Inkbunny

Way I see it is this: 1) your characterization of right wing ideas is woefully misguided (around half of your country are just deluded fools who are in love with the very people who screw them, apparently). 2) the only alternatives to discussion are dominance or submission. No talking? That's pro violence.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

When their delusions endanger the well being of the rest of us, should we allow them to destroy our country?

If their bad decision only effected themselves I could turn a blind eye, I'd still feel less of a man for just letting it happen, but at least they could be left to their own devices.

But it's not just a handful of local governments or states at risk but our whole economy, our massive military which can go cause problems else where, our safety and environment, and our very future if our education system is abandoned wholesale.

My reason is based off the legislation pursued over decades by the right, and while the deluded masses might not understand the consequences of their actions they enable such policy to be advanced.

When conservitives fight for and pass laws that actually benifits someone other then the one percent then they can come talk about their good ideas.

I judge based off action as well as intent and thier history speaks for itself.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

The problem is, the conservatives believe exactly the same thing about left-wing policies. That they will destroy the USA. I'm a centrist, personally, I see great value in both sides, but things right now are too far left. I've spent a few months now going over arguments by people like Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Haidt, Thomas Sowell, Ben Shapiro, David Horowitz et. al. and it has been enlightening. I was previously left-wing my whole life, but this past 12 months I've realized how utterly wrong I was.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Outside of the college campus scene with safe spaces and teaching content being banned over trigger warnings I don't see how we are too left.

Is it because we allow gay marriage now that we are too left?

Is because some big business are using their money, their free speak as citezen United gave them, to go after discrimination laws being pruposed by red states?

I still don't see a living wage yet, isn't that a left idea?

We still won't stop fracking drilling that's poison our drinking water and causing earth quakes.

We still hate unions and can't stand togther to protect workers rights.

We can't even admit global warming has a human component to it.

Seriously how are we too left?

I can't understand that statement at all.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I know you don't understand it and I don't expect you to. It took me several months of thinking, reading and listening. I'm not going to change your mind in a comment on inkbunny or even with a thousand comments. Life is a journey and all that XP.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Perhaps I'm limited in my exposure, and not seeing the same worrying trends on the left you are.

But disagreeing with someone opinion even forcefully is not the same as taking away their right to free speech.

I don't expect others to always agree with me, and I don't live for others approval. But it's hard for me to go off any thing but the facts, and I don't mean alt facts.

The burden of proving themselves are on the right and they have ever opportunity to prove themselves yet they can't even pass their own agenda in our goverment they have control of. How am I to judge them other than on what they have done and proclaimed to be their values?

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Yes, your perspective is different from mine, you don't see what I see and vice versa, which is why dialogue will always be important. However, your characterization of conservative values is a summary that says nothing other than that it is self-destructive and bigoted. I'm not sure what kind of future you're hoping to see if you think the best mentality is to see half of your own country as a collective of morons.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I do view the future as bleak, but with the control they have now they can make change for the better. If they do then I will congratulate them and be relived. But they have to act and do so and with how poorly they are governing now I have little hope for that.

dgtdgt

7 years, 8 months ago

link

To be fair, I see about 90% of the country as morona, and when it comes to politics I try to keep my nose out of others beliefs or opinions, unless someone is blatantly talking about a policy change that would completely screw me over.

Why you might ask? Because I admit I do not know enough about politics to understand it, grouping myself with the 90% until I further my knowledge and have a proper understanding.

What I do know is that we need the government to have more than the left versus the right. As it is that only causes stalemates, or concessions that end up screwing a large portion of people over just to pursue one cause. To me, if you are going to pursue a policy to help one group, if that makes things worse for another group, then that is taking one step sideways rather than forward or back.

Sideways is better than backwards, but neither leads to real progress.

zangooseOO

7 years, 4 months ago

link

An entire movement sliding down the very slippery slope of putting restrictions on speech, the most powerful weapon of the people

Violent protests on a regular basis

An inability to even give dissenting voice a platform, with protest organizers on camera explicitly telling their sheep not to talk with the other side

a transparent narrative that is struggling to keep itself together

and lets not forget the occasional "suicide via gunshot to back of head" incidents of people tied to and testifying against those in charge

the short list of things that are most certainly not "the college campus scene" which the current democratic and liberal organizations of this country are guilty of
i dont fancy myself a conservative either, but for the moment it's clearly the lesser evil

here's your redpill, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA and keep in mind this was all the way back in the 80s

CuriousFerret

7 years, 4 months ago

link

@ zangooseOO

I take it you're a beliver of the deep state conspiracy?

Any assassinations you feel I missed in the last year?

There is a clear lack of leadership and direction on the Democratic side, there is a fraction of idealoges much like the Republicans had with the tea party. There is a violent fringe in antifa.

I ask though how does this excuse the current party in full control of our government from being unable to function even at its most basic of levels?

The have given me no reason to believe they can govern.

Trump didn't try to win my vote, doesn't desire it and won't get it in the future.

What little say I have on any of this won't come till the mid terms.

My thoughts and comments here don't really matter.

Faren

7 years, 9 months ago

link

>doesn't want policies will only benefit the super rich

>pro government regulation

pick one. Since regulations prevent the middle class from starting businesses of their own to compete against corporate monopolies.

Governments can increase the tax on the rich all they want, all this will do is make those rich move to a country that wont tax them as severely. This would be devastating to the poor in america, since the top 20% in america pay the majority of all taxes in the country.

There 2 arguments for you.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Do you feel the stagnation of wages in our country as a serious problem?

If workers are not give the funds to afford the products and services business want to sell our consumer economy will collapse.

We have over the last 30 year been pushing all the wealth higher up the bracket. If the wealthy are not willing to spend their money on their own to benifit this country then they will be tax to cover the contributions they refuse to make on their own.

We wouldn't need food stamps, Medicaid, and other social programs if the private sector would pay a living wage.

Faren

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

If you want to drive the wages up you need to bring jobs back to the country you want wages to go up in. Supply and demand is basic economics. In order to increase the worth of a worker you have to either;

(1. increase the demand of that worker.) This can only be done by lowering prices via competition. Raising taxes on the wealthy is just going to be transferred to the costumer base, especially since you want people to buy more.

(2. Reduce the supply of that worker.) By preventing outsourcing to an overpopulated country and by preventing your country's workforce from becoming more populated. You can also alternatively outskill the an overpopulated workforce, this would be done by education*.

*since it is likely that there is overlap in those who want massive increases in workers via illegal immigration and those who want everyone to be provided free education. You will either a. prevent illegals from becoming educated or b. pass the massive increase in workers (thereby lowering wages) to a more skilled workforce. Effectively destroying the middle class and increasing the wage gap.

The falling wages will continue till the demand for workers matches the increasing supply of them.

edit. I would love nothing more than to have everyone wealthy, and no one to need food stamps or government handouts.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Truthfully when has the right ever fought for education? If we don't have public provided education how do we make skilled laborers? There is a staggering amount of jobs that could be filled if Americans had gotten better education at the local level.

And if private industry doesn't want the government to run educating their work force then the private sector has every to record and start their own trade school.

People with resources are the only ones that can effect change in a quick way, so it's ether the private sector doing it on its own or the government stepping in to protect its citizens.

I see no excuse why the private sector is holding back when they have created the wage gap in the first place and has all the money.

Faren

7 years, 9 months ago

link

>Truthfully when has the right ever fought for education? If we don't have public provided education how do we make skilled laborers? There is a staggering amount of jobs that could be filled if Americans had gotten better education at the local level.

I would suggest removing government from the school system. Right now schools can charge whatever they want and they know that the government will pay it. This has driven up costs of education, since again schools know that it will be paid regardless.

I would also point out that you don't need everyone to be skilled labor, when their are lots of unskilled jobs. I only through the educate your entire workforce into a less populated job market as an alternative. I would not suggest abandoning unskilled labor jobs for the reasons I mentioned in my last post. Instead making unskilled labor less populated by foreign workers.

I do agree with you, that education decisions should be handled at a more local level though.

>And if private industry doesn't want the government to run educating their work force then the private sector has every to record and start their own trade school.

This would make since if it were possible to opt out of paying for state sponsored schooling and use that money to pay for a private school. Not many people can afford to pay for multiple schools.

(not sure where companies are involved in this process. The closest thing I can think of would be companies paying to put employees through training. Which they do.)

>People with resources are the only ones that can effect change in a quick way, so it's ether the private sector doing it on its own or the government stepping in to protect its citizens.

>I see no excuse why the private sector is holding back when they have created the wage gap in the first place and has all the money.

I would point out the private sector does not make laws, nor control inflation. They merely buy and sell. I you want more people to create businesses and to reduce the wage gap, you need a middle class. In order to have a middle class you need more start up businesses to create more demand for labor. (see my prior post for more ways to increase wages)

I apologize if this doesn't answer your points. Your reply didn't seem to argue my points and wandered off topic. Where you sleepy when writing this?

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

My point about skilled labor is that there is demand for such workers and companies often have to outsource legal immagrints to fill them cause they can not find Americans smart enough to handle the jobs.

Conservitives have undermined and cut recklessly our public education while promoting private schools that don't have to meet the same standards as they are not regulated the same way.

If we hadn't pulled away from proper funding and involvement to ensure the skills needed for our current employment demand we would have many more Americans with good paying jobs.

As for unskilled trade labor the industries can increase what they spend and will have too if we remove millions of illegal immigrants to be deported just to prevent a disruptuon of services when no one shows up to do the jobs.

We also need to seriously consider automation that will displace a significant portion of low skilled labor in the near future. We need to come up with an answer or there won't be enough workers left to buy the products and that will stall our economy.

I'm just trying to emphasis education and point out conservitives have not done right by this critical part of our society.

And it was late last night on the initial reply.

Faren

7 years, 9 months ago

link

>Conservitives have undermined and cut recklessly our public education while promoting private schools that don't have to meet the same standards as they are not regulated the same way.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

The united states has spent more per student and per gdp than nearly any other country on the planet. We are not under spending.

>If we hadn't pulled away from proper funding and involvement to ensure the skills needed for our current employment demand we would have many more Americans with good paying jobs.

You can not rely solely on highly skilled work. If you do then the value of skilled labor would go down the same way unskilled labor has. Please I already pointed this out, reread my post about how to increase unskilled labor's value and increase wages.

