and my crops but I still need to work the field...and your going to tell me how much i can sell the crops for. they do this so people will not starve...but it is still theft.

Compelled charity is not Virtuous.

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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When you quote the from "each according to his ability" why do you leave out the other part of the quote? its, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" ie contribute what you can to society and take from it what you need.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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because I am limited on charactersand i assume the COMMUNIST knows the whole quote? so i just used the bit that was the core of my example of the home as Microcosm for successful communism?

Also Each acording to his ability implies if I am a genious I should BE a genious for the party and expect to reap the exact same rewords as the guy cutting wood...sorry but that destroys the incentive structure to work harder.

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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>because I am limited on charactersand i assume the COMMUNIST knows the whole quote? so i just used the bit that was the core of my example of the home as Microcosm for successful communism?

It really isn't tho, at least the analogy doesn't work. In a family system the parents own the home and dictate law, which directly contradicts collective ownership and the parents (bourgeois I guess) domineer over the children (proletariat?), both of these run in direct contradiction to communist thought. It's not a good analogy

>Also Each acording to his ability implies if I am a genious I should BE a genious for the party

For the party? No, its for society as a whole, just to clarify.

>and expect to reap the exact same rewords as the guy cutting wood...sorry but that destroys the incentive structure to work harder.

Can you explain how? People don't just do good/hard work because it benefits them, and there are many examples of this such as the collective farms and communities of pre contact native societies. They were not perfect ideal societies of course, but they did operate under a primitive communist system and got plenty of hard work done.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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[iconname]In a family system the parents own the home and dictate law, which directly contradicts collective ownership and the parents (bourgeois I guess) domineer over the children (proletariat?), both of these run in direct contradiction to communist thought. It's not a good analogy [/iconname]

No in this analogy the parents who own everything and distribute things are the state. or did you forget both Stalin and mao lived in a fucking palace?

"	>Also Each acording to his ability implies if I am a genious I should BE a genious for the party For the party? No, its for society as a whole, just to clarify.

And im sorry to inform you that most people unless properly incentivized will not work any harder for somebody else then they HAVE to...now people working for themselves...thats another story. While this is POSSIBLE under communism the areas in wich it is possible are limited by the state owning all the property and controlling all the physical capital.

>and expect to reap the exact same rewords as the guy cutting wood...sorry but that destroys the incentive structure to work harder.

Can you explain how? People don't just do good/hard work because it benefits them, and there are many examples of this such as the collective farms and communities of pre contact native societies. They were not perfect ideal societies of course, but they did operate under a primitive communist system and got plenty of hard work done.

sure

the guy cutting wood is doing unskilled manual labour, the value of his labour is LESS then the guy who has to learn to weld! the guy doing all the welding, the value of his labour is LESS then the Doctor who goes to school for YEARS and invests in himself and his skill set so he can do what he does. He takes a risk, incures debt, and invests in himself, then if secsessful reaps the words of that debt.

the Doctor should not be living in an apartment, next to the guy who cuts wood,just because the guy who cuts wood works a lot of hours.

since you guys like to harpe about workers vs capital holders lets try this sinario.

WHY should a factory worker get all the profits from the factory?

that guy jsut runs a machine...If i own the factory Im actively incentivized to replace his ass with a machine...and just pay a guy to come in and matain the machine now and then...that josb on the way out but lets assume I want my fctory to have a more personal touch and so i create jobs by Investing in a work force.

YOu come in, you work 9 to 5 and for that you are compinsated by a wage that you agreed to when you got the job maybe you even negotiated on it, depending on the postion and your experiance, maybe you even have options for advancement and pay raises and medical.

I own the factory and I own the business I make all the important choices and decisions, I take all the RISK If the factory and the company go UNDER i LOSE all my capital and all my time and money invested INTO that but YOU the WORKER still keep all the money I paid you to stand there and push a button on that machine.

Under a Capitalist system if you want you can go out become an entrapanour and try to build your own business.

it is ludacris to assume the guy running the checkout counter is as importent to the operation of a Walmart store as the CEO of the company...

it is also ludacris to assume that in communism the "state" wont live in affluance. ANYBODY in the upper echalons of that government will live VERY well no matter how meny prols are starveing...

IM sorry but no...you can keep your maos and your stalins... I would much rather deal with the devil of capitalism then the grinding milstone of the communist state.

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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"No in this analogy the parents who own everything and distribute things are the state. or did you forget both Stalin and mao lived in a fucking palace?"

Ah, so not communism lmao. Stalin and mao were practitioners of state capitalism, which is seen as the first step in transitioning away from capitalism and moving towards socialism. Read lenin or Engles to get a really good understanding of this. Bit tldr in order to redistribute the means of production they must first be centralized into the hands of the proletariat state and slowly redistributed to the people. The soviets were actually making great progress before they were dissolved, China fell of the band wagon with Deng unfortunately

"And im sorry to inform you that most people unless properly incentivized will not work any harder for somebody else then they HAVE to...now people working for themselves...thats another story. While this is POSSIBLE under communism the areas in wich it is possible are limited by the state owning all the property and controlling all the physical capital."

Once again, what you are describing here is simply not communism, but it is the first step in moving towards it. Communists generally are not fans of state capitalism, but we believe it is necessary. You need a strong force (the state) to seize the means of production from the private hoarders and keep it out of their hands until the stage is set for the transition. This btw is why communist countries tend to be so militarisic, because they are routinely attacked by capitalist forces and need to safeguard the revolution. Every communist country has been invaded, infiltrated, and been economically attacked by the capitalist world order, they have never been allowed to develop peacefully and without interference

I will respond to the rest later, don't have the character count to do so

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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"the guy cutting wood is doing unskilled manual labour, the value of his labour is LESS then the guy who has to learn to weld! the guy doing all the welding, the value of his labour is LESS then the Doctor who goes to school for YEARS and invests in himself and his skill set so he can do what he does. He takes a risk, incures debt, and invests in himself, then if secsessful reaps the words of that debt."

Ha! You're essentially making the arguement for Marx's labor theory of value, you should really read Kapital. But yes no one would disagree with the above, some labor is worth more than others, but since we live in a society of surplus, why should not both these men get what they need?

"the Doctor should not be living in an apartment, next to the guy who cuts wood,just because the guy who cuts wood works a lot of hours."

No they should both be living in houses, which we have plenty of. If your argument was correct here, why do socialist counties produce the most doctors per capita?

"WHY should a factory worker get all the profits from the factory?"

This is simply a strawman, no one thinks 1 factory worked should get all the profits. And allow me to turn this around on you. Why should the owner, who simply owns the factory and does far less labor than the average worker, get all the profits? Why does he get to keep all the profits from the labor of other people?

that guy jsut runs a machine...If i own the factory Im actively incentivized to replace his ass with a machine...and just pay a guy to come in and matain the machine now and then...that josb on the way out but lets assume I want my fctory to have a more personal touch and so i create jobs by Investing in a work force.

YOu come in, you work 9 to 5 and for that you are compinsated by a wage that you agreed to when you got the job maybe you even negotiated on it, depending on the postion and your experiance, maybe you even have options for advancement and pay raises and medical.

Wages are not negotiated fairly, the worker is under the constant coercive threat or homelessness, starvation, or lack of medical care and will thus take wages below their worth to survive. By putting the factory into the hands of the worker, we aim to give people the full benefits their labor produces, instead of having it siphoned away by the parasitic capitalist class. Not only that but we also increase democracy by doing so, getting rid of the autocratic king like control over work places capitalists have. If democracy is the way we want go run entire countries, why not also the economy?

"I own the factory and I own the business I make all the important choices and decisions, I take all the RISK If the factory and the company go UNDER i LOSE all my capital and all my time and money invested INTO that but YOU the WORKER still keep all the money I paid you to stand there and push a button on that machine."

The worker takes on just as much if not more risk as the capitalist, the worker has bills to pay, and thus needs constant wages, he needs healthcare which in America is often provided through the work place. If the business goes under ther worker could be losing their lives through homelessness or inability to pay for Healthcare. Also, it's funny how you rail against authoritarianism, but are fine with a system where 1 person can execute dictatorial control over thr workplace

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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"Under a Capitalist system if you want you can go out become an entrapanour and try to build your own business."

This is very idealistic and does not often work like this irl. In order to start a business you need an initial investment of capital, something must people simply do not have access to. This is not even to mention that due to capitalisms instead tendency towards monopoly this window of opportunity shrinks with each generation. Aaaand there is a limited amount of capital in the world, which will eventually be taken over by capitalists, what do you do then?

"it is ludacris to assume the guy running the checkout counter is as importent to the operation of a Walmart store as the CEO of the company..."

Another strawman, no one said this or made this argument.

"it is also ludacris to assume that in communism the "state" wont live in affluance. ANYBODY in the upper echalons of that government will live VERY well no matter how meny prols are starveing..."

Yet another strawman, I never made this argument.

"IM sorry but no...you can keep your maos and your stalins... I would much rather deal with the devil of capitalism then the grinding milstone of the communist state."

You should really read theory. And as much as I don't think state capitalism is ideal, it is certainly preferable to current capitalism, as is evidenced by the massive rise in literacy rates, employment, education, and overall living standards that nearly every socialist state has been able to achieve. Centrally planned state run economies work, how else did Russia, a poor backwater of Europe which was invaded 3 separate times and devastated by war each time manage to catch up with and nearly out compete the united states in around 50 years?
Likewise with China

And so you have it, here's a very basic rundown of the timeline:
A revolution occurs and a workers state is established. This state seizes the means of production and implements a centrally planned economy. As this occurs classes start to evaporate since everyone is now a worker, as class fades so does the state (the tool by which one class oppressed another) once this occurs you have achieved socialism. Money is replaced with labor vouchers. Aa this mode od production becomes widespread and dominant, ans continues to decentralize surplus and profit can be spread across the society as a whole, allowing for thr vouchers to ve replaced with thr principle you quoted earlier, this is finally end goal communism.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Whoa there Comrade XD simmer down a little or your gonna reactivate Liberty Prime XD

Im.. not reply to all that.. but I did read it.

So I get were your trying to come from (as for the strawmans you mentioned, i was not aiming them at YOU but at arguments communism often makes as thats what were discussing)

I fail to see how this Disolves the class system? it just seems to remove economic mobility. Especcialy in the tranisition phase of state capitalism.

How is this supposed to interface with he rest of the world? or must the ideology by forced on the entire human race to work? I dont think the United states will accept payment for goods in Work Vouchers...or vice versa if the US in some universe tranisitions to this system.

Honestly I would prefer a system were the state had considerably less power over my private life then it already does, and yes that includes the current system.

Pink

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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"So I get were your trying to come from (as for the strawmans you mentioned, i was not aiming them at YOU but at arguments communism often makes as thats what were discussing)"

Those are still strawman as communists do not make those arguments. At least I've never seen a communist make such arguements.

"I fail to see how this Disolves the class system? it just seems to remove economic mobility. Especcialy in the tranisition phase of state capitalism."

Because classes can only exist in contrast with one another, and currently there are only 2 classes, the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. If you get rid of the bourgeoisie and force everyone into the same class, the distinction of class ceases to be a thing. Ie, proletariat are defined as those who sell their labor to the bourgeoisie in exchange for wages, if there is no bourgeoisie there can be no proletariat, thus class ceases to be a thing.

"How is this supposed to interface with he rest of the world? or must the ideology by forced on the entire human race to work? I dont think the United states will accept payment for goods in Work Vouchers...or vice versa if the US in some universe tranisitions to this system."

