Me and AI by Selene < Journal | Inkbunny, the Furry Art Community

Loupy

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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I have a few AI arts done by friends, but it's just for fun and silliness. If I want to get something, I still hire artists.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Loupy

Just as I said it´s fun and silliness but just nothing more

MviluUatusun

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Owner

Thanks, Selene. I feel the same way where AI "art" is concerned. I can understand and accept it if an artist draws something and uses AI to enhance what he/she's already drawn, but to use AI from the very beginning is just wrong. Don't get me wrong, I've seen AI art that I like, but I would never purchase it because it has no soul. After all, if the "masters" could give us 3D-looking art with paint and a canvas, then artists should try to do that, too.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ MviluUatusun

Yep that is for me the main point

TauMaxim

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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A controversial opinion:

With the ballooning of art prices that aren't showing any signs of slowing down let alone coming back down, I see AI as an equaliser, and a way to maybe curtail this price inflation. I would love to commission several artist, but I simply don't find it worth it anymore. 5 years ago yeah I'd have jumped at the chance, but I didn't have the financial security I have today. A true example: Kajlii opened up a series of commissions for $45 - the harem series, minimal customer input and a lot of artist freedom - 10 years ago. Today the same commission type starts at $150. No. Thank. You.

I know that art is a "luxury" and artist don't owe us anything. But we don't owe them anything in return. Is it fair that AI is using their works to train on? No, but this is the natural evolution of the digital space. I have no sympathy for artist that are raging against AI and doomglooming that AI will steal their jobs. You want to stay employed? Adapt.

There are artists out there that I really want to ask them about their sanity with the prices they're advertising. A YCH starting at $500+? $500 for your to "colour in" a base? With almost no adaptations allowed? ...

I think I've said enough.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ TauMaxim

Hmmm yes a valid point I have seen some artists who have prices which are way out of anyones pricerange.
and yes people need to adapt but it´s both ways customers also needs to adapt and that is a compromise

but it´s just my opinion

worldf0x

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ TauMaxim

This actually reminds me of the piracy problem in videogames:
There is no study to show that stopping videogame piracy through software or legal action increases sales in any significant way. The problem being that people who pirate videogames were never likely to purchase them in the first place. If you stop them from pirating, they simply won't play your game.
You saying, "things are too expensive I'm not buying anything. They didn't used to be so expensive but I didn't have as much money so I didn't buy anything then either," has the same vibe. Something tells me you never would have made a purchase regardless of the situation. You're just making an excuse for your actions. Which is fine, I guess. You can be a scumbag if you want to be. But don't get belligerent about it, and don't blame artists for doing the exact thing you're telling them to do in the next paragraph, which is "Adapt."

TauMaxim

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ worldf0x

1. Don't put words into my mouth,
2. I actually pirated a lot of games, and if I liked them went and bought them,
3. I am adapting. The artists that would have gotten my money aren't getting it now,
4. I actually did grab that $45 slot by Kajlii. But I don't see their art being worth $150 now,
5. What part of "5 years ago yeah I'd have jumped at the chance, but I didn't have the financial security I have today" was hard to understand? If I had the cash I have today, I'd have gotten a lot more art back then. The fact that it's 5-10x more expensive today is pushing me towards AI. Or simply saying "Fuck it, this ain't worth half of my monthly income".

And I think you missed my point in general. The ballooning art prices are pushing more and more people towards AI, making it a viable way of generating art. If these artists would lower their prices back to normal ranges, AI wouldn't be as prolific as it is right now.

AI is a purely capitalistic response to the state of the market. A niche - a need for cheaper art that was made by price hiking - and someone exploited it.

worldf0x

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ TauMaxim

1. I didn't put words in your mouth, I made a conjecture about your character based on the information you've presented, and frankly I don't think I'm wrong.
2. Uh huh, sure.  You'd be a statistical anomaly, then.
3. I didn't say anything about YOU adapting.  Not sure where you got that from.
4.  Would you like a medal?
5. I understood that perfectly, and made my statement on the matter already.  Try reading it again.