>As for unskilled trade labor the industries can increase what they spend and will have too if we remove millions of illegal immigrants to be deported just to prevent a disruptuon of services when no one shows up to do the jobs.

This I agree with. If you deport all the cheap laborers imported to depreciate unskilled labor wages, companies would indeed have to pay more to keep up with demand.

>We also need to seriously consider automation that will displace a significant portion of low skilled labor in the near future. We need to come up with an answer or there won't be enough workers left to buy the products and that will stall our economy.

You have the technology to automate every job today. It already exists. The reason it is not used is because it is cheaper to higher a human. This is why when people began demanding 15$ and hour minimum wage McDonalds, I think it was, replaced many of their workers with machines.

So long as the technology cost more than the employee, companies will continue hiring. When a job does become cheaper to automate than a person is willing to be hired for that job that company will then automate that job.

>I'm just trying to emphasis education and point out conservitives have not done right by this critical part of our society.

Conservatives are not anti-education, they would be anti-state sponsored education. State sponsored education does not help students, like most things involving large amounts of bureaucracy, it is very inefficient.

Private schooling is well known for providing a better education than public school, this is why the wealthy prefer it over public school.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I would be intrested to see what current levels are now days, data takes awhile to correlate which is why it's for 2012.

As property taxes are a local determined issue each school board will have a variety of financial support. Each community has a save in how much they put in so national averages may not paint a complete picture.

But recent cuts in states like Kansas and the negative charaters assantation the wisconsin gop put out on public educators in general have effected my opinion on that front.

It is more then money but when you vilified for being an educator and have your wages.
slashed and programs cut just to buy a new basketball stadium for a losing nba team you can see why I have doubts.

As for the skilled labor I'm not saying that it's the only thing to focus on, it just there are current needs not being filled. There is demand and it can be filled if local people had the skill set already. It's squandered oportunity that's all.

As for private schools it trust them about as much as I trust private prisons. They can provide better education and many do but without any over sight many also fall flat or are used for profit alone.

We have to ensure everyone has a chance to better themselves, and it's in our own intrest to address the schools private and public that fall off the mark.

RokukeShiba

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

People who hate your guts based on a snap judgement of your entire character and worth as a human being based on a tweet = the embodiment of just consequences, haha.

RokukeShiba

7 years, 9 months ago

link

You can say whatever you want :)

But don't act surprised if people judge you. lol

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Oh hell no, I'm not surprised at all, haha. I'll still call anyone judging me a worthless cunt though, because I'm as free to react as they are XD.

RokukeShiba

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Thats Freedom baby ;3

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

im glad to see you posted this XD love trump, hate trump doesn't matter, lets all at least be intellectually honest.

All i ever here especially from people outside america, is how trump is LITERALLY HITLER! XD

to which i laugh and shake my head in dismay. DX

theirs an extreme left element in the US right now that seems to think that not only launching unfounded character attacks on people but actualy physically assaulting people with different views then you is ok...

I just dont even...

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I'll call an assault an assault, and expect justice for the one that commited the crime.

But when a honest to God neo nazi or clans man gets punched in the head, I can help but feel there still is some small amount of good left in the world.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

the indavidual in question, is kiiiinda a fuck head. Still doesent make him any less protected by the same rights we all enjoy.

I understand the sentiment, but wrong is still wrong. though we do agree on that ^^ i am deeply horrified that not everybody does seem to understand that puching people or maceing them in the face for wareing a MAGA hat is super wrong...

the super left are BECOMING, fascist.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

To be honest I'm surprised we haven't resorted to blood shed at this point. It's horrible to think about but I no longer feel there is any redeeming qualities on the conservitive side of the argument. And if liberals have finally wised up to the fact the right will never take responiblity for their actions or mistake we might just get to that point.

As long conservitives put loyalty to their ideals over the rights of all Americans I will always view them as the enemy. They want the fight I say give it to them and let us be done with it.

Words have failed us all.

Faren

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

>To be honest I'm surprised we haven't resorted to blood shed at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htOj50B7dNk

Who hasn't accepted responsibility for their sides actions? Or does beating a formerly homeless black woman unconscious not count? She is just one of many people who have been left bleeding cause of left-wing violence.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I considered myself to be rather left leening as a moderate untill this point but if the left continues to resort to violence eventually people will wise up to it

Skunks

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

CuriousFerret wrote:

Yes, I too believe in murdering people with dissenting opinions. People who have opposing ideals are a detriment to democracy and should be sent to the slaughterhouse. Go to hell, antifa.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Skunks

My loyalty is to the constitution which is the law of the land. I have willingly stood up and put myself in harms way under a president I didn't trust to defend my people. I will respond to all threats foreign and domestic, without apology.

Opinion and free speak can be had, but I will call out evil when I see it, and nazi are evil.

When the right falls away from the equal application of all rights for all Americans they become a domestic enemy.

If the right wants to fight to over turn the rights of others I will always stand up to oppose them.

WynterSkye

6 years, 10 months ago

link

"My loyalty is to the constitution which is the law of the land"
You are one of the most staunch haters of the Constitution and everything in which is stands, just based off of everything I have read you post in this comment section.

Not only do you not actually care about the people of the nation, you care only for an ideal, that's it. And that ideal is propped up by principles that have gotten more than 100 million people killed and counting.

Drop the bullshit, stop being a fascist and start actually defending the Constitution.

CuriousFerret

6 years, 10 months ago

link

@ WynterSkye

Funny it more often I'm accused of being a communist.

Bitcoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

So if I understand you here, you're saying you want the Nazis and white supremacists to fear for their lives? I can't imagine what else you expect to happen. Surely they'll reach a point where they see the situation as "kill or be killed' and they'll gladly arm themselves and go out on their own terms. Like a cornered animal, they may finally commit the genocide they previously hoped someone else would do, simply because they're so sure they'll die early regardless.

I get that you THINK punching will make them re-think their position, but let me just ask you if you'd do the same. Yeah, I REALLY doubt you would do anything but feel more strongly that you're right, and believe that your political opponents are all savages.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Bitcoon

I don't think they can learn, as I have watched the right vote against their own well being my entire life. They have had the power to improve their own situation by voting in their own intrest for decades now. They can't seem to figure it out and their excuse has always been based off bigotry.

Why should I let them endanger others and myself?

How is that tolerance in allowing them to continue to endanger themselves and others?

The freedom to starve they fight so hard for is no freedom at all.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

So conservatives are not just your enemies, but their own enemies? The problem here is thinking any one side, any one ideology, any one perspective has all the answers. You aren't wise enough to know what is best for society, I'm not, nobody is. The only way we can approach the truth is by dialogue, the constant, unending debate. Being convinced you're right and everybody on the other side is a deluded dope unwittingly starving themselves off is about as arrogant as one could possibly get. It's simply not true that you have a clue about what's best for everybody, because you're a bloody human being.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

My ideology has been formed and evolved for over 200 years by many diffrent people arguing, conceding, fighting, dying, and at times killing to create the standard we hold our government to. I hold no side other then what is there and has been purchased by much sacrifice on all spectrums of politics and beliefs.

It's not perfect, and there are ways to amend it that can be pursued. But until it is changed I have to follow it as I swore to do so.

It's really the only thing of worth in my country at the point in my honest opinion.

Perhaps that makes me a fanatic, but I'd like to think it's the best we can come up with.

And by all means if the right can find three fourth of Congress and the states to back it up then we can change it.

Until then when their views conflict with that document I have no choice but to oppose them.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

What I'm getting here is that you seem to think conservatives don't believe in the constitution.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

How many discrimination bills do they have to put up before others see that fact?

They do not believe in the 14th amendment and openly said so multiply times, they don't not believe in equitible application of the law.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

At this point I think the best I could do is recommend a book called The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It really helped me to understand conservatives better. I was a liberal leftie for 30 years, now I'm a centrist and see that value is in both sides BUT both are needed at the same time as checks against the other, so neither go too far.

Just to make things clear, I think you're a compassionate person and you want to extend love and acceptance towards others, especially the most vulnerable. Well I mostly agree with that sentiment and I honestly don't think we can get by as a society if we don't see our brothers and sisters on the conservative side as just that. Not as fools or scum but as people who have different moral perceptions that have value XP.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

It is difficult to give benifit of the doubt but I can look into the book.

As long as its not like Ayn Rands Manuel on justified exploitation I think I could get through it.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Oh god no, it's by a politically centrist moral psychologist, it isn't pro left or pro right, it's a book which examines the way moral structures work for people across the political spectrum and how people can appear insane to each other.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I'll give it a look.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Additionally, compassion itself is dangerous in 2 ways. First, its an instinct to protect, which is great when you're the parent of a baby, but adults aren't babies and protecting them as though they are prevents them from growing stronger. Secondly, compassion is violent, viciously so, towards any threat perceived to be against the thing protected. Mother bear loves her cubs, but she will tear your face off if you come near them. You see conservatives as a threat to your cubs, the marginalised, and you want to tear their faces off.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

There is instinct involved to a degree.

But a total lack of compassion is just as dangerous.

If we don't give people the tools and instruction they need to carry on theit own, how can we assume they will just figure it out.

We do have an obligation to each other if we want to coexist peacfuly.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Yeah, absolutely, no compassion is definitely undesirable, to put it mildly. It's just that virtues in excess become vices, that's the point I was getting at.

Bitcoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

You're simultaneously arguing against the entirety of Republicans/conservatives, and arguing for committing ideological genocide against anyone who thinks a certain way? I don't know how else to read this comment, given what you're responding to.

"Why should I let them endanger others and myself?"
I'm not even a Republican and what you're saying sounds absolutely insulting to me. Have people just lost the ability to have political disagreements these days?

CuriousFerret

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Bitcoon

Political disagreement will happen politely or rudely, it doesn't matter if there is consensus or not. You don't have to like my beliefs any more then I have to like yours.

Conservitive policy implimented here over the last 30 year has destroyed our economy and the well being of so many of our people. Too many in the party don't belive in the 14th amendment or equitable application of the law.

If our situation continues to detriorate I do fore see violence as the have nots will turn to force to survive.

Our crumbling infustucture and the liberal social programs are the only thing holding it off.

I don't want to see bloodshed but I do belive if we keep going right on policy it will happen.

QuestionMark

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Loyalty to ideals...rights of all americans.
Would you say one of your ideals is americans having rights?

Rights you would violate for the sake of loyalty to your ideals?
Do you protect your ideals by destroying them?
I think you broke logic.

