Inkbunny

I know I'm not the only person who thought this upon reading it- I mean I just can't be- but, how does that even work? Unless I missed some detail somewhere in all this. @_@

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ BerretMC

Weaselgrease gave MadDog permission to use Weylen and Ichitro in a story MadDog is writing. Apparently, the character of Jarvis, Weylen's dad in MadDog's story - including the visual design for the illustrations WG did for the story, is a character created by MadDog, and is a different character and design than what WG has created himself to be Weylen's dad.

So, since I had only seen the WG illustrations, though I knew of the story they were drawn for, I still thought the character of Jarvis, like Weylen, was owned by WG and simply being lent out to MD for his story. Had MadDog simply pointed this out, asked me not to draw him again, and unblocked me to give me the ability to acknowledge the request, that would have been the end of it. But instead, he just used the gift pic as an excuse to comment at me and try and continue a previous argument. I let WG know that I wouldn't draw MD's characters anymore, and - admittedly my bad - had assumed he'd pass that on, but I shouldn't have assumed such. MD made another comment just repeating the point and still stewing over the previous unrelated argument - I don't know what he expected from either remark since he blocked me from responding - and that was twice random bullshit from this asshole managed to piss me off on what had been okay days amidst a long string of not-so-okay days. So yes, my reaction is admittedly a bit excessive. By my patience overall has been worn down too much to really care.

nekkofox

11 years, 9 months ago

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Ugh, so much unneeded drama, don't you think? If you drew his character...BIG FUCKING DEAL! Who is he to want to police the actions of everyone? It reminds me so much of the creator of Foamy the Squirrel, and his opinions of fan-art and similar (in fact, I know of several furry artists with the same thoughts) and says, quite plainly "I don't care. Do what you want. I'm not here to tell people what they can and can't do. That's stupid".

Personally, I think he should be pleased that you opted to draw his partially-owned (seriously, how do you "partially-own" a character? Half an idea in its creation?) and aren't charging him money! I know I wouldn't get butthurt if someone drew my character Tod, I would be honored they liked the concept enough to take time and put in effort to do it. It's a pity, but I suppose there are two sides to the story. All I'm saying is he shouldn't be getting upset over your drawing something he only partially owns when it was a harmless mistake to begin with and cordiality would be a better tactic than his rude responses.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ nekkofox

Nono,

If I had ANY idea that this character was his, I would NOT have drawn it. I'm not in the habit of drawing the personal characters of others without permission, and I would never do so with the intent to bother the character's owner.

Hell, despite him having ZERO rightful claim to MadDog, I have refrained from drawing shit with that character specifically because of knowing it would piss this guy off, and I don't use my art to make people feel bad. It's hard, oh believe me, this guy has made me WANT to just post daily horrific gorey scribbles of this character he has no rightful claim to being torn apart or fucking itty bitty cubs or whatever else just to give back some chunk of the fucking upset he's caused me, but I still don't do it. Everybody sees how much I'll use my words to express my anger and frustration or whatever else, but I have always always tried very hard to keep my art just for happy-making stuff.

Had I any clue he owned this character - which was not a reasonable assumption given the character only exists as a secondary extension of someone else's character, "Weylen's Dad," - I wouldn't have drawn it. Had he unblocked me so I could respond to the comment he made to me, I'd have told him off directly and assured him I wouldn't be drawing any of his characters anymore, and reiterated how I wouldn't have drawn the one if I'd known.

But he didn't. So I got pissed, and my mate yelled at him, and I checked with Weasel to verify who belonged to who and I had to tell HIM that I wouldn't draw any of them anymore so long as they had any association with MadDog.

Then he just makes another fucking comment of the same shit, I dunno what the hell why, he didn't give me a means to acknowledge the first time, so how else does he expect me to acknowledge his bullshit other than something like this? :/

TL;DR: He is not wrong for expecting people to ask permission to use characters he owns. He is wrong for being a nazi about it when he personally uses a character he has NO ownership of as his fursona and this one is only >partly< his, and he didn't give me any means of acknowledging his hypocritical demand - that I still would have acknowledged despite the hypocrisy.

nekkofox

11 years, 9 months ago

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I see your point, however I still think he overreacted horribly to something that was 1.) an accident, 2.) not done out of guile, 3.) could be taken as an honor because, well, fuck, you're a great artist! Is it so slandering to have his character drawn by someone with talent? I certainly think not. And it's more the pity that he's upset you. If I was nearby I'd give you a hug of reassurance.

True story.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ nekkofox

1 & 2, yes, exactly, but 3 I don't agree with.

I know plenty of people have that opinion, and would just be flattered to have any art from anyone remotely popular, but I do not believe that being popular or able to draw or whatever else gives you a right to ignore someone else's wishes.

I would not expect someone to take it as flattery or be honored or appreciative or anything like that. What I would have expected from anyone else (because he's firmly established he's too disconnected from reality to be able to expect this from him) is acknowledgement that it wasn't intentional, and out of respect for the friend whom the gift was for - the friend who owns the character he made his character as a result of - that he'd have refrained from using that gift as an excuse to continue his feud with me.

nekkofox

11 years, 9 months ago

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I can respect that.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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"	Wolfblade wrote:
	and I don't use my art to make people feel bad.

+300% respect

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Don't throw respect just yet, I've never been so tempted to break that policy as I am with this guy, and he still might manage to push me to that point.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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Awww. Good thing you've built up so much for all these other things that if you do that it won't really dent my opinion of you. XD

Lyserdigi

11 years, 9 months ago

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i just have to say..
as if my irrelevant opion would hold any weight..
But i have personally heard you say over many of your sketch streams, that you would not agree to draw certain characters, as their owner was not present, and you did not have their specific permission to draw them on those situations..
I bet many have heard you say that during your streams.
so your claim of you not drawing that if you had known, is totally valid to me atleast..

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Lyserdigi

Yeah, according to his current journal, I don't respect his right to his characters.

Despite the fact that I told Weaselgrease quite plainly that not only would I refrain from drawing MadDog's characters ever again, I would also refrain from drawing any of WG's characters involved in that story either, until such time as they had no connection to MadDog. Just to keep from POTENTIALLY giving him yet another bullshit excuse to continue his perception that I'm doing shit to wrong him.

Also, there are multiple responses from me here on this journal, before he made his counter-journal, correcting people who were criticizing him for making demands about his character, stating that I >DO< feel he has the right to ask that his ownership of the character be respected. And I have stated multiple times that I do acknowledge his ownership of Jarvis and will not draw him or any of MadDog's other characters again.

Yes, I do point out his hypocrisy in being someone using a character without permission as his personal identity online, and I point out how the character I infringed upon only exists because he was allowed to borrow WG's character, and that it's shitty of him to repay WG's kindness to him by using a pic someone else did for WG as a simple random nice thing as an excuse to re-open this ridiculous feud. He says these are Red Herrings, I say they're reality that he's choosing to ignore.

Just as he chooses to ignore that I have, repeatedly, acknowledged his request to respect his ownership of Jarvis, and agreed never to use any of his characters again. Maybe if he'd unblocked me when he first re-opened this crap, I could have said it plainly to his face, so he could have ignored that too just as he ignored everything else I said to him in the journal he chose to use to get around my block and start all this back up.

Charn

11 years, 9 months ago

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fucking itty bitty cubs

XD

I'm just picturing someone rage-fucking gummy bears

wicked1one11

11 years, 9 months ago

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Stupidity runs high around here...

Caffrey

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ wicked1one11

Worst of all is that it is endless, too. :/

Bluewag

11 years, 9 months ago

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That sounds...uncomfortable :/

He's obviously upset about something, as indicated by the degenerating cohesion of his argument and the closing sniping comments. You drawing some fanart is, in all likelihood, not the ACTUAL problem, but just something that tipped him over the edge.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

@ Bluewag

Oh, absolutely.

His thing with me started fucking years ago, in the FA journal exchange linked to in the earlier comments in his journal that's linked here in this journal (omg drama pretzel @_@). He came to me, directly, personally, demanding that I throw Starling and InkBunny under the bus >right then and there, immediately,< because Starling had defended a journal where Arcturus lied about the reason for his FA ban. When I told him I needed to further look into and process this before I made such a journal - not even telling him I wouldn't do it, just that I needed to consider it a bit more first - he lost his shit at me and others.

Recently, when I made a >general< call for Thanatos' friends to act in his best interests and convince him to stop making an ass of himself, MadDog saw that as being the same thing as his coming to me personally and demanding I throw a friend under the bus. You can see his comments on that journal obsessively trying to draw a parallel between those two situations and ignoring everyone pointing out the key differences between them.

That's what this is about. Not the drawing I did for Weaselgrease. It's him needing to feel justified in his completely baseless and irrational perception that I have personally wronged him multiple times.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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Sounds like a real nut. o.o Sorry he's being such a pain dude.

Norithics

11 years, 9 months ago

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*laughs*
Wow. I mean, I made my own Rule 63'd version of Tails, but... I never claimed to own the character, that's just ego out of control.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Norithics

I haven't looked into this "father" character, but I'm not sure that MadDog is claiming that about...well, Mad Dog. If I'm wrong, I'll totally concede the point, but I'm not sure he's got that issue on top of all the other ones he's got. But if he has claimed it, yeah, total ego running wild.

I don't get how people get this idea they own trademarked characters like that, whether or not this case is a case of that.

Also, what's rule 63 again? I'm drawing a blank here. XD

Woolfbeard

11 years, 9 months ago

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"There is always a female version of a male character" (and vice versa).

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Woolfbeard

Ah, should have thought of that. Still, gives more right to call it Norithic's under "fair use/parody" than MadDog straight-up. (Though Wolfblade specifically says he has no proof that's what MadDog is claiming)

Woolfbeard

11 years, 9 months ago

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I think noone can own a popular Disney/Warner or elselike figure by his own and blame everyone for using it without permission. If so you have to check all the members of IB (or another page) Which characters are taken and ask them for permission using it... duh

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Woolfbeard

I don't think MadDog is claiming partial ownership of Mad Dog, or at least that's not what Wolfblade's accusing. My comment was meant as snark since, even thought Norithics doesn't claim the rule 63'd version of Tails, Norithics probably has more rights to the female Tails than MadDog has to Mad Dog.

But, as I said, it was meant as a joke, I wouldn't put it to a legal battle or something. >.>

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Yeah, made an edit to try and clarify that point.

Woolfbeard

11 years, 9 months ago

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Yeah, I don't take this really serious either. Just spaming my thoughts here and there :)
Everyone was living in peace. Then lawyers appeared...

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Norithics

A: MadDog wasn't the character he's contesting use of, the character of "Weylen's Dad" is the one that he's mad about, and Weaselgrease did confirm that the Jarvis character MadDog uses in his Weylen stories isn't the character WG has as Weylen's father, and MD does own that character - so complying with his demand that I not draw him further is not an issue, and I'd have told him as much had he unblocked me to give me the ability to do so.