You've got something back-asswards here. Artists aren't inflating their prices arbitrarily, they're matching their prices to the world around them (adapting).  Everything costs more money now, and people's time, skill, and talent are no exception.  They aren't a machine, they need food and shelter and an internet connection to ply their trade.  If they didn't raise their prices, they'd starve to death; That's their capitalistic response, and the only one that they have.  They're not "Price hiking," they're just trying to make a living.  You're implying that they should "adapt" to AI by lowering their prices, but that's simply not a viable option, especially not in any sort of way that could compete with AI pumping out free garbage forever.

upsetbunny

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ worldf0x

I sort of agree with both of you. Artists will charge what customers are willing to pay. This isn't about furry stuff, it goes for traditional art too. Fortunately this also goes for Ai art. It might not be as much, but some people are willing to pay for Ai art, for whatever reason. If there is a market, people will buy and sell. I use ai art mostly for... ahem >.> recriation, and for that purpose, it has quite a lot of utility. I feel human art can be just as soulless, it's just a synonym for bad. There is a lot of bad art out there, hopefully they will improve, but I've been targeted by several really bad artists to pay for their work. it's a fairly simple interaction, but it's quite repetitive. They will show you a piece, then they will ask if you like it, if you say it's cool (usually because you're being kind) they will ask you to pay for a piece. When you say no thx, they will press the sale even more. This is also part of the market. I've started telling people that as that their art is actually bad. Breaks my heart though. They are learning, you have to start out bad to get good. Hopefully they don't give up and become the next Iskra or Clara and we will certainly appreciate them and pay for their work if we can afford them.

Selene

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ upsetbunny

And that´s a good last word

worldf0x

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ Selene

It isn't, actually. This person is being scammed by a chatbot. See my reply to them for details.

worldf0x

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ upsetbunny

Woah woah woah woah woah.
That's not the market, that's a scam. You're being hustled.
It's usually AI chatbots doing this hustle as well.
It usually starts by DMing you, it's from a mutual chat group, it says it likes your PFP, ask a few questions, then go in for the sell. It links to an art gallery, all of which are either AI generated or taken from other artists (you can tell by how wildly different the styles are. Also check watermarks) It asks if you like one, then pressures you to pay money in some way.d

If someone is trying to get you to pay money for something that they showed you, that's a scam, and you should alert the admin of whatever chat group it says it came from.

Do not, I repeat DO NOT give it money.

Even if it wasn't an AI chatbot, that's still a shitty high-pressure sales tactic. If it was an actual artist doing that, they'd be an asshole. But I'm willing to bet it isn't artists doing it.

upsetbunny

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ worldf0x

It's not impossible. But the art they were showing was incredibly awful. I wouldn't pay them for their work. Not awful like bad ai. Badly drawn art. There is a lot of it out there. Don't worry. I wasn't in danger of paying them anything. Thank you for the warning.

GreenReaper

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Owner

Yeah, I don't see AI stuff as something you should be paying for, either - at least not beyond the physical compute to run it, but that's pennies. But I also don't see it going away.

I've seen a lot of it used for RP by those who can't justify paying for even a relatively cheap commission (in many cases replacing the outright theft of people's personal artwork, which I feel is a net positive).

Some people also have disabilities and for them it can be an opportunity to participate in the community in a way they couldn't really do before (or no longer can).

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ GreenReaper

Absolutly yes AI can help and I don´t see it go away either but I also can´t say it´s bad.
If it helps people to participate in our community that is a plus

ShadowedEmber

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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I agree with basically all of this as is.

I have used AI art generations specifically to get some ideas for designs, then taken them to a friend to commission them for actual art.

I have used an AI music generator to take lyrics that I wrote myself, to get a somewhat viable version of it as a song, but I also want to re-record it with a friend, or a family member doing the actual instrumental and me singing.

AI is a tool that can be utilized in specific situations, but using it as a *replacement* for anything is just ridiculous to me

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ ShadowedEmber

For getting started or getting ideas it´s great

ShadowedEmber

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Selene

Yea. Prototyping and such it makes sense.

SerathDuo

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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*Nods* the only reason I'm dabbling in AI art is simply because I'm so stressed out and anxious, I can't put pencil to paper. Believe me, I'd love to be drawing stuff by hand again.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ SerathDuo

For stressrelief it´s like a fidget toy. ^^

VerbMyNoun

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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Personally, I believe that AI is a TOOL meant to ASSIST writers and artists. I do not believe in AI as a replacement for artists or writers. Anything 100% AI generated is not art. The very definition of ART is "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power." AI does not have skill or imagination, nor is it human, so by definition, AI cannot create art, regardless of how much time and effort the AI "artists" put in to the coding and training of their generators.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ VerbMyNoun

As an assist for people to be creative or to get a few first concepts it´s great

VerbMyNoun

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Selene

Agreed! Or, the way SicMop uses it for backgrounds.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ VerbMyNoun

and he only enhances his backgrounds that is totally ok

SissyLeo

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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I would only use AI as a stop gap or to prototype an idea. I would never use it as a final product. For example if I wanted to try and prototype concepts for a D&D character to get art of later, I could use that to get some base ideas and tweak them before going to an actual artist for the proper piece or to get the miniature made.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ SissyLeo

Yes I use it mostly for RP where I create NPCs or landscape or buildings with a quick picture for my group.