CuriousFerret

7 years, 8 months ago

link

@ QuestionMark

I'm not the one disenfranchising minorities and the poor from being able to vote. Republicans have admitted  Voter ID laws are solely meant to prevent groups that typically vote Democrat are barred from the polls.

If you want proff of ID them the state most make availbe the cards and registration free of charge to nits citezens before they enforce the law to prove it's not discriminating.  Then they can check and I wouldn't mind.

I belive people have the right to own fire arms but the ammendment clearly states it is to be well regulated.  Once such regulation is put into effect I have no problem with it.

If bakers and photographers don't want to service people that don't follow their religion then they should not be a public concern and keep their dealing within their church and freinds.

Conservitive judges have over ruled gop election districts numerous times recently due to blatant gerrymandering.

People are welcomed to free speech but when they turn it into verbal assaults on the grieving widows and orphans of our fallen service members at their funerals or physically take over federal parks and point assault rifles at civil servants they go too far.

I am a patriot and I have served willingly under a conservitive president, and assure you while I despised him I up held his lawful orders.

As long as you apply those rights equitably you have nothing to fear, but I will not compromise on any of those rights just to line the pockets of the rich or place christianity above any other religon as the right wants to do.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

They're not becoming fascist, they are fascist XP. And it's not a few people either, it's millions.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

sadly... I think your right at this point...wasent it Churchill who said when the fascists return they will call themselves anti fascists XD

vicwuff

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Pretty sure the actual neo-nazis aren't backing anyone on the left...

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

your right about that, but antifa is pretty damn fascist ;3

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

How do you figure?

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 8 months ago

link

have you.. not seen them then?

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

Trouble articulating what you're talking about?

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 8 months ago

link

i was saying that antifa is borderline facist, wich is ironic becouse it stands for "anti facists" it's a hyper agressive far left group that sees facism everyware across the political spectrum excepting the far left

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

and I have no idea what you're talking about because the only anti-fascist activity I've seen is protesting twats like Yiannopoulos and punching actual neo-nazi Richard Spencer.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 8 months ago

link

Spencers a fuck head but that still doesent give anybody the right to slug him in the face.

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

I fail to see how punching his stupid head is fascist, though.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 8 months ago

link

well first off were talking about two unrelated things, antifa being facist and richard spencer getting punched in the face by some random guy in a hoodie, are not the same thing.

first off antifa wich ironicly claims to be an anti facist group, is borderline militent and has allredy hurt plunty of innocent people and on more then on ocation as advocated the use of violance against any non left element that goes against there veiws or in any way thrreatens them. Case in point the massive milo proteast.

Love him or hate him, he has a write to speak, trying to shut him up with threats of violance and by starting a damn riot and lightning things on fire is horrible and rather counter to there suposid point. these are the actions of radical facists not peaceful protesters disagreeing with a troll.

AS for Spencer, his political veiws and belifs are irrelavent, You do not have the right to punch sombody in the face. I'm sorry you just dont. Even if he is a horrible person, You cant just slug him. that is both moraly wrong and a crime. Spificly Assualt. IN this case you could argue that punching spencer is not facist as I have no idea what the man who hit him belives. It's not relivent however as I was talking about how antifa is a facist group.

Intersting enough, this group cant seem to see that there own focus on meeting suposid facism with violance is in and of itself facist. Agree with us or your wrong!

It's athoratarian. It's also Hypocritical case in point, again useing Milo, he makes such a good example.

He says thing alot of people dont like he is blunt and often inflamatory. He does this to enflame the more redicules elements of the far left so he can shine a light on them and make fun of it all. Love it or hate it however, he has every right to do so... Antifa would happaly kick his teeth in to shut him up. Freedom of speech, as long as it's speech we like.

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

Re: Milo protestors
afaik the twats who started fires at the California university were suspected to be part of the Black Bloc, a group of anarchists. And I would argue that what you are identifying as fascist behavior is nothing of the sort because it lacks the authoritarian use of institutional power to oppress a disenfranchised minority group.

The actions of some of these leftist protestors is indeed regrettable and I do not by any means endorse it but you completely miss the dynamic of what is happening; it is resistance, not oppression.

If the universities and government start using institutional force to suppress the hateful message of scum like Spencer then I will cede this argument, but until then you are simply painting with a ludicrously broad brush and giving cover to actually bad dudes by bandying around this stupid false equivalency.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 8 months ago

link

couple things, first off, fuck spencer but still let him speak he has that right, second, the the BS idea that in order to be a facist, you have to posses instatutionalized power is exactly that, bullshit. Thats the same argument that non whites cant be racist, simply becouse there not "in power" It's a bullshit false nerrative.

Finaly VIolent resistence to non violent WORDS is completly unacceptable. Wishing to surpess the veiws and words of others with violance and threats, is a facist concept.

For example I think the far lefts sudden cozyness with communism and ass holes like Marx is disgusting and daplorable, but you dont see ME threatening to beat them up over it, this is america, there free to belive in communism or socialism, or whatever concept they like, as long as there not forceing it on others. I dont agree with the neo nazi groups on the right either, But they sure as shit dont have "instatutional power" and there sure as shit still facist.

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

>I think the far lefts sudden cozyness with communism and ass holes like Marx is disgusting and deplorable
And also largely imaginary.

>but you dont see ME threatening to beat them up over it
And how many of these people are advocating for the extermination of groups of people? False equivalency again here.

>But they sure as shit dont have "instatutional power"
Do you even know who Steve Bannon is?

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 8 months ago

link

a borderline jerk whos a member of trumps inncer circle and apparently at one point made some antisemetic comments about a school he diddent want to send his kids to.

your point?

I kinda think your just argueing to play devil's advocate at this point, you've done nothing but challange my opinions.

Good day sir.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 8 months ago

link

Responding to speech with violence isn't uniquely fascist. Fascists sure as hell did that though. The only thing that preserves our civilisation is free speech, that we don't punch people in the head for talking, whatever it is they are saying.

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

Hypothetical: what if they're saying "kill all jews"?

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 8 months ago

link

You argue against them or satirize them. Someone saying "kill all Jews" isn't actually doing it. The response to words is words, you don't need violence unless someone poses a physical threat like a guy pointing a gun at you.

vicwuff

7 years, 8 months ago

link

So then how do you respond to folks like O'Rielly who directly fomented the assassination of doctor for providing abortion services?

Glendening

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Isn't part of your initial point telling people not to generalize then here you are generalizing? Doesn't that seem a might hypocritical?

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Glendening

Where did I say one shouldn't generalize? You can't talk about anything in society without making some generalizations. Wanting to suppress the speech of those one does not agree with is part of the engine of fascism. There are millions of people in the USA who want to see certain views suppressed. I'm making a generalization but I can't fucking individually address every person of the 300 million in the United States.

Glendening

7 years, 9 months ago

link

You come down claiming ad hominem attacks are wrong yet Guilt by association is a form of ad hominem attack. Grouping millions of people you disagree with as fascists could be seen as such by an outside observer. There for that would suggest you are doing the exact thing you think others are bad for doing.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Glendening

That implies I am responsible for how other people interpret the things I say, which is not something I believe in XP. That millions of people believe in an ideology with fascist qualities is an observation, I'm not attacking individuals with insults in order to get them to shut the hell up because I can't argue my own case. That's what this is about, responding to personal attacks on oneself with the same strength, rather than apologizing and hoping to god they'll leave you alone, which never works. Any more ludicrous holes you think you can poke or are you done?

Glendening

7 years, 9 months ago

link

You may not be responsible for how other people interpret the things you say but that doesn't mean they will not. Freedom of speech is not freedom from what you say having consequences.

Considering the definitions of fascism one could make the same argument for both sides of the political spectrum but just because you see examples that could be grouped within this ideology that doesn't make them the same as the ideology. You might want to go for Authoritarian or Totalitarian as your definition for I don't feel that Authoritarian Nationalism (fascism) best describes those on the left whom you see trying to oppress the speech of others they find detestable.

Personally I think that calls for genocide should be considered the same as direct threats and thus not protected speech under the first amendment. Would you say this makes me a person trying to suppress the speech of others.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Glendening

Never said one should be free from consequences. Talking about genocide isn't genocide. I want people who have genocidal beliefs to be able to say them. First, so I know who they are and can confront them openly, second because driving people underground makes them more dangerous not less. You beat bad ideas by discussing them, not pretending they don't exist.

Glendening

7 years, 9 months ago

link

And this is where I disagree. I don't feel that someone who thinks murdering millions of people can or should simply be conversated with as if it was some respectable idea worthy of debate. I'll share with you a comment that I think makes a good point on the subject.

"To suggest that Nazism is a difference of opinion and that stopping it invites a slippery slope is hard to wrap my head around. If I were to plot to kill your mother, write papers about how great it would be to kill your mother, to create a group with the purpose of encouraging others to kill your mother, and seek to create by means of violence a new government within US territory that is founded on the principle that your mother is subhuman and should be killed would you say that is just a disagreement? Like we disagree about whether or not your mother should be murdered and whether or not murdering her is good for the world?"

Drakue

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Here's to watching that whole shitshow from across the pond, eh?

AquariusOtt

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Drakue

Hell, I'm enjoying the shitshow now. Reading political Twitter hashtags are legitimately popcorn-worthy entertainment.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

honestly im not a fan of trump XD though he's not 10% of the horrible crap the left seems to think he is...

that being said, the man needs to have his twitter turned OFF XD

AquariusOtt

7 years, 9 months ago

link

If anything, he's hilarious for the memes. Very sad.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

All hail the glorious Meme Emperor

mudpaws

7 years, 9 months ago

link

hmmm Obama care my med's are  free and some  i pay only $17.00 for .

hmmm  Trump care my med's are  $400.00 and up .

hmmm Obama care any time i go to a hospital for emergency's it's free or $10.00.

hmmm Trump are  any time i go to a  hospital for emergency's  it's  $1000. and up , oh but you'll get a tax brake of $100.

um hope people are smart .

Faren

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ mudpaws

First of all trump hasn't even made a healthcare plan, there was ryancare that was hated by trump supporters and was shot down hard for being a reskin of obamacare.

Also, obamacare is not FREE. It is costing someone alot of money, if not you, then someone else.

mudpaws

7 years, 9 months ago

link

um yeah he was blabbing about it for a log time that his healthcare will be far better by giving a tax brake on any medical it was all over the TV news and his own commercials on TV.... sooo yeah .

and yeah It is costing someone a lot of money the pharmaceutical companies stocks they need to keep up their billions .

