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Bloodhawk

I Think Tracing other people's Artwork is Okay.

If you are sensing the controversy,
then I hope you are rubbing your nipples in anticipation like I am right now.

I say tracing other people's artwork is "okay" but didn't state it was"great" in the title

I feel we as artists have let you down on a monumental scale in the way we have subconsciously made our personal skills gate-keepy and unattainable for you mere worthless mortals.

The art community (especially the cub community) suffers from a talent drain and it's distressing to see a minimal amount of new talent stepping up to the table and persisting at their developing craft. From my perspective, it's so hard to explain how I used to be the "new kid in town" and nipping at the heels of the OG's that founded this place, the very same owe and giddy girl submissiveness to the masters of their work dying to message them and worry I'd say something dumb.

I just don't feel I have my own heel-nipper, someone more talented in this field to not let me feel complacent and get the fire back in my step.

But back to the subject, I think tracing is okay, it helps motor-hand coordination, and it helps give you a good simple crash course in using a tablet, mouse, and traditional media. The not-okay part is claiming it is your own original Masterpiece. It helps with motivation because you're not doing guesswork and you will learn your simple shapes and line work.

I have an evil confession, a diabolical secret to share, I HAVE TRACED. When I was first starting out, I made this Pink husky animation, I call it my Frankenstein model, I would use a traced leg here, a traced torso, and arms from some other random artwork. So yes, I'm a big fat phony, but in reality, It gave me a HUGE stepping stone to learning an animation program I liked as well as giving me a stepping stone to experiment and improve. It's why I don't have that animation on this website and it's why I've never really been all that proud of it. (Plus when I was younger I was into all sorts of weird shit cus I was a horney little fucker)

But my deeper message here is, don't give up, keep scribbling stick men doodles with huge dicks and balls on them, Don't be afraid to get your work out there and show the world, start simple and be ready for criticism as well as embracing that negativity to use for your defiance as well as soaking up the positivity in the comments.

I can't stress this enough, please please don't go up to an artist and try to convince them that your traced work is a gift or an original peace, just mentally understand that this is just to help you improve as an artist.

To any artists reading this, WE DUN FUCKED UP BEING PRESCIOS ABOUT OUR ART BEING TRACED, now look where we are now, we sure in hell don't have a leg to stand on bashing AI art when for years we have been full-on Gollum possessive about our work and not even giving new aspiring artists a chance. We have got to bite the bullet that this AI trend is at least partially our fault, sure there will be a few who just shrug off the complexity and assume AI is the new silver bullet, but the harsh reality is that none of us have made the mental effort to offer any easy segway into the artist realm without making it seem like BEING AN ARTIST is just a chore. So I ask any other artists reading this, get off your fucking high horse and drop a comment on some developing artist work and stop being such a proud antisocial shit stain that his royal king or queen feels no need to engage with the lowly peasants, You have no idea what a comment means coming from an artist and how much inspiration it gives to newcomers, if It wasn't for those life-saving comments from the big dog's I probably would never be what I am today.

Cheers for reading.
note; please don't make this a big AI debate, I will delete comments that get too relative to that subject.
I'm already prepared for some of you to take my words out of context or at least put some deranged spin on it, so my block button is locked and loaded.
Cum at m3 bro.          
Viewed: 1,881 times
Added: 7 months, 2 weeks ago
 
ragnarakk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
As a learning method. sure! sometimes something feels hard to replicate so having somewhere to come from is fine~!
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
for sure! Even things we handle and see every day can't be drawn perfectly from memory, it's why references are an artist's bread and butter.
ragnarakk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Anyone that spurns references should probably reconsider..
ScampFan62
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I think I traced like 1 pictures (which is on my account) but other then that I try to do my own drawings and use other pictures etc as references.
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
SINNER! I joke, I joke. I think I see the one you are talking about in your gallery, You have a cute style coming along, you just need to post more often, I see some pictures where you haven't posted in a 1 month, more is always better (if the inspiration demons permit it)
ScampFan62
7 months, 2 weeks ago
its motivation and getting past the "this is crap" wall but I try. Id like for somone to do a reference sheet for my OC one day
Ipzum
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Just, yes.
cacklingbeast
7 months, 2 weeks ago
honestly my thoughts exactly! tracing is a very good learning tool, easier to get some idea of the shapes and such
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
this is a little off-topic, but did you know that Santa is a fat bitch, and another year and I ain't get shit?

