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🌱 They/Them

by Uluri

Not using preferred pronouns because a Trans person doesn't look Transitioned enough to you is like saying a person isn't a Furry because they Can't afford a fursuit (in the simplest of terms).

Hi, I'm nonbinary and go by They/Them (I look nothing like i'm gender neutral or gender fluid). I'm also a DiD system who's other Headmates go by different pronouns than myself and i respect their wishes too. I've gone by They/Them before finding this out btw. I have friends and Family who are Trans with prefered pronouns. So, I've got some personal firsthand experience. Using preferred pronouns isn't a personal opinion, it is basic respect for another person. This Includes everyone not just trans people; Cis, trans, nonbinary, etc. There is no way to be "partially respectful" to another person's existence, you either are or aren't and there is no halfway point in being respectful. We all have preferred pronouns after all, even you.

As an example, Calling you She/her because my personal opinion of you is that you aren't male enough for me is rude as Hell. But, when you deny other people's existences because they either can't afford to look the way they want, or it's too dangerous to look the way they want, or they are where they want to be and it's just not up to snuff for you. That's Bullshit. It's hateful. You are treating someone as less than. Even if you hate someone because they hurt you, that wouldn't take away who they are, and you DEFINITALLY shouldn't be taking that frustration out on other people either. It's not healthy.

I really do hope you can take the time to think about the things you've said, and why people are upset with you. Maybe find a healthy way to safely look into those feelings.

in responding to the bsky link

Viewed:	100 times
Added:	3 months, 2 weeks ago 10 Apr 2025 17:34 CEST

10 Comments on this Journal

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pierogero

3 months, 2 weeks ago

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some people never grow

GreenReaper

3 months, 2 weeks ago

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Edited 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Owner

I'd be fine referring to you (or anyone) as 'they', or your name, because to me that doesn't communicate anything about my understanding of your sex to others. That's all that matters to me - I don't go out of my way to say "you're X" when that isn't wanted. I just don't want to say something I believe to be false.

Likewise, if you honestly feel 'she' is the right pronoun to use for me - because you think pronouns should be based on perceived gender identity, say, and you feel I act in a feminine manner, have long hair, etc. - I wouldn't have any complaint. It's your voice. I wouldn't want you to lie on my behalf, as you see it.

If you did it to try to get a rise out of me, counter to your honest belief about me, that's closer to rude, but I can take it. I'm a big boy. (Or girl? 🤔)

Uluri

3 months, 1 week ago

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@ GreenReaper

No I didn't write this to get a rise out of you. I genuinely wanted to write to you, and the Journal is how. Especially with open discussion.

Now, on "THEY" I'm they/them only because I have chosen that. Referring to a person as "They/them" to be neutral before knowing their pronouns is fine. But once you are knowledgeable of someone's pronouns, you should be using their pronouns. It is not false to use people's preferred pronouns. It IS false to NOT use people's preferred pronouns when you know what they are as you are denying their selves as a person.

You see, You are talking about your personal preferences of pronouns as Gender Fluid, but ignoring other people's personal preferences for their own selves. Saying "She/Her is fine for you as long as [the viewer] sees it that way" is your own personal preference for your pronouns. You are describing how you feel about yourself and what is okay for you. This should not be applied to other people because they aren't you.

Me? I am not the same as you. My pronouns are They/them regardless of how I look. How I look has nothing to do with my Gender. I can wear dresses, or Cargo pants and I will still be they/them. My hair can be long, or short and I am still they/them. Not she or he. My looks aren't what determines my Gender, and it will be rude as all hell and disrespectful to call me she/her after I've told you my pronouns no matter what as I am not She/her. That's not who I am and never has been.