B: He hasn't even made any changes to the MadDog character, so you'd have more justification to try and claim your female tails variant as your own than he has for the character he uses as a persona. Which, him claiming ownership of, isn't part of this dispute, and I added an edit to the journal to clarify that. He's acted as if he has say over that character, in forcing a change to a commission my mate had paid for using the character once, but to my knowledge he hasn't outright stated any claim of ownership to MadDog.

Norithics

11 years, 9 months ago

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Eh, maybe not explicitly, but using a canon character like that requires a lot of humility for it not to become weird and "No that's mine."

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Norithics

Oh, totally agreed.

I think it's ridiculous for him to make an issue of a character "not completely" his, which he only created for a story around WG's character that he was given permission to use, and when the offending image I did was meant as a little random nice thing for WG cuz I thought they all belonged to WG. The ridiculous is made more ridiculous by the fact that he uses an established toon as his online identity.

I just wanted to be clear I wasn't representing him as having outright stated any claim to ownership of that one, since, afaik, he hasn't.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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I actually was debating making a post to him about how the method of communication he went through was probably not the best, especially in how it circumvents the block. Honestly, I don't get it. If he doesn't like you, why not just get the friend in question to intervene and take care of this issue of you drawing a character that belongs "mostly" to MadDog?

I really don't like the attitude he's got with this, it's like he thinks he's allowed to bypass the block to tell you off, then the right to be upset when he's called out for it. He seems like a self-entitled twat who's obsessed with "taking you down a peg" over just living his life and moving on.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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I've asked WG a few times for his input on the dispute between me and MadDog, since, as MD's good friend, and someone who afaik had nothing against me, he'd be more likely to be able to point either of us to where we're out of line, and help facilitate an end to this nonsense. He has a very strong policy of non-involvement, and has insisted on remaining neutral. It's not an approach I personally support or think is best, but he has explained his reasons and I do understand and acknowledge them.

So, even if MD did ask WG to pass it along to me, I doubt he would have agreed to do so. And I admit fault in that I suppose I simply assumed WG would mention to MD that I'd acknowledged that I wouldn't draw any of those characters anymore, but duh, that was a stupid assumption of me to make.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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Non-involvement is the fastest way towards being involved in conflict, IMO. I've never found it convenient to sit on the sidelines when two people argue, even if they're friends. Ultimately, you're bound to be pulled in by the gravity of the conflict if they're close enough friends; no man is an island, and especially not to his friends.

I've also never thought a friend who's not willing to help someone be better and get over one's own drama and bullshit is very much of a friend. I'd rather lose friends for trying to help them than keep them at the cost of nothing ever being resolved. Sadly, most people I know would rather be on the sidelines than attempt to bring an issue to a close.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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That's kinda how I feel.

I can't sit there and see a friend unhappy. If I try to help and he cuts me loose because of it, then why would I have wanted to stay connected to him anyway? Conversely, if I am needing help to get out of conflict, and the people I'd act to help in a heartbeat all just sorta stand back and shuffle their feet and wring their hands and just don't want to be involved because ew, drama... it's really hard not to feel like they can't care as much back as you do for them. I've been through it before, and I know that people CAN still care even if they just don't want to get involved, but... in every situation, whatever the conflict may have been, it has always lasted longer than if anyone else had gotten in and helped bring it to conclusion.

The problem is that people know, in some conflicts, "conclusion" means having to cut someone loose. I'd rather cut someone loose than try to maintain a friendship with someone I don't really want to support - and I'd rather BE the one who is cut loose rather than think I have the support of people who really just don't respect me enough to tell me how they feel. But I often feel like a minority in that regard.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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Minority, but I can't help but agree.  Friendship is about support as much as anything.  What good is it to be someone's friend if you won't do what you can for what's best for them?  That doesn't mean always agreeing with them, it means looking out for their best interest, even if they aren't.

And the other thing is, I want to be called out by my friends when I mess up.  I KNOW I'm a screw up, I mess up all the damn time and am always willing to admit it if it's pointed out.  Hell, I consider that the best thing about my friends, the fact that they man up and tell me I'm out of line.  I've only learned how bad some of my behaviors are because of them putting me in my place.

Friends are more than about getting along, they're about challenging you when you need challenging.  Or at least, that's what I think.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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All the agreement. ;_;

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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Not my fault I'm just speaking my mind. ^.^;;

Or do you mean to many false friends just "agree" and play nice instead of being good friends?

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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I mean I have all the agreement with your comment.

And yes, too many times I see people being "good friends" by not speaking up when they think a friend is out of line. Or staying willfully ignorant of a situation to avoid even getting to the point of thinking the friend is out of line.

You look at MadDog's new journal.

He is all about demanding that everybody stay out of it and nobody say anything and when two people fight, everyone else needs to keep out. Because that's the only way his reality holds together. That's why this shit has gone on so long. Because nobody on his side of things wants to actually step in and tell him he's wrong.

Then look at me. I am BEGGING people to tell me if they see me as being in the wrong, but I just also ask that they >show me where and tell me how< beyond just the vague "well everyone's wrong when two people fight because that's easiest and doesn't need me to actually see what my friends have actually done to each other."

I build my perspective on reason and evidence and can and will support my stance when anyone questions it. You can see his journal I linked to, where I painstakingly tried over and over to explain to him how his perception was not what happened, pointing to each remark in order, with time stamps, establishing with visible solid hard evidence that my perception of the sequence of events matches what is observable, and his perception is simply not in tune with the reality of what ANYONE CAN SEE WITH THEIR OWN EYES to be there.

But no, Wolfblade, you're so stuck on always being right, why can't you just acknowledge there was fault on both sides, and just let this whole thing pass and move on?

Because that's not reality. Whatever I've done wrong, has been in response to his bullshit, and I am open to people suggesting what I could do better next time, but not vague blanket "well, you just shouldn't have done whatever you did, which I don't really want to be involved enough to really even know what you did, and I don't know what you should have done, but something different." And because I have tried to let it pass an move on. Every time he has instigated something with me, I tried to reach resolution with him and when he refused, I ended it. First time I blocked him, second time I just let it drop despite him adamantly refusing actual resolution of the one point of contention, the third time I blocked him.

Now he's slinging arrows at me despite a block. Fucking what do people actually want me to do to end this with someone who is HELL BENT on keeping a personal feud with me? And "just take it and let him do whatever mad fucking thing he feels like doing without expecting any of us to ever say a word to him" is just not an answer.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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Yeah, I think the "live and let live" solution went out the window the minute he started circumventing your block. I just have no idea what to do to resolve it.

"well everyone's wrong when two people fight because that's easiest and doesn't need me to actually see what my friends have actually done to each other."
Fuck this mentality. People disagree, it's part of how we're built. To try to be "never fight no-hate love hippies" is to go against out nature to challenge others and be challenged. The problem is that, when people don't want to help by intervening, shit can escalate, and nobody wants to be caught in the escalation. But that's the thing: if they'd step in before the escalation, there'd be nothing to be caught in! Seriously, it's like a bunch of furries are freakin' Switzerland because they don't want to risk things for the sake of someone other than themselves.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Yeup. :/

I don't expect people to put themselves at risk or anything, but when there's no risk to you except maybe having to face a truth you'd prefer not to, then yeah, I find willfull ignorance and choosing to cover your eyes, plug your ears, and go LALALA to be a really sad decision to make.

Actively trying to avoid seeing evidence because it may make you unable to keep maintaining a faulty perception you just want to maintain, is pretty fucking sad.

And as we covered in that previous conversation, you're a person of Faith, but even so, you won't maintain a belief when it has been >proven< to be false. :P

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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The human mind will do amazing gymnastics to avoid facing a painful or embarrassing truth. A good friend will help someone face those truths in the least painful way possible, if possible.

A bad friend lets them live with the delusion.

And I honestly would say I'm 50/50 reason/faith. After all, scientist. ;P And I think so far what's been proven is some people could drive me to drink, and I believe I'll have a beer. X3

Klorsis

11 years, 9 months ago

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WG had mentioned to MD that you probably didn't realize the chartacter was MD's before he even talked to you about it. To my knowledge he has said it since too.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Klorsis

Well, then I very very very much appreciate that Weaselgrease did mention that. I know he doesn't want to be involved, and I do feel bad about my attempts to convince him to say >something.<

I had felt like maybe if WG said something to MD, MD would let this crap end. But apparently, MadDog will ignore what he wants to ignore even when WG says it to him, so now I can firmly put out of mind any notion that WG could make a difference here.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

@ Klorsis

I apologize if my mentioning of this detail led any kind of backlash or angst in your direction. I'm hoping it didn't, but if it did at all, I'm sorry. I appreciated you letting me know this immensely.

When I talk about wanting friends to get involved when they see other friends in conflict, that doesn't mean take up arms and launch full warfare on either side. Usually all I mean is just what you did, making a simple statement or pointing out a detail someone may be missing that might speed the shit to a conclusion, or prevent shit from escalating to begin with.

If I'd thought to specifically ask WG to pass it along to MD that I'd said "okay, I didn't know, I won't draw Jarvis again," maybe this wouldn't have happened. Though WG telling MD that I probably didn't know didn't stop MD from sending that second block-dodge comment anyway, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference at all. But the effort still counts for a great deal in my opinion.

Salacious

11 years, 9 months ago

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Fuck 'im. I'd just ignore his blathering, personally. It's not like anyone who actually has half a care for proper treatment of other people will pay any attention to him.

When someone comes along and is a douche or a troll, paying attention to them and drawing attention to them only gives them what they want.

Mooglit

11 years, 9 months ago

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Partially owning a Disney character..?

Yeah, I stopped reading anything he said after that point.

Sucks that you get this kinda backlash when you do a gift for someone. :/ Seriously. Fuck.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Mooglit

Uuhhh...not to be rude, but Blade never claimed he said that. He's claiming partial ownership of a different character, not his "main".

Mooglit

11 years, 9 months ago

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Fair enough. My foot is delicious. All the same, He's reacting poorly.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Mooglit

No argument. And at least your foot tastes good, can't say the same for when I do that. XD

Woolfbeard

11 years, 9 months ago

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If that would be true... I claim ANY right on Pedobear and blame alllll the Internet for using it :P

JeremyMikales

11 years, 9 months ago

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What an asshole. Whatever else happened, shitting on a gift from you to someone else because you used a character in it accidentally, is a real dick move.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ JeremyMikales

The funny thing is, the character that I used which is "mostly" his, was created as the father of a character that DOES belong solely to Weaselgrease, which Weaselgrease had given him permission to use in his stories and to make that father character to begin with, and the gift pic that he started all this over was something I'd done randomly just to do something nice for Weaselgrease since he's just always been a fucking nice guy.

