Chaos Future 50 : Corrupted by vavacung < Submission | Inkbunny, the Furry Art Community

NeksusCat

8 years ago

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Well, it's turning out that LAJ is a bit smarter than she appeared before, but still has much to learn.
Yet she asks pretty valuable questions.
I'm intrigued. Continue. :3c

Vadelent

8 years ago

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Edited 8 years ago by Owner

And you will try to "purify" a nice, sentient, corrupted creature that doesn't wish to be uncorrupted? One that has had hundreds of oppprotunities to kill you by now and has only fled or subdued you up to this point? Talk about lawful/stupid... or is it actually good/stupid?

NeksusCat

8 years ago

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@ Vadelent

What do we know, maybe she has a secret-secret plan to kill everyone?
So secret, she doesn't know it herself yet!

TheDeinonychus

8 years ago

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@ Vadelent

Lawful Stupid. It's like the kind of paladin who would destroy raised skeletons just because they are undead, even though they were raised by a wizard to protect a village from bandits. The details don't matter, just their own personal views of what is right and wrong.

Stupid Good would be a character who's nice and kind to everyone, regardless of the person's past actions. A lot of characters from the show have Stupid Good moments, especially Fluttershy and Pinkie.

sharpfang

8 years ago

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@ TheDeinonychus

Pinkie is this to such a degree, I really suspect she's Chaotic Evil Smart. Cause as much havoc and damage as possible without ever getting seriously blamed.

vampireruler

8 years ago

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@ sharpfang

I'm thinking more chaotic neutral, Discord is more chaotic evil because they never actually hurt anypony so their not completely evil.

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ TheDeinonychus

The DM in me must object to this.... A paladin SHOULD destroy undead just because they are undead. The act of creating them is in and of itself evil in most every case. The only wizards that raise the dead are necromancers (by definition evil just as paladins are good) and player characters who don't know how to roleplay and think there are no consequences for using the spell on page X. Nearly every time, the ends do NOT justify the means. Raising the dead corpses to protect the town is no more forgivable than the barbarian slaughtering all the attacking elves in the next village over man woman and child to save the town ((Barring your setting being eberon or something :P))

But to be fair, most players also don't stop to think about how utterly bad and horrifying their spells really are. Fireball, for example, if fired into a crowd in your average city would kill every single person within 30 feet, and the smell created from cooking 20 people alive would be enough to knock most wizards on their ass...and then therea that small thing about 'sets any combustible material ablaze'... Yet how many wizards will carelessly srop a fireball on the enemy forces when most buildings have thatch roofs? In general that's morally wrong because you are destroying people's homes and putting people in danger. And thats just fireball. Bread and butter for a wizard. Any spell labeled 'necromancy'? Bad. /inherently/ evil. To the point you have to wonder why some spells are necromancy. Clone, for example. Supposedly it creates a body that sits in a jar waiting for you to use it.... So why is it necromancy? Well there has to be a reason otherwise it'd just be conjuration. So, presume you really have created a clone... And it like most beings already has a soul which you wrench out in the prowess of making the body. Congrats you now have yourself one magically sustained vegitable, at the cost of one human/elf/whatever life.

(Sorry, I enjoy DND and pathfinder too much xP. ... And the stigma against paladins annoys me. People always complain about paladins being lawful stupid but never look at it from the paladin's point of view.... Which would go to the tune of 'how can the rest of you just WATCH this happen? This is horrifying, disgusting and wrong!'... With a side helping of 'my comrades are all mad...'

TheDeinonychus

8 years ago

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@ DaftVenture

See, I can tell what your issue is in this case. It sounds like when you run games, you follow the 'default' morality of everything being black and white. Evil is obviously evil, and good is obviously good. It's the most simplistic way to lay out morality for players, and avoids the players not understanding why something is bad, by just stating it for them. Unfortunately this means that things are labeled definitively with no room for context.

However, trying to run a game where the morality is more shades of grey, you'll have to throw out a lot of things being definitively good or definitively evil. Even the source book 'The Book of Vile Darkness', a book you'd think would contain nothing but pure evil, breaks up spells from the necromantic school into different degrees of evil. Raising undead was considered, according to the BoVD, a minor evil at best. Spells that damaged or enslaved souls were considered far worse.