Yes, it would require an end to global capitalism, hence why no socialist country thus far has been able to advance to the socialist stage of development, they are unable to do so while capitalism is the dominant mode of production globally. This is also why certain countries like Vietnam had to introduce market reforms.

"Honestly I would prefer a system were the state had considerably less power over my private life then it already does, and yes that includes the current system."

So would I, but I also don't want corporations and monopolies to be given that control in exchange. I want thr people tp actually be in charge of the state, to live in a truly democratic society instead of the farce we currently live under. This is not possible while capitalism is dominant, so I advocate for an end to the system

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

it would be an interesting exparament to see how this works on a larger scale

its NEVER going to happen on a national scale in reality BUT with the advancement of AI and Computers...

Well it might be possible to run an science exparament similure to a Biodom were you run simulations or even set up a "communist state" everybody agrees to live in for a piriod of say 10 years? or so...who knows might yeild some interesting data...

personally Im uncomfortable with an ideology that requires global conformity to work...serenely one that I fear would be unable to achive it's goals without violance. I dont Dismiss communism out of hand beocuse "RED BAD!" but I can see the argument from the perspective of the people who OWN Capital as well...were I in there shoues I would not be keep to have something that is mine taken by force. Im afraid I like wealth as a concept...and so long as we do not live in a Post Scarcity world, I dont think will ever escape that....and were a long ways off from haveing replicators im afraid.

As for the deconstruction of the class system the Proletariat and the bourgeoisie (Fuck you guys need to come up with better names for those DX if anything capitalism has you beat on it's branding!) are literaly just the haves and the have nots...and you will ALLWAYS have people with more then others and people who want more then they have. Not sure if communism can solve this other then to give me a bare minimum of what i need and tell me to be happy with it. Maybe it can! but will need BETTER examples... Communists keep siteing how great it can be and then when people point out were it's failed in the past say it's not real communism...

OK i'll bite...

But you guys need to find ways to create solid data thats REAL communism not just theory preferably models that don't involve Theft or violent transition REALLY DISPISE state capitalism...that's gonna be a hard hurdle to get me or most other people over im afraid.

Your biggist hurdle by FAR will be convinceing the Entire world to switch to a communist model as the best way forword...beocuse capitalism does not require the entire world to be capitalist, it's has arisen naturally out of the way the world works, as Nations grew and interfaced with one another echonimicly. the base roots of capitalism go all the way back to barter and trade systems...

Communism I would argue is not inside human nature... this does not make it impossible but it does mean were not likely to gravitate twords it naturally you have a very hard sell to make to get the whole world to buy it...unless you intent is forced conversion.

Failure to secede there will probably destroy any chance communism will ever have. As people will just look back on that time the Reds tried to take over the whole world and our glorious capitalist freedom loving forefathers beat them back! History is written by the victors and all that.

Pink

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

I guess I should have clarified more, so I will now before I make a more detailed response

I wasn't trying to make the, "it's not real communism argument" when I brought up state capitalism and explained it. I think that argument is stupid to make when state capitalism is a prescribed solution communists have come up with tp transition away from capitalism. Instead, I was responding to your critique, you essentially called communists hypocritical for building countries that did not adhere to the, "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" principle. This critique does not male sense as that principle is only supposed to govern society in higher stage or end goal communism, not during the state capitalist phase, so it's not hypocritical, you were mixing up steps 1 and 3 in the transition.

Communists do not actually want the state to ve kept around, we strongly dislike it as it exists solely as a tool of oppression, but if you read theory you'd know we also don't think you can just get rid of the state immediately, it has to stay until the threat of counter revolution has vanished. State and Revolution by Vladimir Lenin is by far the best explanation of this idea you'll find. Please read theory, ans I say read theory because pretty much every point you've made thus far has already been responded to in works of theory, all I can do is poorly rehash the arguments of people far smarter then me, the explanations and arguments given in theory are far more in depth than I could ever get in an inkbunny comment section.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Thank you for the clarification. We do agree on the point of the state being a nessasary evil it seems. Thanks for taking the time to try to go into more detail, im well aware the character limit can make this kind of talk...difficult.

BattyBatFirebrand

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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"From each according to his ability to each according to his need," means you get out of society what you put into it. As for you being a genius (whatever that means) and being rewarded the same as someone who is cutting wood, that's a misconception. Being a genius (whatever that means) and cutting wood are clearly not the same, and so they wouldn't be rewarded the same.

As for that being the thing that destroys the incentive to work harder, then what is being incentivized needs to be clearly and objectively defined, as does the concept of hard work.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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So, after reading this a few times, this is what i’ve come away with:
You do not understand the communist critique of capitalism, which is an essential part of communist ideology. This is why i said before that you should read Capital by Marx to better understand the arguments he lays out, and how capitalism generally operates.

The communist critique is, in short, that capitalism as a development of feudalism simplifies class structure to two primary classes: the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, the owning class and the working class. The proletariat by definition do not own the means of production and are forced to sell their labor power to the bourgeois class. The bourgeois class does not pay the proletariat the full value of their labor and they extract the surplus labor value as profit. This is called exploitation of labor. A good way to think about it is “you get paid to work for 8 hours, but you do not get paid for 8 hours worth of work.”

Because of this, there is a fundamental contradiction between the classes in capitalism. The bourgeoisie want to extract as much surplus labor value as possible from the workers, while the workers want to work as little as possible for the most wages. Because classes act in their own interest, and the bourgeoisie have the power and resources to control the workers, they nearly always win out in this contradiction and suppress the proletariat.

When class antagonisms sharpen, the contradictions come more into focus and a revolution becomes possible. Marx does not argue that communism is more moral than capitalism in his primary thesis (please show me where he does if you think so) but that capitalism, much like feudalism, is doomed to collapse under the weight of class antagonism. Marx believes that it is in the self interest of the working class to take over the capitalist system, establish a workers state, and build communism to endure their class benefits the most from the economy, as opposed to the bourgeoisie.

This is why your analogy for the household doesn’t work, it contains no essence of the communist critique of capitalism and is in no way analogous to the family model, which is not classless but hierarchical, things not distributed on need but dictated by the parents, the ruling class. Reducing the core of communism to half of a slogan Marx wrote near the end of his life, completely ignoring all the other work he did, is just halfassed laziness and an intentional misreading of communist theory and philosophy.

“why should i give up the sweat of my brow for people i don’t know and who don’t care about me? why should i have less comfort, less food, less time?”
These are all very good critiques of capitalist exploitation, the extraction of surplus labor value from the work you do that is funneled directly to the capitalist who does none of that labor. Capitalists dont care about you, they care about how much money you make for them. They make your life uncomfortable by paying you as little as they can, you miss out on time with friends and family because you have to work 8 hours a day producing meaningless commodities for the profit of someone else.

You can try to pretend like the “comrade meme talk” is meaningless, but that shows you have no interest in a good faith conversation, no genuine intent on understanding my position, and are just arguing ideologically with no perspective on the other’s position. I’ve given your views charitable reads, tried to understand them from your perspective, and pointed you to resources to expand your understanding on my position. Whether or not you do so it up to you. You don’t have to agree with Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, whoever. I just ask that you understand their positions well enough that any communist would have to agree with how you describe communism, that’s how you have a productive conversation.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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As for the communist meme remark.. you.. DO meme XD this journal HAS an art meme on it about communism complete with all the USSR trappings XD

I don want to thank you though for approching this is as non adversarial a way as possible, though I would Cuation you away from telling everybody who has a Disagreement with you that they need to "read the literature" so to speak, not beocuse it's a bad idea to do so for either party involved but because the majority of people who have READ all that allready likely agree with communism and the rest are otherwise unlikely to argue differently for haveing read it. To that end though thank you for giveing a short summery and setting apart a differance between state capitalism and communism.

Personaly.. While I agree to some extent that in a more ideal world communism as your laying it out may actualy work.. Im not sure im comfortable getting there...state capitalism at least to me, is EVERYTHING i hate about capitalism mixed together with an even MORE over powered version of the state, wich I also do not trust.

SO for me State capitalism is the worst sinario...does that make sence? how do we garantee peoples freedoms in this new regime? Stalin and Mao Forced people to work...granted in your example thats "not real commnnism" ok..sure..lets say Stalin and mao were ass holes and lets move past them and we have achived the communist Ideal!

How do we handle the fact that communism will have set prices? thats not gonna work very well in the long run..or does this model allow for a system were that somehow works? becouse takeing into example the farmers from before... f i want to sell produce and do well I can try to undercut my compition this will dirve some out of the markler but those who can compete will stay and that compition will dirve down the overall cost of some of the produce, while still allowing those with a clearly prefered or supirior product to charge a bit more for it without being pushed out of the market, if the state tells me an apple is 2 work vouchers or whatever they end up useing, and thats that... then the more farmers selling apples the less there going to Do well...menaing less farmers will bother being farmers... this is over simplified but it's why the USSR had such a bad food issue during that time piriod.

I donno man... It's not that I have no intention of seeing eye to eye with you, it's just I dont see how this system will work in a way to benafits me or even the people in general...and in order to enjoyt his system I would have to allow for an even more controlling state then the one I allready live under.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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“...when you cut away all the philosophical revolutionary and comrade meme talk, the core behind communisms argument… that it is the moral way to do things”
You are very clearly NOT talking about the “meme” i’m doing by creating a propaganda piece, but communist theory itself. You’re talking about the core argument behind communism, which you believe is a moral argument. This is in no way interpetable as meaning the picture i created, that was not what we were talking about, that’s not what you meant, that’s not what i meant.

If you want to argue against something, you ought to know what it is youre arguing against. The best way you can understand communist theory is to read it and critically engage with it. If you dont want to do that, that’s on you. Reading a book isn’t going to kill you, nor are you guaranteed to agree with everything in it. I welcome disagreement, i love to see where people disagree and finding the answer together. If you’re unwilling to even engage in a little reading, then you’re stopping this discussion in its tracks by being wilfully ignorant.

You can’t argue religion with a christian if you havent read the bible, you can’t argue quantum mechanics with a scientist if you havent studied quantum physics, and you can’t argue about communism with a marxist if you dont read what Marx said.

I also never set apart a difference between communism and state capitalism, did you read anything i wrote? I never even mentioned state capitalism…

If you want to engage with people on this topic and sound halfway like you know what you’re talking about, you need to read. I can explain everything to you if you like, but reading it first hand will let you absorb it yourself and critique it directly. I’ve pointed you to resources and i’ll do it again. All of these are availble for free on the marxist internet archive:

Value, Price and Profit, Marx
Capital Vol 1, Marx
Principles of Socialism, Engels
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Engels
Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism, Lenin
State and Revolution, Lenin
Dialectical and Historical Materialism, Stalin
Oppose book worship, Mao

I will not be responding to you after this unless you’re actually willing to engage in good faith. I’m not going to keep giving you the courtesy of reading what you said multiple times, thinking about it for hours and formulating a well thought out response if you wont do the same for me. Mutual respect goes a long way.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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it's not that I'm attempting to disrespect you or your arguments, But I have very little interest in the ideology beyound that I dont feel it works and it makes me uncomfortable that it requires everybody to conform to it in order for it to work. I don't see reading 8 separate books as I assume a STARTER on your ideology as even remotely reasonable I can Discuss Science without holding an astrophysics degree. You can talk about religion without reading the bible or the Quran. I have eyes and history books.