I'm sorry, I couldn't help my self
cacklingbeast
7 months, 2 weeks ago
LOL
SPizza
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Nobody ever said tracing wasn't fine.
Tracing, posting and taking credits for it it's bad.
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
people have and do, but I'm not going to name and shame (and yes, I have found myself to be on the offensive of being a little overprotective of my wife's art)
missilver
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I feel the other way, i seen examples of someone tracing, posting it and crediting the original artist with it to the point where the tracer wasnt named on the post itself as in their words "it wouldnt be fair to take credits for it".

Despite this the comment section looked like some battleground up till the moment the mods removed the picture. There were cursing against the tracer and its supporters, people saying its fair play because the artist is credited, genuine confusion on how is this that much controversal and lots of warnings handled out.

Why would posting a trace be a problem when you credit the original artist, link in their picture that you used and go as far as posting it anonym on a throwaway account so no one can even connect it to you?
SPizza
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Because you are using it as a studying process, if you want to get the credits simply git gud.
caldaq
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Good points.
bullubullu
7 months, 2 weeks ago
It's kinda funny, but my old English teacher (second language for me) always said "steal with your arms and legs"
As in, for writing, you were supposed to take in as many ideas, plays on words, expressions and so on and work them into your own writing.

I mean, this was just for school stuff, creative writing stuff, but it is something I always had in mind, not feeling bad about "stealing" expressions and ideas from other writers as long as I felt like I put my own spin on it.

I will say, for tracing, when I see stuff that REALLY resembles someone else's style, and especially when there are money involved, it feels a bit worse. Maybe the... "style" steal rubs me worse because with art it is much easier to see, whereas writing will often be somewhat both "same" and at the same time "unique" for each individual writer I guess.

Still, tracing, copying styles (even just classic stuff like Disney, Pokemon or Digimon), is a huge first step for many beginner artists, and I wholeheartedly agree with the basic premise of this journal, that tracing is an integral part of many artists' journeys^^
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
there is a huge difference between blatant plagiarism and meme development/progression.
The harsh reality is that there is no such thing as "originality", but sadly people use that trope as the same as "free speech" and "I know my rights, give me your badge number" when it comes to the subject we shall not speak of. So without sounding like I'm using college drop-out phycology, art isn't very original.

Also, your teacher sounds like a blast, the phrase  "steal with your arms and legs" gave me a chuckle  
bullubullu
7 months, 2 weeks ago
He was my favorite teacher!^^
Cared a lot about teaching and broadening horizons and focusing in on the creative elements as well hehe

And yeah, all art is derivative, same goes for stories, plenty of stories are re-arranging older stories in new ways with new characters (many of my own too), but like, that's also what we call "tropes", the horny neighbour, the journey of initiaiton, lewd scouts, lewd teachers, there is nothing new under the sun with those themes
ryproar
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Tracing is fine to learn from.
I mean art is inspiration and practice. Tracing to practice and learn is fine in my opinion. Tracing then selling the traces for less than the OG artist is charging is bad.
Hell 99% of job as a mechanic who does hand painted pinstripes, and murals on cars requires me printing off sheets of artwork then TRACING them onto the car to be painted. How do most people think we do it? We are not Apple products... Yet. >_<
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
*gasp* your a big fat phoney too! shame on you! I will never trust a car mechanic ever again.
If I lived in America, I would ask you to put a Dickbut on my car.
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
" How do most people think we do it?


well.. durr! Vodoo magic of course.
Rethex
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Isn't evolving learning from others...?
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I mean, if you put someone in a dark box for most of their life they would have the mental equivalent of a potato, but my neurodivergence aside, is a definite yes to your statement xD;
Katlek
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Tracing is just a bad habit. When it comes to drawing there are better ways to learn. Most of us traced at the start because we didnt know any better. By pointing out traced art we show our dissaproval towards it. Your statement encourages a bad habit.
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
That is the general stigma around traced work, yes. But I think your opening up a larger context to human social acceptance in more of a generalization. To simplify, You don't socially exclude a toddler because he or she colors in a pre-drawn picture with crayons. I'll simplify even more, Smoking is a way worse habit than drawing over someone else's lines (this is an extreme abstract yes I know). And can't stress enough that your method might be completely different to another's learning, and you can't project what "worked" for you, because no two people are the same.

I do not assume people to trace for the rest of their lives, the same way you can't assume a human will use a coloring book into their 40's.  
Katlek
7 months, 2 weeks ago
" You don't socially exclude a toddler because he or she colors in a pre-drawn picture with crayons.


You don't, but that toddler would benefit more from a blank piece of paper.