So the gift he shit on was meant for the guy who'd let him have permission to even make this character at all. :P

JeremyMikales

11 years, 9 months ago

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I also like the part where he assumed because someone was defending you, you must have hijacked his account.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

@ JeremyMikales

Well, that was initially regarding Wolfie, because he's my mate and lives with me, and who for the longest time held back from getting involved and saying anything to MadDog, as most of his friends do. So when Wolfie did finally speak up, it seemed jarring to MD because, obviously, a guy accustomed to everyone around him "staying out of it" (which he insists upon quite firmly) is accustomed to not hearing any objection or opposition from anyone he gives any credence to (the additional credence one gives to friends being the reason I generally feel friends should be the FIRST to speak up when their buddy is off the rails).

Of course, since Wolfie made his objection known, that of course is incompatible with MadDog's accustomed view of "friend" and MD dropped him like a hot potato.

I have another roommate who also responded unfavorably to MadDog, as well as some friends, and several people who are just watchers, who have commented against him, all of whom are apparently my army or I suppose I have some kind of mind-control influence over, so, yknow, be careful of watching me for too long or you'll be incapable of choosing not to do whatever it is I want you to do. :/

It was reeeeeally frustrating me, but now that I'm getting over it, it's actually hilarious. "Don't look at the actual history Wolfblade is linking you to, or you will be unable to stop yourself from thinking I'm a ridiculous nutjob, which is just what he wants you to think! That's how he controls you!"

I admit, this past month has really not been my best behavior at all. And the past few days, first I let myself indulge in the anger too much, and now I'm letting myself indulge in the petty vindictive satisfaction of just laughing at him. I usually try to be better than that. It's been a very rough year though, and I'm just too worn down to hold myself to my usual standards. So fuck it, I'll be more of an asshole for a bit then go back to trying to be better.

RokukeShiba

11 years, 9 months ago

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*hugs woofie* Sorry that you had to suffer through this drama :<

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ RokukeShiba

It's not suffering. It's just god damned infuriating.

There's plenty of people who've caused me significant upset or distraction or frustration or whatever, but that's always people where there was some sort of back and forth. Either they were assholes outright and so I was an asshole right back, or they were people close to me who eventually had a falling out, so there were lots of emotions tangled up in it.

This is the only time random-nutjob-I've-had-next-to-zero-interaction-with has managed to make such a personal feud out of nothing and then keep popping back up distorting crap that had nothing to do with him into some personal offense against him.

This time - where I >unknowingly< drew a character that >partially< belongs to him because of a story he's writing around a character that he's being allowed to use, owned by the guy I drew this as a gift for - is actually the closest thing to any kind of valid affront to him that I've done.

awakenji

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

*Is in janitor's clothing with a mop and a bucket.*
I think I'm gonna need a bigger bucket for this shitstorm.

Real Comment:
Why does such troubles always follow ye I wonder.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ awakenji

Because I usually can't keep my mouth shut.

If I was only here to give and take art, and just kept everything else to myself, and never spoke up when I see something that should be spoken up against, I probably wouldn't be involved in so much stuff.

I can't help but feel like what would be the point of bothering if those are the terms required to participate, though.

tobifur

11 years, 9 months ago

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Man I would hate to be in your boots right now, Why can't you just be respected for your art and everyone just get the fuck along. How the hell does this kind of crap start anyway. I think this is why you don't get into peoples personal shit, because down the line crap like this happens and it just makes it ugly for everyone to have to see. I just wanna see you do more art, and have something to look at I like.

Sorry you have to go through all this, I just wish this could be an art site and not a debate room.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ tobifur

See my response to the comment above. :/

tobifur

11 years, 9 months ago

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What about if you made an alt account, and made the same valid points you would normally.

Honestly even if people take you more seriously because of your popularity, a valid point is still valid all the same.

I just see it easier, that way your aren't having as much trouble through this account where people are trying to enjoy you for your art and happiness when it is present.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ tobifur

I've thought about separating my personal thoughts from my porn before, but I've had way too many people tell me that they appreciate and respect me for my words and principles as much (or more) as they do for the porn I make. And to be perfectly honest, the fans that follow me for both what I do, as well as who I am, mean so much more to me than the ones who get annoyed at me putting out anything besides just the porn. <:/

tobifur

11 years, 9 months ago

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That's a very good stand point and I like it. I have much respect for you now that I hear it put that way.

Keep it up man, More kudo points from me, tho I am no one to the community really. Or rather hardly anyone knows me

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ tobifur

Thank you, I'm glad you can see why I prefer being a person who makes porn sometimes rather than just a source of occasional porn. X3

tobifur

11 years, 9 months ago

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To be honest with me have been doing so much art myself, I hardly look at it as porn, I truly look at the detail and see the effort put into the work I look at. For me it's no longer a porn but just simply art. I like it that way and it being porn is just a plus factor in the equation.

Shokuji

11 years, 9 months ago

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Ah, I was completely unaware of any of this. But I would have figured this would have been closed months ago. ^_^; Ah well, hopefully nothing else upsets you, wolfie, foxie or syd. Try to ignore drama for a while, I think you'll be happier.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

It was.

He found a hole in the block system. He poked me. I ignored it. He poked me again.

All the other crap, all the pressure you know I've been trying to hold back and release more appropriately, etc, well I didn't have the faculties to ignore more than that first poke. So, kaboom.

I've released now, though. I'm just wrapping it up, making some closing comments to people, then it's done. Again. Yesterday I told him I was done and wouldn't respond further to him, and he made a smarmy remark and yeah, we should just not talk to each other, and I've already deleted the notice for the comment he sent anyway earlier today. :P The admins told me the hole he's using is not a flaw, it's normal conduct for a user to respond to his own journals, and "adding additional restrictions doesn't really make any sense." So he'll still comment at me when he feels like it, and I'll keep ignoring him as best I can. Until I can't. <:/

I'm only human, and he simply WANTS a fight from me. All I can do is try to not be goaded into it again, but sooner or later, he'll do what he did this time and catch me when I don't have patience available for his consumption, and he'll get the fight he wants.

Shokuji

11 years, 9 months ago

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I saw your explosion, at the very least I hope you feel better getting that out. [hugs] =/

As for the 'hole in the block system' though; It's not really a hole, it's the journal owner retaining their posting rights to their own journal. That's all. Just as you can reply to anyone that comments on your journals regardless if they have you blocked or not, the same is true for everyone else (on their own journals & submissions).

What you could (and maybe should) do is point out that you've asked MD to leave you alone yet he continues to contact you through a comment you've made on one of his journals, and request that all your comments made on his account be deleted. That way he can't continue to message you through one of them. It's one thing for a journal owner to retain their posting rights, it's another for the journal owner to use that right to contact someone who doesn't wish to be contacted.

The best thing you can do at this point is continue to ignore MD, and every time he tries to message you through a comment, send a support ticket. As long as you don't engage him and it remains one-sided, it should qualify as harassment and some sort of action would need to happen.

Take care of yourself, WB, sorry I missed out on nearly all of this, but hopefully you know you got my support regardless and I'll always be honest with you about things even if we may disagree. =)

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

When you block a user from commenting to you, I think most people agree that intuitively means you have blocked their ability to comment to you, period.

When they block you from responding to them, I think most people would also agree that there's no defensible or valid reason to allow someone to continue communicating with a person they have blocked from responding, and that intuitively, you shouldn't be able to comment to a user you have blocked.

The hole in the block feature is a hole. It is an exception. If you are blocked, you cannot comment to someone, there is a fence between you and them, EXCEPT in this particular situation; an exception, a hole in the fence.

Devil's Advocate: 'A User should always have the ability to comment anywhere on their pages, their spaces. On IB, a user is master of his own domain. We allow and defend a user's right to outright lie and erase any attempt by people to expose their lie. So, of course we will allow them to simply comment on their own pages. Even when that means they are responding to a comment you left regarding an unrelated issue months ago, for the purpose of trying to instigate a new issue.'

I do not see how this is supposed to be a harmless and acceptable behavior, or how it can be seen as something other than exploiting this exception for the purpose of opening an avenue of communication that both parties have already established their mutual desire to have closed.

Now, the proposed solution to this problem is deleting your comments, making changes to someone else's pages without their consent. But the hole in the block system is justified by the principle of users' authority over their own pages. 'If you want to flat out lie on your pages, even directly slandering other members or groups in the furry community with baseless intentional falsehoods, we proclaim it as your right to do so (though I doubt that right and protection would extend to people slandering the cub community).' With such an extreme degree of concern given to making users hold authority over their own pages, it seems absurd to me that such consideration is thrown out the window as far as whether or not they have any say in deleting comments from their pages.

Say two people have an altercation. Then one of them wants all of his comments deleted from the other person's pages. He cites this hole in the block system as why he wants his comments removed; to prevent the other party from making use of this exception to continue or reignite the argument at a later date. Do you feel it would be acceptable or proper for the administration to suddenly wipe out a large number of comments on your pages? Especially when this would require that all subsequent responses from yourself or other people be deleted too, or, if only the one user's comments are removed, the rest becomes an incomprehensible mess leading to further miscommunications of people thinking A said _____ to/about B when A's remark was actually directed at a comment that is now missing. Or do they say 'wait until he abuses the hole, and then (rather than just stop his abuse) we'll respond by altering his pages at your request.' That surely wouldn't add to the fire.

Don't tell an instigator "hey, stop using that hole to try and pick a fight with someone you know has blocked you, and who you still have blocked too" but offer to step in and make significant changes/erasures to their pages without consent if the guy they're fighting with asks them to.

Even if we say 'well, then they'd just have to obtain the page owner's permission to delete your comments from his pages,' then what happens if he says no? Tell the user he's fucking with 'too bad, sorry, we can't understand the reason for why this hole is a bad thing, and he doesn't agree to us closing this hole to keep him from further instigating conflict with you, so you just have to deal with it.'

How does any of this make more sense than acknowledging it's a hole and closing it?

Shokuji

11 years, 9 months ago

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I'm assuming you made this argument with them, so what did they have to say about it?

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

It went the same as every previous time I've raised an issue with them that they did not immediately agree with. It seems discussion is pointless, either they see the point and agree from the start, or they don't see it right away and thus won't ever see it no matter what I say or show to support the notion.

I make a simple point about an obvious problem.

I'm told it isn't a problem.

I try to expand the explanation farther of exactly how and why it is a problem, and am ultimately just ignored.

The above seemingly ridiculous stance that it is acceptable for a user to use this hole to instigate conflict through a mutual block, that this is considered conducting themselves normally, and the only offered options are for the complaining user to simply ignore the antagonist, or have all their comments deleted from the antagonists pages, is the final response they gave me.

