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Istaran

Redscale's Adventure: more or less mass combat?

Hi guys, I'd like to solicit your opinions.

In essence, I think that Redscale's Adventure needs more or less Mass Combat.

Options:
Option 0) Remove mass combat entirely. Focus instead on things like the new ability of pawns to contribute hits in single combat, etc. I am going to do those things anyways, of course. This frees me completely from dealing with the bugs that have long resided in the mass combat code, the need to animate any new content that I create where necessary, etc.

Option 1) Replace mass combat. I have considered the possibility of doing something more like some of the Pokemon games, i.e. 2 vs 2, or some similar limited scale combat. In this case terrain and positioning elements would be removed. The targeting interaction rules would be retained or updated, i.e. if you take a targeted action, opponents other than the ones you targeted can get a free hit, and the initiative order can allow enemies to preempt and cancel your move.

Option 2) Double down on mass combat. Fix the bugs as best I can. Add new content that is either mass-combat only or shines in mass combat (AOE, ranged attacks, etc.). New tile sets, map generators, etc. Feature mass combat in some of the quest lines to come. Basically, try to make it a major part of the game.


Mass combat was definitely an interesting experiment, and I'm glad I tried it, but I know it isn't the best executed. It's also one of the hardest things for me to develop and debug. It demands that I put more time/effort into it if it's going to remain a part of the game.

So, which option(s) do you support? And why, if you can put it in words? I won't start on any of these options this month, so you have March to voice your opinion. This isn't a democracy, I won't go strictly based on number of votes, but this is your chance to influence my decision.
Viewed: 308 times
Added: 8 years, 5 months ago
 
tarrenvale651
8 years, 5 months ago
Mass combat is pretty cool, but I find myself just reloading my save whenever the quarry ambush shows up. The path finding for that particular encounter is unfortunately pretty poor at the moment.
LordSolus
8 years, 5 months ago
This is actually a difficult question because I enjoy the mass combat, especially since I haven't seen it implemented into any other decent text games out there, but I feel like it might happen too frequently, but I feel that for combat in general since 9/10 on exploring results in a fight that's usually over in two moves or less, resulting in a lot of pawns that I have to drop off individually at bases far too often because otherwise I have to walk around with 200 kobolds or lycans or felines, which is nice for pride's sake, but kinda changes the feel of the game from how it is in the beginning to more like an idle clicker and management game. The nice thing about the mass combat though, is that it has use for raids and invasions that just wouldn't be the same if it was mostly text.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
If it were easy, I would have just decided without seeking input. On that note, thanks for your input.

Also, would you recommend making it harder to recruit enemies, so that the number of pawns grows less rapidly?
LordSolus
8 years, 5 months ago
Well, I would say it depends on the enemy. For the kobolds, it makes sense to get a lot of them since they can be assigned to any task day or night, but with the lycans, it should run the risk that they resist you so much that it breaks their minds completely and turns them into either a living fuckdoll, or into your next meal. But let's say you already have one other lycan in your party, then it could make it 1% easier to make them join you so it becomes a manageable attempt with greater chances if you choose to have more of that type travelling with you. With the felines, it should run the risk of just not being able to wrestle their minds since they're so finicky and hyper. I haven't run into the other enemy types as of yet, especially since some have special conditions if I recall correctly. As for more important characters, that really just is a combination of their species type and their personalities and your interactions with them. Let's say you were to defeat Prince Azure and wanted to recruit him. As a proud and noble prince bluescale, he'll most likely refuse every time unless you convince him with the right kind of persuasion that it'd be more beneficial to him if he joins you like Glitterscale did, than to resist and be turned into a weak pawn to your will or just outright killed.
PocketDragon
8 years, 5 months ago
I actually really enjoyed the mass bits, even if rarely used. It does make your game stand out.
Ok your game does stand out without it, but when I first found it I started collecting sorcerers for it.
I'd say the third option. But it really is up to you.
Nyanyan
8 years, 5 months ago
I personally don't enjoy Mass Combat too much, it's not bad, by any means, but I'm not a huge fan. Perhaps, if you did do it better, it might have been more fun, but as it is, I shy away from it when I can. And I can't get past the Old Road's first fight a lot of the time.