Or I use it to get a closer look for an idea of an commission

esanhusky

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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The only difference I have is something I heard from someone else, people give AI a set of commands for the AI to interpret and render a result, therefore AI "artists" are actually programmers

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ esanhusky

Well yeah that is valid

Rodgerblue

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ Selene

I like the term "director" myself.

It's a tool like any other, and like any tool it can be used ethically/morally or not. The tool itself is not evil, it is how it is trained and used by the user/director that determines that.

Gwyllion

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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AI creators are far less than writers. Writers create; they weave stories with the written word. AI creators are more like coders. They input a command and a machine does what they instruct.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Gwyllion

Hmmm yeah also a valid point

Karmandel

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Owner

@ Selene

This. I was a bit miffed about the "only writers" in the OP, since the only art I can create is stories.

I even thought the "programmers" label was a bit insulting at first, since my day job is making servers do what they ought to. But I'm mixing it up with the managers who think they can get functional code from something like CoPilot and their servers won't catch fire. Convincing SD to do what you want is a skill, even if you and I don't think the result is as good as human drawn art. ("Lifeless" hits the nail on the head). I'd even allow that someone who can prompt CoPilot or ChatGPT to make code that works, is a proper programmer. The point is that they have to know enough that they could make the code themself, and it might even be quicker.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Karmandel

Yeah OK writer is a bad word for it but in the end the peeps just write some promps (mostly single words not sentences) and the AI does the rest Hmmm worders is probably the best word to describe them

worldf0x

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Selene

Suggesters
Machine operators
Pilots
Those people who nag artists asking for free art but not even bothering to make the empty promise of "exposure" in return. Is there a word for that? There's gotta be a word for that.

GreenReaper

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Owner

@ worldf0x

I believe "AI director" is the term most commonly used, which aptly communicates that they can direct but not always fully control the end result, and that they are heavily reliant on the work of others.

Xennos

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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The only type of AI enthusiast I strongly dislike is the kind that replicates an existing artist's style or characters precisely, and then creates content with those characters that the original creator would never have considered. If not I have no bones to pick with any of them, AI will always be just a tool. Good or Bad it's the one wielding it.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Xennos

True true and yeah create your own OCs to play with not use someones else

furryfluffywolf

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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Edited 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Owner

Well, there is one good AI generator you can buy a subscription to. It's called Frosting AI, and it's the only AI I've seen that can assist your artwork in finding and finishing it, adding more life to it, which I used on 2 of my art, but i did not pay for it just used to free version but still did some what of a good job here and there but it would done better if i brought a subcription but i rather not.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ furryfluffywolf

Completly understandable

RuneGalin

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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AI art can go to hell

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ RuneGalin

Pure AI yes It´s at least for me not up to snuff

SnowtheBear

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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I would call it programing more than writing.

Gen AI is a theat to us writers too. Personally it already feels like us writers are second class members of the community compared to illustrators.

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ SnowtheBear

Well writers is a bad word I think worders is a better choice

Zeikcied

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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Yeah, I'm kind of the same.  Generative AI is a neat tool.  Shouldn't be used for profit.  Shouldn't be corporatized.  It should be run on a person's computer, not in data centers.  Especially not data centers so big they need their own power plant.  It should be a fun tool for people to play around with, and that's it.

And my own rules for AI are: It's not "art," it's just generated images or writing.  Don't call yourself an artist or a writer.  And don't use it for profit.

I've used some AI image generators.  I have Automatic1111 installed on my computer, even.  Never shared any of my gens, except maybe with one friend.  But I've found it far too frustrating to wrangle the AI to do what I want.  Models, loras, other add-ons, other tweaks, all the settings, it's too much.  And the docs for the AI "explain" the options using terms that I've no idea what they mean, and the docs don't define.  Or they define them in ways that are just confusing.  And I never cared enough to seek out a "plain English" guide to any of it, because I don't want to get that deep into generative AI.  I just wanna casually play with it, not become a "bro."

Generative text AI, though, I use far more often.  AI chatbots are fun.  I got some installed on my computer.  KoboldCPP and Silly Tavern, plus a ton of character/scenario cards for ST.  The options for those are just as confusing as image AI, but I feel like I don't have to worry about that as much.  Sometimes I still struggle to get the RP to go where I want, but as a writer, I feel like it's more natural to get the AI to do what I want than try to fumble with positive and negative prompts for images.