No two people are the same but there are better and worse ways of doing things.
RedixDoragon
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Have no particular art talent myself, that said, I think I see a parallel between this and handwriting.  So back in what, kindergarden, first grade?...we're taught how to write.  Sure we're learning our letters but now we're applying that.  And to do so they show us a letter on the left and say, "copy that on the right." Or sometimes we had a wet erase marker and a transparency and literally traced over the letters.  It's a great learning tool.  Certainly when you've completed learning either the craft, OR a style that you're trying to mimic it can be a crutch to continue using it.  But everyone has to start somewhere.

Addendum: All that said, wouldn't think tracing would be as big a complaint by some right now given the explosion of AI art, which is like..super tracing.
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm dyslexic (becha cudnt tell)  and reading and writing is misery for me. I was put in all the special ed classes and we literally traced over all the writing with tracing paper for like.. 2 years, even then it took me 8 more years not to write all in capitals. but yes, I think handwriting is an art form in itself. you may think you don't have a talent, but there are people out there who literally throw paint cans at a canvas and get paid 1.3 million, so defining talent is.. yeeea I'm not going there before I rant.
FrIgIdToStY
7 months, 2 weeks ago
My belief is that tracing is neither good or bad, it's in a morally gray kinda situation where depending on the circumstances it could go either way.
Also if you do trace you should probably ask permission first and let people know when you're doing it.
Bloodhawk
7 months, 2 weeks ago
that is certainly a civil stance, but I don't think people will ask for permission on a multitude of things in this world, what I'm trying to say is, I don't think a swat team is going to bash someone's door down because they didn't ask for permission, people just do what they do, the only time I think we should get our big moody frowny faces on is when they use it for money, fame and no credit to the original artist.
FrIgIdToStY
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I agree with pretty much the entirety of the point that you just made.
CyanOtter
7 months, 2 weeks ago
THANK YOU
johnstart
7 months, 2 weeks ago
i don't remember tracing any art works but i assume i did at some point in school for some assignments, however i find freehand is more exhilarating, I wasn't a very good drawer but i did a very good valocirapter (i swear i butchered that spelling) with a picture of it to the side two years ago, now I'm doing freefinger drawing with digital art, and i am actually having fun with it

compared to my earlier art i'm also doing shading and lighting, now believing my earlier pictures were rush jobs, i'm now taking my time and adding more detail to the picture i also have a master who's helping me, which i do recommend for the novice artists like myself, keep in mind: my master doesn't do the work for me but gives me pointers on how to fix a mistake or make it slightly better

i hope this info helps, happy arting (is that a word? no? it is now)

edit: i had not after wasn't, i removed it
ShamelessPervertBull
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Everything is in the : "As long you don't claim it yours."

I mean, most of people learn by tracing first, for fun. Who didn't do that on pokemon cards? Or YuGiOh cards? or whatever shit? Just because they wanted to doodle, or maybe it was something more.

On my end, that's how I began to be into artworks. I traced many things to train my eye/hand coordination, but also hand stabilisation, round traits, etc...

At the end, nowaday, I end up often tracing a sketch over a photo, a cartoon/anime snapshot, an artwork, a sketch, whatever that could help me keeping something out of what I like from what I see. Like, a pose, proportions, hands positions, fingers positions, whatever really.

Once I have the sketch I want, after many of those "piece by piece adjustments", I draw my own version of it, I redo the lines and all to feel like "my vision of it". This is mostly because of the issue I have, no mental vision space. And, at the end? My artwork never look like anything I traced over. I don't see the difference of people having a very good air-to-paper "copy mode" or people like me, tracing proportions and shapes sketch to stay coherent in my artworks.

You said you don't want to get too deep into AI stuff, let me add a touch on it, because that tool could be great to use in the way I do. It's quite difficulte to find a precise pose of something, even if it looks bad. Being able to turn any picture where you pose to a sketch made by the generative tool? That's fucking awesome. Having black and white to work with is so easier than any pictures or snapshot from reality.

That being said, if people get itchy about "tracing" ... why are those same people using Clip Studio Paint and trace over the 3D models they import and pose in their uber expensive customer captive software?

Honestly, do your business, stay fair toward the material you train yourself on, don't offense anyone by scrapping their shit and post it on a bland twitter account whitout their conscent. That's all about it.

