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Notes on pedophilia; random thoughts

Notes on pedophilia: an analysis.
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I write this document both to help myself sort out the arguments, and to discuss with
others. It is written with the express knowledge that I have an inbuilt bias towards pedophila
being favorable, while also questioning a deep cultural bias against it (which it holds despite
a lack of regard for other child's rights).


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First, notes in favor of pedophilia.
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While it is true that acts of pedophilia are strongly correlated with abuse, this is often tied up
in other problematic acts that are also abusive (due to the extreme power difference and dependency
of the child), which are further exasterbated by society's failure to treat children as people.
While one may feel defensive about protecting the illusion of a good childhood, even modern parents
range from "messed up people with too many issues to be raising kids" to "an active cancer on humanity
who will create the monsters who will destroy this world." Backwards societies have more of the latter,
but modern societies have slices of all psychoclasses.

A child does in fact have sexuality, but a child's sexuality is different from that of an adult; an
adult's sexuality is goal-oriented (the desire to have sex), while a child's sexuality is exploratory
(seeking to understand the body of oneself and others of your species). This is possibly made necessary
because society tries to make sex such a big damn secret, instead of just being another fact.
Children will naturally try to experiment with thier peers in order to make sense of it all.
(see julia sweeney's "sex ed" monolouge for an interesting insight on this)
This raises a natural complication in a pedophiliac relationship, since the sexual motives are very
different and can be hard to reciprocate.

As mentioned before, any relationship with a child (whether it be as a parent, a friend, a teacher,
or something else) is affected by an immense power difference. Not only are children lacking in almost
every area relative to an adult, but they have an inbuilt desire to please thier guardians as an
evolutionary adaptation to survive to reach adulthood themselves. As of yet, there are likely few people
who have the purity of soul (metaphorically speaking) to not take advantage of this disparity of power in
an abusive manner, but wishful thinking on my part hopes that perhaps pedophilia on its own is not
inherently harmful. It is the difference of rape vs lovemaking, but with a partner with a severe lack of
power and inbuilt motivators to do things they might not genuinely want to do, and so requiring a much
gentler and cautious approach than any adult relationship would (which is not even counting the LEGAL
aspect).
An example of this would be the facts of the types of kids that pedophiles usually go after; these are the
kids that are lonely, isolated, and have nobody to turn to, and upon meeting the pedophile, are overjoyed
to find someone who seems to actually care about them. If the kid believes he needs to "put out" to keep
his newfound friend, then that would be an example of a motivator not based on a genuine desire (and would
be something serious to watch out for if one wanted to take an ethical approach).
(as an personal example, I myself was one of these lonely isolated kids, though I don't recall any instance
of sexual abuse. It may be that the attraction is partly sympathy of knowing what it is like to be alone)

A serious argument I would point out is that despite the serious stance against what society would call
"child abuse", society is nonetheless guilty of blatant double standards on the treatment of children.
As an example, if I were to bend some adult over my knee and spank them (non-consentually), I would be
charged with assault and battery. Do it to "your" child, and it is considered by society to be good
discipline. This also lends itself to society's habit of treating children as property (aka, "don't you
DARE tell me how to raise MY child", as if having a child somehow makes them an expert in raising one,
despite the fact that most people are fucknuts who have no business having children).
The taboo on pedophilia, regardless of whether or not it is really harmful, tends to be more motivated by
unconscious knee-jerk reactions than from an actual analysis of the facts (I do emphisize though, that this
by no means proves or disproves the harmfullness of pedophilia; it only serves to demonstrate that society
is very often wrong about quite a lot of things).

Another note is that in the past, before public schools had kids seggragated into age groups, children
gained knowledge of society and the world by being exposed to people in every stage of life. As an
ancedentel note, I myself as a child by far preferred the company of teachers rather than people my own age,
and that did a considerable amount to influence my intellectual nature, as well as providing
intellegent conversational partners for complex ideas that were beyond by age groups grasp (my exploration
of libertarianism started with a kindly literature teacher who thought I might appreciate what she shared).

On the note of lonelines and isolation, in many ways having an older mentor figure would be of great benefit
to such a child (barring dishonest predatory behavior). This allows the child to gain the wisdom of adults
without being hindered by the hypocrisy of the mentor (there is a good reason why children don't
take thier parent's advice seriously).
I would seriously abjure the idea of an incestious relationship (the parents are the child's primary
caretakers; the power disparity is already too great), but I would suggest the involvement of open-minded
parents in screening the relationshop if some parents weren't already motivated to make sure their kids
get abused (it does happen; sometimes for truly petty convienience that would make you sick to hear).