Your ideology has not gone well in the past, the world for the most part, does not like it, so this is CLEARLY fat cat capitalists in the wests doing! You claim the west is a horrible place but here I am, with food, a place to live, internet, video games and spending cash, health care and a job and while i cant say i want for nothing, or that things could not be better, Im sorry I just don't see my situation improved under communism as right now I enjoy more wealth by comparison then I ever would have under any of the regimes commonly attributed to as communist especially not in the past.

In point of fact if your revaluation came to my door tomorrow and told me I needed to get ON the train or get UNDER it you would not have a very polite response. As I think most people will resist something that threatens them, there way of live, or there comfort.

Now I tend to find Economics and Philosophy both rather fascinating, so I just might read one or more of the recommended books, I'll be sure to pirate them as I know you wouldn't want there sale to contribute to the capitalist machine =p but you guys need to engage better, claiming I'm auguring in bad faith because I have not come equipped with a educated communists level of Investment in YOUR ideology is not going to win you an ally. I have presented my arguments based on my understanding of your ideology.

My perspective is the perspective of the average person outside of communism. If this perspective is correct, then your fill of shit and deluded and that's why your movement fails.. if this perspective is Incorrect, then the mission before you is to Assuage the fears of the individuals bringing up there points and questions, THEN direct them to read more if you have piqued there curiosity!

Your never going to beat the capitalists elsewise.

Instead of "You don't know what your talking about" say "you know I get it! that would bother me a lot too! but it's actually a misconception! we don't want to steal your stuff, here's a simple break down of how this works...if you think this is interesting, these books do a WAY better job of explaining things in greater detail!"

Or if you run into resistance, try saying "I'm sorry we dont agree on this stuff, but maybe im just not explaining things in the best way. if your ever curious have a read on this book, ((Suggest one here that's digestible to somebody not deeply entrenched in your ideology)) then if you have questions hit me up?"

sounds like your being to nice? and your are! that's the point. See if you piss off the people your discussing things with or insult there intelligence, they will stone wall you and your ideas. They will continue to fight you untill they feel like they "won" or they will stamp off irritated and decide your not worth there time or consideration. If you leave the door open, they might not engage. But they might think about it more...there perceptions may soften and shift, they may do more research on there own...

hearts and minds first, glorious peoples revalution after.

I DO believe your attempting in engage with me in good faith, wich is why I mentioned the suggestions above... just keep in mind what I said about coming off as abrasive to that end I will try to remain open minded about your reading suggestions. Im not reading all that stuff unless it pulls me in.

just don't ask me to be ok with Che Guevara that guy was a prick =p and i'll at least reread the manafesto for starters.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Jsyk, I did block you because of how insufferable you were in this conversation, but after about 10 minutes I calmed down and unblocked you. I won't be engaging with you any further but feel free to keep chatting it up with everyone else

Pink

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Please do not reread the manifesto, you'll get nothing out of it and it's not actual theory. The vast majority of thr works poke suggested are not books, they are like 15 pages essays, it's not that much reading.

The manifesto is just a political pamphlet, it'd be like trying to get an understanding of Christianity through a chick tract

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Fair anology XD it was intended as a joke, and becouse mostly when people outside this movement think of communism the manifestos not far behind in there that process. But your right there's not much value in rereading it at present.

ConoStudios

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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man's typing a whole ass bible in Yappinology

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ ConoStudios

hey.. at least the two of us are haveing a civil discussion. that's more then i can say for a lot of other people on similar topics. XD

knotme

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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i think the millions of dead Russians, Chinese, and North Koreans and people trying to flee those countries with communism would say otherwise.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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The millions dead per year at the hands of capitalist imperialism and neglect would like a word

knotme

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Really name exactly where these millions are from

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Palestine, Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Bangledesh, Guatemala, Nicaragua, India, I can keep going if you want

This didn't even include all the native groups genocided by the united states, the Slavs killed by the Nazis in WW2, the millions of Africans killed by African colonialization, the countless Chinese killed by Japanese imperialism, I can keep going if you want

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

deaths caused by communism
65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Ethiopia
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Eastern Bloc
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Source: crack pipe

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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good come back.
insults when you cant actually dispute what i said
always the same with people whinging about capitalism while benefiting from it and its protections.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Sorry, but capitalism kills more people in 10 years than communism has ever killed. 9 million dead a year from starvation¹, 4 million from preventable diseases², 3 million to work related deaths³, 18 million per year to structural violence⁴. That totals 34 million per year, excluding wars started by capitalist countries.

Now let's be charitable and assume those figures are twice as high as they should be. That's still 17 million deaths caused by capitalism per year. That matches communism's supposed 100 million death toll (over 70 years mind you) in just 6 years, at best. At worst, it matches the death toll of communism in 3 years.

How are these deaths caused by capitalism you may ask? Let's break it down:

Starvation and preventable disease: these are caused by supply chain and distribution issues. Capitalism does not distribute goods based on need, but based on profitability. Goods flow towards the money, and if you can't pay you can't get the goods. We produce enough food to feed the entire planet, but our economic system stops the distribution of the surplus because it isn't profitable to give away food to poor, starving people. The same applies to vaccines for preventable illnesses, companies profit from vaccine production and patent laws, so they prevent the distribution of free vaccines to where they're needed.

Structural violence: this is things like poverty, homelessness, lack of access to healthcare, etc. these are symptoms of capitalism and even socialist countries like the USSR figured out housing, healthcare, guaranteed employment, and other social services for it's citizens. Capitalist countries don't do this because it isn't profitable to provide things for free. You don't make money on Universal healthcare or public housing, so instead you get landlords and private insurance and high medical bills, which is a barrier to people who need these services, and they end up dead because of it.

Workplace deaths: this is very simple, capitalist countries are not run by the workers, they are run by the rich owning class. Workers rights have to be fought for by the workers and upheld by the state. The poor working conditions in the third world, including "communist" china are appalling, resembling the industrial revolution in England. A communist state run by the workers would inherently want to have as many protections for workers as possible, because it's the best interest of the ruling class. While they wouldn't be perfect, far from it, you would not be working in sweatshop conditions under communism because there is no need to.

All of this assumes the 100 million death toll is accurate, which comes from the "Black Book of Communism". The figures in this book have been shown numerous times to be inaccurate. It includes the Nazis killed on the eastern front, uncharitable estimates from famines, "deaths" caused by a lower birth rate, and even pulls deaths out of thin air to hit the 100 million figure. A few of the authors who worked on the book have also denounced it as inaccurate.

¹ https://www.wfp.org/news/world-wealth-9-million-people-...
² https://www.cdc.gov/global-immunization/fast-facts/inde...
³ https://www.ilo.org/resource/news/nearly-3-million-peop...
⁴ https://www.jstor.org/stable/423311

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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and yet every time communism takes over a country the whole country turns to shit
capitalism improves the lives of more people than communism ever has or will

but i suppose if you were the leader of a successful communist takeover you would be different to all the other people

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Nice job completely ignoring the arguments I made. Isn't that what you accused me of doing earlier? I'm willing to accept all the numbers you gave at face value for the sake of argument. If you're able to refute the argument I made that capitalism is FAR deadlier than communism, I would love to hear it.

Even by your own logic, communism wins out as the better system

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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history refutes your argument,
and as for the deaths 'caused by capitalism' should we take over places and businesses and force people to give up what is theirs? or give people everything without having to work for it?
unless you want a government to tell you how to live fuck communism
and if your country allows explotation take it up with your shit government
ill live in a nice society where i can eat thanks

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

explain HOW history refutes my argument instead of just claiming it does.

When anticoms are presented with inconvenient truths, they deny deny deny. Communism is not when you starve, that's capitalism. 9 million people starve to death per year under capitalism, remember? That means in 11 years the same amount of people die due to capitalism that you claim died under communism in 70 years. 11 years is a lot shorter than 70 my friend.

Why don't you explain to me how killing people 6 times faster than communism with starvation alone is somehow better?

I also love this meme that communist countries were always perpetually hungry and starving when that's what happens under capitalism. The famines these countries are infamous for happened very early in their history (as a direct consequence of the rapid collectivization of farming, rapid industrialization, disruption of the ecosphere, extreme periods of drought, collapse of trade, sanction and blockade by capitalist countries) and they were also the last famine these countries experienced under a communist government.
China had extremely frequent famines all throughout its history, and after the tragedy of the great leap forward, that cycle of famine ended. You would know this if you actually studied history instead of regurgitating anticommunist arguments that have no basis in reality.

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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please tell me exactly how its the fault of capitalist countries that people overseas starve.
you are so captured and delusional, not surprising since you live in a safe country.
if you looked at speakers such as Jordan Peterson or just anyone you didn't agree with you might realize how stupid you are being, alas i doubt you will. you will rave and rave about about how great communism is but never go live in a country under it. with excuses about how those arn't true communist. its sad really but ultimately you'll grow up

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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I already explained to you how this is related to capitalism, you didn't read it or engage with it.

Capitalism is a global system, it doesn't just exist in America or the west. All those starving African and Asian countries that top the starvation chart are capitalist.

I have watched jordan Peterson talk about communism (because I actually engage with opinions I disagree with). Jordan Peterson doesn't understand communism either, in his debate with Zizek he said he skimmed the communist manifesto, which is not communist theory, and he demonstrates he doesn't understand what communism is, even as a theory.

I would HAPPILY move to Cuba or Vietnam, pay for my plane ticket please. Don't just sit there and make shit up about me.

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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plane tickets are not that expensive maybe get a real job and some responsibility then you can move to your communist heaven where they sensor everything and live "free"

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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"good come back.
insults when you cant actually dispute what i said"

this really speaks for itself lmfao

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

lockedlink

oh yes the ussr was SO MAGNIFICENT thats why it failed and all those people starved

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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a lot of estimates also the starvation link did not specify were this was happening, and shit countries not providing for their own people is not up to us or our problem.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Which is why I said you can cut those estimates in half and it still makes capitalism look terrible in comparison

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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if its so terrible why is it the most successful oh that's because it actually works better than communism

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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yeah totally, it's definitely not the fact that it murders people en mass to keep itself alive

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Right and all of those farmers and people shove into gulags to die was different and totally justified I mean seriously talked blinders on

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

What even is the argument? "Communism killed people/had prisons/had forced labor/had famines, therefore communism bad"?

All the same criticisms apply to capitalism but far worse. The United States still has legal slavery, dude, and has the world's largest prison population as a direct consequence.

And when did I say it was ever justified? Please show me where

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Then what's your point . Communism good but never worked anywhere. Please tell me where it has worked without blaming capitalism that it didn't work. If it can't thrive with or against capitalism then it's too weak a system to survive long anyway

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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"please tell me why communism didn't work (in Europe, it still exists in other countries) without using history"
Absolute sophistry, ignoring history so you can try to score a point? How dishonest can you be?

The point I'm making is not "what about america??? What about capitalism??", it's that you're logically inconsistent if you don't apply the same logic you do for communism to capitalism. And when you do apply that logic, capitalism looks FAR worse in comparison.

Nothing is perfect, especially not man made economic systems, but I'd rather take the one that kills 1.5 million people a year than the one that kills (at best) 34 million per year (excluding capitalist wars)

You also love to ignore any counterargument I make and instead pivot to other talking points when they don't pan out in your favor. That shows me you literally cannot argue against anything I say here. And if you can, why don't you? Why do you dishonestly drop topics and try to change the subject so much? Lmfao

knotme

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Because I don't really care about the dead poor people in Africa or whatever place your pulling your numbers from and it been fun poking at you

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

lockedlink

Finally the mask comes off. Fuck off then, coward.