I am sure if I were to specifically make a public issue of this point (I do not plan to), I'd get some remark about it being wrong of me to do so instead of talking to them directly and constructively. That even though each of the attempts I made to discuss this and all those other unresolved issues with them ended when they simply stopped responding and just ignored me, I would still be told that I'm not being ignored.

The only reason to have this hole would be if a person attempts to antagonize by blocking you and then commenting to you on your page.

There's no intelligent and justified reason for why a user should be allowed to comment to a user they have blocked from responding. If I have blocked you from speaking to me, in what circumstances would it make sense for me to make comments to you?

Rather than create a hole that lends itself to an obvious means of creating conflict, why not address the senseless and pointless other flaw in the block system that is used as the justification for the second hole? Being able to comment to someone you have blocked from responding is a shortcoming without justification, and is the only justification for the second shortcoming.

But they don't see it that way and are not interested in discussing the matter further with me, as they had made it clear they weren't interested in discussing the other matters with me either.

Shokuji

11 years, 9 months ago

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I suspect that regardless if it's a hole or working as designed it's probably mostly a non-issue across the site. I can only imagine that the number of times one person uses another person's comment to communicate with them post-block is fairly uncommon. So to spend any time on it right now may not make any sense as there are more pressing matters to deal with. Only so many hours in a day, especially for one coder.

From the sounds of it you'll probably like Weasyl (or whatever) since a block not only makes it so they can't comment, but they also can't watch either. In the end I'm sorry all this is upsetting you. Hope your site gets made so you can be a happier 'blade.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

-_-

It's not about 'omg they have to recode this right now now now.' Not everything is a coding fix or needs a new feature or reworking an old one. It's been pointed out how this hole doesn't serve any real purpose other than a potential avenue of abuse, so whether they code it shut or not at some point down the road isn't the issue. Just like the problem with keywords didn't need a new feature to solve it, and the new feature doesn't solve it anyway.

The garbage with MadDog using the hole in the block, or anyone else who might do it somewhere down the line, is fixed by a simple note of "hey, don't use this as a way around the block to try and pick a fight." Just as the keyword issue's real solution would have been for them to simply make keywords mandatory and actually enforce it reasonably (which they've already shown they won't be doing). If an image says the character is underaged, it gets a cub tag. Period. If it looks like cub but the artist insists it isn't, use neoteny or chibi or whatever else for 'looks like cub but isn't meant to be.'

The number of people actually just not wanting to participate in the filter system (and thus break it as a valid effective feature to draw people in) are very few compared to the people who came here because of the promise of a filter system and left when they realized they were lied to. Just telling those few people to cooperate with the site's primary appeal function was all that was needed (just as simply telling MD not to exploit this loophole to harass me was all that was needed). They'd rather lose a dozen non-cub artists than even risk upsetting a cub artist actively wanting to make the site less hospitable for people. Each of my points of issue with IB have been things where all that was needed was an actual firm hand towards a relatively small number of people in order to maintain appeal for a larger number of people, and to >validate< a better perception of the site than what people have been left to perceive it as. The haters dismiss it as this and that, and always will, but they've let most of those criticisms become valid points.

MaverickSkye

11 years, 9 months ago

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Geebus, can't catch a break can ya? Well, at the least you know how to deal with this kinda stress and nonsense, eh? If you didn't, I'd feel so sorry for ya, honestly. I just hate it when people have the need to actually say some negative stuff like that without actually thinking it through first. Understood, Mad doesn't like you. Not so much understood, why he needed to speak up on something partially his. Moreso that he knows that you can't, and wouldn't hunt him down JUST to get the permission just to do something nice for somebody.

Logic is here. <- Maddog is somewhere around...

-> here.

My point is, there wasn't any need to say and/or start anything here, on any level. If anything, he could just say, "Oh? Blade made something for Weasel? Ugh, he used my character in this? Whatever. At least Weasel got something nice." Could've been the simplest solution there. Didn't have to make it about himself isnce he wasn't the subject matter.

JTPF

11 years, 9 months ago

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Why all the rage? ;n;

RoareyRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Tit XP.

Lyserdigi

11 years, 9 months ago

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you silly goose you..

Chase

11 years, 9 months ago

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When I read, "Response to Mad Dog," all I could do was smile to myself and think... "Go on...!"

In all seriousness though, I've never been a huge fan of Mad Dog. He's a moronic, unattractive try-hard with a terribly nasal voice. I'm talking about the actual character from Tale Spin, not the user, although after my own personal experiences with the user, it is important to specify since they are so similar to each other.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Chase

"	Chase wrote:
	I'm talking about the actual character from Tale Spin, not the user, although after my own personal experiences with the user, it is important to specify since they are so similar to each other.

No no, I think you're confused. The sky pirate in the straitjacket wasn't Mad Dog, that was a different character. :P

Yury

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Ok......but..... Omg . I just understand 1/2 but That what i can understand is a Bit crazy .He dont like cub Art ? And is still on inkbunny i mean come on ..... .
I dont like all the stuff that was postet on this Site but if i dont like it why should i watch it ?

What I would do Block him ignor him .dont feel bad, not everyone wants to be your friend especially in the internet.
But that is just what a namenless Anno think;)

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Yury

The whole 'if you're not into cub, don't be on InkBunny thing' is a whoooole other can of worms, but that's another vent. XD

I did have him on block. He found a loophole, commented to me despite knowing I blocked him, and the admins say it isn't a loophole and there's nothing wrong with it. X3

So now I just have to try and ignore his comments when he keeps making them. :P

Yury

11 years, 9 months ago

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Yeah the " cub Thing " u are right ,Sry .
I think u can do it ! Just dont listen too him .
And go on i like u Art and many other people like it too.

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Am I getting involved in this?  Fuck.  I am, even though I really don’t need the stress, and I’m certainly going to lose fans for it.

I’m posting this both on MadDog’s and Wolfblade’s journals, since they’ve both blocked each other.

MadDog and Wolfblade are BOTH people that I have a lot of respect for.   Both of them are people that are very smart, have very insightful perspectives that have affected my own, and are very good at communicating their ideas, which is why I find it insanely ironic that they cannot communicate properly with each other.  I don’t believe for a second that either of them is the LameStupidAssPsychoDevil that both seem to think the other is.  And it really hurts to see both of them spend so much energy dragging the other’s name through the dirt in a public forum like this.

But I’m not here to try to patch things up between them and be a mediator.  I’m not here to argue the fine details about past issues, saying who did what wrong, and where.  I don’t believe that either of them are completely right and justified, and I don’t think that everyone should or has to be friends.  I’m here because I believe both of them may be able to benefit from my perspective, which is this:

No one can come to any real resolution, for ANY issue, no matter how small, if one keeps viewing every action the other does in the worst light possible.  Because then both will always feel justified in saying “I was trying to be nice, but HE had to be the asshole first.”  That’s why old issues still keep being brought up, even those that are put aside and “forgiven”, because they all seem to validate and compound why the other person deserves such abuse.  Little misunderstandings become snowballed into all of past history’s problems, because you’re already both thinking... “UGH... THAT GUY.”  You’ll never trust each other, or give each other the benefit of the doubt... tempers flare, and then the name calling starts... and it’s pretty much all downhill from there.

What bothers me more about the situation is how others chime in to participate in the derision when they obviously aren’t interested in another perspective and say things that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.  I couldn’t keep quiet because I don’t feel either of them deserve what’s being said about them, and I really can’t help feeling that were it not for past history, this issue about gift art really wouldn’t have been that much of a thing.  Please, and this goes for EVERYBODY... having a disagreement about an issue is one thing, but mudslinging and barbed insults are quite another.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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100% Agree.

RufusTheRat

11 years, 9 months ago

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Amen to that, man.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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First, thank you for saying something. Agree with me or tell me I'm wrong, or do both and neither, just so long as SOMETHING is said, that's what I wish people would do more. And I firmly believe that this particular feud would never have gotten this far if more people chose that instead of absolute uninvolvement.

I can - and have already previously taken the time to do so - point out exactly, step by step, how each of these things have started because of him being irrational and insulting at me. How the first time, I tried to reason with him and get him to chill and talk to me, only for him to disregard everything I said and continue being insulting until I finally just shut him down. How that was The End of it for me until his B.S. attempt at non-apology prompted that previous journal of his, and how despite him adamantly refusing to apologize for or even acknowledge the ONLY gripe I had with him, I still ultimately did what everyone seems to demand that I be the one to do - and just said "fuck it" and let it drop. I can explain exactly how he then threw out that whole exhausting process and once again took a journal of mine which had nothing to do with him, and twisted it into another perceived personal attack against him.

How he then used a simple act of me drawing something nice for WG as a justification for him to abuse a loophole in the block system and make this petty complaint about character rights - which I have addressed and acknowledged multiple times, even correcting others who say he's wrong for expecting permission of his character to be respected - and use that as just an excuse to try and re-ignite the separate previous issue of that last journal he took issue with.

If I am in the wrong, I want to be told how and where. And if I am indeed wrong, I do acknowledge and admit to such. But when I've had to revisit this specific garbage so many times, and have laid out time-stamped, this happened then this happened, then you did this, etc, YES, that may make me more cemented in my perception of what has gone on but I want someone to explain to me how and why I should give up a cemented perception - based on observable and referable evidence - besides 'he's not going to ever see it, so please just let him have his delusion and just accept the abuse he throws at you because that would be easier for everyone.'

I care about you, I value you, I trust your judgment. But the Simple Truth is that I had almost zero interaction with him, and not a drop of it negative, before he directly and personally disrespected and insulted me. Every single thing since has been his refusal to see what is laid out plain as day before him, and his insistence on the >verifiably false< notion that I disrespected him first.

I have dropped this several times. He is the one that has reignited it every time. He says we're best off not interacting and I absolutely agree. I have not ever been the one to initiate any of these interactions with him. And this current one he initiated despite BOTH of us being blocked by the other, he made a demand without giving me the ability to inform him I acknowledged and conceded to the demand, and he has ignored me repeatedly stating such here and to others.

Incredible claims require incredible evidence. I can present evidence supporting every claim I make or belief I hold in regards to this feud. I do not feel that I am being unreasonable if I say I won't accept that I am equally at fault without some evidence as such. And you know me well enough to know that I don't believe a person simply responding to provocation and attack rather than absorbing the assault deserves to be held equally accountable to the person who has instigated every incident of conflict.