On another note of loneliness and isolation, society's reactions to pedophilia and pedophiles does not help either.
It is possible that the massive media parade and panic that follows pedophilia can be at least as harmful as the
act itself. On the other side, it is not easy living convinced by society that you are a monster for feelings that
can't be helped; this is actually how catholicism controlled people in the past through the demonization of
natural drives.

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Notes against pedophilia
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Being against pedophilia is a deep seated cultural belief in modern countries, and is considered an absolute
despite it's relatively recent development. Since it is in fact inmeshed with great temptation for corrupt
behavior, any actual experiment would be extremely unethical (not enough data to make a firm enough argument
against the "what if you are wrong?" problem) and would require a pedophile of unrealistically
pure virtue. Perhaps a more ethical source of data would be from the actions of the prepared, "sex is no
big deal" parents who did not assume that the mere act of giving birth would imbue them with the knowledge
needed to raise thier child, but that is irrelevent to this section.

Some information I have collected does seem to suggest that people who have tendencies towards pedophilia
(and zoophilia, for that matter), tend to have crushingly low self esteems, and it has been suggested that
the desire for such a relationship is due to not having the confidence to seek an equal relationship (basically
that the power disparity IS the whole point of pedophilia). This is also interesting because it tends to be
the description of the kinds of kids who are targeted by pedophiles.
Ultimately, this is the fault of the parents, since all people were once children, and children are raised by
parents for the most part. Many parents will deliberately raise thier children to become this lonely and
isolated person to maintain the spirit of the mantra "what happens in the family, stays in the family."
A person who is lonely and isolated from his peers is much less likely to spill the beans to someone.

It has also been noted that children who display overly-precocious sexual knowledge or desires beyond thier
age tend to have been "sexually abused", although given the previous notes, society's definition of "sexual
abuse" can cover a wide range of things, and they could be merely experimenting with knowledge they would
not have gained from thier own age group. Others would say that they are managing what happened to them by
acting it out (which is one way to express that which you have no words to describe), but that is almost
saying the same thing.
My favorate philosopher has also noted "that which you do not get angry about and damn as evil, you will
repeat onto others, because you have not acknowledged it as wrong"
The bias of people who suffer from pedophilia to rationalize and justify thier desires is very strong and I've
noticed has a sublte encroaching nature, and
I take fully into consideration that I am talking out my ass for some desperate way to justify this wishful
thinking. This is also why I had once left InkBunny "for good" out of moral outrage; if pedophilia itself
is wrong in principle, I cannot logically enjoy cub, because I try to keep my principles consistent.

"But ancient societies practiced pedophilia, so it might be okay, right?"
This is something I'd like to debunk right now. While it is true that child abuse occurred much more in the past,
I would disagree that it was in any kind of healthy society. Peoples of the past tended to live in very insane and
rapey societies relative to what modern countries have today. If anything, the prevailance of child rape in primitive
societies and it's correlated decrease in progressively more advanced societies is an argument against pedophilia,
not in favor of it. People in the past were generally NOT more mentally healthy than modern people, and usually much
less so.

So, feel free to discuss, debate and contribute to either side of the issue. I am hoping someone can bring some more
compelling arguments for the "against pedophilia" side; I feel like I cannot effectively make that argument in my
current state of bias.
Jokes and clowning are welcome too, but insincere words of wounding (passive aggression) are not.
Viewed: 59 times
Added: 10 years, 10 months ago
 
BunnyFoxglove
10 years, 10 months ago
The idea that the act of pedophilia could be consensual is laughable at best. A child thinks like a child, and if you put them in that situation it's because you wanted it, not them.

The concept of curiosity and exploration is far different than someone with carnal motives taking advantage of someone with a young mind. It's not too hard to persuade a kid into doing something, especially if you're in a position of power over them. Kids don't know what they're getting into, nor the real consequences it could have in the future.

Kids do not have the capacity to understand things the way an adult does. While kids can be smart, and even mature for their age, they're still kids. Their bodies and minds are not fully developed yet. It's the same reason kids aren't allowed to vote or gamble.

For example, go ask a kid how much he thinks a car is worth... I bet they doesn't even come close. Kids don't have a grasp on these concepts. Much the same as it is for things of a sexual nature. Until they're more mature (say teens or so), it's far too early for anything to be consensual.