JacToo2

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I'd like to say that these could be a case by case sort of thing. Those fleeing could simply have died due to age while fleeing, or got injured, leading to infection then death.

where as in the capitalist aspect - this is usually tied to how the people don't hold the government in check. In the states there's a lot of aid for "non-documented immigrant" (a.k.a. "illegals") but they don't aid their own veterans of military service that truly need it. The reason? it's likely tied to some means of control and/or money gain.

The Obama administration's health reform did nothing as it didn't address the issues - networking should have been abolished [insurance should be applied equally no matter where you were in the states], health service cap offs should have been created [FTC states the government cannot dictate set pricing but this "loop hole" would basically state that the government is setting a cap, the individual "businesses" could charge lower and thus push the consumer to shop around], hefty percentage based fines for corporations, per individual employee, that fail to offer health insurance(s) no matter the employee's worked hours [it's common that an employee is expected to work a minimum to qualify, by "incentive of not getting a hefty fine" the corporation would end up offering no matter the few hours worked by the employee]

Socialism, akin to communism in ways, has created issues in the health care system - Britain had to create an incentive for people to study to become doctors and/or nurses just to get people to continue into that job field [from my understanding the government created a loan / reimbursement program that was granted to the individual after 6(?) years of practice in those fields after graduating their studies] and also in other fields depending on the country/etc.

Like I pointed out in my own posting, that Pink was responding too, the big issues are generally tied to the people put in charge and the people who just want to be lazy. Communism won't work if the people don't do their share, granted in older civilizations that usually meant the "lazy" person was shunned, kicked out, starved, etc. - depending on the cultural society norms.

Capitalism doesn't work due to the lack of restrictions [namely that the workers should be getting at least half of the pie as a whole versus the CEO that just sits in meetings, making decisions off data given to them, and usually being driven by greed. This has lead to "unions" which fight for the workers' needs, etc.]

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ JacToo2

If you can pin the deaths of people in communist countries at the hands of the state, either directly or indirectly, and say that was due to communism, the same equally applies to capitalism and capitalist states.

If you want to apply the logic consistenly, the Irish potato famine was the fault of capitalism, the Bengali famine, the neglect of homeless people, people not receiving adequate nutrition or health care services, people being denied vaccines because they either can't afford it or because of supply chain issues or patent laws, poor working conditions that end up killing people, deaths caused by products of capitalism like cars and planes, imperialist wars over resources, colonialism, the Palestinian genocide

These are all the fault of capitalism if you apply the logic anti-coms do to communist states, and I think capitalists would heavily disagree with what I said.

So my question is, what's the point of the argument that "communism killed 100 million people"? Is it to say, because of the deaths at the hands of communist regimes, the ideology is to blame and it should be discarded? Because if so, the same applies just the same to capitalism, and even worse so because capitalism kills more people over the same amount of time, millions per year.

JacToo2

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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that is true, both sides of the coin cause death for likely the same reason - the people in charge. People fleeing from communism are likely fleeing a dictatorship that took over a communist regime [again, my initial point of the problems being people in power].

tbh, I think the fear is tied to propaganda from powers of a country painting a bad image from a small batch. We already know that history is always warped and one must look to several sources to get the true picture [however much can be found that is].

Capitalism fails as it caters to the elite, screwing over the workers; communism fails due to the workers given up power to the government/leadership which goes corrupt. I think that communism is hard to follow in a big group scenario due to this - it's hard to follow something on a grand scale if people cannot work together to maintain it.

As for the prospect of death due to things like cars and planes - I agree, it's tied to capitalism - both in the positives [quick means to get around] and negatives [being cheap on construction]. I also blame the fact that fines affect the 99% rather than the 1% - rich boy gets a slap on the wrist cause daddy will bail him out, where as average joe has to scrape it up and forgoe necessities just to pay the fine. flat % is where it should be.

I also think that the issue we face with communism is that it can be hard to get the community behind innovations as the "creator" would have to convince the mass on why it's for the better good, that's not to say that it shouldn't be heard and considered [think all the negative food additives the USA's FDA approves for example - if the people as a whole told their respective representatives that artificial food colors should be outlawed, we likely wouldn't see such a thing in the USA, provided said reps did as the people said to do]. This scenario [1 vs the mass] could lead to slower progression of a country.

If people want to see the negative aspect of capitalism, look up the Shark Tank episode that had Johnny Georges on it - one of the sharks said no as he wanted a bigger slice and didn't care about the farmers [the community] but another shark saw it and granted Mr. Georges proposed deal, acknowledging not only the values Mr. Georges has, but the community that his item would affect. That said, not all in the land of capitalism are bad, just like those in communism aren't all bad. Greed is what leads to failure.

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Ik the problems with communism, at least told by capitalists, which seem to always be problems with capitalism.
Capitalism is just bad tho, just as bad as capitalist describe communism. People are starving, homeless, and we're encouraging genocide, wars, and violence in other countries for their oil or land instead of helping the people at home.
The money that could be used to help them is instead being used to build *anti* homeless architecture and militarized police who are being used to silence the majority voice who are against those things.
Ik communism is being used as a "scary" word by capitalist, but I'd prefer trying something new to starving in the hellscape we live in today.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Damn, comrade bunny queen?? 🫡

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Ive seen and heard of the horrors of capitalism enough to know its not a good system, late stage capitalism is selling the stuff we need to survive for more money than they give us in our slave wage labor jobs, its the reason people stop going to college so often, its cause its basically useless to do so if they don't pay you enough to live.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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im not giveing up on capitalism just yet...

But you DO have a point about the value of collage going right into the shitter largely due to a cultural issue.

for YEARS we told everybody the secreet to secess was to go for higher education and get a "real job" and now we have over incentivised the higher educationla business model leading to higher costs of education, and over saturated the job market with highly skilled idaviduals who took out a shit load of debt on the promiss they had high paying jobs and careers waiting for them and it just was not true...

this was a failure of the American Educational System though not captalism.

...still sucks..

but we should point the finger in the rihgt direction on that one. Your absolutely right the cost of education is outrageous, and meny business have helped lend to that cultural demand for collage when you really dont even NEED it for meny managment level positions...BUt now more people are tranisitioning twords trades and skilled labour jobs and away from higher education this will reduce the demand for expensive collage tution and should force them to lower it back down to more reasonable levels...though a lot of damage ahs been done thanks to the myth you NEED collage.

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Im giving up on capitalism, not entirely, because I am apart of it and can't do anything to stop it, but I cannot support it as a way forward for America (specifically cause thats where I live).

When it constantly leads to ruin, and greed, its not worth it to really continue that path.
Capitalism encourages businesses to cut corners, cut workers out, and skimp out whenever and however possible. Rules are written in blood, and capitalism is drowning in blood the more and more its allowed to continue.
Boeing is one of many companies currently thats being shown off as a result of capitalism, their planes doors coming off and crashing into the ocean, killing men, women, and children all because they wanted to save money and raise their bottom line.

Capitalism is a poison that corrupts those around it to feed their greed and become more powerful than they ever should.
Idiots like Elon being mega-rich is a result of capitalism through his father owning a child-operated emerald mine, a man-made horror that shouldn't exist, but again, does because of capitalism.
Also Elon being born to a rich slave owning dad makes him very entitled, when he bought his way into Paypal, he wanted to rename it "X" and when that didn't work he bought twitter and renamed it "X" because of a grudge he held over the actual owners/shareholders of Paypal. Then he became a Nazi through following, liking, sharing, and replying constantly to openly neo-nazi users. And all of this happens because of capitalism, greed, and giving money to people who should *never* of had it.

I am giving up on capitalism because I, as an adult, will never own a house because of the greed of capitalism, the "landlords" who will buy up houses and never live in them, but hoard them in the hopes they can make money off the actual hard working people of America. I won't be able to make my own home either or even be *homeless* because that's criminalized under capitalism in America.

Im just so sick of watching late stage capitalism bring shit like this out and I want a better world for us to live in.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Do you read any theory? If not i think you'd really benefit from reading "Capital" and "Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism". It puts a lot of this stuff into perspective, as well as giving more insight onto the inherent aspects of all these things

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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fair arguments though i dont think it's capitalism so much as terrible business practices... which even in a Capitalist system we have laws and regulations designed to protect against that have been ignored.

the problem is when business do stupid shady shit they get fined...wich is a fucking slap on the wrist.

it is possible to be pro capitalism and anti corporatist. I consider myself as such, I agree Boeing is a perfect example of some fuckery that should be checked, and checked hard. They make a shit laod of our military hardware did you know that? but they dont skip ANY coreners! want to know why? Well for one the goverment would come down on them like a god damn hammer if they did but also military contracts are a fucking GOLD MINE and they cant afford the risk the US government takeing there business elseware...so they maintain a high standard of quality.

when it comes to civilian planes they make much less money so they have grown lazy and complacent...this happens when you have a manopoloy and an oligopoly I am opposed to both. the later is much harder to deal with however.

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Im just gonna cut to the root here
Bad business practices are because of capitalism
If there wasn't such an incentive, in the form of bigger sums of cash that these companies can earn by being shitty to "lower classes" then it wouldn't be a problem with capitalism, but it is.

A perfect example of this thats a government agency fucked by capitalism is one you already mentioned, the US military, which is overinflated in the amount of taxes it gets, if we cut out even a little slice of that shit we could be fixing every single problem that we have currently in society and *still* have the biggest military on the planet, since thats such a big worry for some weirdos.
Or the police, which are given more funds to fight the "homeless problem", or fight against the people who don't want a genocide to continue that the US is *fucking funding*. The system of capitalism just isn't working when it makes people hoard wealth in the form of housing, causing homeless people to sleep where they can, which also then causes police to be militarized with funding, to attack those homeless people and makes the police a massive danger to everyone around them, for instance, what happened recently with the police shooting 1 of their own, along with 2 other civilians because one of them jumped a 3$ paywall to get into a train station or whatever.

Capitalism ended up giving the police a massive military budget that makes them gun-crazy to where they use it no matter what for some reason, even for other capitalism problems, like having to pay to take a public transport that should be covered by the fucking taxes these billionaires should be paying but aren't cause of legal loophole horseshit.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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maybe? but you get bad business practices under communist regimes all the time look at both china and russia... in china especialy I seriously doubt we should be blameing capitalism for our policeing problems either?

or are we still pretending tianimen square never happened. XD

Polygon5

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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China and Russia aren't communist. China is a bit more communist but that's more or less optics due to China's history in the 19th-21st century. Russia is completely not communist. It is exactly capitalism (and imperialism for Russia) that has made those countries as bad as you say.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Polygon5

it is NOW XD but I wont accept that the USSR was not communist XD

Polygon5

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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The USSR doesn't exist anymore. Russia isn't the USSR. And Russia isn't communist. Also nobody is saying that communism doesn't have bad actors. It's just argued that communism is strictly better than capitalism. And there's plenty of evidence of this being true, with no evidence of it being false. Arguing that there is some sort of 'good' or 'acceptable' capitalism is also strictly false. As it is only good or acceptable for the people in power or you know, the rich people able and capable of exploiting the poor people. All communism vouches for is for power to be in all people's hands regardless of status or wealth. A dictatorship of the people if you will. And that requires capitalist power, or a dictatorship of the few, to be dissolved/removed/overthrown.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Polygon5

I was speaking about Russia back when it was the USSR as we were talking about STALIN! XD not modern day Russia which has it's problems sure but this aint one of them.

will have to respectfully disagree on the second point about communism being just better then capitalism.. I've seen it fail every time and had people claim it "wasn't real communism" while every successful free nation or earth and even most of the less then free ones, uses a capitalist system.