Faren

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ mudpaws

Pay attention to the news. NO new healthcare bill was passed. Paul Ryan recently proposed his own healthcare bill, and that was shot down (thank goodness). Trump saying he will make a better healthcare system doesn't mean he has put one instantly into law. He said he would reform healthcare before he was even president.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ mudpaws

Faren is correct on both counts. also meany republicans voted NO on "trumpcare" it was a bad reskin...

I have my issues with obamacare but i think the plans to make changes to it to fix some of those issues, will satisfy me, I dont think we need to throw it out.

fining people who dont want to buy a government provided product however, is reprehensible. that has to go no matter what before i can accept any form of healthcare reform.

AquariusOtt

7 years, 9 months ago

link

It doesn't matter if you're for or against the guy, can we all just agree that Donald Trump is an asshole and he bathes in the salt of the triggered?

Still, it felt satisfying hearing him cutting down both establishment Republicans and Democrats who were just trapping us in a loop again and again. He is definitely a populist/thirdparty running in one of the two major ones, like how Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders ran as a Libertarian and a Socialist respectively. For those who don't know, if you're running for office under a third party and not under Republican or Democrat in the United States, society is very much against your favor.

Was it a dangerous risk to take? Most definitely, but hey: we made an internet meme president so we were asking for it. Personally, I'm just going to enjoy the 4 year long shitshow because the media still hasn't learned that any publicity is good publicity.

RokukeShiba

7 years, 9 months ago

link

well he is just robbing us blindly so yay?

AquariusOtt

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Eh, I argue every US president within the past 20-30 years has been doing that, they just have a different scapegoat. Do I agree with a lot of what Trump says, especially about the bullshit with media and political polarization? Yes. Should he have become president? Definitely not, there were FAR better choices for President. Still, the American people decided to choose between, as South Park puts it, "a giant douche and a turd sandwich." So really all the American people are to blame.

Also, I'm seeing people claiming that they're unfollowing Roarey now for being two-sided and supporting "racist, homophobic" voters, as if ALL of Trump's voters are voting because they want to ban gay marriage and black people. Just another example of people characterizing their political opponents as ridiculous stereotypes supported by the loud minority.

What a world we live in, where the decision between an orange goblin and a pander bear (POKEMON GO?! REALLY?) literally costs you your life.

lolLNno

7 years, 7 months ago

link

Trump is very literally robbing taxpayers, though.

- Takes every single weekend to go golfing at Mar-a-Lago, for which taxpayers pay for the travel both ways and for the increased security.
- Entry fee for Mar-a-Lago doubled after he won the election and began referring to it as the "Winter White House" to draw more members in.
- Melania refuses to move into the White House, so taxpayers pay for the increased security at Trump Tower and the surrounding area.
- His sons are still running the Trump business, and taxpayers pay for increased security everywhere they go, including overseas trips.

As a tax paying American, it absolutely sickens me that my hard earned money is being siphoned away so a millionaire and his family can better themselves and their business. Especially when said millionaire/businessman won't show his current tax returns so we can see exactly where his conflicts of interest lie, especially overseas -- a partial return from ten years ago simply doesn't cut it when we're talking about what's going on in 2017.

Have other presidents in the past done shady shit? Absolutely, yes. But Trump is so blatantly fucking open about it and his dumbassed supporters can't see it. He's not even a con man -- he's the guy who calls your grandma and says he can fix her problems with her loans if she sends him $500 today.

And that's not even going into every other horrific thing he's either done or attempted to do since taking office. The fucker can't even bother to remember the names of people he's speaking to or do some basic research on their countries' histories before trying to correct them on it. It's only been five months of Trump and things are already going to shit. We're not gonna last four years.

AquariusOtt

7 years, 7 months ago

link

@ lolLNno

Wow, this shit is still going on? It's been over a month.

I recommend doing your own research that ISN'T aided by mainstream media. Of course MSM is going to show all the bad because 1) they don't like having been proved wrong about Trump not having a chance at presidency and 2) most MSM aren't in it for the facts, just money. If pissing on Trump causes controversy, of course they're going to do it. Now's the best time to work at CNN, Fox News, or Buzzfeed.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Trump is largely just a symptom of a bigger problem facing the US. You've touched on some of it already.

It is my hope his 4 years will set things on a better track, weather by mistake or design. Either trump will work or he will fuck up but either way it should serve as a wake up call.

at least I hope so.

RevampSkunk

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I'm just waiting for America to clash and fall at this point. Too much bullshit and not enough actual progress.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

i'm afraid were a bit more robust then that =p this isent the first time theres been political discord XD infact this happens every election cycle it's just not useualy this transparent or sensationalized.

it also doesnt help that this is the first election cycle i can remember where people have completly demonized each other based off the party there a member or lack there of, or who they voted for.. never mind the WHY! it must be awesome to see things in a childish black and white but thats not reality. I can honestly say it worrys me that some people who have known others for years, can suddenly say "Your opinion differes from me on this point you are now a monster"

this theres creepy denile of reality sweeping america right now, and if anything destroys us it will be people huddleing in safe spaces and plugging there ears to the sound of all the explosions XD

No I wouldent worry about it America has plunty of life left in it. in fact the elements that are cuaseing the most issue are allready starting to canbilize themselves. they cant even agree on what they disagree with XD

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Would you consider the collapse of the USA to be progress?

RevampSkunk

7 years, 9 months ago

link

"	RoareyRaccoon wrote:
	Would you consider the collapse of the USA to be progress?

Yes, honestly. At the rate the states are going, if we don't collapse from our massive debt, we'll end up being in a war that will cost it dearly. At this point, it's inevitable, and given the history of how America truly doesn't give a fuck about anything but money, I'm preparing for the downfall.

If I had any investable money, I'd look into Investing into China or Russia soon, but that's a side note though.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

That's all you need to say, haha. Dont fix a damaged wall in a house, burn it to the ground.

RevampSkunk

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Well, if there were any signs the house is worth saving other than loss of money, then it would be worth it to save it.

I'm curious, what's your take on it Roarey?

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

It's worth saving because the lives of 300 million people depend on it. That destruction is not progress. That America is a centrally important country in the world economy. That it is the main bastion of the west. That people who think it isnt worth saving are individuals who think they know what is best for an entire country when they dont even know whats best for themselves; theyre fallible, full of shit human beings like everyone else on the planet and DO NOT know best, because nobody does. That truth is approached through debate, discourse and the clashing of opposing arguments, not by one side dominating the other.

NikitaTheStag

7 years, 9 months ago

link

When an entire group of people does the equivalent of plugging their ears and going 'lalalalalalaaa I can't hear you' when bringing up issues about a minority's human rights, immigration, global warming or whatever the hot topic of the day is; Then proceed to bring no viable facts to the table other than their own beliefs and continue to belittle and hate on anyone they deem not worthy rather than putting themselves in their shoes. No, I will not listen to what they have to say; not when they are actively working against another group of people.

I just find it ironic you're speaking of the left when you mention nasty, vindictive, bigoted, judgmental people after the far right pulls shit like this
http://www.metro.us/_internal/gxml!0/r0dc21o2f3vste5s7...
or supporting a man who bans entire countries from entering the states, only because he don't like em.

Yes, There are shitty people on the far left. I totally accept that. I'll argue my ass off against them too. But when you look at trump supporters and all the racist, homophobic bullshit that they pull in the name of free speech, is that really a debate? It's hard to argue with people that are set in their ways and no matter what you say to them will not change their minds. Why would you want to support a group that would hate SO MANY people for just who they are.

I apologize, but this is where I stop following you.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ NikitaTheStag

Okie dokie XP.

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Isn't it amazing how, in trying to prove you wrong, he proved you right?

RevampSkunk

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ NikitaTheStag

If you unfollow or block a previous friend or associate just for a viewpoint that is not directly life threatening, I.e. Isis, then I'd strongly consider taking some time out to look at yourself and do some soul searching; if I were you.

You're not worth anyone's time if you pull stuff like this.

NikitaTheStag

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I'm not blocking for having a different viewpoint. I would actually love to have an adult conversation about this. But look at the responses I'm getting. That's not a discussion. None of the points I brought up were acknowledged. I got an 'okie dokie XD'. Not one of them responded to anything I had to say except when I mentioned I thought they thought differently than that. I'll happily unblock all of them if they want to have an adult conversation. But if I'm speaking to someone who can only talk and not listen, I'm gonna block and I'm gonna go about my day.
Now I can see that you personally think differently than me. If you feel like having a conversation with me, then feel free. But if you want me to listen to what you have to say, I expect you to do the same.

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

An understandable hatred of SJWs does not disqualify Trump's rich warranting of the treatment he is receiving. Donnie's record of 'deplorable' behavior goes back decades. He is not an innocent victim in this.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I don't have anything to remark about what treatment he does or doesn't deserve. I simply like that he responds to it with as much venom or even more so than the attacks he receives. Which is good. Because people who can only scream at you are bastards.

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

The problem is, he also responds with tremendous venom to the most diplomatic and friendly criticisms. Donnie is a male who cannot stand correction, period. His ego is so tremendous and his mentality so diseased that he considers any challenge to his word as nothing less than a declaration of open war. There is no room allowed for any other response. He is violently allergic to even the suggestion that he is not spectacularly and infallibly right one hundred percent of the time.
And the Deplorables have placed this unstable basket-case in the single most examined and criticized office our Republic ever invented. This issue is far greater than some childish retaliation against SJWs in all their preachy self-righteousness (a trait the SJW haters also embrace, I do not hesitate to mention). This psycho now has the Football and the Button, when he should never be allowed even in the same room.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Yeah, er, you just replied to me with a list of wild, insulting definitions of who Trump is and who his supporters are. I'm not having a go at you, I just legitimately love irony.