As an aside, I really don't like the excuse that generative AI helps people with disabilities create things.  In part because I genuinely question if the people making those arguments are actually disabled themselves, or if they're just using disabled people as a means to justify AI.  But like, other than people who are blind (who probably have no interest in visual art anyway), I don't know if there are any disabilities that could really prevent someone from drawing.  With modern technology, like eye tracking, even a quadriplegic person can, in theory at least, use a mouse cursor.  And if you can use a mouse cursor, you can probably draw in a painting program.  It'll take a lot of time and patience, and it might not be the kind of "masterpiece" you wish you could create, but you can still create art.  It'll still be your own.  And it still has a place in the art community.

Generative AI doesn't make you an artist.  I like the results, for sure.  I have thousands of generative AI images saved.  I'm not bashing them or the stuff they post.  But they're not artists.  They're part of the art community in the same way a commissioner is part of the art community.  Because that's kind of what they are.  They're commissioning images from the AI.  (Which isn't actually AI, but that's another argument for another day.)

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Zeikcied

Ufff
Good points
Don't be mad that I don't write an essay as an answer but yeah your points are solid

Zeikcied

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Selene

I'm very wordy. I don't expect others to be as wordy in response. :P

Selene

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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@ Zeikcied

😚

upsetbunny

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ Selene

Both of you fuckers are really good artists. I really love your art. Do not stop your shit! If you have to take a break to ponder or shit on Ai artists, go for it, but you're doing god's work, keep it up!

KitDragon

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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To me, AI helps make unrealistic movies (think the 1950s sci-fi/fantasy films) into something more palatable, allowing epic stories to come to life. I think it is fun to see traditional art done on AI just as a what-if.

However, I want a human's skill and talent on the cover and interior of my books. I want art drawn by people who are letting their soul flow into their medium...so yeah...no AI for my books/personal art

Selene

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ KitDragon

Well it´s funny to see what AI makes of such movies but yeah in the end you just play with AI

Smolfoks

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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It was a fun thing to play with for a bit, but seeing multiple art sites turn into AI landfills and watching the witless masses of disrespectful gooners contribute their opinions on the matter has left a very sour taste in my mouth.

People can try to argue morals, flex egos, be absolute troglodytes and argue for hours, but at the end of the day like many things in life it simply boils down to being given the option to be a good person or a shitty person. A tool like this gives you the option to do either, and the way things are looking it's unfortunately another situation where the tools weren't the issue, it was the people misusing them. It gives me the same vibe as witless people making blank accounts on sites like this and posting stolen art trying to get attention.

There's nothing stopping you from producing a bunch of slop with stolen source material and enshitifying a site built from the ground up by actual artists... But there's also nothing stopping you from being a good person.

I don't expect miracles from strangers on a porn site, but a bit of decency and respect for the creators who made all of this possible does a lot more than you might expect.

Selene

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ Smolfoks

Yeah respect and decent behavior is something you would expect and most give that but you have always some people who don´t know what that is sadly
*hugs*

wollypegger

2 weeks, 3 days ago

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This.

Selene

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ wollypegger

Yes

IGSA101

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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AI is hardly even writing, though it can help you get better at the basics of description and detail in order to get the best results.

Selene

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ IGSA101

true true

IGSA101

2 weeks, 2 days ago

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@ Selene

I always consider AI art and writing programs as learning tools. Since the tools have good grasps of the fundamentals and most of art improvement is learning the fundamentals, and how to break them.

MickeyCardinal

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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In regards to A.I I mostly use it as a reference tool. I use it to develop a idea or new character that I want, trying to visualize them before contacting a artist to actually do the art. A.I to me is merely a tool that is used to finetune ideas so that I can show the artist the poses or how the character looks like roughly. Its useful in that aspect. I honestly think that people will always pay for a good artist because a artist... excuse my mystical shit but... There is passion, soul and love in their work which I feel A.I sorely lacks. That's a good thing cause it means the artist gets paid to bring the ideas to life so to speak.

Selene

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ MickeyCardinal

As a tool to start somewhere it´s fine

Tanna

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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I agree that AI can be fun to play with and I have used AI for small things like DnD character references. But for real art that I share for more than just a quick "This is what I look like" or for DnD characters that I really like that are more than one off characters, I commission folks for real art always! :)

Selene

2 weeks, 1 day ago

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@ Tanna

Perfect answer ^^

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