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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The problem is NOT that you are responding to an assault, which makes you at fault... the problem is that you respond by attacking back, which involves a lot of name-calling, loaded language and strawmanning. You both do it. You both interpret actions and present them as "that idiot must think this, so therefore this, what an asshole." That only perpetuates a cycle, which is why issue 1 makes issue 2 a big deal, which sparks issue 1 up again. Nothing can ever be dropped, because the resentment you both keep *guarantees* that it'll just get picked back up again. It makes any 'evidence' you're looking for moot, because your interpretation of any of his actions will ultimately be colored by the hate you have for the guy. And because you can't talk to each other directly, you rant to your audience, which incites more drama and misinformation, since as an audience we can only comment on what we see, which is never the whole story. That's why I'm not bothering to give my thoughts about who started what and where any 'smoking gun' bit of evidence might be that would be the key to unlocking your misunderstanding and magically resolve your feud. But I think we can do better about not letting it continue with so much stress, flared tempers and vitriol. It's really unnecessary.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

In that journal of his, when I tried to resolve things, the audience gets to see the whole story. I link to every single comment in the original exchange. I'm not distorting the facts with a one-sided viewpoint. I'm showing what happened, what was actually said.

He was random person I only knew as friend of a friend of wolfie, he totally lost his shit at me, ignored my attempt to talk it out, started being insulting to others, so I blocked him, the end. I was forced to open that door again out of concern for the people mutually connected between us, he jumped my shit again, I blocked again, and he cut through the block to continue this crap. Anyone who wants more specifics, to see the real story, the full exchange, etc, I will SHOW it to them.

If people are seeing this as NOT one-sided, I want them to show me how it is that way. Look at what I've seen, what I have shown to explain why I see him the way I do, and then talk to me on how that's not what it is.

Not just assume that I'm distorting reality, intentionally or unintentionally, and it surely must be faulty perceptions on both sides 'because I like both of you and don't want to say either of you is at fault.'

It's easy for the bully who picked a fight to go "you're right teacher, we should just play in different corners" and to look like the high road one when the person who hadn't done shit but defend himself or strike back at unprovoked garbage just wants the >truth< to be known and acknowledged.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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More simply,

I respect and appreciate your call for everyone to just let this end.

I have done so - multiple times - and he has been the one to resume it. Every time. Every single time there has been conflict between him and me, he has initiated it, and I was the one to close the door and just End it.

I have him blocked and he continues to poke at me. I don't feel inclined to just silently ignore it. If that makes me as much at fault as the person who started all of this and has kept it going every time, then fuck it, fine.

I don't like being told I'm at fault without people telling me what I did that makes me at fault so I can avoid doing it again. And if someone wants to tell me "you shouldn't have ______" then if I value their opinion and judgment, I want them to know the situation so they can offer a better suggestion for me to do the next time I am put in such a situation.

I want to know what I should have done differently if I am to be held at equal blame for this stupid mess. Because the first time, I tried to talk, he refused, I closed the door. The door was reopened because of me again being pressured to put aside my issue with someone for the benefit of mutual friends, and despite that original conflict never being resolved, I just said fuck it and ignored my own feelings and left the door open because that's what people told me I had to do to not be the bad guy.

He made me pay for that by again jumping at me, so I closed the door again.

And now he's firing spitwads at me through the keyhole, being the one to GET himself involved with me despite my every effort to block that, while then spouting that he feels we just shouldn't be involved with each other.

Please tell me how I am once again spoken to as if I'm acting unreasonably or at equal blame as the person I simply want to escape from.

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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You may see yourself as "ending it" every time, but the fact that you retaliate with hostility means that you really haven't ended anything, just pushed it out of your field of vision. I believe it's your resentment that makes you do that. Dropping an issue, ceasing communication, blocking... it doesn't end things, it just puts them on hold, and it festers for another day. Stitch taught me that.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

>_<

I don't want things to fester. I don't want things left to sit, or set aside or ignored. I want them resolved. You know that about me! One of my biggest hangups is NOT wanting to just sweep something under the rug to just ignore that it happened and move on without it being resolved. I can point to me trying to reach resolution with him. You responded to his journal where I tried to reach resolution with him.

When resolution can't be reached, what should be done besides just let it drop and walk away? That's what people always seemed to want me to do, just drop it, forget what was done that upset me, ignore it, don't keep talking about it to try and find a resolution, just put it aside and let everyone else avoid drama. If I try to resolve things, and he makes it a fight again, what do I do? If blocking him was wrong, what should I have done? I listened to his side, I pointed out to him where he misunderstood and misinterpreted me. He kept dismissing all of it.

So I blocked him. And that was it. No name-calling, no public journal about him, I was done, again, because all he has ever allowed our interaction to be has been him disrespecting me, claiming something I did that had nothing to do with him was me disrespecting him, him ignoring all my attempts to clarify what he was misunderstanding.

He tries to start shit again despite being blocked. Making an issue out of a gift pic I did for someone. And I still didn't retaliate. I checked with weasel, confirmed it was his character, and said okay, I'd respect his ownership and then tried to go back to trying to get above the bullshit life is throwing at me and then he makes ANOTHER comment at me through the block.

I don't have infinite tolerance for just fucking bullshit from people I haven't done anything to provoke, and as time goes on I have less and less of it.

I retaliate like this. So that's bad of me. And he's saying how He's concluded we just need to not interact when he is the one who has instigated every instance of our interactions since they became ugly.

He has that journal up right now blasting me for not respecting rights to created characters and you KNOW that to be a lie. https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=46910

A friend told me he made a comment linking to all the instances right here in this journal where I said I acknowledged maddog's ownership of Jarvis and wouldn't draw him again. The things I have said here that nullify that journal before he even posted it. I don't see that comment there now, so MadDog deleted it.

He starts shit with me, I retaliate, yes, but I conceded to his right and his request, and he puts that up and then deletes when someone points out the falsehood he claims in order to protect his lie.

Tell me what I should have done instead. Please. Tell me that ANYTHING I could have done would have gotten him to just leave me the fuck alone when he has done what he has done every step of this stupid thing. Please. :C

Because it always seems like I'm the one being told I should do something different, but never precisely >what< people expect me to do differently when I have tried and tried and the other person is the one hell-bent on keeping it up.

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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I'm saying that you BOTH should be doing something different, and in overly simplistic terms, that is not to keep the cycle going by ranting publically about how the other wronged you and dragging each other's name in the mud. Stop arguing an issue by bringing up previous unresolved issues. Find something else that will vent your frustration and anger. So you've tried to resolve it with no success... fine, but that only means some disagreements can't be resolved at the moment you've tried. Some resolutions only come with time, as people change. When both of you feel you aren't getting the responses you want, both of you feel disrespected, both think you're the victim, both think the other opinion is "bullshit" and then proceed to lambast the other in a journals that only amplify and exacerbate the problem. This latest issue about this gift art is only an issue because you couldn't talk to each other in the first place through blocks and bitterness about the last issue. How can you really know what the other person is really thinking when all either of you are doing is getting word from second-hand sources, theorizing the worst case scenario, and then running with it?

This will be the last reply from me for tonight. Goodnight, all.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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"	How can you really know what the other person is really thinking when all either of you are doing is getting word from second-hand sources, theorizing the worst case scenario, and then running with it?

I linked to his comments, his words, his use of the gift art as an excuse to prod me about the other issue. His ugliness at Wolfie for him coming to my defense. Above that was the evidence of my attempt at resolving, and his refusal to acknowledge the one thing I felt was unresolved. No second hand sources. Not theorizing the worst.

Look what he said to me. Look how he presents it in his current journal. He deleted someone showing him how I already did all the shit he's saying I need to do. He claims I'm this and that, you know I'm not, I claim he's done this and that, you don't think he has, but I can point to him doing it.

I say he punched me first and then keeps popping up to punch me again, he says no, I'm doing that to him. This isn't his word vs my word though, I can PROVE every claim I have made. Why isn't that relevant? We're both saying the other has been intentionally antagonistic without provocation and intentionally disrespectful without justification, but my claims are fucking valid and I can prove them, and he can't.

Why does none of that matter?

Why am I sharing blame and fault with the person antagonizing me just because I don't know a magical method of getting him to stop? Observable reality matches the claims I'm making of it and conflicts with his, but that counts for nothing because just stop fighting?

elazulKaisman

11 years, 9 months ago

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"Why am I sharing blame and fault with the person antagonizing me just because I don't know a magical method of getting him to stop? Observable reality matches the claims I'm making of it and conflicts with his, but that counts for nothing because just stop fighting?"

This. For this, sir, I take off my hat to you. A measured response to an inappropriate action is far better than ignoring it and "trying to get along."

RoareyRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Right, wrong, whatever. He really bothered you and you didn't instigate it, so fuckin' rain down hell if that's what you want to do. The onus is yours because you're the one who got fucked with to begin with. I don't see you as equally at fault because reacting to something is clearly not the same as instigating something, or we wouldn't need terms that differentiate the two. Slap the bastard.

YamatoIouko

11 years, 9 months ago

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"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Why am I sharing blame and fault with the person antagonizing me just because I don't know a magical method of getting him to stop? Observable reality matches the claims I'm making of it and conflicts with his, but that counts for nothing because just stop fighting?

As an experiment, I challenged his "no reply" journal with a call to reason and rationality.  He responded with "Didn't read, and blocked. Nice, huh?"  Which, amazingly, showed he didn't read my comment, as the first thing I said in it was I that I didn't care if he didn't want replies.  However, I also pointed out that I was neither a friend nor foe, so therefore, according to his little description, the "no post" didn't really apply in my case.

I proceeded to, in spite of me feeling that Wolfblade was probably in the right, assume both parties were equally at fault for this disagreement and suggest that a calm mediation of hostilities could be effected.  His response was to PM me that he blocked me.  Not just block me and leave it, but to PM me and block me.  The dude was trying to get me by getting the last word and slamming the phone down on me.

I think it's been pretty well established now that MadDog is an ass-nut.  If he's not getting some kind of kick out of all this crap he's been doing, then I don't get it, because all he's doing is heaping unneeded drama onto himself.  So, he's either some variant of a troll, or probably not that happy of a person.  Regardless, I'd feel sorry for him if this weren't all clearly his fault.

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Alrighty.  I can see that we’re talking about two different things, so let me clarify.

I can understand that you feel entirely justified in what you’re doing, and you shouldn’t have to take equal blame for this feud.  I have no issue with that.

But it’s not the whys, wheres, and hows of the feud that I’m talking about, and I’ve said that before.  What I blame you both equally for is the nature in which you both are handling it, and this is what makes a bad situation that *could* be fixable, 100x worse and unfixable.  That’s why none of your ‘verifiable proof’ matters.

You don’t need to resort to name-calling and loaded projections of character in public journals in order for you to address an issue.  Is it cathartic?  Sure.  It is reasonably justified?  Possibly.  But is it going to help or hurt?  It may help in the short-term for yourself, but it’ll hurt you and everyone else in the long run, because it compounds the problem.  It creates bad blood in an audience comprised of many who don’t even fully understand the issue, creates unnecessary life stress for you and your mutual friends, contributes to the site being an un-fun place to be, and most of all gives more reason for whoever you’re angry at to treat you like shit and feel justified doing it.  They retaliate, you retaliate, you both harbor resentment and view each other’s actions as personal attacks, and the ugly cycle continues.