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

And you responded to me with the same kind of one-sentence dismissals most-all partisans use when they really have nothing else in their quivers. I have not typed anything that is not entirely confirmable by a cursory review of the generous evidence available. You can't have a go at me, because your position is inferior.
My long-standing policy is to ignore any media-driven stampede to judgement. The Monica Lewinsky Circus taught me that much. Rather, my criticism of Trump is based entirely upon his own observable performance since the 1980s. He has always been something of a cartoon supervillain, a real-life Lex Luthor really except for the obvious cosmetic difference. He loves positive attention and public adoration, he loves showing off and talking all about himself. And then in his public performances he is so much of that classic, stereotypical fast-talking huckster of a New York City salesman it's painful for me to watch. And people bought his shtick. By the millions. Incomprehensible.
"I didn't hear his ideas or character being taken seriously." Many millions very much took his ideas and character seriously, and given his public antics, which played far more like a pro-wrestling heel promo than a political speech, such condemnations were thrown his way as what he deserved. Those antics also garnered the support of those millions who wanted to hear exactly the things he said, which was Trump's sole motive in the first place: playing to a Republican audience whose sole qualification for a candidate was that the candidate agreed with them.
And the Deplorables continue to parrot the claim that Trump is not a politician!

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

My position, pro free speech, anti screaming insults instead of debate, is inferior? I'll be honest, I don't want to read your comment, it's boring XP.

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Free speech means that as you submit your positions to public consumption, you also submit them to public review. And that includes public judgement and public rejection. Say whatever you want, because everyone else can too, and will answer whatever assertion with that response they deem appropriate. There is no Constitutional protection against being offended... or being challenged.
"anti screaming insults instead of debate", and this coming from a supporter of Donald Trump, the King of The Reactive Tweet. And from one who just mentioned irony as well, with no sense of self-awareness! Delightful!
You do realize of course that so much of your attitude parallels that of the SJWs you allege to despise.
"I don't want to read your comment, it's boring." Of course not. After all, entertaining you is what Donnie is here for.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

No I just find your comments dull, you can criticize and review to your hearts content, I haven't blocked you or shut you up or shamed you. I've simply expressed my lack of desire to engage with you and I DON'T FUCKING HAVE TO. There.

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

If "defending the Deplorables" means executing a strategic withdrawal, fine. Joseph Joestar wasn't above the tactic.
"Then I have the honor of bidding you a good evening." --- Sam Houston

lolLNno

7 years, 7 months ago

link

You can't call yourself pro-free-speech after saying people who hold protests are fascists.

"If you want to see fascism in the west, you need only look at a university campus or a protest of the outcome of a democratic election. Labelling all unwanted speech as hate speech, deciding those who utter it don't deserve careers or social lives and turn our public discourse into an insult-slinging festival of complete garbage. I have but one message for SJW's: kiss my ass and go read some books."

I'd also like to point out the following double standards:

- Don't censor people, they have the right to free speech
BUT
- Don't protest things that you're opposed to, especially vocally

- Labeling all unwanted speech as hate speech is wrong
BUT
- Protesters and university students are fascists for expressing their opinions

- People who express unwanted speech shouldn't be silenced, vilified, and insulted
BUT
- SJWs need to shut up and go away because they're stupid, uneducated idiots

You claim to be an impartial, unbiased voice of reason calling for people to just look at facts and not react emotionally, but everything you've typed here speaks to an agenda -- and it's not an agenda of impartiality.

Let's just ignore everything else Trump is doing. Trying to rob millions of their health care. Wasting millions, possibly billions at this point, of dollars on his weekend vacations and three separate homes. Gradually alienating America from the rest of the world with overly-aggressive, xenophobic foreign policies and the social tact of a lifelong shut-in. Appointing what is quite possibly the least qualified cabinet in history. Shutting down the EPA and easing restrictions on corporations intended to prevent harm to the environment. Cozying up to DUTERTE, a man who is currently committing genocide in the Phillipines.

Yeah, let's just ignore all that and focus on the fact that people are calling him names. That's the real issue behind Trump's presidency -- people aren't being nice to him.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 7 months ago

link

@ lolLNno

I don't claim no bias or impartiality, never have. I don't say protests should be illegal. If you want to argue with me, try not setting up a ridiculous straw man. Pointing out that people protesting the result of a democratic election is fascist is not the same thing as saying protests should be banned. I don't censor speech by criticising it or pointing out the flaws and hypocrisies in what people say. You come in here having read fucking nothing of what I've actually said and rabbit on at me about having an agenda? I'm not pro Trump, I'm pro telling people who label you with insults rather than address your actual arguments to fuck off. I don't know how you expect to look like you have a clue by making snap judgements about me as a person based on zero attempt to even comprehend what I've said. You're exactly the kind of fuckwit this cartoon makes fun of.

RokukeShiba

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I don't like SJW left and right versions.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

theres wackos on both sides.

JakeDaMaus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

But muh feels X3

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

You know what I love? I love it when people say stuff like, "...refuse to accept proven sciences to justify horrible policy..."

It shows such a lack of understanding of science. Science proves nothing. It supports things. Nothing is EVER settled. And you know what? It doesn't matter. You can simply repeat the same work the scientists did to see if you come up with anything different. That's how the Scientific Method works.

But when you try to shut down debate because "it is proven science", this smacks of dogma.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

It is dogma yes, which is simple to see because people start out arguing their position assuming certain things are already given facts. Like starting with the proposition that all conservatives are imperialist morons and acting like this is something that everybody knows, haha. They're fuckin' idiots, of course I can't debate with them, they're horrible people, why would you want to debate with them? Christ above.

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

You know, I've often gotten a bad impression of you from the things you've said, but here, yeah, you are spot on. Thank you.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Hahaha I don't blame you, I've only become slightly less of a moron in the past 12 months.

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

LOL!!! And you don't take yourself as seriously. This is a good sign.

dropNchop

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I don't support extremism; Political, Social, Religious or otherwise. If there is one thing that can help this country heal, it's the bold idea that we should let reason and logic dictate our social and political lives. Let's drop all this right and left bull and base out governance on research. I agree that our system is broken, though I don't think beyond repair and we can do this if we work as a team. large government and local government have their place. It isn't just bad ideas that keep government from working, but the bad idea that we can't be wrong.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ dropNchop

I would heartily welcome government policy based on actual research and data, absolutely. I think that would kick ass XP.

Kavukamari

7 years, 9 months ago

link

the combined-consciousness of the various parties about can't tell the difference between satire and honesty, so i wouldn't be surprised if people got mad at you anyway

JakeDaMaus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

"When an entire group of people does the equivalent of plugging their ears and going 'lalalalalalaaa I can't hear you' when bringing up issues about a minority's human rights, immigration, global warming or whatever the hot topic of the day is; Then proceed to bring no viable facts to the table other than their own beliefs and continue to belittle and hate on anyone they deem not worthy rather than putting themselves in their shoes. No, I will not listen to what they have to say; not when they are actively working against another group of people.

I just find it ironic you're speaking of the left when you mention nasty, vindictive, bigoted, judgmental people after the far right pulls shit like this
http://www.metro.us/_internal/gxml!0/r0dc21o2f3vste5s7...
or supporting a man who bans entire countries from entering the states, only because he don't like em.

Yes, There are shitty people on the far left. I totally accept that. I'll argue my ass off against them too. But when you look at trump supporters and all the racist, homophobic bullshit that they pull in the name of free speech, is that really a debate? It's hard to argue with people that are set in their ways and no matter what you say to them will not change their minds. Why would you want to support a group that would hate SO MANY people for just who they are.

I apologize, but this is where I stop following you."

Jesus H. Christ, mate, you sure know how to make hypocrites come out of the woodwork X3. Oh the doubly irony of this. It's more popcorn worthy than the usual cancer you see on Twitter or Tumblr. I can't debate you, just because you don't agree with me or my feelings. What's worse this person has the temerity to say I'm unfollowing you because Trump's supporters pull off racist homophobic and bigoted things in the name of free speech. Obviously this person doesn't know what free speech is XD. This is a response worthy of an SJW My feelings Trump yours and I try to throw you under the bus because you support some of what Trumpb says therefore you're supporting bigotry racism and homophobia. Don't stop expressing your opinions, because these kinds of posts make somebody show their true colors

RevampSkunk

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ JakeDaMaus

I agree with you 100%

RathMutatio

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Eh. Follow whatever politic affinity you like, just as long as you are kind and have good intentions.
Keep them to yourslef if they are harmful, I feel.

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I should add at this late date, that the Obamans hated me as well, when I kept telling them how electing a first-term Junior Senator to the POTUS was not a good idea, and then history goes and proves me right. Partisans hate being challenged, which is precisely why I do it.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Thats my favorite part about all this XD

there are "elements" of the left that think Obama was the second comeing of christ! or might as well have been XD

People can say whatever they like about trump (though I would prefer it be true and not just parroting buzzwords and bullshit) I think he's more then a bit of a jerk. Obama however, was no fucking saint =p So im not at all surpised you cought shit for DAREING to speak out against our lord and savior Obama X3

Hell I voted for the prick twice, though mostly becouse I found his competition...unpleasant...

truth be told i've seen and voted in 4 elections now and in all of them I unhappily voted for the Lesser of two evils...I am lagit sick of that. Why is it so damn impossible to get an honest to god good candidate into a position to actualy win?

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

I also remember how much spite and resentment the rightie media (esp. Fox News) hurled at Obama's election, after their own boy GWB tanked so badly, despite the right's consistent and loud insistence that Georgie had been hand-picked by God himself and anointed by the tears of Baby Jesus to be the very best President in the history of everything everywhere ever. It was also Fox News who started the howl that Obama was the worst POTUS EVAR...about a month into his first year in office.
So yeah, partisans: Reliable Suppliers Of Unintented Comedy Since Forever.
Also, politics is a hideously messy and ugly business, really. You do need something of a monster to deal with this shit correctly. Saints don't belong in capitols.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

probobly very true... especialy when it comes to the media XD I Sertenly dont agree with meny things the "God Emperor" likes to say but, the media has become bloated by capital interests and biese...

I'm all for takeing as meny shots at any media outlet, they should be as heavily scrutinized as they "claim" to scrutinze the facts they use.

I want honest, real media. Journalistic integrity died a long time ago :(

TheAtomicDog

7 years, 9 months ago

link

"Journalistic integrity" is a great social unicorn but really that's all it ever was.
Things are not as bad now as when America was founded, actually. During the Constitutional Period most-all the media (%99.44 print) was owned by and used to promote special political interests. Objective news reporting just did not exist. Things got better gradually, but please remember that all media are owned and run by people, who all have their own agendas whether we like it or not. The classic story-telling archetype of the "crusading newspaper man" is cemented firmly in reality.