If you like it, keep it, but I'm not against removing it completely.

Replacing it would take a lot more effort than just removing it, wouldn't it? If you want to try it as an experiment, I'm for it.

If you haven't guessed from most of my comments, I'm 100% for you doing what you want. I will offer opinions, but never a true vote. Do as you like, I'm good with whatever as of this moment. Though a fix for single combat at the cave base would be nice. I still never get anything but level 2 spiders/rats.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
" Nyanyan wrote:
Replacing it would take a lot more effort than just removing it, wouldn't it? If you want to try it as an experiment, I'm for it.


Yes. Option 0 is the least work of the three, initially just delete/comment out a few lines where mass combats are put into the rotation, and then at my leisure I can strip out the actual code base for it as much as I feel necessary.

Unclear whether option 1 or 2 would ultimately be more work. There's some hard bugs in mass combat today, and adding content for it can be a huge undertaking. But adding a new system means a lot of work including fixing new bugs that come along the way. The strength of option 0 is that it frees me up for more other content/systems.
Murkglow
8 years, 5 months ago
I must say I never found much appear to the Mass Combat system in this game.  So for me it would either be option 0 or 1.  Letting your pawns (and other significant pieces) contribute more directly to combat (rather than just absorbing hits and modifying attacks) would be fun, as would the 2v2 system you mention (especially if you get to choose which of your allies to pair with).  Whichever way you do it I'm sure will be great.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
At the very start I envisioned pawns as solely taking hits. They were to be minor and insignificant as the term describes. Only really differentiated in terms of sex content or such.

Talk about scope creep. :)
Blastburn
8 years, 5 months ago
I would definitely choose option 0, but I'd be fine with option 1. I very much prefer more detailed, smaller scale fighting scenes. The mass combat always felt like a giant barrier to get further into the game. I guess I just never found it fun, and it ended up being mostly tedious work. It almost makes it feel like I'm playing a completely different game at times.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
Thanks for your feedback. It's definitely something that can be a big hassle for me when I'm trying to test or debug something.
bob82
8 years, 5 months ago
I do like the mass combat it adds something new and different to this genre of game but it did tend to get a bit tedious with all of the defense battles. I think something like option 1 would be best with the battle taking place between the lead pawn and lead enemy with all of the other pawns/enemies acting as they do for the redscale. Not sure how easy that would be to implement though.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
" bob82 wrote:
... I think something like option 1 would be best with the battle taking place between the lead pawn and lead enemy with all of the other pawns/enemies acting as they do for the redscale. Not sure how easy that would be to implement though.


That's actually option 0. No matter what, I'll be adding follower/pawn support for other characters in single combat. (Pawn is actually trivial, followers will take some work and possibly a redesign of that aspect.)

Option 1 would be a new combat-mode, with multiple primary combatants on each side. More than one but much less than the current double digits in mass combat.
I am thinking maybe something similar to Final Fantasy X, where you have a small frontline that can be swapped out. I'd have to work out the UI for it (how do you set actions for each party member, select targets, and swap characters if that's allowed). Most of how the combat engine works is already determined from the mass combat work, i.e. what to do when you attack someone who isn't attacking you, how to make Defend/Trap work as intended, etc.
Draggony
8 years, 5 months ago
I don't feel I can weigh in too much on mass combat for the game. Every time I've tried it the game would bug up and I'd have to just reload a save. So I've always just avoided it entirely. Though I think it could be a fun thing but I'm not super excited about it. I'd probably take other features and smexiness over this feature though.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
" Draggony wrote:
...Every time I've tried it the game would bug up and I'd have to just reload a save. So I've always just avoided it entirely. ...

This is a valid reason to weigh in!
I'd rather not devote a ton of time and effort to improving something people won't want anyways.
In any case, thanks for your feedback.
Bmo7000
8 years, 5 months ago
I'm leaning towards 0 at the moment.