You should also look into something from 2nd edition for an example of 'not quite evil necromancy'. Priests of Jergal were necromantic priests, who often raised undead. However, these priests were not viewed as 'evil necromancers' terrorizing the country side. Most often the undead they raised were condemned criminals sentenced to hard labor after execution for their crimes, and would be put to work for whatever city they were executed by.

A lot of people have problems with paladin characters because most people don't play them with any nuance to them. Letter of the law rather than spirit of the law. Most people think the way to play a good paladin is to declare all the enemies evil. The last paladin I played was more concerned with doing good deeds rather than smiting everything he thought was evil. Most people forget the whole 'humility' virtue when they roll a paladin.

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ TheDeinonychus

The thing is that the opposite is also true, that players have absolutely NO concept of lawful. Half the people who get mad about the paladin following the law comes from the fact they don't follow it at all, despite their not-obligated lawful good fighter being lawful good on paper. In general a paladin that follows the letter of the law is closest to their intended function. Paladins have a strict set of rules. They are the swords of a deity. Exemplars of the laws(which is the same as saying the beliefs) they uphold. In a word, they are zealots. Zealots don't bend the rules, they break friends who do.

Don't get me wrong, I agree some players take it too far, or focus too heavily on a singular aspect of the paladin description, but what I'm saying is that for a paladin, they CANT follow the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. The 'law' is their religious beliefs, and the spirit is the letter is the spirit. Hell, usually they arnt even written, so it literally is what you see is what you get. Necromancy is evil? Well, there's no grey there. Paladin is against. Necromancy is only a little evil? Its still evil, there is no such thing as 'a little against', paladin is against. And because paladins are the swordarm of the holy laws they follow, that pretty much ends with smiting. XP though there are more reasonable alternatives, such as taking them in to be judged.... By their holy order... Because the law broken is theirs, not some king's. In a way that makes paladins a far more flavorful entity, because they are some rogue power really messing things up for the king, who may or may not be a decent guy, baring the fact his laws are at odds with an order of knights weilsing the power of a god....

Unfortunately a lot of this is campaign specific though. It really depends how the world itself works. Eberon is all shades of grey, faerun is pretty straight forward, homemade unique settings are whatever the DM says they are. Hard to really debate about the morality of fictional archetypes when it carries from game to game, no? :P

TheDeinonychus

8 years ago

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@ DaftVenture

Well, I wouldn't say that Forgotten Reals is always straight forward. It's, by it's nature, a bit of a mix. Looks pretty simple on the surface, but gets a lot murkier the more you look into it.

And unfortunately, a lot of players (and DMs for the matter) don't look much deeper than the surface. Most players don't really consider what their character's alignment means beyond the most simplistic versions, and that does go both ways. People who do (when allowed) play evil characters think they all have to be either maniacal overlords or murderous psychopaths. But there can be a lot more nuance to an evil character than that. The same holds true for a good or lawful character.

But since not many players bother to add nuance to their characters, combined with the fact that by the rules a paladin always has to be lawful good, you get a lot of shit paladin characters in most games. And that's why a lot of people don't like them, and came up with the whole 'Lawful Stupid' trope. It's not the class in particular most dislike, it's how it's played.

Like I said before, there's many ways to play a paladin (or any lawful good character). I already gave a humble paladin as an example. But what if the god a paladin follows isn't lawful or good? What if the god is neutral? Should he enforce the law, or would that not truly be in line with the tenants of his faith?

Or for that matter, what if his god is chaotic good? Would enforcing the letter of the law over good deeds be in violation of his faith?

True, with some gods you can 'get away' with playing a paladin with a perpetual quarterstaff up his arse. But it's not the only way to play a paladin.

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ TheDeinonychus

Well, not that I think it should be that way but.... I'm pretty sure a paladin CANT follow a chaotic good deity xP. The rules on paladins make them pretty much exactly what everyone complains about about them. Your example of the humble paladin is a good one, they don't all have to be on a smite-evil crusade. But even the humble paladin's duty is to destroy evil.

evoyager

8 years ago

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@ DaftVenture

And now you have me wondering about dark Paladin. Sort of like Steel BrightBlade from dragons of Summer Flame.

DragonPen

8 years ago

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idiot girl..what you see isnt corruption but just a different form of magic compared to the elements of harmony. What would she do if she came accross Discord?