Keep being handsom friend, don't let anyone piss you off. And for those that read my post, all the same, stay nice, act wise, be safe and have fun.
KaoNocturatzu
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Agreed. I think it's more about what the purpose of the art is than how it's created. One huge problem I've been seeing a lot lately is how a lot of "artists" seem to violently insist that "how" the art is created is some kind of crime that should result in destruction or what the theme is based on thier own narrative and not reading into the artists' intent, spreading misinformation. This "controlling" of how art is made and what can be art through violence and censorship seems to be the only thing no art circles are actively condemning despite being very similar to the efforts Hitler made to censure and destroy "Abstract" art which he heavily despised. But if these people insist that art is meant to follow a strict set of rules that they dictate just to control what people are willing to pay for and make it all about their own tastes, then nothing we create even by hand is "art", it's just propaganda or commerce.

Still, they're only hurting themselves. Every time I see prominent artists complain about being censored or harassed because a group shuts down thier favorite source of income, I remind them of the nasty things they said to condemn those who were minding thier own business. So I have no sympathy.
Vlentin
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Huh, so that's why my drive to make art died a long time ago. I just realized I stopped tracing and then lost my muscle coordination after I stopped drawing for a while; and then didn't like my pieces after it happened. And then I had some bad encounters with artists...
KateHanami
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm not sure about tracing being the problem, but more like gatekeeping the art
when I started in the fandom, saying something bad about an artist would make everyone in the vicinity to throw down
personal interactions would let you to believe the artists were a poor class of workers that draw their fingers to the bone for ends meat
and there's 70$ art commission left and right, trying make the clients the guilty ones for not having a second job to pay the artist primary job

rant aside, I think the issue is lacking free resources, I know I would not want some random people finding an art I've commission, erase my character and replace with their own
HOWEVER I would feel flattered as all hell if someone said they like it and asked to do one

on top of that, drawing requires a lot of different skills on different facets, so if someone were to be inspired by someone's art and can improve in one area where another is already done, such as YCH colours and modifying the lineart for a different species, the rest of the skills would turn up naturally
instead of trying all at once and be met with a barrier of entry, peeps could work on their strong suit first and bring the rest of the skill up gradually alongside it

and the meat of the issue is the lack of free resources, everyone and their mother's are looking for a way to sell art and get money for it
if why would anyone give people free resources when they can sell it? or sell a finished product? letting other learn to do it? help the community grow? not unless there's money on the table

I get there's a few great ones that knows better than everyone one else, and I guess there's a whole lot of wannabe that will be drunk with power on the first taste of power they get
still there's so much gatekeeping everywhere, the community is wired to protect the artists, for better or worse, and the artists are geared towards getting money first and art as a means to and end, rather than, you know, art?

the moment I found some good art that was free to use and edit with no fear of getting flack from everyone around, my skill improved 10-fold overnight, literally, with a could of F2U lineart and paint on windows, I could make a good piece in a single night, instead of strugglingly for weeks

this should not be a gated part of the community is what I'm saying
153291e
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Doing art without references is near impossible. Sometimes you need to trace that reference to get it just right. As long as you're using it to develop as an artist and not maliciously, why should anyone care?
Novuh
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm actually trying to learn how to draw, started just recently. I've been avoiding tracing because I was worried it would either be not useful or seen as a negative thing. Maybe I should give it a try a few times...