Sorry if your a proponent of the system, thats fine, but I just don't personally see the marit.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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You do not understand what communism is, sorry

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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I disagree, I would counter you have an idealist world view of communism and it wont work...idealism seldom does.

but lets assume your right, then my view of communism however flawed is about on par with your average None comrades view of the system.. I'm the guy you need to SELL on your ideology if diplomacy is your intention or KILL on your way to it's realization if force is your intended mode of conversion.

Your ideology has a branding issue at the very least =p You can start by throwing all the red and the hammer and sickle shit into the garbage and devoice your movement from symbols most of the rest of the world associates with some pretty bad shit.

even IF all of that in your world view is just bad press! and MAYBE it is?! but you need to ditch it if you want your communist reality on a global scale, you need either the power! to force it into being or the popularity to transition the world peacefully into that state.

You know...Capitalists are REAL good at marketing and branding...maybe if you enlisted a few to repair your image X3

Jokes aside though, If your right and Im so far off the mark then most people are and thats a Communism problem not a people problem since your the ones selling the ideology.

Polygon5

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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To put it bluntly, you're coming off as ignorant on this subject. Like Poke has said a few times, you would benefit from reading on the subject, or learning about it from leftists or socialist content creators. Right wing and capitalist people will misrepresent communism and even anything further left than center politics exactly as you're describing it. And not because they believe it's true, but because it worked during the cold war to psyop the general public into hating the left (yeah, not even just communism, any left policies). Because capitalism benefits from the left not existing. Capitalism gets to continue to exist as long as people don't believe in another way to govern that doesn't involve exploiting 90% of the population. So capitalist nations are built on never platforming the left any further than today's social democracies, and in almost every case always denounce anything leftist and cull anything leftist (not an exaggeration. Look into what the US did to Venezuela and Cuba).

In short, you disagree because you don't know anything, and you also disagree because what you've been told is anti left propaganda from all the way back when America wanted to annihilate the USSR and any leftist policies in the world. If that sounds crazy to you, then I don't know what else to tell you. Furthermore I invite you and strongly recommend you find more neutral and more leftist resources to help you see things from a perspective that allows you to re contextualize what the right wing tell you about history and philosophy. We're not telling you to agree with us. We're only telling you to consider leftist social policies, what they mean, and what they meant (and continue to mean) to right wing policy.

SpringTheBun

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I have been swimming in college debt for a year now and I still got 4 more years left to finish

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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one of the main reasons ive avoided it to this point...well that and the fact the institutions are becoming more about indoctrination into ideological crap and less about learning XD

SpringTheBun

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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unfortunately I gotta do it if I want money to live well in the future :''3

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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i wish you luck! collage is NOT a bad option! it just has sadly decreased in value as the cost to attain it has increased DX I hope will amend this and soon.

SpringTheBun

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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thank you, I hope I can get a good place in the future thanks to this at least

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Unfathomably based

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Nice pfp owo
I have a friend who'd love it!

knotme

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Ever been to North korea

BunnyQueen

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

What a weird question lmao
North Korea isn't communist, its a dictatorship.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Trying to equate a country like china and north Korea, who operate on fundementally different ideologies (dengist socialism with Chinese characteristics and juche thought respectively) is very disingenuous to say the least.

Juche is not representative of communism, it's representative of the material conditions of North Korea and what they've had to do to survive. I'm not a fan of juche, but you can't pretend that it's the same as Chinese communism or Marxism-Leninism

BunnyQueen

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Yea thats a little above me, all I know is NK is *not* a communist country.

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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its more like a prison camp you can be born into =p

JackDesert

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	BunnyQueen wrote:
	Capitalism is how we have all the problems we have today qwq

To be honest, I feel that letting a tiny group of people have control over most of the resources is the issue.
Both Capitalism and Communism has that singular problem though the result is different. CEO greed and private armies on one end, people gaming the system and having the country's military to protect them on the other. I do believe if anyone discovered a way to magically prevent weapons from working, both systems will come crashing down back to square one of "I have deer hides, you have carrots, I will trade you x for y"

RobbieWallace

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I don't know why Generation Z is so keen on defending communism, of course... They did not live in the China or Soviet Russia in the 60s. They also don't like to see people in Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea literally dying of hunger.
In their childish heads they think "the rich should give their fortune to the poor, it's all the rich's fault". They don't know history, they don't know how the economy works...

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Owner

What makes capitalism better exactly?
It's funny how you say communists (who practice Marxist economics) don't understand economics, nor do communists (practitioners of historical materialism) understand history

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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they simply have not experienced it.

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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"I don't know why Generation Z is so keen on defending communism, of course... They did not live in the China or Soviet Russia in the 60s. They also don't like to see people in Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea literally dying of hunger.
In their childish heads they think "the rich should give their fortune to the poor, it's all the rich's fault". They don't know history, they don't know how the economy works..."

Because we're actively watching the system fall apart in front of our eyes, and want a replacement, we want something better that actually serves the people. Could you explain how the current crises we are facing are not directly the fault of the bourgeois? Because, yes, the rich should give their fortune to the poor, the people who actually do all the work in society, why shouldn't they?

JackDesert

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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you'd have to trust those spreading that wealth. That's the rub, when you make those wanting to spread the wealth into a government, they gain an unfair advantage in allocating said resources and very often, they can give military a larger ration of resources and get protection from the people they're supposed to be serving.
Capitalism has the same fucking problem, too few people in control of too much of the resources.

Yury

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Porn lovers of all countries, unite!

RobbieWallace

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Yury

Capitalism? Communism? Bah, PORNISM IS THE BEST!

GreenFr00g

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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And that hot little ass? When are you going to socialize it for me?

DainenDog

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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It's not your ass, it's our ass!

Soiuz nerushimyj respublik svobodnykh
Splotila naveki Velikaia Rus.

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ DainenDog

My ass is already open and socialized, its for everyone ;3c

GreenFr00g

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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perv;;;;

SpringTheBun

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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we'll do good work on it, everyone working together :3

BunnyQueen

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I hope so <3

SpringTheBun

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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you can bet on it~ ;3

ChillStoner

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Same lol

GreenFr00g

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ DainenDog

😈 What's mine is mine and your ass is mine too

DainenDog

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I don't see a problem with that ( ˘ ³˘)♥

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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FINALY a reason to AGREE with communism.

JackDesert

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Oh there are MANY reasons to agree. Unfortunately every time we start something good, we find out it's easier to make a middleman to relocate resources and they wind up being a government that fucks over the general public.
Capitalism has the same problem with a different face.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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We must nationalize the means of cum production! Gordon's ass should belong to everyone!

island

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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[insert long winded dissertation length rant]

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ island

you are correct sir and I agree with all your points!

SpringTheBun

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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how to make world peace:

Disjachi196

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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✊

JacToo2

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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the two problems to face with either side are

leadership [both sides of the coin have this issue big time] and the people who don't participate in work side of things [also an issue on both sides].

biggest issue - people are selfish by nature.

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ JacToo2

I think those 2 are valid problems to point out, but I'd disagree with thr humans are selfish thing. If this were true society could not have ever developed in the first place. We're communal creatures by nature, which is why systems that isolate and force competition between people (capitalism) produce dysfunctional societies. I'd suggest reading up on indigenous societies to see that we are in fact not naturally selfish. We simply live under a system that promotes selfishness and greed, and thus we see it more

JacToo2

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Food for thought - can't it be learned both ways? What I mean here is your example of indigenous people being communal, learning that without the other people you are doomed to fail, etc. But how does one explain conflict of said indigenous people when it came to one group warring against another for food/water. If we're so communal wouldn't they have simply merged and co-existed as a new "nation" ? I do believe that has happened with some, but not all?

Perhaps it's the overall living environment that leads to how communal people can be?

I will agree that I'm wrong in saying all people are selfish.

Pink

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ JacToo2

>Food for thought - can't it be learned both ways?

well of course, that was the point I made at the end of my comment, people who grow up in a system that promotes greed and selfishness, people learn to be greedy and selfish in order to succeed.

>What I mean here is your example of indigenous people being communal, learning that without the other people you are doomed to fail, etc. But how does one explain conflict of said indigenous people when it came to one group warring against another for food/water.

Are wolves and chimpanzees social creatures? Most people would say yes, and yet communities of these species fight against each other, does that mean they're not communal by nature? Of course not. Communities are defined by in groups and out groups, those who are a part of the community and those who aren't. One of the goals of communist philosophy is to get people to think of their in group globally rather than nationalistically or ethnically.

>If we're so communal wouldn't they have simply merged and co-existed as a new "nation" ? I do believe that has happened with some, but not all?

I reiterate my point about wolves and chimps, and really any other social or communal species.

>Perhaps it's the overall living environment that leads to how communal people can be?

Yes absolutely, I do not mean to say that all humans are full communalists or anything of the sort, but that's where our built in nature leads us. It can be countered by material conditions of course. which is why I made the point I did at the end of my last comment, a selfish greedy system produces selfish greedy people.

JackDesert

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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People are greedy. Society tends to self correct by shunning or punishing excessive greed because one person is weaker against nature than a larger group. Problem is, at some point the same greedy people become a government or can influence said government with bribes. The greedy people in the government then helps the first greedy person and reallocate resources to protect themselves from Society.

FoxPatronus

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Owner

i tend to think that the biggest problem with any sistem there will all ways be loop holes that the greedy will use to brack the pore and helpless

wether capitilisome or comonisome you will all ways be those that have the skill to game the sistem

but yes i can say that Capitilisome has started more wars and killed far more peaple in the long run then comonisome has ever done simply because of the fact that the world runs on a capitilist sistom controled by the most powerfull contrys in the world the USA being by far the most powerfull and hole govs have crumbled because they would not do what was best for the USA billions of peaple have starved to death because of the way the statis que has left them to die because they could not pay 10 dollers for some thing that costs less then a doller to make

ps sorry about spelling

Rasik

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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People are too disorganised now and hate each other. Because of it fascism wins now. We don't care much about society, but thinking only about own small house.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ Rasik

If only there was a political and economic ideology that centered community building, cooperation, and mutual aid. Hopefully they'd also be rabidly antifascist as well.

Wait a second...

Rasik

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Hehe ) yeah ) But many people around me don't like nowadays situation and afraid of our future. But in same moment they are afraid of communism. Even people who lived in soviet time. Paradox.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ Rasik

That's really due to capitalist demonization of communism in the west and former Soviet states
It's the only system that presents a viable alternative to capitalism, and that scares the fuck out of them
So they demonize, lie, and exaggerate about the negatives of communism while conveniently ignoring the much more negative aspects of capitalism

Rasik

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Yeah, here governement really afraid of it. They even cut off sickles and hammers fretworks from the walls of 1950-ies buildings last two years here in my city.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ Rasik

That's really lame. Its such a shame what happened in Russia, you guys really got the shortest end of the stick with the fall of the USSR.

EveningFawn

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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My favorite one has got to be how they'll remove our ability to get healthcare and assistance, when that doesnt exist at all under capitalism. Its so backward lmao

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ EveningFawn

I've never actually heard that one before, wow.

Capitalist really can't critique communism without accidentally self-owning

SamanthaIndigo

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Anticommunist liberal or fascist? What is this, 1984? XD

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ SamanthaIndigo

those are the only too options OBVIOUSLY XD good thing were all party supporting law abiding comrades here!

Now lets get inside it's almost past curfew!

SamanthaIndigo

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I hear they're increasing chocolate rations from all our good production this week! Gotta help the boys on the Eurasian front!

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ SamanthaIndigo

wow really? praise our wonderful and glorious leaders.