Namey

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Ad-hominem is spouted by both sides of the argument, as are their half-baked opinions. And in the world of click-bait headlines and media circuses (London's bridge attack has practically vanished already), the culturally dormant will usually only see what's plastered in front of them, or espoused by their favourite celebrity. And that is quickly overshadowed by the following day's new headline. CLICK HERE TO SEE TRUMP'S 2005 TAX RETURN!!!!! or IS TRUMP ACTUALLY A FASCIST?! or 10 Reasons You Should Be In An Open Marriage. (Note: The first few links for the articles when searched were for Washington Post/Huffington Post, yes that includes the open relationship one.)

As an aside in relation to the travel ban, at least here in Australia, the national travel advisory outright shows http://imgur.com/a/pf0W2 for countries in the Middle East (it has looked very similar to that since at least 2015). And if you've gone to one of those countries without good reason, you can bet your ass you're going to be getting investigated/monitored already. And it should be that way, too. Middle-Eastern and Muslim youth are heading over there after becoming radicalized online, or by their peers, and joining ISIS. The safety of a country's citizens *should* be more important than the feelings of people who aren't known to that government or its citizenry.

BlaueRatte

7 years, 9 months ago

link

What would the world be without red-headed buzzword slingers? Discussions about reason aren't as easy as simply calling your folks bigots and locking yourself in your safe space echo chamber. Let them divide themselves. I salute to you, deplorable cosplayer.

Leilong

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I don't like the guy and I have my reasons but for better or worse, he is the president of the country. All we can do is prepare for the worse as best we can and hope for the best

dropNchop

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Leilong

Trump might be a blessing in disguise for the Dems and get them to do the one thing that they always seem to fail at, show up for midterm elections.

Cubba

7 years, 9 months ago

link

This pic reminds me of this one time my bf was laying on the bed in a provocative pose while happening to wear that shirt...

Cadmus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I personally do not like Trump, and I believe he is an impotent and incapable leader, but I do understand why some people voted for him. That's one of the most difficult things to do, but to truly understand any issue fully you have to look at it from both sides, and that includes why people vote the way they do.

I agree that insult slinging isn't the way to go, and one reason why our political system is so FUBARed is that both sides don't seem to even try to get along, at least in general. The truth often hurts, and no-one wants to be wrong, but sometimes you have to sit down and just look at the possibility that what you want, or what you believe in, isn't right.

I think that's something everyone, ESPECIALLY politicians, need to learn how to do.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Cadmus

I suspect he's not up to the job but I can't really say until he's actually been doing it for a while XP. I mean Obama has helped Iran with its nuclear program, so Trump is gonna have to do insanely badly to top that.

Cadmus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

True, hindsight is 20/20 after all. The first 100 days have been a pretty bad start, but we still have a long time to go. I believe that people can change, especially if the accept what I mentioned above. With Trump it's probably a (very) long shot, but who knows?

I'm not sure about your claim on Obama, but if true it'd be extending that long, sad track record America has of running into other people's countries and poking everything in sight.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Cadmus

Oh I dunno if it's a sad track record. Saving East Timor from outright massacre, deposing a homicidal dictator in Iraq, fighting people who want the world to be under Sharia and envision a White House with an Islamic flag flying above it. Those things are rather awesome. America is also the first country in human history to end slavery and then fight around the world to end it everywhere else. Also awesome. America has a bad track record, as does every nation on the face of the earth, but it has also done fantastic things too. Helping a country with a maniac religious fascist for a leader, who openly despises the USA, to make progress on its nuclear ambitions, tho, is suicidal. That's up there with the worst, most anti-American things any US president has ever done. Serving your country by arming its enemies? Jesus.

Cadmus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Those are good points.

StarRinger

7 years, 8 months ago

link

I came in here just as a "Okay, here's something you disagree with, let's read the discourse and see if we can increase our understanding of other people's viewpoints without needing to engage."

But I want to jump in anyway to say that the USA is not the first to ban slavery and then fight to stop it elsewhere. The Roman Empire did it first.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Cadmus

I agree with you, I honestly diddent want to vote trump at all but i found hillery when compareing the facts to be a far more flawed candidate. Burnie never made it all the way to the election either...but I can UNDERSTAND why people voted for trump or hillery for me it was damage control for others maybe they actualy support trump. it's never a black and white issue.

PantyRanger

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Boy, you've poked the hornets nest. Hope you're ready for the outcome.
But, if you want my opinion? Not a good idea to go political on a website dedicated to people wanking it to anthropomorphic animals.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ PantyRanger

Yes, I'm ready for whatever happens, or doesn't happen XP. IB is an art site, it can be for porn or clean, this is a furry cartoon image, that it expresses an opinion doesn't mean it isn't art, haha. I'm a political person, I love politics and philosophy, I love to express my views on these things and a great place to do that is in my own art galleries XP.

PantyRanger

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I'm not one to get in the way of a person's desire to create what they want.
It's more so a willingness to accept the consequences and having a good buffer.

The political climate is hotter then the sun right now, but if you're ready for that, who am I to stop you.
I may disagree with you on something, but I'm all for the freedom to express, debate and criticize it.
I'm still watching. Honestly, I'm curious to see how this all works out for ya, now.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ PantyRanger

Oh aye, I accept the consequences of what I say, absolutely XP. All I expect is that anyone who decides to fuck with me accepts the fact that I will 100% fuck with them back.

viperious

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ PantyRanger

Did you just say Climate? #Triggered

viperious

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Honestly, I had written Trump off the moment he put someone who was in the pockets of global oil companies as the head of the EPA. If that doesn't scream conflict of interest, what does?

That's it really, almost all of the things I have seen come from the Trump administration has been just a pile of Conflict of Interest; and I don't see how the right can't see that?

The supporters? Don't even get me started on the Trump supporters. There must be somethign seriously wrong with you if you don't see a problem with the current president tweeting out lies, going to a golf club more times than the previous president had gone in a year (Yes, that thing that the right wing kept complaining about), giving his duaghter housing in the whitehouse, without security clearance, and without an actual job title, repealing Obama Care and replacing it with something systematically worse (Also, if you just repealed obamacare and didn't replace it without something, people would still get more coverage then they would on Trumpcare).

Before I go into an actual rant on the many topics on Trump and his supporters, I'll just finish up by saying that I don't hate the right (Seeing as I'm only left leaning), I hate the alt right and SJWs equally. Saying all of the Left are SJWs is like saying that all of the Right is like Alex Jones (THEY'RE TURNING THE FRIGGING FROGS GAY). And from what I've seen, anyone who still supports Trump is either delusional, misinformed on facts (or so informed on alternative facts that they refuse to believe anything else), or just ignorant to what is actually going on. A lot of Trump supporters STILL believe that the Bowling Green massacre actually happened.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ viperious

Oh god XD Alex Jones XD theres an interesting man. I cant tell if he is crazy all the way to the bank, or if he's actually CRAZY! XD

viperious

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

But do you see the point I'm trying to make?

Also, I like how Roarey has specifically avoided my comment, as if he has nothing to comment on, even though he claims to get very political.

hdmi

7 years, 9 months ago

link

He's someone that i'd like to drink a couple beers with lmao.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ hdmi

just make sure he doesnt suspect the bar tender of being a lefty cummunist spy for the russians, trying to spike his beer with estrogen =p XD

Hornybunny

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Both of them were bad choices, semi-successful businessman or corrupt lifelong politician, but they were the only ones we had. third party candidates couldn't win on their best year and just help one of the two bad choices win.

EverestDragon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Well said.

I still disagree with republican policy, however the left-wing dominated media did indeed focus entirely too much on shaming an unshamable man, rather than the actual issues. I kinda love how the Trump presidency has revealed the vitriolic, hate-filled side of so many left-leaning people.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ EverestDragon

It is my hope the trump presidency will be a painfully bright light we can all learn from yes. As i keep saying im more of a left leaning centerist, so IMO trumps the best thing to ever happen to the left.

Glendening

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I love how your comment starts as "Don't generalize people you disagree with." then you go on to generalize people you disagree with.

mouse24

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

This may be a surprise to some people, but there those of us that don't like rump because of his policy's. His healthcare reform would have caused many like my self who have incurable conditions to lose the health care we need. His VP is not only pro Conversion Therapy (witch has not only only been de bunked, but also proven extremely harmful) but has put in to law the right for any business or government entity to refuse service to on religious grounds in the state of Indiana.. This includes not only private shops but also hospitals, mental health services, police, fire and EMT services. I could go one but my point here is that there are legit reasons to not only dislike him but worried about his effect on US.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ mouse24

I agree XP. I've no problem whatsoever with people arguing about things, its essential; I simply take issue with people shutting folk down by calling them shit like racist instead of actually arguing a specific point, haha.

mouse24

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Well huge part of problem is that evidence suggests he is those things and his policy's reflect that. Currently in the US politically speaking, it seems to be "your side is wrong therefore my side is right". Its been building for years and this is just its logical result.

Lars

7 years, 9 months ago

link

No matter the false accusations made against Trump, he is still a corrupt businessman who has fucked up a tremendous amount since his short time in office.

You hand on heart Trump supporters calling all negative press fake news, that will only get you so far until you have to face reality.

KevinSnowpaw

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Lars

I dont think there are actualy that meny hand on heart supporters here to be honest, i've seen plunty of trump critisizen. you CAN vote for a person becouse you disliked the alternative more, that doesent make you massively pro trump you know =p

the whole point behind this journal and this art seems to be, say what you like about trump but leave the buzzword warfare at home. I for one am sick and tired of seeing discussion and debate cunducted like were on a grade school play ground. instead of facts we see charicter attacks, instead of reason we see racist, facist Islamophobic.

these words are starting to lose there meaning becouse there being misspplied and over used.

Lars

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I don't disagree with anything you have said.

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

"	NikitaTheStag wrote:
	Yup. Cause I come here to look at art and post my own. When you start calling me names instead of actually debating, or responding with 'okie doke' I can see it's not getting anywhere and there's no point for me to stick around while 7 of you keep filling up my inbox when I'm done talking. So yes. And anyone who continues to respond to this thread is also getting blocked.

"Yup. Cause I come here to look at art and post my own."

That right there is where the post should have ended. He isn't following Roarey any longer, unless he is lying about that. The proper response would be to say your peace and move on. But he doesn't. He sticks around and responds to just about everything. There is a name for that: trolling.