I’m not saying you have to ignore it.  If you need to present your side of the situation to your watchers, do so, just refrain from the mudslinging and attacking.  I.E. “I did gift art for Weasel, found out from MadDog that Weylen’s dad was partly his character, I didn’t know, he’d like me to get permission from him before drawing him again, so I’ll do that.  I feel that MadDog could have asked more nicely, but I’ll respect his wishes.”  Yes, I do feel that MadDog was out of line when he combined his request with an attack against you, but it doesn’t mean that you have to stoop to that level as well.

I do want to emphasize that the only reason I’m saying all this is because it bothers me seeing you at each other’s throats for what I see as differences of opinion in small-potato issues in the grand scheme of things.  I wouldn’t ordinarily put myself in the line of fire in ugly conflicts like these, but I believe myself to be a good enough friend to both of you that I have faith that both of you would still honor my friendship even though you might not honor my views.

If you care to discuss this further, I would prefer to do it in PMs.  I believe the core of what I wanted to say is pretty much here, and any clarification of details is better discussed between us in private.  I just don’t have the time or emotional energy to keep adding to this super-huge thread.

RoareyRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Doesn't really work like that though, does it? We're talking about human beings here and upset/angry people do not respond calmly and level-headed in such stressful situations. Sure, it's possible, but it's extremely difficult and unnecessary to bite ones tongue when you've been wronged by someone. You don't just bottle all that hurt up inside for the sake of appearances because some people like to sit on the fence and blame both parties equally. Wolfblade was incessantly bitched at by MD in that journal in 2010 until he couldn't handle it any more and snapped. MD is even continuing this feud after two years and, honestly, he got off lightly in that 2010 journal. He WAS being a dick, he WAS being a pain in the arse and Blade was completely entitled to tell him to fuck off and get off his case.

It's not fair of you or anyone else to act like Wolfblade is just as wrong as MadDog when he didn't draw first blood and he didn't nag MD with shit that wasn't his problem. If you make someone feel as shitty as MD made Wolfblade then expect a reaction and not a kind or civil one. How do you think Wolfblade feels seeing you equate his behaviour with someone who, without provocation, repeatedly fucked with him? All he did was respond with 'fuck off, leave me alone'. No, he isn't as bad as MadDog, he's defending himself, which is what you do when someone attacks you, or you take it up the ass like a bitch and feel like crap AND let the other guy get away with it. No sir, if someone did to me what MD did to Wolfblade I'd have done worse and nobody could tell me I was wrong for it. Don't fuck with people and you wont get burned, end of story.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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When you say none of what has actually been said and done matters... I don't get that.

Let's say I was claiming that every step of this was MadDog slinging disrespect and insult, and that every step in return, I gave nothing but calm and sunshine and rainbows and quiet sad yet civil disappointment at how I somehow failed to make him happy with me, as seems to be what I am expected to have done every step of the way.

Would it matter then? Or would it still be "well, there's still a fight, so clearly you're both handling it wrong."

Yes, I have responded to him with ugliness and not sunshine. Tell me why I should give him any less than he has given me. Tell me what makes him someone who can demand respect and civility from me, but I cannot demand that from him. Tell me why I should have done anything different other than "because then this wouldn't be happening" when my responses have not been what caused this to happen. He started it, and he has been the one to restart it every time. If I gave him respect he does not deserve from me, maybe he wouldn't have continued to make this shit with me.

But why in the fuck should I give anyone respect as a response for disrespect, just so people who "don't want to be involved" will have an easier time of having their inexplicable desire to maintain an image of him being better than what he has been?

Anything >I< could have done differently would involve me taking his disrespect, and simply absorbing it without protest. You want calm reasonable response trying to get him to stop attacking me, I DID THAT. You want me to just cut contact if resolution is an impossibility, I DID THAT. What else is there for me to do besides TAKE IT LIKE A WHORE?

Anything >he< could have done differently would involve him not making that first insane disrespect OR him ceasing to try and re-open the whole stupid thing every time I HAD ended it.

But he just says "you're right" when a proposal is made for us to share the blame equally. While I ask that people acknowledge the actual reality of WHY this situation even exists, and if they want to propose solutions, they direct that at the >cause.<

Telling me the truth doesn't matter is shit. Telling ANYONE the truth doesn't matter is shit. Telling someone that it does not matter if they were attacked first without reason or provocation just because their response - whatever it may have been - did not somehow magically convince the unprovoked instigator to leave them the hell alone IS. SHIT.

Why does this take textwalls to try and get through to people?

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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My post is now too long to fit within 4000 chars. Please reply to the second half.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	When you say none of what has actually been said and done matters... I don't get that.

Fair enough. The reason I say that is because I believe whatever happened to start this feud (Let's call that Problem #1) is a different problem than why it's so bad now (Problem #2, the cycle of retaliation). All of my previous comments are related to Problem #2. Problem #2 makes problem #1 unfixable. In my opinion, you share equal blame for Problem #2. I have never weighed in on Problem #1, because I don't believe that this is the proper place to do that. I feel that it's by far a more complex issue, and requires lengthy blow-by-blow analysis that would be very difficult, not to mention inappropriate to discuss on a public forum. Already, my thoughts on Problem #2 need so much more explaining than I expected.

Wolfblade wrote:

Let's say I was claiming that every step of this was MadDog slinging disrespect and insult, and that every step in return, I gave nothing but calm and sunshine and rainbows and quiet sad yet civil disappointment at how I somehow failed to make him happy with me, as seems to be what I am expected to have done every step of the way.

Would it matter then? Or would it still be "well, there's still a fight, so clearly you're both handling it wrong."

Yes, it would matter then. Problem #1 would still exist, but now there's a chance of successfully resolving it, because there would be a lot less reason for MadDog to dismiss/disrespect/attack you.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Yes, I have responded to him with ugliness and not sunshine. Tell me why I should give him any less than he has given me.

Okay, but I'll point out that you've changed my sentiments from "refrain from ugliness" with "sunshine". Those are not the only two options. Apart from the reasons stated above, you do it because you want to be a civilized adult about it, and not lower yourself to a reactionary antagonistic level.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Tell me what makes him someone who can demand respect and civility from me, but I cannot demand that from him.

He's not, and you can.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Tell me why I should have done anything different other than "because then this wouldn't be happening" when my responses have not been what caused this to happen. He started it, and he has been the one to restart it every time.

Because your responses fuel what's happening.

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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"	Wolfblade wrote:
	If I gave him respect he does not deserve from me, maybe he wouldn't have continued to make this shit with me. But why in the fuck should I give anyone respect as a response for disrespect, just so people who "don't want to be involved" will have an easier time of having their inexplicable desire to maintain an image of him being better than what he has been?

No. Alright, here’s my philosophy about that. I realize that it’s my own, and others will have other views, and that’s fine. I didn’t always have this view, I learned it from experience. I am also imperfect at it, so don’t think that I’m lecturing you. I have lots of reasons. Other than an attempt to try to break out of that cycle that I’ve been harping on, the avoidance of unnecessary stress, and that disrespect in return doesn’t help... it’s because disrespect is a matter of perspective, so the justification for such varies from person to person. There are undoubtedly some viewing this thread who don’t like my opinions, and are likely very angry that I’m arguing with you and not willing to treat MadDog as a “nutjob asshole”. They might see that as perfectly justifiable cause to disrespect me. I believe I am not deserving of that disrespect, so is that cause for me to berate them and call them names? No, because I’m not about to make enemies over a difference of opinion, I don’t think that will help, I don’t want it to spiral out of control, and I feel everyone has the capacity to change. I’ve certainly changed over the years -- I don’t think the same way I did, two, five, twenty years ago. EVERYONE makes mistakes, and do things that they shouldn’t, willingly or unwillingly, especially when emotions are high. Most times they honestly believe they’re “doing the right thing.” And even if they know they’re in the wrong and are being malicious about it, if you let it bother you, you’ve given them what they want.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Anything >I< could have done differently would involve me taking his disrespect, and simply absorbing it without protest. You want calm reasonable response trying to get him to stop attacking me, I DID THAT. You want me to just cut contact if resolution is an impossibility, I DID THAT. What else is there for me to do besides TAKE IT LIKE A WHORE?

Don’t absorb it, deflect it. Don’t internalize it. Don’t let it bother you so much, because there are way more important things to worry about. It wouldn’t be so bad if this downward spiral didn’t make it so bad.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Anything >he< could have done differently would involve him not making that first insane disrespect OR him ceasing to try and re-open the whole stupid thing every time I *HAD* ended it.

Since he can’t turn back time, then the second is the only option, and yes, that is true.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Telling me the truth doesn't matter is shit. Telling ANYONE the truth doesn't matter is shit. Telling someone that it does not matter if they were attacked first without reason or provocation just because their response - whatever it may have been - did not somehow magically convince the unprovoked instigator to leave them the hell alone IS. SHIT.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not take offense at this paragraph because I understand you’re frustrated. I hope I’ve explained myself a little more in this post so that you might realize that’s not what I’m saying here.

"	Wolfblade wrote:
	Why does this take textwalls to try and get through to people?

I’m sorry I don’t share your views. I thought I could help by sharing them.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

It is impossible to weigh in on a situation without knowledge of the situation. I respect you, but what you say of how you see this situation does not seem to make sense unless you are seeing it as something other than what it is.

For clarity, this isn't a constant back-and-forth where both of us have done nothing but hate.

This current thing is incident #4. That's all. Spread out over I forget how many years now.

1st incident, I responded to his ugliness with trying to reason with him, asking him to back off, and ultimately blocking him when he refused to do so. Conflict over.

2nd incident, he sent a non-apology saying essentially 'I did nothing to apologize for, but I'll excuse you from apologizing to me, so let's all forget it.' If he says that's a faulty paraphrasing I can quote him more precisely. We spend that whole huge journal because I feel that so long as he has not been corrected on his initial faulty assumption that I disrespected him first, he will eventually bring it up again. He never gets is, disregards everything I say, and I ultimately say fuck it, whatever.

3rd incident, he does exactly what I was afraid he would do, and he perceives me to be doing the same thing as what he had perceived his original crap with me had been. Because he still held that belief that I had wronged him first, and now he thought I was doing the same thing, he made an enormous issue out of demanding to have that faulty parallel seen and acknowledged. Because we had gone through all that to reach a "resolution" that was never any resolution but just me dropping it all out of the hopes that it wouldn't happen again, I tried to illustrate to him the differences in the two situations. He refused to see, and so I told him this was just going to be another fight, and to please stop posting on that journal so he and I did not fall back into quarreling. He acknowledged this request, then kept posting anyway being nasty to someone else commenting. So I blocked him again.