Getting started with drawing is hard. You see all these gorgeous pictures everywhere online, and then see the ... thing you created, it's hard to keep your motivation up...
Sumdumguy
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm not an artist, but if someone is tracing your material, you must have talent.
Dalmatin
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I agree with you! It's very strange that this topic is raised so rarely
Eonmoon
7 months, 2 weeks ago
eh. in reguards to tracing. if its Disney animation style they used way back when. then its fine. using previously crafted forms as references. movements and interactions ( the dancing of baloo and louie in jungle book was recycled for dancing between lil john and lady cluck. or mogli walking on the log was recycled for Christopher robin in whinny the pooh.)
 tho tracing something. slapping a new coat of paint on the exact shapes and calling it your own' WITHOUT credditing your source. is very bad form.
PoofyTheDragon
7 months, 2 weeks ago
I dont think that many people think that tracing is bad inheriently, its when you trace and then repost online is when its a problem, as a learning tool its totally fine!
Crim
7 months, 2 weeks ago
Absolutely. Use it as a learning tool, that's fine. Don't present a traced piece as your own work or use it in a commission though. That said, no artist owns the poses they use. I promise there's not a current artist who's invented something that's never been done before. If somebody uses a similar or even identical pose in their work, that doesn't make it 'traced'.
WoodyLover1002
7 months, 2 weeks ago
By the way, Bloodhawk. I was curious if you plan on doing more of those awesome animations you did back then? Just a curious question, since I love your work, pal!
Prince10
7 months ago
When will you make more art and videos?
DSHooves
6 months, 3 weeks ago
I started doing art by tracing over DBZ screen shots with my paper pushed to the monitor. As I got things like shonen jump, I traced from that. It helped hone some hand eye coordination. COME AT ME BIRDBOI (Also, give Xan a huge hug for me!)
Ipzum
6 months, 3 weeks ago
I'm paperclipping this, because yes.
beastman007
6 months, 1 week ago
I think the only tracing ive ever seen examples of recently only the past few years was Butch Hartman tracing to draw shadow the hedgehog he just traced it and added no flare to it. Anyways i hope you make a return in animation someday soon
FazBearBrony
5 months, 3 weeks ago
I hope you will do art and animations again soon.
MinusUnderscore
4 months, 3 weeks ago
If you trace a lot and get good at it, you'll never become a good artist, but you'll become a great tracer. I fell for the lie that tracing was "Good for practice" because I was given false information from idiots who didn't understand what referencing is. All great artists reference, they don't trace. But I still see people that label both as equally good or equally bad, it's insane! So I took that bad advice as a newbie artist and I traced a lot. I got DAMN GOOD at tracing. I eventually used my tracing powers for good and created high res versions of really blurry art people couldn't find better versions of. Still proud I found a use in the end. But I did also send in "fanart" that was literally just a trace of the artist's work that I was sending it to and I die of shame and cringe every time I remember that. Tracing is not okay, unless you WANT to be a tracer. If you want to be an artist, suck it up and be a bad artist first. Because being a bad artist is essential on the path to becoming a good artist. I've found the art community to be FAR more friendly and helpful since the old old days of 2006 and prior. Tutorials and artists showing their work process are all over Youtube. I don't think we've ever been in a better spot... Well okay Flash's death was a severe blow to animators, I felt that one, but it didn't end things at all. We got right back up!
So I really don't know where you been spending your time, Twitter maybe? But elsewhere I'm only seeing more and more positivity. Yes even with cub art, I'm seeing a trend of haters getting clowned on. It's just... We keep losing a few sites to archaic and arbitrary rules every so often. And the war on AI is absolutely doing nothing to help artists, it's just an excuse for angry people to keep being angry. It's a distraction.

When I say "You'll never become a good artist" at the start, I mean that you can never become one from tracing, just to clarify. Not that tracers can never become good artists. I myself was SO OLD when I learned how to actually draw, and not a single thing I learned from tracing made my art better. In fact it felt horrible to feel like I suddenly got worse. It was like I was writing with my left hand. But I kept going, got criticism I could finally use, and now I enjoy art and have a couple fans, and my art is still worse than my tracing. I'm still not a good artist yet, but finally FINALLY I am getting there. This is so much more enjoyable than tracing! I just had to take the first step, and tracing is absolutely not a first step. Tracing is quicksand on the path to being an artist. if I just had someone explain it to me 10 years ago, I could be that animator nipping at your heels... Or maybe if I can be cheeky, I'd already be on your level. 10 years is a lot of real practice to lose. And I lost it all to tracing.
Bloodhawk
4 months, 2 weeks ago
My journal says nothing about tracing for 10 years. and I didn't say tracing will make you a great artist.
bestbuds
4 months, 2 weeks ago
tracing can fast track certain skills and knowledge. i'm all for it! i did it lots. even froze frames from animated movies and traced over them. i'm not an artist but I walked away with lots of little realizations about how something looks, why a line is where it is, experiences of being surprised by just how large or small something is in terms of proportions - stuff that might take many attempts to nail down without a solid reference or a way to compare what you're doing to what you want to do. it's a totally valid learning tool!
ShySketch
4 months, 1 week ago
Lineart is a type of art that only other artists actually see or care about.  Most consumers are completely blind to it.  It's also really obvious when it's traced (to other artists).

Tracing lineart is useful when you're collaborating and trying to learn another style or blend your style with another artist.  But you gotta trace it in the order that the artist draws it or it won't work.

It's a pretty good warmup for new artists, especially if the actual artist who made the original is giving pointers on it.  Like I said, the order the lines are drawn matters a lot to actually getting it down~ UwU
kst3xh
4 months, 1 week ago
...I am so tempted to doodle that last comment now "Click Click - Block Button Lock and Loaded Bitches! Cum at m3 bro!"
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