-----

Perhaps this can help you out.
1. Person doesn't have their pronouns in their bio, they are female presenting to the viewer.
a) Say either, "She or They" or ask pronouns to start with. This is a nuetral use in the beginning if they don't already have their pronouns listed.
b) They say their pronouns are he/him. Now you refer to them as he/him from that point on.
c) Ignoring their pronouns and continuing to refer to them as "she or they" knowingly is absolutely rude and disrespectful. You are imposing your own personal preferences on them.
d) You are talking to the person and forgot the pronouns. You can ask them again to get the correct ones and continue again from there.
e) You are talking to a different person and forgot the pronouns of the person you are talking about. You can default to "They" until you either remember or ask the person again for the correct one again. (refer back to c, "They" is neutral only if you do not know the person's preferred pronouns.)

Uluri

3 months, 1 week ago

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@ Uluri

Another Example not using Gender is Names. It's very similar and I know a lot of people who've had to go through this growing up (friends, family, and enemies even.)

Story A
My first name is Micheal (Mike-All). I would like to be called Mikey. Everyone Calls me Mikey and I am happy and feel respected. This one teacher calls me Micheal. That's not MY name, it's Mikey. Micheal is my other friend Micheal! (or dad or something) This teacher is purposefully using the wrong name. It's very disrespectful and treating this person like they don't matter. This makes me feel unseen and very sad. I'm Mikey. Also, the bullies keep calling me Micheal (Mi-Shel). That is Also not may name. They are horrible, and make me feel very bad about myself and angry at them. A Substitute teacher accidentally called me Micheal (Mi-Shel) reading my name off the attendance sheet, but I let them now it's Mikey. :D They got it right now so I'm pretty happy now that they are calling me my name now.

Story B
My full Name is Mary Anne Sue. I would like to be called Anne. I really don't like my first name. I wish my Middle was my First. (Repeat story a, but for Anne)

Story C
My Full name is Mary Anne Sue. I HATE being called that though (Maybe they don't like being a "Mary Sue" or they were named after a dead person or are a JR. There's many reasons to hate your own name). I really want people to call me Sam or Samantha, because I think Samantha is a really nice name instead. My friends, family, and teachers started calling me Sam and I love it. It makes me really happy! Some people Still call me Mary and it doesn't feel right. I hope to get my name changed in the future.

GreenReaper

3 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 3 months, 1 week ago by Owner

@ Uluri

"	You see, You are talking about your personal preferences of pronouns as Gender Fluid, but ignoring other people's personal preferences for their own selves.

No, that's not right; you have misinterpreted my point, which is that pronouns are a matter for the speaker to determine, not the subject, because they are an assertion of fact about the subject from the speaker's perspective (as if they were describing their eye colour or height), and if there is a conflict the best way to avoid it is to use non-asserting alternatives like "they".

Let me put it another way: I think the "right" pronoun for me is "he", because I am physically male. From my perspective, "she" would be wrong. But I do not seek to force that understanding of what pronouns mean on other people's speech. They can call me "she" if they think it is more accurate, from their perspective. Or, they might use "they" (which does not imply a specific sex), or my name, so that our differing understandings of how pronouns should be used don't conflict.

I'm fine calling you Mikey, Anne or Sam, because to me that is not an anything but a name. Perhaps the first two somewhat hint at male or female, but far less strongly than 'he' or 'she'.

"	No I didn't write this to get a rise out of you.

I didn't mean to imply that. By saying "if you did it" earlier, I meant "if [someone] used 'she' when they did not think it applied based on their own understanding of what pronouns communicate, that might be rude". It was in comparison to the preceding possibility ("if you honestly feel...").

Sorry about that. English can be ambiguous. An alternative for 'you' is 'one' (hence 'someone'), but that can also be confusing because it is also a number! 😸

Uluri

3 months, 1 week ago

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@ GreenReaper

I am not misinterpreting your point. I Know exactly what you are saying.

"	No, that's not right; you have misinterpreted my point, which is that pronouns are a matter for the speaker to determine, not the subject, because they are an assertion of fact about the subject from the speaker's perspective

It's Incorrect. Names and Genders are the "Owner" of the Person's preference NOT the "Viewer/SPeaker". You are indeed being a Butthole if you as a veiwer/Speaker are referring to a person as "She" when their Pronouns are "He or They", and you are a Butthole for Refering to a Person as "Anne or Micheal" when their name is "Sam or Mikey."