4th incident, this incident.

He has been nothing to me but a periodic extreme agitant, antagonist, and every ounce of the excessive time I spent trying to reach any kind of peace with him has been wasted due to his repeated and persistent refusal to acknowledge anything I say to him. He takes actions of mine which do not pertain to them, and sees them as personal affronts against him.

At this point, because I am dealing with so much more fucking destructive brain-melting garbage in life right now, I see no reason for me to just absorb this OR ignore it. I tried. There's no disputing that. He keeps starting it. There's no disputing that. So yes, I did this journal.

Tell me how many times I should have repeated the proven fruitless efforts at calm response and attempted resolution of the first incidents before I'm allowed to justifiably conclude it to be a waste of my time. How much stress and upset should I allow him to visit upon me before I am allowed the human reaction of snapping back?

I have not "kept this going" aside from the fact that he has been able to convince himself that by not spending >more< wasted time on him, I have further personally wronged him. All of this has come from his one initial faulty premise. That's why the history and past events are relevant. Because if he could be brought to realize his faulty perception of that first thing, I do believe he would be able to see why he has met with the response he's gotten from me in every subsequent incident.

blackberrydragon

11 years, 9 months ago

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"	Wolfblade wrote:
	It is impossible to weigh in on a situation without knowledge of the situation. I respect you, but what you say of how you see this situation does not seem to make sense unless you are seeing it as something other than what it is.

I have knowledge of the situation. It's not like I just happened on this one journal and gave my snap judgement about it. I simply see the situation from a different perspective than you do. Unfortunately, what you view as "truth" isn't how I see it... I see it as your interpretation of MadDog's motives on the events that you've witnessed. I'm sorry if that offends you, that's not my intent. I'm not saying that my perception is totally correct and yours is totally wrong, it's just that I don't see these events the same way you do. Because of what you believe to be true, you feel my perception MUST be faulty. I disagree. Because of this difference of opinion, I'm hard pressed to imagine what else I can offer that you'd find useful and won't be terribly stressful for both of us, so I'll bow out of this thread. You know where to find me if you'd like to talk about happier things.

BeckTiger

11 years, 9 months ago

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It's guys like this that make me hate the fandom. Well, to be fair, I love being a fur, it's a huge part of my life. But people like this...just...damn. No creativity, no regard for anyone else, seems, and as soon as he can find somefin to fight, no matter how small, he makes a huge deal over it. I mean, really, starting sheiss over an ownership issue when you're using a character that's already been copyrighted years ago by a major corporation? That's just wrong.

Zarphus

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

i hate to see so much bad blood between two furs that i see as nice people. =/

Generitrans

11 years, 9 months ago

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Please forgive my ignorance of the IB commenting and block systems, but what exactly is the "loophole" that allowed MadDog to make a comment that you could see?

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Apparently, you can respond to comments on your own journals even if the person blocked you, and if you have blocked them, too.

I assume this is to prevent someone from blocking you, and then making a comment on your page that you can't respond to.

Seems foolish to facilitate continued communication in such an instance, when having the block actually function as a full block would be more likely to result in you just deleting an unwanted comment of someone who tries to speak on your page without letting you respond.

Generitrans

11 years, 9 months ago

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Ah, and it still notifies you if somebody posts a reply to a comment you made. Got it.

In that case, him using the loophole seems like a reasonable method of trying to contact you directly to let you know about the ownership of the character and ask you to refrain from drawing him again. There doesn't have to be anything malicious about that--the idea that he didn't want to drag one of your mutual friends or mutual friends-of-friends or whatever in as a go-between and play the "Tell him I said..." game seems perfectly reasonable. I wouldn't want to drag friends into this kind of drama unnecessarily either. So using the loophole, at least, I can see. That's fine.

The first part is terse, but reasonable. The part where it all goes to hell is the fourth paragraph. Reading through the lines a bit, he's trying to lay out a justification for his request that you not depict Jarvis--maybe he's normally fine with people depicting his characters and so felt the need to explain why he was making this request. But remembering the whole sorry mess while writing that justification made him too mad to realize that in explaining it he was effectively dragging the whole thing back up again. I've written a lot of things thinking I'm being all calm and cool and reasonable that I later reread and realize I was in fact practically volcanic with barely restrained rage and hatred--this seems like more of that.

That's my interpretation, anyway; take it or leave it as you will.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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The first link in my journal is to the comment where he 'just asks me to ask for permission first.'

Read it.

It's not about the tiff over the gift art, it's about him still fuming about our last exchange. He saw me doing something, and his distorted misperception of what I was doing matched his distorted misperception of what he'd done to get me to block him the first time. I spelled it out for him exactly what the differences were between the two situations here https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=42725 and he simply refuses to acknowledge anything. Just as he always has.

He was fixated on trying to make that faulty parallel, and when he ignored my request to stop posting on my page, I blocked him and once again, that was the end of this crap for me.

He used the loophole in the block system to keep poking at me, and the gift art was just the excuse he used to try and justify continuing to contact me. Both of the comments he directed at me through the block before I posted the journal are more about him just wanting to wag his finger at me in general than they are about the gift art offense.

I'm told by one of his friends that WG HAD told maddog that I didn't know it was his character both before MD contacted me and since. MD disregards it all.

Generitrans

11 years, 9 months ago

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I did read it; that's what I was talking about in my post. I think the first post was (in his mind, anyway) about the gift art. He felt the need to justify his request that you not draw Jarvis, and messed it up because he got so fixated on explaining why he doesn't like you that he didn't realize it was dragging up the past again. It's very easy to do--heck, I'm pretty sure you just did it yourself in this post. Pause for a second and consider--in response to my post analyzing MD's gift art complaint, you're outlining the original fiasco to me. But my post had nothing to do with the original debacle, and didn't refer to it in any way. I haven't even mentioned it here until now. So why are you bringing it up? Because you feel the need to justify your dismissal of my analysis by explaining how crazy he is, and in doing so you're dredging up the past.

I think that you, like MadDog, are caught up in a cycle of assuming the worst. You two are ascribing malicious motives to each other and assuming deliberate underhanded conduct at every turn. And every time something new happens between you two, your assumptions turn it into more proof of what each of you is already assuming. His block circumvention becomes an intentional attack on you. Wolfie's defense of you becomes you sending a sock puppet to post on your behalf where you cannot. And on and on and on.

Yes, it's possible that his entire intent in circumventing the block to make that first post was to be a crazy psychopath and keep poking the bear (or wolf; whatever). But frankly, I consider it far more likely that his intent was solely to ask you to not depict his characters, and he just crit-fumbled his diplomacy check. What's that quote again? Ah yes, "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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A couple people have said this, yes, that we're ascribing faulty motives to each other.

The thing is, my claim is that he has started this every time, made it a fight every time. I can point to proof of the truth of this claim. If my assumptions of his motives are wrong, okay, but the claim that he has been first to ascribe ill motive to me is one that is verifiably true.

His claim is that I have been first to disrespect him and first to ascribe ill motive to him. This is verifiably false.

Whether either of us is right or wrong in what we think of the other's motives, my claims of his ACTIONS and the order of events, are truth. His are false. My assumptions of his motives are based on those verifiably truthful claims of action, where his assumptions of my motives are based on verifiably false claims of action.

So, I do hope you will understand if I do feel my assessment of motive and intent to be more reliable than his, even though I do concede to the possibility that I am wrong. I just don't believe the evidence supports that presumption.

Generitrans

11 years, 9 months ago

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I certainly understand that you feel that way--in fact, I'd be shocked if you didn't. You know with 100% certainty what your motives are, so you can see exactly how wrong the motives MD ascribes to you are--horribly, ridiculously, ludicrously wrong. You know for an absolute fact how wrong he is in his assessment of you, in exactly what ways. And at the same time, even if you acknowledge the possibility that you might be wrong about him, you still only have a vague guess about how wrong you might be, and even then it's only a possibility. For all you know he might really be a crazy psycho, right?

So you think it might be possible you're wrong, but you know for a fact that he's wrong. Of course you feel you're more accurately judging his motives than he's judging yours.

Meanwhile, he's in exactly the same situation sitting on the other side of the fence--he knows exactly how wrong you are, in exactly what ways, but he can't possibly know how wrong he is, so he naturally believes the same as you: that he's more accurately judging your motives than you're judging his.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Absolutely right.

It's a person who "knows" the sky is blue arguing with a person who "knows" the sky is purple. I look outside, I see blue, and I cannot begin to fathom how a person can fail to comprehend that when I say the sky is blue, I am obviously simply describing a fact of observable reality. Same for him, except he looks at the sky and sees how obviously and unquestionably purple it is. I'm not the one going to him and trying to start the fight over what color the sky is, though.

There's no reconciling or resolution, there's no agreement to reach. I know he's wrong, and he "knows" I'm wrong.

I just take comfort in the fact that, except for the people saying we just shouldn't even look at the sky at all, it seems people are able to see that the sky is, in fact, blue. :P

I'm done with it. I'd ended it with him twice before, only ever opened it up after the first time because I wanted to >try< for resolution for the sake of two mutual friends we had (now just one). This only started because he found a hole in the block system. I had my venting, I had my rage, I got it out of my system, and I told him that once again, this feud is over as far as I'm concerned until such time as he starts it up again. He's >still< using the hole in the block feature to send me comments even after I said I was not going to respond to him further, so by all evidence he's ever given, he's just going to keep using that loophole and trying to pick this fight with me whenever he feels the inclination.

People talk about "just take the high road, don't sink to their level" and stuff like that. Personally, if someone's slinging mud from the ditch, I don't think there's good reason to fault a person who steps off the high road to punch the mudslinger and then get back on the road. Responding in kind to someone who is antagonizing you does not negate the merit a person earns when they are usually doing their damndest not to antagonize anybody else.

I'll ignore him until such time as I stop feeling inclined to ignore someone throwing pebbles at me from the ditch. If his timing with these petty jabs ever again happens to catch me when I've got too much bigger shit bringing me down to have any patience or tolerance or civility to spare for a random pest - as was the case this time - then I'll just do this again. I'll make people aware of the fact that yeah, remember that guy? He's still at it. Let's all laugh at him.

Does that make me an imperfect human being? Sure does. But in all my talk and ranting about people needing to >try< to be better than they usually are, I've never claimed to be perfect in that regard myself either.

Ultimately, at the end of the day, the sky's still blue. :3

DionWestford

11 years, 9 months ago

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Furries, man. Furries.

FURRYB0Y

11 years, 9 months ago

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I agree with you on this. MadDog seem like he's getting pissy cuz he wants to be pissy.

So i say T,B,I.

Trolls Best Ignored.