I really enjoy mass combat, and the feeling of seeing your huge army actually represented in the field is awesome!  At the moment though, it might be worth taking it out if it means faster content updates.  I really love the idea, but for the moment at least, it might be worth it to drop it.  Maybe move it to a later part of the game when you're raiding towns/cities?
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
It needs to be introduced and replayable enough for a player to know their way around it before the dramatic make or break combat, I would think.
Along the lines of Option 1, I've also been pondering the idea of an army-based combat, where your pawns would be grouped into large units with generic labels like 'infantry', 'archers', etc. and play in an abstract/text fashion more like the 1v1 system (but different). That would suit truly massive encounters better, while their combat stats would largely be abstracted into mass numbers, or at least not so visible. But it'd be much more playable than doing Mass Combat with 100 v 100
shiniperv
8 years, 5 months ago
I dislike the current mass combat enough to vote 1, or 0 is also fine. But as is its a slog that makes me want to not play past a certain point.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
Thanks for the feedback
Uruboros
8 years, 5 months ago
I find that it feels very grindy if done very often. I'd suggest saving it for a few special encounters rather than having it happen often.
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
saving it means new players get thrown into the deep end on those special encounters without the chance to hone their skills first. If I keep it, I need to make it more fun, something to look forward to.
Jayd0g
8 years, 5 months ago
I have to admit the mass combat confuses the hell out of me but it's your game mate and I'm enjoying it so far.
karunama
8 years, 5 months ago
Personally, 0 or 1.  I mentioned this on a diff site, but for me, the entirety of the charm of this game's combat lies in the 'tells' system, wherein you learn gradually what tells each monster has and how to read them.  The current iteration of mass combat loses that in it's entirety and the fun of the combat goes with it.
JohnnyDoughboy
8 years, 5 months ago
Most definitely option 2!
I love TBS top down stuff, and when the first mass combat encounter showed up I was psyched!
I love the mass combat, its a great idea and I think its adds a lot to the game, as well as makes it very unique.
The main complaint seems to be that its too time consuming, but thats what put emphasis on how grand the fight is! You can't properly portray a 20v20 battle with a single leader fighting a single leader and leaving the rest to RNG; so I'm not a fan of option 1.
I seem to be in the minority here, so if mass combat does get removed/reworked I won't be surprised. Its still a great game and its only getting better.
Thanks Istaran <3
Istaran
8 years, 5 months ago
Thanks for the support and making your case.
It's good to hear some people liked it even if I do ultimately remove it.
Diakos
8 years, 5 months ago
Personally I'm for option 1 as mass combat feels a bit like a mess really, but then again I find even the base combat to feel random.
S1erra
8 years, 5 months ago
Mass combat is nice, but only in scripted and rare instances like the first time going onto the roads.
The best thing about your combat system is reading the opponent's tells and countering them, which isn't so present in mass combat. I find myself resorting to attack/overpower spam and throwing spears/bows every time. So when more frequent occurrences of mass combat like the wolves event happen, it just becomes either a run of setting up my pieces then clicking the all attack option repeatedly, or just fleeing because I'd rather not deal with so much individual commands where it's the same thing every time.

So 1 or 2, really. Whatever fits best with what you're planning for the story.
TheBigBrother
8 years, 5 months ago
I think Mass Combat has a few really critical flaws:

When you have a full stack, you have 16 pieces to deal with. 8 of them have the same icon, and there are three other pairs of identical icons. Trying to keep track of which pawn is which (and I mean - which paws is that level 2 nobody and which one is the level 30 champion) becomes almost impossible. When you throw special abilities and a whole other 16 enemies, your eyes just glaze over and you just want to get it over with.

The animation is fast. Really, really fast. And it kind of has to be to be able to play a 16v16 battle in less than an hour. But that just means that when the characters move around, I it's really hard to keep track of the outcomes of each event - one lapse in concentration and you miss half the fight. Then you have to backtrack through the logs and that just slows you down even further.

It doesn't help that it's not easy to remember which character has what orders: "Did I tell that pawn to move there, or there? Is that guy shooting at him? Or charging at her? Is someone about to steamroll that 2hp guy or should I get this guy to smack him?". I think the biggest flaw there is that the UI is almost non-existent, which I get since the window space is so small, but without an UI it's really hard to keep track of what's happening, or about to happen.

Further, without checking logs and comparing with characters, it's really hard to track which enemy has done what last round. You don't know if they can run, or if they can attack or overwhelm or what. You don't get tells and you don't get an indicator to tell you what they've just done in the rhythm. And if there's an imbalance in force, good luck - the smaller team is pretty much boned since you can combo moves to score hits no matter what the other pawn does. It just snowballs from there.

