Inkbunny

Exactly. She's getting away with stuff that sends a really horrible message.

Thankfully, she did do some good things too, as you said. The very end of "Secret of my Excess" between her and Spike was sweet enough that I still really enjoyed the episode. But it really bothered me at the beginning to see her convince Spike to hand over his gem by acting like a baby and making pouty faces at him. And of course, Spike's lesson at the end is that being greedy is bad, but Rarity's greed was perfectly fine.

Now, this behavior isn't entirely new for Rarity, but it was much more in line with the tone of the show in episodes like "Over a Barrel" where she started using her whiny voice to say AJ was pulling her saddle too tight, and AJ responded, "Too bad!"

Cloud006

13 years, 4 months ago

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your so right.
But now that Faust is no longer working on the show what we love about it may stop being a part of it.

Strebiskunk

13 years, 4 months ago

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Well, that's partially true. But she did do pre-production work on all of Season 2 before leaving. So everything we're seeing now was still done with her guidance.

Cloud006

13 years, 4 months ago

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oh right.
how could i for get that.
so the good news being we wont see any real differences until Season 3.

DarthRandall

13 years, 4 months ago

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Rarity has always been like that with Spike.  That had been the fundamental dynamic of their relationship since the beginning--she bats her eyelashes to get Spike to do something contrary to his own interests like be a pin cushion or haul her garbage (why does a fashion boutique create so much foul refuse?), and he eagerly complies.  I suspect the ending with the King Kong and the falling was a way for the writers to finally break them out of that morally questionable user/usee relationship, although where it goes from here I can not imagine.  They probably also wanted to make Spike a little less of a doormat who constantly gets walked over by the main characters.

But you didn't like Rarity in Sweet and Elite either?  I thought that  was Rarity at her best.  She is a flawed character, perhaps more so than any of the others.  She is a pompous, fussy, and manipulative social-climber.  That makes it all the more endearing when she does something like stick up for her embarrassing friends at a black tie party, make up with her little sister, or cheer on the friend that she is deeply jealous of. You can count on Rarity to do what she should, no matter how much it pains her to do so.

I honestly wish that we could see more of that triumph over self from some of the other characters.  Fluttershy had a similar moment at the end of "Dragonshy," and Rainbow Dash sort of did in "May the Best Pet Win."  That is about it as far as I can recall, though.

Celestia and Rarity's faces in the picture are pure gold, by the way.

Strebiskunk

13 years, 4 months ago

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@ DarthRandall

First of all, with "Sweet and Elite"... I actually liked this episode, and I really liked the ending, with Twilight being supportive, and Rarity sticking up for her friends.  And I understand Rarity's motivation for acting the way she did.
My problem with Rarity's lying was mainly that it seemed unnecessary, and it left an unresolved gap in the story.  Twilight supports Rarity mingling with the other party because she thinks she's trying to sell her dresses for the Gala.  And Rarity just kinda goes with it, even though explaining the truth wouldn't have been that far off anyway.  I'm also curious how the issue of Rainbow Dash being the Wonderbolts' trainer was resolved, since Rarity was about to introduce her friends to Fancy Pants at the end, but it continued off-screen.  Also going back to it being unnecessary: Rainbow Dash saved several of the Wonderbolts' lives, helped save Equestria twice (once from Nightmare Moon, and later from Discord), and along with Rarity was a personal friend of Princess Celestia's favorite student.  Rarity really needed to make up some credential of her being a trainer?  If anything, that sounds less impressive than her actual life!  Personally, I think it would have been easy enough for Rarity to just come clean and have everyone forgive her, rather than just ignoring the issue and leaving a hole in the story.  Yes, despite my issue with that part of the episode, I think Rarity was fully entitled to a happy ending.  I just would've gone about it in a slightly different way for the story's sake.

"Secret of my Excess" is where my real problem is, though.  I understand why the characters acted the way they did (she's a drama queen fussing over a rare gem, he likes her and wants to make her happy), but there are a couple of points to consider here:

1.  The gem was his birthday dinner.  That he made himself.  Add to that the fact that he's still technically a baby dragon, and she's LITERALLY taking candy from a baby.  There has to be a line drawn here somewhere, and I feel like they crossed it.

2.  As I pointed out, he made the gem, so I'm assuming he could have made another one or taught Rarity how to make one.  This would have been an easy solution to make Rarity happy without spoiling Spike's birthday.  Granted, it would have been harder to work this into the ending (and I have to admit, it's a really great ending), but really, they both deserved a better set-up than this in the first place.

I do like your explanation of the ending, though.  Kind of a way for Spike to finally say, "Bitch, you better recognize!"
And believe me, despite all of my ranting, I will be making fanart of that ending.  I absolutely love that it felt like there was a major change between the characters there.