"When you start calling me names instead of actually debating, or responding with 'okie doke' I can see it's not getting anywhere and there's no point for me to stick around while 7 of you keep filling up my inbox when I'm done talking."

You're done talking? Wow...you're awfully noisy for someone who is done talking.

"And anyone who continues to respond to this thread is also getting blocked."

Again, proper response is to delete and move on, not block. You only prove Roarey's point by blocking.

JakeDaMaus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

I should prolly point out that this person already made an arse of him/herself with another comment

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ JakeDaMaus

I know, but this is so much fun. :)

JakeDaMaus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Well, what do you expect from furries? XP

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ JakeDaMaus

True, true. Drama appears to be our middle name. :)

JakeDaMaus

7 years, 9 months ago

link

It's our motherfucking MO 😂

Risu

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

I don't really like Drump either, but to be fair, I think the Liberals are unfortunately discrediting themselves too. They are responding to the situation with hatred & resentment, which gives their "enemies" exactly what they want, therefore giving them even more power to control others. Remeber the "Occupy Movement" from afew years ago? It suffered the same fate becos' it was hijacked by teenagers who used it as an excuse to get away with flipping off cops.

I think if Liberals used their minds as much as their feelings to make decisions, I bet they wouldn't be as "deplorable". Beleieve me, I used to be waaay left-leaning; until I realised that ya can't fight fanaticism with fanaticism and expect to make the world a better place.

That's just my take on it.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Risu

I think its more that conservatives are sick to death of being the villain and theyre fighting back with votes.

Risu

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Perhaps, altho' Conservatives ain't perfect either. They're so convinced that their shit stinks less than everyone else's, simply becos' they claim to have the Christian God on their side, and therefore they couldn't possibly do wrong <.<"

Or atleast that's what it seems like to me. Pardon me if I'm wrong.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Risu

Haha fuck no, nobody is perfect. I think two things, we need each other and deserve each other.

RandomUserPerson

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I agree, but I have to say there's a problem here: neither side wants to open dialogue.

First, and I have no idea how this happened, there's a major belief on both sides that Science and Religion are in open conflict. Science is undermining God and is thus wrong to alot of conservatives and a bunch of liberals view Religion as a backwards belief system that is the source of all our ills. Both are really wrong on that front. Science provides knowledge, facts, and understanding of our world and supports logical arguments about what's going on. Religion provides many things (too many to list), but a belief in a higher being does not make you a bad person.

But it seems like both sides don't want to accept that. I know part of it is the science tries to be disconnected from faith and that's too clinical for some people. Others see religious folks as all zealots. Its like when you work somewhere: who do you remember? The guy who was nice and just did everything or the asshole who ruined your day? Everyone remembers the asshole.

Now, everyone should follow what you want, but our leaders need to rise above all this and neither side is. Both are heavily influenced by money, both sides are so doggedly dogmatic they won't listen to the other side, and the system is being maneuvered into such a way that benefits them over the people.

But at the end of the day, I feel like the real issues here are being glossed over because of emotional kneejerk reactions.For instance, violence involving weapons. Gun control is controversial and yet it seems to be a kneejerk. I want improved background checks to make sure someone with violent tendencies towards other human beings can't get a gun. And yet, I get told that I want to "take away [their] guns." I don't want to take away someone's constitutional right, and most gun owners are fully capable of that responsibility. What I want, is for an extra level of safeguards to defend us from those who are not capable of it. And the reason I say that is we have more regulations on trying to make sure a new driver is a safe driver than a gun owner is safe gun owner. If a vehicle that's lethal in the wrong hands is regulated more than an actual object designed as a lethal weapon shows a misplaced priority imo.

And that's just the surface level stuff. There's also this whole mentality about "Make America Great Again" which ties into this wierd nostalgia about the 50s, which was only so great because most the world was recovering from WWII and we were the only 1st World Nation at full capacity. Its easy to be great when everyone else is in rubble.

As far as Trump goes: he's not capable of doing this job. His appointees have their own agendas that are frankly step backwards. DeVos' voucher plan basically means that public schools are going to receive far inferior funding at a time when the US is falling in education. His VP wants to take gay people like myself and have them undergo sexual reformation therapy, something that's both unethical and immoral. And Trump himself? He's spending most of his weekends playing golf down south, on our dime, and foreign leaders are being encourage to stay at his properties. Sounds to me like he's only interested in helping himself. And his comments on nuclear weapons scares the crap out of me. I do not want us going into a nuclear war.

Believe me, I really really wish he was proving me wrong, but he's not. I want to see more conversation on both sides of the aisle, I want every citizen to feel safe from outside threats and from internal ones. But neither side is. United we've stood, but now we're divided and we are falling and no one cares, really. Everyone thinks they're right.

Sensei616

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ RandomUserPerson

That is because there is no more objective fact anymore in our society. The biggest example being global warming. Everyone on the left treats it as established fact whereas most on the right disagree with the premise of global warming. And that's because we have these things called 'think-tanks' and 'research centers' that are paid do science and give us useful information and statistics. These research centers may or may not exhibit bias but one thing is for certain; once they have been labelled a 'right-wing' or 'liberal' institution they are quickly dismissed as not being legitimate by the other side.

The left and the right can't have a logical discussion because they are using a 'different dictionary' with which to make their arguments. So rather than discussing what you know, its all about disproving and debunking someones source instead of entertaining the arguement itself.

Risu

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Maybe I'm being to naiive and optimistic, but I think we're just getting to the good part. We have better technology than we've ever had, fewer & fewer wars for conquest are being fought, and society is right on the cusp of truly flourishing. It's simply a matter of the greedy, selfish bastards at the very top who have long-since lost their compassion and have evolved into demons.

And I'm not saying "can't we all just get along ?!?!?", but I do think morale has alot to do with it. That, and, generally speaking; people need to get over themselves. I know I can't convince others, (and probaly shouldn't,) but I can atleast try to inspire. Same goes for everyone else. (=

Lars

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Risu

You hit the nail on the head.

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I could reference a speech done by Michael Moore of all people, at the end of October. They felt ignored, or even vilified, in the case of coal miners.

I've noticed the trend for decades, where one side skirts the law, and the other side does not, so the one side skirts it further and further, until the other side says, hey, enough of this, and skirts it themselves, only to be called on it by the one side.

Witness the 2000 election, where Democrats decided to call for recounts in counties they had won by large margins, supposedly because of a confusion on the ballot--that their party approved, btw--as if looking at hanging and dimpled chads would reveal what the voter was REALLY thinking. How they changed the law in Massachusetts when Romney was Governor to prevent him from naming a replacement senator, only to change it back when there was a Democrat in power. How they managed to replace Torricelli with Lautenberg in New Jersey when it was clear that Torricelli was going to lose, but the deadline for candidacy was already passed. Guarantee you New Jersey would not have been so forgiving if a Republican faced that problem.

But the biggest sign of the insanity of the left was their call for everyone to unite and accept the results of the election...before the election, when they believed their own skewed polls and thought Hillary would win in a landslide...only to riot, scream, throw temper tantrums and become out and out hysterical when Trump won ("Not My President").

Then claim that Republicans and conservatives would have done exactly the same had Hillary won...with absolutely no history of anything like that ever happening.

greenmont

7 years, 9 months ago

link

You must have a short memory. A very large number of people protested Obama's election in 2008 via rather grotesque means (burning/lynching effigies of him, etc) and the exact slogan "Not My President" was thrown around at that time.It was also thrown around for W Bush and Clinton. That's as far back as I can remember.

The major difference is the large-scale protests in response to his election, but those could be seen as in response to specific policies. Policies like the bank bailouts or Iraq war also attracted significant protest.

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

No, I do NOT have a short memory.

Those protest you speak of occured AFTER he had been in office for a while and did things the protesters didn't like, not right after the damn election. And the protests NEVER got violent.

greenmont

7 years, 8 months ago

link

That's not accurate.

On election night in 2008, graffiti was spraypainted at N.C. State saying “Let's shoot that Nigger” and “Hang Obama from a noose.” Students at Baylor University in Waco symbolically hung an effigy from a noose, near a bonfire of stolen Obama yard signs. Three men in Staten Island went out hunting minorities immediately after the results came in, beating one with a pipe and running over another in their car. There were other incidents, these are the ones I recall.

W. Bush's election was also protested loudly and immediately, more over the allegations of election fraud than over anything else.

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 8 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 8 months ago by Owner

Amazing....you are trying to equate the acts of several small groups to THIS:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/us/protests-elections-tr...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-trump-protests-not-le...
http://www.voanews.com/a/more-protests-in-us-cities-ag...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/11/11/a...
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37946231

Also, I mentioned violence, evident in the links above, NOT evident in your references.

And please don't get me started on the 2000 election.

MonsterDong

7 years, 8 months ago

link

then youre delusional

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 8 months ago

link

@ MonsterDong

Well, thank you for illustrating exactly what he's talking about.

No rebuttal, no links to video showing Romney supporters being violent right after the 2012 election, nothing.

Just dismissing me with an ad hominem. Bravo.

MonsterDong

7 years, 8 months ago

link

theres no use debating with a fat lard ass republican furry

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 8 months ago

link

@ MonsterDong

Yet more proof of what he was saying.

Salmy

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Meh, I shouldn't really get into political debates, much less about countries that are not mine, but I see a global trend going on in the world:

Aristotle announced it: corruption of democracy leads to demagogy. Each 1st world country has one nowadays, and in a not little ammount of them, they're getting into power. It began in Greece (the democracy's crib, who would have thought?), then went to Portugal, then it hit the UK and provoked their Brexit, then USA, now it's threatening to extend to France and Germany.

In one countries it's the far right, in others, the far left. No matter where, it's being fighted using the same weapons: more demagogy and the 'what you say is unnaceptable and I'm the only bearer of truth'.

We're all, no matter what our leftitst or rightist tendences are, becoming bigots with the opposite side, and that's the real sad thing, and I think that's what Roarey is actually trying to say here, but I'm not sure anymore.

We've all forgotten that tollerance and education through debate is what will actually make us a better civilization. When people begin to talk about absolutes and thinking that their morals or opinions are definetly better than the rest, we're not becoming better than the ones we attack: we're being worse, and it's what is causing the demagogues to arise and take control of that confusion in our society.