Also: maneuver is so freaking OP it's ridiculous. Moving around the map a few times to build up 300, 500, 800+ maneuver bonus (then trap as they chase you so they walk into it) is totally brutal. You take almost no damage and end up having level 1 pawns ripping level 30 pawns to bits because they get like 283749823460987236478% damage multiplier.

Oh, and don't get me started on why I can't just tell the 200 kobolds following me around the forest like a Soldier Ant colony to pile onto the 18 bandits who think attacking a freaking literal army is a good idea...

Basically, what I'm saying is that option 3 is not really an issue: There are so many balance and UI and control and speed-of-resolution issues that it needs either a complete overhaul (2), or to be tossed in the bin (1).

Personally, I think if you want to keep the top-down view, you might want to take some inspiration from Might and Magic: Let individual troops stack up into "army units" to have their stats multiply by quantity and treat them as individual units. That way, you only ever have a handful of actual units to deal with and give orders to, but still get the firepower of an entire army and avoid the feeling like the hundreds of pawns following you around are going to waste. Having "Battalions" where you can allocate a commander and stick troops under him would give tactical flexibility - You can have a single massive blob that kills anything it touches, or smaller groups that use tactics to pin down enemies and hit them from multiple angles.

Anyway, I'm running out of characters, so that's my 2 cents.
DarkMessiah
8 years, 5 months ago
My opinion: Mass combat as is, while entertaining at times, i usually just auto-move it, because i can't be bothered. IMO, either change it into a simulation auto resolve type thing, or add the option to the current system while fixing the bugs. Since it is already tied into the game via prisons, and some encounters, it'd be hard to completely remove it, hence my suggestion to "nerf " it into a simulation type thing instead, and if people want it to still exist, you can still just add the auto resolve option in after fixing the bugs which would probably make everyone happy.
tankingtoon
8 years, 5 months ago
Option 0.

Remove mass combat or add an auto-resolve. Each fight is a gigantic slog and the most of this game's charm comes from the depth of 1v1 combat. Even a simple 2v2 introduces complexities of each individual combatant  detecting tells separately.  I'd rather you ditch the experiment nad focus on content. You have tons of great mechanics as it stands.
Gaytorlord
8 years, 5 months ago
I would push for option 1

I have both enjoyed mass combat, and hated mass combat (depending on my mood. The best of times its like "Hey, refresh yourself from fuckfesting, with some good wholesale tactics" but then at other times it seems like micro-managing too many elements, and in some instances doing wayyyy worse than you want to be with it. Option 1 seems to be the best of both worlds imo, some form of tactics and group combat, but not the heavy number of pawns and key characters plugging u the screen to get swarmed and destroyed.
Skelatox
8 years, 5 months ago
  Personally, I find mass combat is fun the first few times, but eventually gets more tedious than anything else as you just repeat the same long battles for little reward. This game's charm lies in the detailed one-on-one fights, and advancement of your character. On the other hand, I do like being able to control small numbers of followers to fight. In that vein, I'd personally prefer Option 1, with 2-5 troops in these fights.

  However, given that I can already understand what a massive undertaking that would be, may I suggest an "Option 0.5"? Cut mass combat entirely, for the time being, ala Option 0, and then work on implementing Option 1 slowly, over time. That's my suggestion, anyway.
feelingdifferent
8 years, 5 months ago
Option 0 probably, though Option 1 could work.
As it currently stands I never actually do the fights, I simply tell all my units to attack and speed through it.
The fights are just too long and involve far too many moves for me to actually want to do each step
MajesticImpurities
8 years, 5 months ago
Would it be possible to implement something along with the normal combat system but for some battles (that are flagged as such) it would look like the normal combat with Red and the pawn's and a follower or two that we get to control. Shifting mass battles to like a boss fight with 1-2 supporting followers for each side (enemy could have just normal or higher-leveled versions of normal NPC's).
As I realize that seems hella complex just option 1 is fine :)
toothandclaw
8 years, 5 months ago
I maintain that the mass combat could work if the combat mechanics were streamlined a great deal. As things stand, there are myriad options for each pawn under the player's control, and trying to guess what each enemy unit is going to do, and how to respond to those potentialities, for dozens of rounds at a time, is a headache. But as you resisted the idea of simplifying mass combat in the past, I assume you won't consider it now.