As for the actual act of pedophilia, lets not forget the physical damage you could cause. It's just an all-around no. Pedophilia is wrong, and should never be taken anywhere outside of fantasy.
QuestionMark
10 years, 10 months ago
Yes, all noted in the journal, I believe. H0nk.
I'm sure I've also noted that such a theoretical action, to be anywhere near ethical, would require caution and consideration towards just such deficiencies.
When you think about it, an ethical approach to attempting this would require a hell of a lot of work, as one would have to fill the role of several people (partner, guardian, role model, friend, teacher, etc) and try to balance all of these. For example, one would need to respect the kids volition, but would also need to find a way to persuade him to follow his best interests (no, this has nothing to do with the actual pedophilia part, but a "responsible" relationship with an unequal partner, I would think would call for this kind of thing). Not to EVEN MENTION needing to be aware of one's own personal bias and avoiding projection and manipulation, and being ready to accept that it might never be a sexual thing (because as we both pointed out, the two peoples motivations are quite different from each other).

Buuuut...at the same time, I do believe that despite being newer to the world and having more they have to learn (that adults take for granted), children are (or could be) much more intelligent than society gives them credit for. It is horrible that even in our modern age, child raising practices still produce people who's minds are split against itself; it is inefficient overhead to cope with psychological burdens.
Also something I'm sure of is that...well, children have not yet had time to have had their souls (metaphorically speaking) broken down and destroyed (I'm quite sure, that most adults are in fact broken children). After adulthood, the brain more or less is locked in it's mode of thinking, and it is not easy to think as flexibly anymore (perhaps one of the major ways children are smarter than adults).

"It's the same reason kids aren't allowed to vote or gamble."
While irrelevant, I'd like to note that voting is a sham anyway. Not much more than a beg for your political masters to not harm your interests further, and it amounts to nothing in the end. A great many revolving door tyrannies continue on the belief of revolutionaries that "this time, this guy will be different than all those other leaders!"

I would concede that age does matter; due to their newness to the world and their exponential brain growth over time, the younger they are, the harder it would be to act on it ethically. Too young, and they still need to figure themselves out before they do anything else.

"The idea that the act of pedophilia could be consensual is laughable at best."
He he?

"Pedophilia is wrong, and should never be taken anywhere outside of fantasy."
For someone who cares what the truth is, an acceptable break from reality is harder to pull off.
But as noted, there is not enough to suggest this theory is likely enough to risk testing it. It would not be right, you see.

But you can see the dilemma, no? And why the topic would be up for discussion. Tis not easy to deal with being naturally driven to become a monster. I have tried more than once to quit, but I have never felt quite so alive as when I finally just accepted that this is what I am.
BunnyFoxglove
10 years, 10 months ago
" But you can see the dilemma, no? And why the topic would be up for discussion. Tis not easy to deal with being naturally driven to become a monster. I have tried more than once to quit, but I have never felt quite so alive as when I finally just accepted that this is what I am.

No, I cannot see the dilemma. There are age limits set for a reason, and I do not feel those reasons are wrong. All I see here is someone talking as if they have real problems, and if you're being serious, you should probably seek professional help.

When you talk about an "ethical approach" that makes me worry about you. It sounds like you're trying to find ways to justify carrying out the act so you can commit such a crime and defend yourself later in court. There is NOTHING ethical about taking advantage of under-developed or under-matured person. Kids can be smart, and mature, but they're still kids. At no point is there or could there be an ethical approach.

Lets put this into perspective for you. If you were to educate a kid on sex at an early age, they still have no concept of value or worth until much later in life. They're still too innocent and young to be able to make proper judgement calls. So by engaging in an act like that with someone who's WAY more prone to judgement errors is taking advantage of them. Just like we don't encourage young kids to engage in dating until they're teens.

Would you take advantage of someone who was mentally handicapped? It's pretty much the same thing here. Kids are smart, but they're still just kids. Emotionally and mentally, they are kids. Regardless of how you slice it, you're the adult, you know better. They're kids, they don't know any better. Kids doing things through exploration with another kid is acceptable, but an adult doing things with a kid is clear cut and dry wrong.

Even if it's consensual, it's STILL statutory rape. The child might be consenting, but they don't know any better yet. They're not capable of making properly informed decisions. Smart? Yes they can be, but not as smart as you're giving them credit for.
QuestionMark
10 years, 10 months ago
A reason? Perhaps, but a great many things in our culture have little reason other than cultural bigotry.
I have mentioned (I think) that as of yet there is not enough evidence to act on this IRL in good conscience. But yes, we ARE, in fact, talking about actual pedophilia, not some RP fantasy. It was supposed to be obvious. It was also supposed to be an open-minded discussion into a topic nobody wants to talk about (which I guess you did a fairly good job at participating in).