"

I think the "right" pronoun for me is "he", because I am physically male. From my perspective, "she" would be wrong. But I do not seek to force that understanding of what pronouns mean on other people's speech. They can call me "she" if they think it is more accurate, from their perspective. Or, they might use "they"

Yes, You are giving consent for other people to use your preferred pronouns; That being "He is most correct, but you don't mind she or they based on who's viewing you". And that is VERY MUCH OKAY! But it's only up to you (Owner of self) to decide whether you are comfortable with being referred to like that. It's not up to me (The viewer/Speaker) to decide if you are okay and comfortable with that. I Consent for people to refer to me as They/Them, and do not consent to being called She/Her nor He/Him as that is what I'm most comfortable with. That's me. You do not get to tell me How I Feel about Myself. I Do not get to tell you how You feel about yourself. It was Never Up to me (The observer/viewer) for you to be comfortable with being called something other than "He". That's ONLY decided by you (The owner of yourself). If you didn't want to be called a she/they then it's not difficult to only refer to you as "he", and if one day you only want to be referred to as "He" on all occasions and are no longer okay with being referred to as she/they I will surely do so. It's not difficult, and it's okay. Thank you for letting me know your preferred pronouns.

And yes, Like we both talked about, if unknown "They" is indeed a neutral term. But ONLY until you know someone's personal pronouns already. If you are still referring to someone as "They" instead of their preferred pronoun of "She or He", you are othering them, and indeed being a butthole. Really easy line to understand.

GreenReaper

3 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 3 months, 1 week ago by Owner

@ Uluri

I guess we will have to disagree. The words 'he' and 'she' have specific meanings to me. I may try to be tactful and not describe a person using such terms, if I believe they may object to them. But they don't get to make me say something that - to me - communicates the opposite of the truth to another person. They only get to control their own description of themselves, not everyone else's description of themselves.

To be clear, it's not "me telling you how you feel". I don't think 'he' and 'she' describe feelings, but physical attributes that can be objectively determined. It is not about feminine/masculine, but female/male. One could be mistaken in a particular case - one might call me 'she' because they think I am female. But that is very different from them being a feeling determined by the subject (or the speaker, for that matter).

Uluri

3 months, 1 week ago

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@ GreenReaper

"	it's not "me telling you how you feel".

You referring to someone as "She or They" when their pronouns are "He" is You Telling them "This is your shape" and not referring to them as who they are. Correct You aren't telling me how I feel if you called me She. You are referring to me as a body and not a person after all. You are Telling with that type of statement me that I am just a vessel/shell/body/object in a certain shape, and not a person. Physical Attributes are not the same as me as a Person. You are not just your outward appearance. Gender Identity, Sex, Hormones, and Your Chromosomes are indeed all separate factors of a person and still not a whole person's identity either.

Tbh, you are so very close. You do have preferred pronouns. You understand how you feel about yourself, how your pronouns makes you feel, and how you want other people to interact with you regarding your expression of your preferred pronouns. You just have a hard time understanding that not everyone's gender identities are expressed the same as yours, other people's life and experiences in Gender Identity are different than yours, and How ignoring that can hurt them. We also want the same respect of Being Called our preferred pronouns; a She if we say we are She, a He if we say we are He, or a He/She/Them(viewer pref) if we want to be a he/she/them(viewer pref) just like you do.

Also a friend is letting me share their take: "Like with clothes. Just because someone might look really good in a pink shirt doesn't mean they like the pink shirt. The pink shirt might make them itchy, or they don't feel good in it despite everyone else thinking it suits them. So instead they'll wear blue. Pronouns are the same. Some people are just "itchy" being called a girl or whatever, and they don't wanna be itchy."