SamanthaIndigo

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Yes! Praise them! XD

Violet52

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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"omg didn't you know Stalin was a communist???? so you like Stalin's crimes now????"

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ Violet52

Ooh that's a good one

Violet52

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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There's also the usual "bloo bloo everything only works because of PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, if we don't have leechlike shareholders and c-suite morons to take a cut and drive prices up, we'd be left to the corrupt and crony-filled state!"-whining whenever you suggest that, perhaps, healthcare, natural resources or infrastructure should not be profit-making enterprises.

DunkeysMom

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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based

EBIL64

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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“Liberty Prime is online.”

KevinSnowpaw

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ EBIL64

I fuckin wish...

TheColour66

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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"Karl Marx was a wealthy jobless moron who mooched off his parents and never worked a day in his life"

"H*tler was inspired by Das Kapital to write his book"

"Every single time it has been attempted in the past resulted in genocide in the implementation"

"How come farmers aren't allowed to control the means of their own production?"

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ TheColour66

Those are all very funny and good

eeveemancer

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I've got a bunch!

"The United States is the freest nation in the world."

"Israel isn't an apartheid state."

"Capitalism promotes meritocracy."

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ eeveemancer

All very great anti communist arguments, idk how the movement will survive such scathing critiques

veemon777

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Я вижу там Ленина. Это довольно забавно. И ещё китайскую книжку, только я не знаю про что эта книга. Типа конституция по коммунистически?

I see Lenin there. It's pretty funny. And also a Chinese book, but I don't know what this book is about. Like a communist constitution?

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ veemon777

They're quotes from various works by Mao Zedong, popularized during the cultural revolution. Honestly most of what mao wrote is fire 🔥🔥

soranotamashii

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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My comment will get lost in this massive comment section, but I just want to say:
Bem unidos façamos
Nesta luta final
Uma terra sem amos
A Internacional

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ soranotamashii

✊

furryfriendly

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Ukraine outlawed all communism. Hmm I wonder why???? Could it be because communism has always and everywhere been responsible for mass death and starvation?!?!?! Like the Holodomor! Oh, and don’t forget that socialist morality in China outlawed porn. Good thing you live in a capitalist society, pokefound! Otherwise the party would murder you for drawing furry porn.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ furryfriendly

you seem to think since i'm a communist i must agree with the actions of all communist states. weird behavior tbh

also "the party would murder you for drawing furry porn". why do you think that?

furryfriendly

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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China outlaws porn. Red China. Not to mention the USSR outlawed homosexuality.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ furryfriendly

and that means the state will execute me? how do you explain all the furry porn artists that currently exist in china then? and bringing up the USSR is pretty random and unrelated lmfao

MuseumOfSkulls

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I actually have a unique perspective here, as unlike most of the people here, I too am a socialist. I do belive communism can work, under the right conditions, however I think too often does too much control go to those in power. I also think the often lack of democracy in communist nations is the greatest weakness of 99% of communist societies, minus Vietnam, they're actually doing quite well. Without democracy, society will fall, it is but inevitable.

Capitalism however is not the answer either, while it may be more viable in the long run, in the end, Capitalism and consumerism will only end up consuming itself as auroboros did. The only way to sustain Capitalism is through the suffering of others.

So if plain old Communism often fails due to too much power going to those in control, and Capitalism fails due to it's auto-cannibalization then what is the answer? One word: Anarchy. I belive the most simple solution is to remove power from the equation. For this reason I am an anarchist, I belive no man, woman, child, or what else not in this world is truely free, no capitalist is free, no communist is free, and no one will be until government is removed!

Ultimately though, we should be cordial about things, senseless violence and bloodshed will get no one anywhere.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ MuseumOfSkulls

oh hey, i used to be an anarchist for a bit, but certain issues that anarchism wasnt able to address steered me away from it. it's a good ideal to strive for, and communists and anarchists agree on the end goal of society, but anarchists dont really have any way of actually getting it done.

MuseumOfSkulls

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I do agree that there are many issues that haven't necessarily addressed, I personally would largely attribute this to the fact that there hasn't yet been any purely anarchist group that has gained enough traction to work any of these problems out. I think if a big enough, wholly anarchist group was created, perhaps some of the main issues could be ironed out. I think a large problem with it gaining traction is that sadly a lot of people think that we 'don't want rules' or are 'excessively violent', and sadly I do think groups like Antifa only bring Anarchy's name further down in the mud with their violent riots.

Reform is ultimately I think the best way to actually get things set in stone, as violence will only make the large population turn against any group I believe.

Blaze123blaze

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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WHAT THE FUCK

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ Blaze123blaze

Workers of the world unite! You have nothing but your chains to lose! You have a world to win!

ConoStudios

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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based based based based

SpringTheBun

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ ConoStudios

cute cute cute :3

ConoStudios

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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:3 :3 :3

LotusNeuvo

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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real capitalism has been tried (it doesnt work)

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ LotusNeuvo

uM tHaT WaS CrOnY cApItALiSm

glefihaacount

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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we should start calling china and the ussr "crony communism"

glefihaacount

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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damn, there's layers to this. is that a pooh-bear chairman mao??

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ glefihaacount

Nahh he's supposed to be a cat (毛 (Mao) and 猫 (cat) are both "mao", but with different tones.) i just half assed it

minum

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Main problem of communism - it's NEVER tried to start from a small things. It's always want to take a big part of something with all problems and then fail everything (story of Russia and USSR). If somebody want to build communism, then need to start from small things:
1. Find a community
2. Buy a land (better island), where all families should have rights on it
3. Establish ideology and rules there
4. Build farms, blacksmith, houses (solve basic needs)
5. Rise community to 1000 people or more
6. Build production of something, so community can change their products and be independent
7. IF will be no problems, then rise it again and build a village or a small town
8. Buy more land and spread families and ideology
9. Rise production, which must be based on rules of communism (if not, then you are failed)
10. Make a political party (it will be small right now)
11. Spread ideology in a one state or a region
12. Take a smaller villages and cities (win mayor election) and try to build communism there (transition should be slow: 10 years minimum)
13. Political party at this point should be popular and rise
14. Take control of region in election.
15. Repeat it till whole country will be under communism or at least 70%. After you can establish communism officially.
Yes, you should play by rules of the government, but main targets here to hold people separate from the government and its ideology (you and your politicians should works as a shield) and more important to establish real communism in a places, which under your control. Communism MUST works from here, if not, then you failed.

If you can't do this, then communism doesn't work and all, so better not to try to make it on a whole country from the start, because you can destroy everything and your country will be weak, poor and with many deaths.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Owner

@ minum

I'm sorry, but this plan is so detached from reality.
-buy land? From who? A capitalist country is not going to sell land to a communist starter state, nor would they respect it's sovereignty, as evidenced by history
-you cannot win seats in government in capitalist states and achieve communism this way, the capitalist state will not let you (Salvador Allende in Chile was a democratic socialist and the United States lead a coup of his democratically elected government)
-if you think capitalists will sit idly by as a communist state grows in their own territory, wins elections, spreads its ideology, changes policy and economics, you're more idealist and utopian than liberals think communists are.
-You don't have a class analysis, which is crucial for communist theory, the ruling (bourgeois) class will not let you take away their power without a fight (see any ruling class in history)
-You generally don't seem to know how violently hostile capitalist states are to communism and communists, please check out the Jakarta Method for a great breakdown of the history of capitalist oppression of communists.

Revolution is necessary to establish a workers state after you overthrow and dismantle the bourgeois state.
"...the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes."

Communism is inherently an international movement, it does not start off small, it cannot start off small. The world is not Minecraft where you can just buy an island and do communism there, nor could you be a self sufficient communist society on that island. You're honestly just advocating for the North Korean model of "communism" but without the whole revolution part.

minum

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

- Capitalist can sell everything. This is the point of capitalism. Venus Project as example.
- Then democracy in your country looks like dead x_x I do not believe in this.
- True, but if you can't win here, then your communism is just a dream and nothing more.
- Of course! And if you lose this fight, then you are weak and your ideology useless too. Simple as hell.
- I do not think so. Every capitalist can be bought. If you do not know how to destroy your enemy, then what's the point to spread propaganda?

"	Revolution is necessary to establish a workers state after you overthrow and dismantle the bourgeois state.

Revolution never worked. Watch Russian history. If you can't esteblish communism even in a village with a closed society, then you can't do it everywhere. It's simple.

"	Communism is inherently an international movement. it cannot start off small.

1. it's impossible by default.
2. As I said, if you can't control a small group of people, then you can't control everything.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ minum

-Capitalism doesn’t sell everything just because, you have a poor understanding of the way capitalism functions. Capitalists sell things for profit, if they can’t profit, they wont sell. They’ll sit on assets an speculate until they can profit from it. There is literally 0 profit or incentive to sell land to communists, nor would the capitalist states allow this communist territory to peacefully develop. Example: Cuba, which has been embargoed by the united states, cutting off all possibility of trade globally, since its founding.
-Democracy in capitalist states is designed to serve capitalist interests. It is not designed to work against those interests and install communists. When this happens, communists are mass murdered, couped, purged, you name it. You can pretend like the Chilean coup didn’t happen, but i really recommend you look into it, this is a perfect example of what happens when someone goes against the capitalist order. You can even look at Saddam Hussein, who was by no means a socialist. When he nationalized the Iraqi oil industry, you got the invasion of iraq, devastation of the iraqi people, privitization of their oil industry by the us puppet regime, and a stabilization of the global oil market.
-I dunno why you’re discounting revolution as a viable means of establishing a new system. Did liberalism get elected in, or were there liberal revolutions all around the world that established the new ideology? The English revolution, the French revolutions, the American Revolution, the German revolutions, the Chinese revolution, all of these were attempts, successful of otherwise, to establish liberalism from feudalism. We don’t say “well, the first french revolution devolved back into monarchy, so it looks like liberalism is impossible”. That’s total nonsense.
-You’re arguing for revolution by saying that lol! Revolution is necessary because the ruling class will not quietly hand over power or let you peacefully transition. You absolutely must overthrow it.
-Now youre engaging in historical denialism, I can’t argue against someone who is willfully ignoring how these things played out in history. You cannot tell me to look at what happened with russia, then ignore what happened in Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Panama, Indonesia, China, Russia, etc. You dont get to ignore history and appeal to history simultaneously.

>revolution never worked
Uh, you know the People’s republic of china, founded in 1949 after the Chinese Revolution, is still in existence right? Like, right now. The United States, founded after the American revolution, is also still in existence. Revolution clearly works, sorry.

>it is impossible by default
you keep claiming its impossible but have no explained why. What makes it impossible? Please enlighten me

>if you cant control a small group of people, then you cant control everything
you really love to deny history when its convenient to you, huh? 79 years of soviet history, the largest country in the world for its entire existence, is not control over at least a small group? I’ve never heard anticoms argue that communists can’t control anything, it’s always the exact opposite argument.

You also have this puritan view of revolution, like if you dont immediately establish a new system in its entirety, your revolution is failed. You dont understand how things develop and grow over time. You dont install communism overnight, you necessarily have to build towards it. To imply otherwise shows you dont know anything about communism or historical development of socio-economic systems.