I would mention that I am looking more at what humanity can be rather than the capability of what it currently is. Even though people have improved a lot, child raising and schooling is still pretty abominable, and this does effect what the end result is going to be.
BunnyFoxglove
10 years, 10 months ago
Different places around the world support different views on how to raise your children. In parts of Europe, it's more common place to have sex education at an early age. Do I feel it's wrong? No. I think teaching them young helps prevent taboo associated with sex later. However just because they're educated on the subject doesn't mean they're able to consent.

A child's mind is under-developed. They are incapable of making properly informed decisions. Until such a time, it is inappropriate to take advantage of a child just because you want to experiment. Even if it's the other way around, the child is making a poorly-informed decision, and as the adult you should know enough to say no until they're old enough to make the decision properly.

This is why pedophilia is wrong. The people who suffer from it are often incapable of restraining their desires and act upon impulse. I have no issues with people who feel an attraction to young children, as long as they don't act on it. However I do think it's better for them to seek help before they do something they might regret.
QuestionMark
10 years, 10 months ago
A valid point, for sure.
I think, after having some time to really think on it deeply, I find myself coming over more to your perspective. Not entirely, but enough to be a bit more objective maybe.
Roketsune
9 years, 8 months ago
*smiles excitedly and tilts his baton towards you as he pads in* It's a shame this journal has not received more than one respondent. Hell, my own hebephilia journal received almost 3x the views this has and there were no replies at all. You'd think there would be more interest in conversing with someone who is a self-professed pro-pederasty hebephile on sensitive matters... *shrugs and smirks* Anyway, what I will have to say I'm sure will come across as being rooted in bias and 'rationalization', though I think I'd come to the same conclusions even if I had no desire to fool around with children. You'll probably see me as a deranged and obnoxious enemy, but, so be it. I just really wanted to listen to your justification for a couple of things you stated, as I'm left a bit bewildered and do wish to test out a new and shiny argument.

As for the actual act of pedophilia, lets not forget the physical damage you could cause. It's just an all-around no.

Well, we are in agreement on this. I support an absolute AoC for vaginal/anal penetration at 12 or 13. I don't think anyone younger than that needs to have adult-sized cocks or dildos jammed into them no matter how appealing it is to them.

When you talk about an "ethical approach" that makes me worry about you. It sounds like you're trying to find ways to justify carrying out the act so you can commit such a crime and defend yourself later in court.

It could be that, or it could be he's really trying to be rational and not give in to this moronic moral panic going on regarding childhood sexuality. I cannot speak on his emotional stability or whether he is/was sexually active with children, but one does not have to be a pedo/hebephile to say what he did.

The concept of curiosity and exploration is far different than someone with carnal motives taking advantage of someone with a young mind. It's not too hard to persuade a kid into doing something, especially if you're in a position of power over them.

A child's mind is under-developed. They are incapable of making properly informed decisions. Until such a time, it is inappropriate to take advantage of a child just because you want to experiment.

See, you are operating under the assumption that all adult/child sexual relationships are consistent with the evil stereotype. Provide me with evidence that the adult or older teen has, in every single sexual encounter with a pubescent or prepubescent child, willfully taken advantage of the latter and used them for their own sexual gratification, leaving a trail of destruction in their wake. Demonstrate to me that those who have asserted they were in a rewarding pederastic relationship are actually lying or delusional.

They're kids, they don't know any better. Kids doing things through exploration with another kid is acceptable, but an adult doing things with a kid is clear cut and dry wrong.

Even if it's the other way around, the child is making a poorly-informed decision, and as the adult you should know enough to say no until they're old enough to make the decision properly.

*shakes his head* Is there some spiritual or magical and incompatible aura adults have that will harm a child in the event of a sexual encounter? Nothing I have observed in my 34 years of existence on this accursed planet would support the assertion that a 12-year-old will be traumatized automatically if the giver is 34 rather than 13 (I haven't ever acted on it- I'm just giving a theoretical). Unless there's some magical force I'm not aware of, it seems to me the reality is you have fully subscribed to very fallacious and irrational societal morals. Maybe you're a self-loathing pedo/hebephile, though your interest in cub porn does not provide sufficient evidence of RL attractions. Either way, it's pretty sad, really.
Roketsune
9 years, 8 months ago
Damned character limitations... I must finish this with a second response.

Even if it's consensual, it's STILL statutory rape. The child might be consenting, but they don't know any better yet. They're not capable of making properly informed decisions. Smart? Yes they can be, but not as smart as you're giving them credit for.