KatoriaTheRed

8 years ago

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Rarities next comment could be on the lines of. "If you purify me, you WILL kill me. Then YOU will have a bar over YOUR head for murder." :P

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ KatoriaTheRed

Technically speaking she never said it shows her every bad guy. She just said that everyone who has a bar has corruption. So she could be a serial killer and have no bar. :P. (Also from a legal standpoint she wasn't trying to kill her, so its manslaughter, not murder :P)

KatoriaTheRed

8 years ago

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@ DaftVenture

Welll..Mareslaughter. :P But still, those words might cause her to think a bit about the possibilities THAT might envoke. :P

lurkingeek

8 years ago

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@ DaftVenture

Frankly, I'd say it's troublesome enough that Applejunior's Corruption Testing Technique(R) involves actively clocking beings with her Smitey Stick. Howzabout some kinda passive sensor that *doesn't* require you to initiate aggressively & profile anything that strikes you as spooky? 'Specially since Squiggletail's apparently the first *sapient entity* with dark mojo that Handsyjack's ever run across. It's like having the Orkin guy suddenly decide he's a cop, and leaning on ~game mechanics~ to excuse her just seems like horseshit rules-lawyering.

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ lurkingeek

Well in her defence its not like we've seen her go around bopping random strangers. That may be how it works but we've not seen her attack people unprovoked. Just mistakenly provoked

lurkingeek

8 years ago

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@ DaftVenture

'Provocation' would sorta imply questionable *action*, as opposed to mere *appearance*, in one's presence. And sure, all she's picked fights with up to this point were rampaging DAHK MAGICK-infected beasties not much gnarlier than your average Everfree resident, which hardly qualifies anyone to surreptitiously play inquisitor on a *sapient* being. That pre-emptive paranoia seen in prior pages is how 'guardians' become something to guard *against*.

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ lurkingeek

Perhaps but you where saying its bad that their testing technique requires smiting. This is true but we've not actually seen them use it that way. Or rather, just because it seems it should work that way doesn't mean she actually goes around clocking random people to see if the monsterbar shows up. For instance the only reason that she saw rarity's was an accident when her sword was tossed from her hands. She didn't spy rarity, say 'that made looks suspicious' and go thwap her on the head because of profiling.

lurkingeek

8 years ago

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@ DaftVenture

Still, that 'what if they're schemin' liars what lie & scheme?' theory...when every magick-warped critter prior acts like a mutagenic case of rabies...seems like far too much of an overzealous stretch-especially when said first-ever sapient case gets chased all over hell's half-acre before even attempting self-defense. Pre-emptive 'justice' is no such thing.

Snowfirechakat

8 years ago

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awesome page oh and little animal next too the big monster is super cute

Weasselk

8 years ago

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She is a simple minded kid, lol. Her poor brain will have so much information to process in a future.

ElfenSciuridae

8 years ago

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She is not going to make it in life thinking like that. Everyone needs their share of evil because without they would not be able to fight back in defense if not fight at all, and make other decisions that would require a stern and stiff decision. Being totally good makes one a wishy washy wimp which everyone will step on and get their way with. Having evil within one to counter that creates a balance within that individual.

Welcome to the Human Equation.

Malen69

8 years ago

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@ ElfenSciuridae

Exactly. There is the potential for good and evil in everyone. Take discord for example; he was pretty much the definition of evil till fluttershy brought the good out in him.

ElfenSciuridae

8 years ago

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@ Malen69

There is never a "LIKE" Button to press when I need one.

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ ElfenSciuridae

Tell that to a paladin. They make their living killing things.

Or in IRL terms, fighting back doesn't require evil. That's just silly. Being good doesn't mean being nice.

ElfenSciuridae

8 years ago

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Edited 8 years ago by Owner

@ DaftVenture

Actually it does. Because being good means that you are not go out and deliberately hurt others even if they had hurt you. Being good means taking the most non-violent approach to dealing with others when they are about to go violent on you. This is because you have a high value for the life of others even if they have no value for you.

Putting a Whoop-Ass on somebody means that you have to lower the value of somebody's life to the point where you do not care about them and decided that they have to be taught a lesson or eliminated. The Buddhist Monks know this - they have the power to destroy a life but would prefer not too unless they are put into a corner where they have to decide whether it is their own lives vs. the lives of those who seek them harm. And in that decision they have to reach in deep where the dark side resides for will be breaking so many enlightened laws about preserving life will be broken. It is this self defense that they developed Kung Fu for that reason.