Smaller-scale encounters with the existing rules would be a good alternative, and give you more of a "party RPG" feel. It would also retain the power scale of solo play, without having to worry as much about individual pawns dying on the battlefield.
toothandclaw
8 years, 5 months ago
For option 1, it might be cool to add a feature allowing the player to determine the size of guard/patrol groups. Two guards are easier to overwhelm than three, and less likely to scare off bandits than four; but a greater presence would give the comb more teeth with which to catch more would-be meddlers.

It would also be cool to give a patrol some way of signaling for reinforcements. "Help is coming in four turns; hang in there!"
Hentaichip
8 years, 4 months ago
Dunno if this is still up for review, but I'll chip in my two cents. Option 2 would be a nice pick, if you could scale down the maps - Maybe heavily strengthen the Chess Theme you have for the game and just make it a straight up Chess Board Style Combat, but with abilities that your Pieces have at their disposal. (So for example, a Sorcerer Pawn might have some spells they've learned)

The Mass combat is okay but in it's current form, it's really buggy - And getting out of the Kobold Halls(Mines?) Battle is so tedious, and boring because the map is just wwaayy too big with how many enemies are in play. If not Option 1 wouldn't be too bad, little skirmishes with your Chosen Secondary Hero from your Allies (Like Glitterscale, or something) to use their max potentional would be cool - And the Ability for the Pawns to work as more so true Soldiers, fighting perhaps additional foes while you focus on the enemy group 'Leader' (And if you defeat them, you subsequently break the moral, causing all foes to either flee or submit depending on the race and the level of fear/charisma you show in comparison to their Leader)
MysteryBlob
8 years, 4 months ago
I like the mass combat and hope it will receive some more love.
PeevedPenguin
8 years, 1 month ago
I like the mass combat but my fear is that it trying to develop it and refine it will become an unnecessary drag on the development pipeline of the game and end up consuming most of the project with it's unwieldiness. Even as it currently stands it's a bit awkward to and laggy, both things that do not work in its favour.

They way it's introduced to the player is also a problem; It comes slamming into the player suddenly all at once without any real introduction and puts you into a situation where you go from managing one unit to managing something around 10 units. It's really off putting as a player to suddenly have an increase in overhead like that. If you want to continue with the mass combat, it would really help it on the player side of things if it was introduced more slowly with the battles being smaller scale.

The way the combat itself is conducted is also a problem. Most TBS style games typically have turns happen one at a time rather than all at once. I understand why turns happen all at once for mass combat; it allows mass combat to use the same system of combat as the one-on-one combat, the problem is that this is not good for the player since they now suddenly have to determine all of the moves for all of their units at the same time and have to remember what units have been given what command all while using an admittedly clunky and laggy interface. If instead mass combat was more like what Fire Emblem or Advanced Wars does it would be much easier to manage from a player perspective. Doing this, however, would necessitate the creation of a combat system that is different from the one-on-one combat system since that relies of all the combatants going at the same time in order to see if their chosen action counters the other action. You could just try to shoehorn the one-on-one combat system into the aforementioned model, but I think more benefit can be achieved from simply having a more simplified combat system for the mass combat section. This is important because having mass combat means there is more for the player to manage, and to use the complicated one-on-one system for mass combat means that every unit a player has in a mass combat scenario exponentially increases their overhead.

I suppose given all of that I am in favour of option 2. To that end though, I would not mind giving you some assistance with formulating a new mass combat system if you decide to go down that route.

After all of that is said however, I am totally for the mass combat being in the game. It allows a way for the game to become harder without having to rely on enemies that are simply just more stats so of course they are more difficult. Those kind of enemies end up being essentially grind walls, requiring the player to be have at least a certain level to defeat and requiring little real strategy beyond remembering what their tells are. The mass combat actually allows for the game to become more difficult in a way that requires the player themselves to actually become better at the game rather than just accruing more stats.

Or, or know, it's just a porn game and who need actual good game play in a game that has porn right?
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