Kids don't know what they're getting into, nor the real consequences it could have in the future.

Here is this shiny new argument and maneuver I alluded to earlier... How is this any different from what we make children do now? It's perfectly acceptable to subject children to religious rites to permanently bond them to the parents' faith, and to compel children to adhere to those beliefs at all ages. We encourage them to decide on a career for themselves or encourage them to follow in our footsteps. We let them (especially the girls) get piercings. We make plenty of other life-altering decisions for children.

How is moderate sexual activity done completely voluntarily any worse than circumcising them or making them remain in an incompatible church, therefore? Somehow children are not able to consent even to masturbation from older people, yet those same people are absolutely entitled to otherwise treat children as property and set them on any course they wish? Political and religious affiliation, genital mutilation, and other major issues are far more life-altering potentially than sexual contact with adults (assuming it's not an unmitigated act of violation, obviously), yet I do not hear you or your ilk denounce those things being decided at young ages as well. Your "They cannot possibly consent to such important decisions!" argument is therefore invalid.
Roketsune
9 years, 8 months ago
*smiles broadly and raises a paw and baton in greeting as he arrives* It's a pity this journal only received one respondent until now. The first part especially was very effectively written and was quite objective. I may well show this to people in the future when I have debates over pederasty, as you explained the reasons it is not automatically bad and the concerns about as well as I could have.

However, it seems you're rather conflicted, or at least were. When I discovered I was a hebephile I just shrugged and saw no problems with my attractions or my beliefs on the matter, as society sucks anyway. Of course, that was nearly 10 years ago and I can more eloquently and intelligently defend my position. But, it seems many of my kind don't have that benefit at first and see fit to berate themselves over nonsense... Anyway, what is your stance now?
QuestionMark
9 years, 8 months ago
Ahhh this is an old, old journal.
My main issue is that I try not to do dissociation; things in my mind are an integrated system, which means...well, things are governed by principles. I have/had an issue with my tendency towards liking things like cub/shota because I know it would be wrong to actually do it, and that principle extends into imagination as well.
I really don't think it's healthy to split off parts of your mind so that "this act is wrong, but here, it's fine because it's not real." But I still do it :P.

These days, the issue remains, but I worry about it less. Interest in cub/shota/pedo comes and go's almost like seasons.
Roketsune
9 years, 8 months ago
Yes, I was aware of the date this was posted. That doesn't change the merits (or lack thereof) of the various comments and stances, though. BunnyFoxglove doesn't seem to have checked into InkBunny again since I challenged him on his comments. Should he decide to join battle, this should prove eventful. *grins mischievously as he straightens his scarf*

Anyway, I'm very libertarian on behaviors that have no negative impact on society. I used to utterly revile people who were into guro and such, but after hearing a couple of them speak on RL versus fantasy, I realized the basis for my hatred was faulty. What fantasies and artwork one beats off to has no bearing on other people or their condition, which means it is not a moral issue. I am an extremely morally, logically, and ideologically driven person ultimately, and many of my political stances are very authoritarian in nature. However, when an action harms no one else at all, it is not a moral or practical concern societally, so there should be no reaction at least from the government. I will admit, though, it does give me pause and disconcert me when someone finds cubs being dismembered or something arousing. I *do* think something is very wrong when it the deviancy is to that level.

Of course, seeing as I don't find pederasty or child/adult sexual relations to be immoral or harmful by default, there's even less reason for me to find what I paw off to disturbing. The picture I just posted of two pubescent brothers going at it, I wouldn't find anything wrong with IRL. Actually, now that I'm pondering the matter, I only masturbate to underage humans and anthros going at it, and I obviously find nothing wrong with that if I don't find RL sibling incest immoral. However, I think pederasty would be a helpful custom for sure.

I can understand to a degree your position on the matter. Fantasizing about it legitimizes the act in a way, or at least it seems so. However, it's rather foolish to be concerned about pawing off to that kind of thing, especially if there are only cubs involved.
QuestionMark
9 years, 8 months ago
Indeed, indeed. It's less a matter of what I proscribe to others, and more about me trying to refine myself to a greater mental state.
Lately, I'm delving into ideas about how immersion into fiction and "suspension of disbelief" provides an exploitable vulnerability to propaganda; very interesting stuff.
Like, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2mKqJetgO4

But yeah, my position on pedophilia is that all current evidence points to it being harmful, but nonetheless that evidence is heavily tainted by other factors. But points strongly enough that I'm erring on the safe side.
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