DarthRandall

13 years, 4 months ago

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"	Strebiskunk wrote:
	Also going back to it being unnecessary: Rainbow Dash saved several of the Wonderbolts' lives, helped save Equestria twice (once from Nightmare Moon, and later from Discord), and along with Rarity was a personal friend of Princess Celestia's favorite student.

Simpson, eh?

In "Secret of My Excess," the redeeming moment for Rarity's manner of acquiring the ruby really comes at the end where, before she realizes who she is talking to, she expresses gratitude to and admiration for Spike, even going so far as to defend the gift from a giant "monster." Sure she uses him, but his sacrifices actually mean something to her contrary to what we had seen up until that episode. Ultimately, that makes Spike's gift valuable to him and really brings home the moral of the episode that giving is better than receiving.

Strebiskunk

13 years, 4 months ago

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@ DarthRandall

I just had someone else point out that Rainbow Dash would have probably been more than happy to pretend to be the Wonderbolts' trainer... But again, wouldn't it have been more satisfying to actually see that instead of jumping ahead to another scene?

For "Secret of My Excess" I understand all of that. I still feel like they should have used a different approach to set things up at the beginning. Maybe I'm letting my own perspective get in the way, since I've had some pretty rotten experiences with birthdays and gifts being taken away and such, but I just feel like you shouldn't mess with someone's birthday on principle.

DarthRandall

13 years, 4 months ago

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They could do a whole episode with Rainbow Dash pretending to be the Wonderbolts' trainer! All the while, they would think that she was a water boy or something. Meanwhile, Fluttershy, after getting talked into helping by her more alpha friend, would try to distract, detour, and otherwise hide the real trainer from anyone who might figure out the ruse. That sounds like it would be funny as hell.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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@ DarthRandall

I think I replied to you by accident.

DarthRandall

13 years, 3 months ago

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So you were accidentally talking to me. That happens to me a lot. LOL

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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\I for one don't see anything wrong.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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I for one don't see a problem.

Lewt

13 years, 4 months ago

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its going downhill in general.

i mean, you begin to wonder if half the ponies are turned braindead for the sake of allowing a new episode, like sweetie belle messing up like 20 things in a row and simply not listening when she's told to stop doing things without asking or something. and then acting up like she didnt do a lot of things wrong. even if shes just a kid, rarity had good reasons to be somewhat angry with her and not happily accept to go and do something she would be appalled to do either way.
or twilight acting like a retard when she was afraid of being tardy.

or when everyone ganged up to teach dash a lesson, without doing the reasonable thing by just talking to her, instead they stole her thunder, forced her to become agressive and unconcentrated, eventually making her act like a lunatic what made her embarrass herself infront of several other people. i mean, yeah, she bragged, but seriously, bragging was one of her characters most important traits before, how is it now bad when she did something thats worth bragging about? is it right to do something like that just cause someones character annoys you?

i mean, yeah, friendship lessons just dont fall from the sky on a weekly basis, but becoming an idiot for the sake of being able to learn something new is just weirdly wrong.

really, the only episode of this season that i truely enjoyed was the one with the turtle. even though it was extremely obvious how everything would eventually play out, it at least seemed to stay true to characters and moral of the story... even though i kinda wouldnt think that fluttershy supports contests to find a "perfect pet"
but yeah... i hope things dont stay like that for too long