Please read the Jakara Method like i said before, it will be very enlightening.

minum

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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- Man, your money is profit for them. As I said watch Project Venus, they bought land and they have ideology very similar to socialism. Why you can't?
- As you said, it's designed to get profit, right? So they will be support you as long as you can give money to them. This is how capitalism works. They can use social networks against you, but they can do it only if your communism society poor and unhappy. If your society will be happy, then all people will be stand for your ideology, right? This means power and support. I do not see any problem here...only if you are lazy and do not want to do anything >_>
- Because liberalism uses similar type of economics as monarchy (lords changed to CEO and etc). What's why UK and other countries still have it. Communism uses far different economics system, which do not have any historical examples, except Russia where it's failed. China uses capitalism right now, North Korea poor and dies. And this problems capitalists can use against you. What's why it's important to start from a small, because you can have a working example. If you do not want to do it, then you will be have lack of practice and as result you will be failed as Russia with revolution and EVERYONE will be against you.
- I am not arguing for revolution. I am arguing for a political fight on enemy's field and uses enemy's rules, while your working class should build communism to show example for everyone. If your politicians and economics can't win capitalism, then what's the point in revolution? Even if revolution will be success, communism will be have the same problems as Russia after revolution. Ukraine crying even now about holodomor, but truth here that it was in a whole USSR, because government had problems with economics. Do you want to build the same for your people? What's why you must build a small society, after you can have practice to fix everything or after first revolution will be the second one where enemy will be you and all communists, which killed American dream.
- And how they was played? We even now do not have working communism. If you think China is communist country, then think twice. It's capitalist country as hell. Other countries in a horrible crisis (see their economics) and do not have fully working communism too.

"	Revolution clearly works, sorry.

Communism revolution is far different. THIS is the problem. Because it should establish far different type of economics, which do not have working examples even now. In other revolutions people already had working model. What's why revolution FOR communism doesn't works.

"	but have no explained why.

1.Because capitalists will be fight against you forever. They hate aggressive actions and you do not want to do everything peacefully (revolution, remember?). And since you do not have working model of economies, they will be use it against you and you will lose everything. You and your friends will be in a jail as a terrorists.
2.Not all countries support the same rules and culture as you, so will be a huge culture wave of war (especially from a muslim countries). EU is the same here, because they already have everything and they do not want ruin it just because somebody dreamed of communism.

"	79 years of soviet history

I am from USSR. It was a poor country where people even do not have a toilet paper! And it was 80s! They tried to build communism till death, but instead it was a dictatorship country with a weird type of capitalism, which died and lived on a Bush's chicken legs whole 90s. Now other republics, which was in USSR, hate Russia for this communist history and "revolutions". Especially for Stalin which even wasn't Russian, he was from Georgia (country). If you do not want the same, then do not make the same mistakes.

minum

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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"	You also have this puritan view of revolution

Problem is NOT in revolution. Problem in the economics. Economics is everything. If you do not have working economics, then you have nothing. What's why you should build working society with economics at least in a village (better in a town). Or your future will be only hunger and gulag.

CnnuyFarmer

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I hecking love starving

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ CnnuyFarmer

You must really love capitalism then!

Sleeves

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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I will go with whatever gives me the most stuff

blackstrike

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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BuT cApItAlIsM mUcH bEtTeR!!1! Yeah, we see how is that working out for the planet and humans all over it.

Pokefound

2 months, 4 weeks ago

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@ blackstrike

Communism never destroyed the planets ecosphere because of overproduction of commodities for profit 😬

Typical capitalist L

McZoyst

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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In my opinion the sound-byte that summed up the early , 1950-1970s , ideal

(((Not what the idea became but the early ideal of the movement)))

The saying

Ask not what your country.....

MrCoyote

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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There are so many arguments that I don't know which one to choose. But I see this and I can't help but think of the hundreds of slaughters fed by the USA to “save” Latin America from communism.

I only hope that someday we have justice for the genocides, for the economic destruction of our countries, for the political and judicial intervention, and for more than sixty years of blockade against Cuba.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ MrCoyote

Yeah, it's really disgusting what capitalism has done to south america specifically. How anyone can support a state that interferes in elections, performs coups, funds terror groups and death squads, installs dictatorial regimes to serve it's interests, and attempts to sanction other countries into submission is beyond me.

I hope south america and Cuba get their justice some day soon

Bloodhawk

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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It doesn't matter if a man wears a bright shiny star on his head or a cross around his neck, both of them are capable of greed, evil, and power through the perpetual stupidity that is humanity. We bicker like children and admire corpses of the greats forgetting everything they warned us about. Like Bibles and books, people pick their favorite parts and learn how to blame the other.

Before you poo-fling your screen, beat your chest, and declare war, I think communism would see its perfection with less of the human factor involved. I am not going to sugarcoat it, whether I like it or not, the human race needs slavery. Whether Americans do it ungracefully or the other side gets a shiny trinket to say "It's for the greater good of the people", I can only hope you agree with me that we need robots AND communism.
Comrade, join me in my vision.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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@ Bloodhawk

Communists agree that the automation brought by capitalism is ultimately good, since it reduces the amount of labor we need to do collectively. Ideally in a communist society we would automate away most things and everyone would only have to work a few hours a day at most. This is especially true when we end commodity production and stop producing consumer goods solely for profit and only for need. We need to work less, and any work we do have to do is not for very long. We retake our lives and can live how we please, never having to labor for someone's personal profit again.

Bloodhawk

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

adding that, every man/woman is a master of their own machine and not a slave to a few masters who own (control) them.

MrFabianLover

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Communism was against dictatorships and stuff like that, but here I am, reading history books mentioning every famine that a communist nation had.

Kidwolf

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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i live in venezuela... that's is a valid anti-comunist argument?

RileyRivers

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Do you agree with Marx that the people should be armed?

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ RileyRivers

*looks at my 3 guns*
Every communist does
"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary"

RileyRivers

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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I prefer Christian Socialism myself. I'm not a Christian but they seem to have a good head on their shoulders.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

@ RileyRivers

Whatever floats your boat in guess, as long as we can agree on the establishment of a stateless, classless, moneyless society where the means of production are publically owned and we produce for need rather than profit.

LifeOfCyn

2 months, 3 weeks ago

lockedlink

Nah bro, Technofascism better

RobbieWallace

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Almost 200 comments and some as long as the Old Testament e_e
Now I know what I have to do when I want to have a really long comment box😁
Well, my anti-communist argument is: If you hate the private property so much why don't you give away all your material things and live like an animal in the wild?? Why do you charge commissions if you hate "selfish individualism"???
Why do these lefties who hate rich businessmen, admire hypocritical, corrupt and murderous marxist dictators like Fidel Castro, who at the time of his death left a fortune of more than a billion dollars????

Well now that I think about it, they are not arguments, just questions that are going to be very uncomfortable for you.

Pink

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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>If you hate the private property so much why don't you give away all your material things and live like an animal in the wild?

Private property does not mean your personal possessions, it means capital. We do not own capital, this question makes no sense, read theory. The conflation between personal and private property is a common thing among people who know nothing about communism lmao

>Why do you charge commissions if you hate "selfish individualism"?

What are you even talking about here? You know what kind of society we live in right? We need money in order to survive lmfao
in a communist society he wouldn't need to charge for commissions, but y'know, that's not the society we live in. Here, its sell your labor or die.

>Why do these lefties who hate rich businessmen, admire hypocritical, corrupt and murderous marxist dictators like Fidel Castro, who at the time of his death left a fortune of more than a billion dollars?

Is there any evidence of this fortune claim that isn't based on assumptions made by a Forbes article? Cuz I see 0 proof of this, would love to see it if there was any tho

RobbieWallace

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Mmmh, you're right to defend your friend. Unfortunately, my time of admiring the Che Guevara passed 10 years ago when I was just a child, I call it "my dumb time". If I changed my way of thinking it was because I realized over time that communism is just a childish dream, something like a society without social classes sounds very nice, but when you try to implement it in real life it only causes disaster. That reminds me... Could you tell me where communism has worked at least once? Where did this ideology come to save the situation and greatly improve people's quality of life?

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Why didn't you address the things he said directly? You ignored everything he said and tried to shift to different topics.

Pink

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Way to just avoid everything I said and pivot to your next talking point lmao, absolutely incredible sophistry on display, like wow lmfaoo

I don't even know what the point in responding to the rest of your comment is since you don't seem to be interested in an honest discussion, but fuck it I'll take the bait.

>That reminds me... Could you tell me where communism has worked at least once? Where did this ideology come to save the situation and greatly improve people's quality of life?

Most precontact societies operated in a mode of production that is often referred to as primitive communism, where things where held in common and shared amongst the community, Marx was actually very heavily inspired by such societies when he was writing. So there's a proof of concept, but no, no socialist society thus far has been able to reach the final stage in the transition from capitalism to communism, assuming that's what you were referring to. We've only been able to achieve the first stage as to go further requires an end to the global domination of capitalism, can't exactly dissolve the state when every major capitalist country is constantly looking to invade you...

As for examples as to where the ideology has helped people we have the following:
China, russia, vietnam, Cuba, Burkina Faso
All these places had successful communist revolutions that objectively improved the lives of the people in their countries when compared to where they were previously. Did they attain the US' standard of living? No. Were they perfect and did everything right? No of course not, but the fact of the matter is that, yes these revolutions did in fact improve the lives of their people. Lifespans went up, literacy rates and education skyrocketed, unemployment dropped, Healthcare was provided, and the people were fed (after the famines caused by a combination of drought, capitalist invasion, and government mismanagement) both the chinese and great Soviet famine were the last those countries ever faced, in places where famine were histprically routine.

Additionally communists were heavily involved in workers rights movements across the US, being heavily involved in unionization efforts, being one of the primary reasons the new deal even happened, being heavily involved in the civil rights movement ect. MLK, Malcom X, and the black panther party for example were all blatant socialists or communists

RobbieWallace

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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I know stories of communist revolutions by heart because as I told you before, when I was a child I was a great admirer of those revolutionaries.
Unfortunately, the charm ends. In 1993, Cuba entered an unprecedented economic crisis from which it has not recovered, If you visit the poor island you will notice that there is no food or medicine, the buildings are crumbling, The government is more repressive and tyrannical than Batista or Pinochet.
Another thing, of course I defend labor rights and the lower classes, so if you have the idea that "capitalists are heartless sharks who do not care about the poor" it's just an exaggeration, All people in the world pay taxes, and the more money they earn, the more taxes they pay, money that is used to help those most in need.
What I will definitely never defend is this radical communism that wants "power to be for all equally", Just imagine the disaster that uneducated peasants would cause in power, that is why power must be for the most capable.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

I'm going to reply to each of your arguments and explain my answer in detail. I would really appreciate if you would read each of them and give me a response as to what you think i get wrong. Thanks.

"If you hate the private property so much why don't you give away all your material things and live like an animal in the wild?"
I do not define private property as "things that i own". To communists, private property is things like raw materials, land, means of production, things which make other things that have increased value. Things like your toothbrush, clothes, food, are all considered "personal property", consumer goods meant for individual consumption. Communists do not want to abolish personal property, we want to abolish private property, which is the root of the capitalist economic system.
Your argument makes no sense because you are asking me to give away my private property AND my personal property, and implying that i'm being hypocritical for not giving away my personal property.

"Why do you charge commissions if you hate "selfish individualism"?"
I charge money for commissions because as a communist, i believe workers should be fairly compensated for their labor. The reason I take commissions is because, much like yourself i imagine, I have bills to pay. I pay rent, internet, utilities, food, insurance. All of these things are necessary for me to live an acceptable quality of life. But when your pet gets sick and you're on a tight budget, you need to make some money to keep your bills from defaulting, so I sell commissions to make up for it.
I still live under capitalism, and i don't want to die, so I am forced to participate in the market, to pay landlords their rent, to pay companies for their goods. I don't have another choice since capitalism is the economic system of the world.