Thing is... this is inevitable. Most people are sheeps without a mind or an opinion of their own. They will just repeat and follow someone else's opinion, that which they think sounds the best. Through the 20th century, after the 2 big wars, politics finally understood that absolutist ideas didn't get anywhere, but moderation and constant, calm debate did, and it brought us wonderful things and prosperity to Japan, USA and Europe. Now, after a century of global peace and good life, people are beginning to worry about stupid things that really shouldn't matter so much, and they're only beginning to do things to annoy the other side, and getting back to their respective far-end of their, until then, more-centrist side.

It's like if we never learned. It's like if wars or poverty (see Venezuela) had to happen for people to finally touch ground again and see what the fuck is really important. It's not a matter of 'letting everybody in' or 'letting nobody in', or 'letting people do whatever they want' or 'not letting people do anything at all'. Virtue is in a good balance.

We gotta fight, as the democrats we are, with our vote, and try to convince people through elections that their option is the right one, and once election is done, admit the defeat sportsmen-like, and work in a constructive way so in next election, ennumerate everything bad the last government did, so people will understand and hopefully that won't happen again. Trying to badmouth every little step these demagogues do will cause the opposite effect, and people will just want to support them even more because they will feel insulted and attacked themselves.

But ah well, as I said, I really shouldn't get into political debates. They make me tired, and sad, and they never lead to anything good amongst friends.

RevampSkunk

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Salmy

Problem is that votes don't truly matter anymore, at least in America. And in other countries, tactics are being used to null or prevent voting being a force. I agree with you here to be honest, and I'm glad that I've been taking a backseat while all this stupidity is rampant in our society

QuestionMark

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ Salmy

I would disagree with that first sentence; global events are linked to each other, pushing and pulling against each other. Trump's success has had some relation to brexit and the coming disintegration of the EU, as well as the migrant crisis in Europe.

As news of one thing reaches across the world, tensions change, people test the wind in anticipation of the coming storm.

Salmy

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ QuestionMark

That was actually my point, that they're kinda related to each other, yup. It's a 1st-world global problem caused by 'too much good life and for too long' where people find new problems to complain about and they've all forgotten about what is really important and ignore and attack what brought us here.

AlexanderPony

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Roarey you are just so fantastic my friend and i agree with all that you said in the pic and in the description you rock!!!!!

MaxDeGroot

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Three things I've become convinced of:

When a politician says, "Let's drop the partisan politics and pass this bill," they have ABSOLUTELY no intention of dropping THEIR partisan politics, they only want the other side to give up.

When a politician says, "Join me in the middle," you can bet your bottom dollar that they are NOWHERE near the middle.

When any partisan says, before an election, "Let's unite behind the winner," they are absolutely convinced that they are going to win.

GrumbyBunny

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I've written and re-written this response 3 times now (god knows why. I guess I just love you, random-internet-guy-whose-art-I-rather-like-but-have-no-other-real-relationship-with. Or maybe I'm just bad at using my time wisely), and I think I've finally boiled the massive wall of text it was down to one main thing I'd like to express:

Forgive me for being blunt (I'm trying to be brief, but the only way I know how to do that is through the medium of slightly offensive snarkery), but saying things like, "X aren't fascists! Y are the REAL fascists!" doesn't exactly scream "well-researched-and-thought-out" opinion. In my experience, it more accurately screams, "I've been getting my information almost exclusively from side X for quite a while now." Unless you're talking about actual Fascists, of course. Fascists are a bunch of fucking fascists.

starfox64

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Let's have a modest proposal, let's kill babies. Or we can talk this out like civil adults instead of fighting on the playground with sticks.

starfox64

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ starfox64

Plus the shit that's been coming out, I mean they are accusing pewdiepie of racism and being a nazi for making a joke on YouTube heros, and then the writers get a shitlist of shit thrown in there faces when a banner of a very hard right site gets there faces plastered on the website https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q6-KXBijWQ

hdmi

7 years, 9 months ago

link

never thought i'd see a political shitshow on a furry porn site lmao

Icestorm

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ hdmi

hahaha this is the best show fucking ever hahahahahha

"	HDMIport wrote:
	never thought i'd see a political shitshow on a furry porn site lmao

SilverJackal

7 years, 9 months ago

link

The United States system is an oddball to other countries. In various countries in Europe, a lot of elections for a place in government is much more policy based. however here in the US, we mainly haven't done a policy based election since Jimmy Carter. Thats when they stopped doing one on one debates with only the canidates and speaker and switched to large crowds and media circus. Also since the 1950s, there has been a push from the christian population, and the concept of the Left was made to discribed those that didn't have views of opinions that to against those of the conservative mindset. Heck sexual education hasn't updated much since the 60s in the US because its believed by conservatives that better education on sex will lead to depravity. unlike other places in the world, we are progressing at a much slower pace. and with Trump as president, its an example on how we sometimes backpedal.

AmIReallyHere

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I guess I'll add my two cents to this discussion.

A a member of the, ahem 'Babyfur' community, I can tell you from experience the problem isn't that the Opposition is too left or too right, the problem is the excessive radicalization of the left (And to a much lesser extent, the right.), but as me and those like me have coined the term 'AuthLeft' which is, simply put, that there ideals while are Left winged, they are also very Authoritarian, everyone's throwing the word Fachist around and to some extent that is true, but I think a more Apt term is Marxist, as Fachist principles are Radically Right, and what's the opposite side of the spectrum? Yup, both Authoritarians, One wants Supremacy at the detriment of the individual, the other wants Equality at the detriment of the individual.

Example; https://www.politicalcompass.org/yourpoliticalcompass?e... This is a Political Compasses, and the Spectrum Isn't just Left or Right, it's that these individuals could be any level of Left or Right leaning, doesn't matter, the problem is, is that they are Authoritarians, I don't like talking about politics nowadays, so many people have just shoot up north that Antarctica now has a permanent population, It makes voicing your opinions scary, genuine so. I have had backhanded backroom stories flung about to such an extent that I am have individuals distant themselves from me because I, to quote; "Make them look bad."

Having discussions with my friend about this is very frustrating, gotten to such a point where they out themselves as thee worst form of person, Conceited to such a point you cant even talk to them because any statement you make is seen, before it's made, as some primitive, inferior ideal, it's VERY insufferable, they think themselves as Superior paragons of righteousness, and us as uneducated plebeians.

TL;DR They are everything they hate.

Zonntag

7 years, 9 months ago

link

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage."

Attributed to several authors, a good discussion appears here: http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

QuestionMark

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Thank you for posting this.

Not only is it heartening to see, but people's reactions to it are both valuable and hilarious.
It's lovely how this election has revealed where people stand, and how far their human decency goes.

Remember, information is treasure ;3.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

@ QuestionMark

So far I'm really happy with the response. A big part of me was expecting nobody to give a shit and just ignore me completely, haha. But yeah, it's generally been great.

greenmont

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Still depressed by this attitude among intelligent folks. Can't argue that there exist "SJWs" that simply insult people, sometimes disingenuously, sometimes for social capital. But it's not name-calling to point out patterns of behavior. Trump (along with a good portion of his base) certainly has behaved in racist and sexist ways, so it's alarming that so many think that "name calling" is a more dire issue than the basic discriminatory policies he's backing, let alone the proto-fascist ones. But the "name-calling" is never taken as an opportunity to reflect (understandably so) and instead is equated with character assassination and childish antagonism, so that's how it's replied to. Of course.

What's more depressing is that, because of this, when it comes up and I disagree on a public forum, I'm more likely to get people trying to "trigger" me with shitty memes and provoke me into using bad words (thus somehow discrediting my entire argument) than I am anyone willing to engage in the slightest. I don't see in these responses a desire to "reach across the aisle" and "come together" but a desire to declare open season on people with a certain political belief, because they feel that's what's been done to them. It's ironic because Haidt said that culture/virtue of "victimhood" was the exclusive purview of the left but we see it here in spades... forget actual policy, what's ACTUALLY evil is that mean people online keep calling me a "bigot" so we must subdue them by any means.

All this does is perpetuate that cycle. Is anyone going to reflect on themselves and their behavior? No. They're going to congratulate you for pissing off and mocking the right targets, who they insist are scum and deserve it. Sound familiar?

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Edited 7 years, 9 months ago by Owner

I've spent the past few months watching countless examples of the destructive sjw behaviour I'm referring to. It exists for anyone who cares to look for it.

Like this! https://youtu.be/-1P_1mLlJik

greenmont

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I know it exists, we've been over that... but finding a crowd of fools who agree with an argument doesn't do anything to validate or invalidate the argument, and doesn't justify responding in kind, even when it's illegitimate. Trump's policies as proposed ARE in a great many cases racist or sexist. If it's juvenile name-calling to criticize that (and so he's justified and VIRTUOUS for responding by being a playground bully) then I don't understand how anyone is ever SUPPOSED to criticize that.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Thing is, argument is great and I've seen arguments against trumps policies being racist as well as those that are for it and both make great points. There are those on both sides tho who are so virulently loud and obnoxious they shut down discussions. That's the behaviour I'm objecting to. Instead of an argument you brand someone a bigot or whatever label and then repeat until you get the target to shut up. That is disgusting. The discussion begins with outrage, not an argument but with "god you're terrible".

greenmont

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Shouting at someone that they're a bigot (or a "reverse racist") and storming off certainly accomplishes nothing.

It's also pointless to have an argument with someone who despite having never met you, fundamentally has no trust in you as a person. When the argument starts with that sentiment, what is there to do? And that's how so much of this starts, with a blanket assertion that anyone in some "tribe" is just a hateful, malevolent liar who wants nothing more than to see your "tribe" suffering... and that therefore you should judge everything you do by how much it will make them suffer and be cheered for doing so? It's just fucking endless.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Haha exactly, agreed with you completely there XP.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

Oh and I do want to say, just so its clear, that I like you very much and don't think you're a shitty person XP.

greenmont

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I dunno, tl;dr
It might be "character assassination" to randomly claim someone is a racist/sexist/bigot
it's not simply "character assassination" when you can show clear evidence of discrimination, as is possible with Trump
where we end up is, it becomes impossible to criticize bigotry at all, because bigots (Richard Spencer, Charles Murray, David Duke) can hide behind the same shield, unless they literally brand "I hate blacks" on their foreheads.

RoareyRaccoon

7 years, 9 months ago

link

I'm not denying the existence of bigotry, I'm saying its too liberally used as a label for some people and not used at all for others. Like racism against whites is almost universally supported without challenge.

greenmont

7 years, 9 months ago

link