Strebiskunk

13 years, 4 months ago

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@ Lewt

You do make some good points here, but in defense of a few things:
1.  Sweetie Belle has always been kinda... slow... compared to the other kids.  (visiting Fluttershy and getting her head stuck in one of the birdhouses, being extra clumsy in general, taking a long time figuring out how to react to different things)  "Sisterhooves Social" was interesting because I could actually see it from both Rarity and Sweetie Belle's points of view.  Sweetie Belle was trying to help out in ways that made sense to her, and she messed up because she didn't have the grown-up perspective to draw from (partially because she was being completely ignored and had no guidance to help her improve).  And for some kids, getting yelled at makes it easy to get discouraged and think, "My sister hates me" instead of, "Maybe I'd better think about this from a different point of view."  And yes, Rarity was completely justified in being upset.  But she also had a problem figuring out how to be more involved with Sweetie Belle in a constructive way, which was one of the reasons Sweetie Belle was acting out in the first place.
2.  For Twilight.... Actually, I used to be the same way, blowing small problems way out of proportion, back when I was in school (why yes, I was a straight-A student who freaked out about being tardy).  And for me, part of the problem was the same as with Twilight... No one took her seriously enough to stick with her and keep her from making an ass out of herself.  Sometimes, we really do need friends to save us from our worst impulses.
3.  For Dash, this is kind of a split.  Yes, she deserved to brag about something as awesome as saving lives.  Yes, bragging is something she's ALWAYS done.  And yes, her friends absolutely should have talked to her about it instead of holding their own session of "The View" behind her back or making condescending remarks comparing her to Mare-Do-Well.
AJ: "Gosh, Mare-Do-Well sure is great and HUMBLE."
Dash: "Really?  Humble like you're being right now?"
AJ: "Uhh... *cough* Well... Your momma!"
Still, it was good to have a back-up hero, since Dash ended up becoming more concerned with her Spider-man intro than with giving herself enough time to save anyone.  So yeah, her bragging did become a legitimate problem before Mare-Do-Well showed up (and let's face it, the costume was pretty cool).  I personally don't think this episode was that bad, but yeah, I think it would have been better if Dash's friends had been more direct with her.  They still could've worn the Mare-Do-Well costume even, just so long as they didn't try to put Dash down by bragging about their own accomplishments while pretending it was someone else.
Overall, I've really enjoyed this season.  But you're right, all of the problems with the episodes revolve around the characters being uncharacteristically stupid or mean, and it's been getting more noticeable recently.  Hopefully, it's just a lull before we get a batch of stronger episodes.  If you'll recall, Season 1 followed a similar pattern.  And everything seems to be amplified in Season 2.  So, while the good points of this season really stand out, it makes the bad parts stand out that much more.  But, if my comparison to Season 1 is any indication, that means we should be in for something really amazing later.  Fingers are crossed.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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personally, I can forgive all of that.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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and I don't think the ponies have ever been written out of character.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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plus, out-of-character moments don't bother me unless it is something completely against who the character is. occasionally having behavior that is inconsistent with your usual personality is actually realistic.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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and wile the question of why the others just didn't tell Rainbow Dash to knock it off with the ego is a legit question, I have my own. would Rainbow have listened if they did that right off the bat? and the whole Mare-Do-Well thing was a bit mean in hindsight but they were screwing with Rainbow for a good reason.

Strebiskunk

13 years, 3 months ago

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Oh, heck no! She would've waived a dismissive hoof and went back to basking in her own glory. I think most people's issue with that, though, is that the other characters tend to be more level-headed (with the possible exception of Pinkie Pie), so it was just a bit surprising that one of the first things they thought to do was to create their own combined superhero persona and utterly destroy Dash's surprisingly sensitive ego.

Personally, I actually liked the Mare-Do-Well episode, but I can also understand why a lot of other people had problems with it.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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but like I said, they had a good reason to do it. and it was kinda Rainbow's own fault for letting her ego inflate that much. so all things considered, the other five were justified in their actions.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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didn't Rarity lean her lesson in those episodes?

Strebiskunk

13 years, 3 months ago

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Well, for "Sweet and Elite," it's a bit iffy.  Her lesson there was to accept where she came from as being an important part of who she is.  Don't know if she learned anything about the lying, though, because that kinda goes unresolved.  I know she didn't do it to be bad, but I would've liked there to be a bit more closure to that part of the story.

As for "Secret of My Excess," I don't think Rarity really learned any lesson because it wasn't her episode.  It was a Spike episode.  And I'll agree that her actions were in-character for her, but I still don't think it was very nice.
Plus, with Lauren Faust's recent reveal about Celestia's connection to Spike, how do you think the Princess would react upon hearing that her baby's birthday meal got taken away?  ;)

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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well, in "Sweet and Elite", the lying thing was probably resolved off-screen as the cat was out of the bag at the garden party.

and with "Secret of my Excess", whatever Rarity did to get the gem, it's made clear that Spike wanted her to have it. and Rarity showed that she does care for Spike.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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again, even if Rarity wooed Spike into giving it to her, it was more about him wanting her to have it.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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OK, I kind of see your point. but Rarity still leans her lesson and know she was wrong even if she was acting dickish for most of the episode. that should count for something.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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to finish, Rarity was still very much in-character in those episodes.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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and I have also added my thoughts in replies to other commenters on this picture. even with the valid points you bring up, I can still thing of ways that these things are in character for the ponies.

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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and I realized that the Rarity-centered episodes of season one didn't have a moral that was Rarity's to lean personally, she was dealing with crap from other characters. she's leaning lessons herself this season so it makes sense that her less admirable traits are more pronounced.

Strebiskunk

13 years, 3 months ago

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Okay, how do I put this?  The thing is, I've already heard every argument from every side of this discussion, and I DO understand where you're coming from.  There are certain areas where we still disagree, and that's perfectly fine.

But the problem here is that there are certain areas where I've already -agreed- with you, and even on those points, you're still trying to argue with me.  In that regard, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to accomplish.

It seems that you're really passionate about this subject, and that's great.  But I've already heard every argument there is to hear, and I've already said everything that I have to say about it.  I really don't know where else this discussion can go.  So, (and I'm saying this as nicely as possible) can we please just drop this and move on?

krypto451

13 years, 3 months ago

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