"Why do these lefties who hate rich businessmen, admire hypocritical, corrupt and murderous marxist dictators like Fidel Castro, who at the time of his death left a fortune of more than a billion dollars?"
You know, I had never heard this claim that Fidel was a near billionaire before (the claim is $900 million, not over a billion), so I looked into it. The claim originates with Forbes, an American business magazine. Here's how they came to their estimate according to an NBC article from 2006: "In explaining its calculations, Forbes said it assumed Castro has economic control over a web of state-owned companies including a convention center, a retail conglomerate and an enterprise selling vaccines and other pharmaceuticals produced in Cuba." So, Forbes isn't basing this on any concrete information, they're just making an assumption, a guess.
A follow-up Forbes article literally says "Luxurious living arrangements were especially appealing to Castro." then says "Castro's paranoid personal life and residences were top secret." If his residences were kept secret and no one knew where they were, how do you know they were "luxurious"? It's guesswork by capitalists, so not a very balanced source if they're just willing to make things up to try and win over points against Castro.
You should read the follow-up article they made on Castro when he died, they have to reach so far to try and discredit Castro as being a "secret capitalist" since the age of 14. Wild stuff. https://www.forbes.com/sites/keithflamer/2016/11/26/10-...

"they are not arguments, just questions that are going to be very uncomfortable for you"
No, these are arguments, they're just not very good because you make assumptions about me, what i believe, and misunderstand concepts in communist theory like private and personal property. These arguments were not uncomfortable for me at all. I hope you read all these counterarguments and can point to me where I'm wrong.

RobbieWallace

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Why didn't I respond? Well, man, I have a life, and I can't stay here debating forever. Mainly I know that it is useless to debate because neither of us will change our way of thinking, You live in a world where workplace accidents and religious wars in the Middle East are "the fault of damned oppressive capitalism."
I live in a world where more than 150 million people have died because of that ideology, a world where the worst tyrant dictators like Stalin, Mao and Castro are lovers of precisely that ideology.
Everyone has their own truth that they feel most comfortable with, some think the earth is flat, others that reptilians are real, and others think that something like a classless society can exist, And I'm not here to judge the beliefs of others.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

the question wasn't why didn't you respond fast enough, it's why didn't you address anything he said and change the topic?

please, i beg you, just give direct responses to what he originally said. that's how a conversation works. if you don't want to have a conversation, stop replying.

Pink

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

It didn't reply to the right thing

charyoshi

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Support automation funded universal basic income if you want to support feeding people without shoving lgbtq people into a gulag

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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UBI is a bandaid solution that will funnel government money directly to the rich if you don't get rid of capitalism.

No one here is arguing to perfectly recreate the USSR, their policy on gay rights was terrible and future communist projects should not do that, obviously

charyoshi

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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I'm fine with bandaid solutions and the rich existing if it means that we end the vast majority of hunger overnight and hyperfund charity. Ending 99% of student lunch debt while paying the homeless to afford part of a rent payment fixes more problems than removing ceos from companies.

Let me put it to you another way. Every commission wanter could be paid $1000 a month of potential commission/patreon/subscribestar/whatever money. Funding your fanbase also funds you.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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It's funny that you think I would care about personally enriching myself from a ubi. You actually played right into what I said about ubi too, that it just funnels money up the ladder if you don't address capitalism.

Just get rid of the system that creates homelessness, unemployment, massive wealth disparity, poverty, mass starvation on a global scale, deaths due to preventable illnesses.

There's no sense in letting this continue seeing how it's currently killing tens of millions of people a year and destroying the planet.

charyoshi

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

No it's funny that you don't. Holy christ can you just give away free money then if you don't care about it?

Funneling money up a ladder doesn't matter if everyone is paid to eat and crowdfund. Especially if wealth distribution from billionaires is partially used to fund it.

I literally am removing the mass starvation system, capitalism only has bread lines without UBI, and the system that creates unemployment is called technological advancement. We've got algorithms already capable of drawing furry porn and assembly lines that don't sleep. Wait til self driving trucks happen.

Source on the 10,000,000's yearly killstreak of capitalism? Also how do those sources differentiate between the Chinese communist coal smog and capitalist coal smog?

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Unfortunately i live in a world where money is a necessity so i can’t just “give away” free money that i dont have. I’m not interested in accumulating vast amounts of wealth, i just want to live a decent life. That’s not that crazy lmfao

Youre taking for granted the fact that food is a commodity to be bought and sold for a price, produced to make a profit, and is something you should be expected to pay for rather than something that’s needed by everyone to, you know, not die.

You’re okay with leaving the system that generates billionaires in place, but not okay with them being billionaires? You want to expropriate their money for the common good but not the thing that generates that money (the means of production)?

Capitalism has “bread lines” because food is a commodity, not something distributed based on need. If it were, people would not need a UBI to pay for food in the first place. This is why i said (and you agreed) that it was a bandaid solution. Bandaid solutions definitionally do not address the core problem and only address symptoms. If you want to run the analogy into the ground, eventually the wound under the bandaid festers and the bandaid falls off. You need to treat that massive wound, not slap a bandaid on it and call it good, because a bandaid isn't the correct treatment for the wound.

Technological advancement is indeed part of capitalism, the industrial revolution and ongoing advancements raise productivity and lower cost, but what we dont see is a massive reduction in the working day. We still work 40-60 hour days depending where you live despite productivity being at all time highs and people still suffer in unemployment. We could cut the working day to generate more jobs, but we dont, because capital depends on a destitute underclass that is willing to work for any wage they can get, which is massively profitable. We don't have a guaranteed right of work, we are forced to sell our labor power to the highest bidder in a market of labor. Almost like labor power itself is a commodity.

I made the argument in some replies above (ctrl+f “34 million”), linked my sources for figures i used, explained how every category is related to capitalism, and even gave capitalism a generous 50% reduction in total death figures to account for “communist” countries potentially skewing the data (communist states dont even make up close to 50% of the population, its closer to a quarter). Even then, it’s still tens of millions of deaths per year. I didn’t even account for pollution related deaths, but we can slap that on there too if you want to make it even worse for capitalism.

For reference, the commonly cited death toll of communism is 100 million, popularized by “The Black Book of Communism”; that toll averages 1.3 million a year over the course of 80 years (1917-1997). If you want to double it to 200 million and expand the dates from 1917-2024, its only 1.9 million per year. Capitalism dwarfs that figure, even by conservative estimates.

While its obviously not good to kill millions of people per year with an economic and politcal system, if such a thing is inevitable because people and the systems they create are not perfect, i’d rather take the one that only kills 2 million instead of 17 million, no question.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Owner

Oops I meant "40-60 hour work weeks", not days 💀💀💀

Sometimes the workday does feel like 40 hours tho

charyoshi

2 months, 2 weeks ago

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Edited 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Owner

> Youre taking for granted the fact that food is a commodity to be bought and sold for a price

Prices become irrelevant when people are paid to afford them

> You want to expropriate their money for the common good but not the thing that generates that money

Yes because that is a billion times simpler. I don't give a shit about the inner workings of corporations, I want to be paid to live without being a wageslave. Don't promise me 3 hour workweeks with communism, promise me 0 hour workweeks with capitalism. Tax billionaires beyond the billion dollar mark since victims don't have a billion dollars and let ceo's do what they want. With suddenly billions flowing every direction people get enriched from the bottom up, better themselves in immediate ways, call out shitty business practices more effectively and spend those riches at companies, bettering the companies too. The only missing ingredient is money.

> Capitalism has “bread lines” because

people aren't paid to afford bread. Capitalism with ubi has no bread lines. That's the point.

> This is why i said (and you agreed) that it was a bandaid solution.

It's the kind of bandaid solution that will be in place permanently and solve more than communism ever has because starvation sims are less effective than bandaid solutions.

> We still work 40-60 hour days depending where you live despite productivity being at all time highs and people still suffer in unemployment.

So pay people not to suffer in unemployement and watch as millions of wageslaves who were literally only at work for a paycheck immediately quit their wageslavery, opening up huge areas of the workforce for those desperate enough to look. The communist alternative is wageslavery without wages isn't it? You don't get to 'just live' in communism right?

> We could cut the working day to generate more jobs, but we dont, because capital depends on a destitute underclass  that is willing to work for any wage they can get,

Capitalism is already better than you seem to want to comprehend. Fuck the destitute underclass, they are obsolete, they want breadcrumbs.  Robots work for free and the future is figuring out how to make machines do jobs that people used to at every turn. The destitute underclass will be fired as much as the algorithm allows.

So long as the ruling class is the owning bourgeois class, the class struggle continues.

> I made the argument in some replies above (ctrl+f “34 million”), linked my sources for figures i used,

Hooooleeee shit. Could I maybe see the math a little better? Lets see If I can work it out.

We've got 9 million here from world hunger that wasn't prevented by either capitalist or communist societies, (UBI fixes hunger)

There's 3 million here but wait

> Most of these work-related fatalities, totalling 2.6 million deaths, stem from work-related diseases. Work accidents account for an additional 330,000 deaths, according to the analysis.

Oops, it was actually 1/10th of 3 million unless every disease they had was also capitalist, and if they were only sick on the job for a paycheck UBI would pay them to stay home and recover.

There's global immunization for some reason, dunno what 3rd world health standards have to do with capitalism or communism but I'm not even seeing a death count on it

I can't even read this half century old article because it's paywalled

It's abstract says

> The loss of life from an unequal distribution is an aspect of structural violence: violence inherent in the social order.

Which I agree with, and can be fixed with UBI.

Where again does this magical death count come from?

Pokefound

2 months, 2 weeks ago

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Wow, i wish you hadn’t replied to me, this was a horrid attempt at a response.

You advocate for letting the bourgeois “do whatever they want”, then somehow expect the government to expropriate wealth from them and redistribute it in the form of a UBI, call that a “permanent band aid solution” (literally nonsense) and say “fuck the destitute underclass”, the very people you should be advocating to help. This is unhinged, genuinely. Anyone who can sit there and simultaneously advocate for a “bottom up” improvement of living standards and then say “fuck the poor” in the same message is not a serious person, you’re an inhuman monster.

Seriously, I cannot fathom how anyone who advocates for a UBI can then say “fuck the destitute underclass, they’re obsolete”, as if they aren’t real people living in squalor because of capitalism (as you yourself admitted). You literally advocate for creating a rich middle class that doesnt work and lives off of UBI, and instead leave all the labor to, as you yourself said, “those desperate enough to look” and machines. And its supposedly communists who are lazy and dont want to do any work lmfao.

Communists have always understood that labor is an inescapable fact of life, and even under communism people will need to perform some kind of labor. The goal is to reduce the amount of labor we have to do with automation, ceasing commodity production based on profit, and a fair division of labor that everyone contributes to. The only reason we work so much is because of the capitalist mode of production; producing endless Funko Pops is needless work solely for the sake of profit and wouldn’t be necessary under communism. Also saying “wage slavery without wages” is so wildly contradictory that its just funny.

How you think you can disconnect deaths caused by “work-related diseases” from workplace accidents is beyond me. A worker who gets mangled by unsafe machinery and a worker who dies from lung cancer from working in an unventilated facory have died from the same system, indisputably. Like i said, the exact figures aren’t even important, cut the figure to 25% and capitalism undoubtedly kills more people than communism ever did as a much faster rate.

I will be blocking you, anyone who says “fuck the destitute underclass” is an unserious, inhuman monster not worth my time talking to.

Pokefound

2 months, 3 weeks ago

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