GreenReaper

3 months, 1 week ago

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Edited 3 months, 1 week ago by Owner

@ Uluri

Most likely, I'm not even talking to the person at all! Rather, I'm talking to other people, to whom I wish to give an accurate description of that person's body's shape, if you want to put it that way, along with all the other things that I might say about them. That's what 'he' and 'she' mean when I say them; and that's what I think they are generally understood to mean to others as well, especially outside the bubble of fandom.

It's usually not that important that I do this, of course, which is why I don't mind using 'they' when asked. Especially at furry events, where we have lots of badges to help identify people instead. But that doesn't mean those words are free to redefine as being about gender identity, let alone turn into something like a name that is under the control of the subject.

If I were to base 'he' and 'she' on gender identity, it'd still be my perception of it based on the expression of the subject. That way the words would still mean something, because I'd try to be consistent between people who express themselves in the same way. But this is a far more subjective basis for pronouns - different cultures have different ideas of what it is to act masculine and feminine - and this is part of why I don't do that.

It's a bit weird for you to call what I said 'personal pronouns', because they are not about my personal preference. Rather, they're the ones that apply to me for how I believe 'he' and 'she' to be defined and understood. I might not particularly like being male, but at the end of the day I'm still 'he', as it's a description of my physical body. Unless I got sex reassignment surgery, at which point the correct pronouns would change.

By contrast, when I roleplay, I am typically referred to as 'she'. But that is because my character in that world is female; they can bear and lay eggs, generate milk, etc. The word is linked to their (virtual) sexual characteristics, just as in the real world.

I tried to reuse your analogy but it's late and it turned into something ridiculous like "saying you look good in blue when I didn't think it's true". At the end of the day, I don't want to upset trans people, but that may mean I and others with my perspective just avoid interacting as far as possible, due to the demand to change our use of language in a way that feels false / inconsistent, and an unwillingness to compromise on terms that make us 'itchy' because we see them as misleading to the people we are talking to.

Uluri

3 months, 1 week ago

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@ GreenReaper

Hey, If you are feeling uncomfortable as "He" in any way, that is Gender Dysphoria. How you feel about yourself (What makes you comfortable and uncomfortable about yourself) is something I do actually recommend for you to maybe talk about with a therapist if you are in a Safe Country for doing so. If you are in America, Mazzoni (LINK) is an AMAZING institute on this subject. They can help you find something more local as well. Like, I am NOT saying "Go get a therapist" in some bad way. PLease believe me in that. I really do like the folks who work here. If you are not in the US, you can probably message them and they can maybe get you in touch with some places in your own country.

And yes, what you described to me is indeed preferred pronouns for yourself as not everyone feels that way about themselves at all. Not even Cis people feel the same way as you with he/she/they (viewer preference) for themself. Most people I am friends with or just pass in conversation with similar Pronouns are more along the lines of Gender Fluid, Non-Binary like myself, Some Intersex friends I have, folks Not quite sure yet, and sometimes Trans, too, start with He/She/They until they find out how they feel most comfortable about themself.

Also, it is still VERY rude to refer to a person as their wrong preferred pronouns just because of the shape of their body. This is in all cases. Physically transitioning is VERY expensive. Not everyone Has Access to That. Cis people who have non-traditional gender freatures from their prefered Body (Women with PCOS for instance) suffer a lot of Hate and harrassment from people ignoring how they feel about themselves being a woman despite say being able to grow a beard or having a lower voice. Again, Transitioning Hormone Therapy is Expensive and not always accessible. In some cases, Taking any form of Gender affirming care can even put people in Danger because where they live will kill them, so it's not even an option to fully transition (Even something as simple as painting their nails for gender affirming care for instance). Not everyone can afford their clothes they want, and not everyone is safe to wear the clothes they want in their home. But we shouldn't put people down for not being able to get those clothes they want to wear.

If you are feeling "itchy" referring to someone as their preferred pronouns instead of only their shape, it's worth talking about with someone. You aren't misleading people you are talking to by referring to someone you are talking about as their preferred pronouns. We are people, not objects. You can Seriously put someone's life in danger by continuing to use the non-preferred pronouns talking about someone.

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