In going out and hunting those to eliminate does not make one good. Paladins are not good by the definition stated above because they go out ans seek to destroy those who are will to destroy others. They are good in the eyes of others in preserving their lives and their laws, but they are not as for the actions they take is a hostile and violent against others who do not agree to their ideals. Preserving good does not make you good. Being a police officer, does not make one good. It just says that one is willing to put their lives on the live for others for the preservation of society, but in that preservation they will have to capture and arrests others and along that line even possibly kill somebody. It is a disgusting job but somebody has to do it.

May the god(s) understand this and forgive us all.

DaftVenture

8 years ago

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@ ElfenSciuridae

No it doesn't.... Being good does not mean you have to hold everyone of equal value, nor that you have to value everyone. Because quite frankly people arnt equal, and skum is skum. If some lowlife is endangering my life, or worse the lives of my friends and family, they have devalued their own life. They will be dealt with, and it can only be described as Good. There is no wrong in self defence. Its why kung fu hurts. There are plenty of martial arts that don't. Redirection is a thing.

From a similar bent, this means that those who actively seek to remove people who cause pain and suffering and other evils are doing the right thing, and therefore by definition good.

Malen69

8 years ago

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Edited 8 years ago by Owner

Im calling it now. In the next page we are going to see AJ with a harmony bar above her head. "so what now? Are you going to purify me as well?"

Blazinroc88

8 years ago

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@ Malen69

That's honestly what I'm hoping for! Put LAJ in her place and make your infallible point in one fell swoop.

NilesPrower

8 years ago

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There's more than just corruption. To tell good and bad ones apart, you supposed to utilise all of the Elements and not leave judgement on only one person. What a dumb kid. If it was so straightforward, there would be just 1 Element rather than 6.

ElfenSciuridae

8 years ago

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@ NilesPrower

There is never a "LIKE" button around when I need to press it!

evoyager

8 years ago

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good questions bad premise. i wonder if she tried to purify Discord when she first met him on the account that his magic would show up as impure.

vavacung

8 years ago

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@ evoyager

But he isn't corrupted by dark magic...And Discord seem not die or his power was take away after got blast by Element Of Harmony for 3 times at all...

evoyager

8 years ago

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@ vavacung

Discord was sealed away in stone two of the times that we saw the elements used against him. Once again the Two Sisters Celestia and Luna. Once again Twilight and her friends. His magic seems to be chaos and disharmony actual opposite to The Elements of Harmony that are used by the main six. If that we've only seen Discord powerless two times once when Tirek absorb his magic and again when he was in the vicinity of Chrysalis is throne. It's entirely possible that the elements while effective against him simply can't purify whatever Discord is they can only lock I'm up for a little bit like when Celestia first use them against Luna.

vavacung

8 years ago

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@ evoyager

And Luna was sealed, not being kill as well. Even dark magic within her not been removed that time.

evoyager

8 years ago

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@ vavacung

humm very true Luna was sealed and not purified when celesta used the elements. it wasn't until twilight and her team used them that Luna was purified. yet their effort to stop Discord resulted in Sealing and not purification. my guess was that discord could not be purified by the elements because he is somehow connected to them like the light and darkside of the force.

FoxyLove

8 years ago

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But apparently she never got much of a close in history lessons of friends amd family. Otherwise she would understand that not all darkness is inherently evil.

DevilishGenesis

8 years ago

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If that same corruption is the only thing keeping a good pony alive, AJ, then purifying is no different than killing the same long you're trying to save. And if they don't want to be purified, then it goes from rescuing somepony from darkness, to trying to murder them. Darkness is not always evil, and light is not always good. If you attack Rarity again, you'll only prove my point, and start yourself down a dark path, by willfully committing the ultimate act of evil; murdering an innocent in the name of helping them.

MrFox2020

8 years ago

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Light is not inherently good and darkness is not inherently evil, it's how they are used that determines what they are.

shadowfox79

8 years ago

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I think that LAJ is the one who is becoming a bit corrupted because of her too rigid "work ethics" where she can only think in absolutes and i'm suspecting that shes going the same way of luna when her frustrations caused her to go nightmare moon..
Its called the "Guardians of Harmony" kiddo not the
We shall Purge All Evil from this Land by the order of the Sun God.
"Assault Marines of Harmony"
use this boar mantra ..Breath, Observe , Analyze , Respond

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