InfamousMustelid

11 years, 9 months ago

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I had no idea on Jarvis's rights either. Well, gladly i know now. :/

Meowz

11 years, 9 months ago

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Bahnhof.

SenGrisane

11 years, 9 months ago

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I'm just gonna offer you some virtual hugs. I don't think there needs to be said more about this.

Stumpycoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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All so pointless. Is there any possible 'win' in this feude?

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Stumpycoon

Nope.

I'm back to trying to ignore him now. Hopefully he gives up trying to restart this fight before I run out of ability to ignore his poking. :P

Stumpycoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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That sounds best. Sorry that you're going through something so annoying and pointless.

DewBunny

11 years, 9 months ago

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First. http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa196/serpentinesal... Since I know he'll delete it.

That's my contribution to this argument. Second, *hugs tight* Please don't let some fucktard living in his parents basement at thirty because he's too mentally handicapped to wipe his own ass get to you. We needs awesome artists like you around, that's all there is to this. Just ignore him as best you can and work around it until Disney tracks him down and eviscerates him. >.> Kay?

ArionEquus

11 years, 9 months ago

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Does not compute.. really... any of it. sillyness.

KodaO

11 years, 9 months ago

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I'm kinda raging at the fact that he told Wolfie that he had no reason to like you at all anymore. Is it really his place to say that? Also, people draw other peoples charas all the time, it's called fanart for a reason. Sorry people are douchebags Blade.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ KodaO

Well, to be clear, like I've said to other people, if someone draws your character and you don't want them to, you DO have the right to tell them not to do it again, and even to ask them not to post or share the one they did. You don't have to be a cunt about it when you exercise this right, and yeah, it's really shitty in these specific circumstances since the character only exists because he got permission from the guy the gift was for, so he could have made some kind of effort to keep it strictly business and just on the relevant point out of consideration for his friend.

But had he done so, just simply making me aware that the character was his and not to draw him again (and unblocking me so I could have told him I acknowledged and agreed to it the moment I confirmed it WAS his character), without the bs finger-wagging trying to start shit back up over the last ended argument, THEN, he'd have been perfectly within his rights and I'd have had nothing to object over. It would have been done deal, and we'd both have moved on. :P

SimonTesla

11 years, 9 months ago

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All this aside from the fact that you can't actually copyright a character. According to the Copyright Act "In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." Therefore, the copyright only protects the expression of that character in a work, not the idea of the character in the abstract. Which is why Disney would be more likely to use trademark law than copyright law to protect its characters.

DinHusky

11 years, 9 months ago

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I didn't hear about any of this till now, but, here's my opinion:

He needs to get his ass out of his head and actually use it to think instead of a hat rack every once and awhile. Characters are created for one (or, from what I understand in this, two) person/people. He has no right to cause any of you guys this much trouble.

MystBunny

11 years, 9 months ago

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Holy shit, what an enormous carton of rotten eggs this whole situation is, and I just ate every single one of them. hehe. I just spent hours looking through every comment, every journal, God knows why. Man, this guy was unreasonable on so many levels, and this is coming from a guy who was already slightly biased against you from the start because of the drama that popped up a month or two ago. God knows why I dug through all that, too..

Anyway, for what it's worth, you've put forth tremendous effort to make things right with him every time another issue popped up, and just when it looked like there was going to be a happy ending, he throws paws full of 100% Grade-A shit into the fan once again.

Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that even though it was a wasted effort in the end, I admire the way you handled it all. There's something to be said about the effort you put into this, despite you having no obligation, and ultimately no real gain in doing so; willing to be civil and forgiving, even though he ultimately proved undeserving of that.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

@ MystBunny

If someone coming in biased against me can still see what's what here, then that's all the more awesome to hear. XD

For the record, I do know last month's kaboom was way not conducted right. It wasn't meant to be. Normally, I construct my venting with an intent to try and use it as a vehicle to push for a constructive or beneficial awareness, blah blah. That whole shit, I was JUST bitching. I didn't even try to be constructive at all, because everything I'd bitched about, I had already brought to the admins in private and trying-to-be-constructive mode, and they'd said 'no.' So that was just me griping, and then reacting really venomously to what I felt was overwhelmingly short-sighted and closed-minded stupid that I hadn't expected coming from people.

I was disappointed when it seemed like the resulting kaboom might have influenced them to change the keywording policy (I know they were already working on the community tagging system, but the policy they'd always been adamant would never be mandatory). Had I thought for a moment that public outcry would sway their opinion when simply plain conversation hadn't, I would have voiced those concerns in a MUCH more constructive manner. :/

MystBunny

11 years, 9 months ago

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Nah, that's not the situation I was talking about, really, but that's neither here nor there. End result is, you're back, and things are resolved ^_^ or at least on their way to being resolved.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ MystBunny

Well, nothing's resolved or on the way to being so.

To me, "resolved" means problem identified and addressed. Not 'put up a fence.' The fence is there, he's still spitting at me through the hole in it, I'm just going to do my best to ignore it.

I'm just done responding to him, and will go back to just not having anything to do with him as I was before, and as I should have kept it from the start rather than trying to give him that chance. :/

MystBunny

11 years, 9 months ago

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Oh, no, not that situation, I mean the whole keywording thing. Even so, whatever you think you should have done in the MD situation, I admire you for trying to fix it for as long as you had been, even if it all ended up back where it started.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ MystBunny

Well, I don't see the keywording thing as being resolved, either.

To me, the problem over keywords was that the site told people "Don't like cub? block it, you won't see it!" Not "block stuff you don't like, and you only have to see some of it!"

This problem is part from lazy taggers. That part, community tagging addresses but was also addressed by the previous stance of "if a pic is missing a tag, politely ask the artist to add it."

The main part of this problem is the >very< small handful of people who >intentionally< omit a tag they know would let people block their stuff. Some people had even said they refuse to use the tags people would block because they >want< those people to >have< to see their stuff so they can either deal with it or gtfo.

By not making keywords mandatory, allowing these people to intentionally thwart the validity of the function that was the site's main selling point (since the sales function got taken away), choosing to NOT tell these people "participate in this fundamental function of our site, or gtfo" and instead telling the people who came here because of the promise of filters and complained that they didn't work "well, sorry, but too bad, if you can't handle it we don't really want you here," they allowed those few intentionally antagonistic people to set the tone of the site in general as being >not< what it was promised to be. It left an environment unwelcoming to people who simply wanted what they were told they could expect.

That part of the problem, would have been solved simply by making keywords mandatory, by having administrators force application of >just< at least the primary squick tags people want the filters for to begin with, and by telling people who refuse to cooperate that this site requires those labels to function as it has been advertised to function, and as such, that tiny minority of people would be better off finding a site more suited to their needs.

The community tagging feature does nothing to address this primary part of the problem because these intentionally uncooperative users have the option to opt out of it.

They chose to remain welcoming and hospitable to the tiny minority of people either intentionally disrupting the proper function of the site as it was advertised to function, for the explicit purpose of MAKING it inhospitable to a significantly larger number of potential users, or the even tinier minority of hypothetical artists who would simply object to labels being placed on their work with no intent of disruption (a group fundamentally incompatible with a site that was advertised to have a keyword and blocking feature as a primary appeal). They chose to disregard and dismiss the overwhelmingly larger number of users who only came here despite the cub stigma because they were promised a block feature, only complained about the lack of the block feature's effectiveness because that's the feature that brought them here to begin with, and ultimately left only because the main thing that got them here turned out to be, effectively, a lie.

Community tagging comes too little, too late, as any kind of solution or action to win back the people lost already, or to be a convincing argument that the initial appealing selling point of a content filter has been made relevant again, since the users who invalidated the filter to begin with can opt-out of participating in this 'solution.' It will still of course be a useful feature for the search function, thought it has already annoyed some people, and brings many new potential avenues of conflict and complaint for the administration.

The change to the keywording policy, declaring that it IS now mandatory to apply tags that are of most concern to those using the filter system, is the solution that was needed from the beginning. Too little, too late, for the users and momentum already lost, though. Also, it remains to be seen if it will be enforced better than the 'no humans' rule.

MystBunny

11 years, 9 months ago

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I think I can understand the reluctance to use administrative power in light of the problems that keep coming up on FA because of over-use and abuse of administrative power. Also, I can see someone who doesn't want to use the cub tags using the "they're not cub, they're just short" argument.

RenoWoods

11 years, 9 months ago

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I think that he has no right to use the word hypocrisy as a description for you WB, because then he would become the definition of it. He blames you for not replying in the correct manner after he basically rants your ass of, followed by blocking you so you simply can't reply.
I don't know precisely what happened but from what I've heard so far I would think he's being kind of a child.
And respect for you WB! I hope your life will get a bit easier from this point onwards.
And know that you have the support of every one of us.

Meergoose

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

I've tried reading over these comments here and there considering you might be an asshole but i just can't see it. you haven't actually done anything wrong. plus this journal has a bit more clarity as to what this is all about, from the beginning so we can at least find out what's gone down. can't say that's common.

I don't think poorly of MD though the more this goes on the harder it is not to. he's just hurting himself now with the axe-grinding. we've all been there at some point. as you said before; just need the right person to tell you you're in the wrong.
the whole character copyright thing seems like it was just something to spite you for gifting something to his friend that involves his 'property' in the slightest way possible. It could've probably been anything, just you interacting with WG in general probably pisses him right the hell off. It'd piss me off too in all honesty!

It's like having someone you don't like playing with your best friend while using your toy. only in this case, half that toy belongs to your best friend also which makes it kinda his as well and... ehh... guess you can't really lay full claim to that toy now, can you? yeah, I fucked up that analogy bad... XF

Better to talk this out 1-on-1 with no 'spectators' than to have a indirect slug fest of righteousness through public journals and expect random people to stay out of it, or something to actually get resolved as opposed to getting worse. that way nobody can claim it's a popularity contest whatever the conclusion. I just hope this bullshit doesn't cause you to take another lengthy break...

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Meergoose

Was trying to not post in this journal but I have to add onto what you say and agree.

Spectators are not needed. Blackberry touched on that subject and was whole heartily right. Everyone comes up with their own conclusions and read what they want to read and hear what they want to hear. It's second hand knowledge from one party for people to carry out their actions on how this should all be handled. Some are a little civilized most have been pretty hostile.

I'm not a popular guy and MD's boyfriend so I don't think my words will be taken for granted. But just know it's none of our battles to be fighting. This is early per-kindergarten he said she said crap on both ends.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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When the person starting the fight says "everyone stay out of this," when everyone supporting that person also says "I am staying out of this, I am choosing to remain ignorant of what has actually been done and said, and everyone else should to," what does that tell you?

He attacks me, I do everything I can to reason with him and then just shut him out when that fails. And he keeps coming back at me.

You either refuse to look at the reality of what is going on, or you are forced to see that he is the antagonist and correcting >his< behavior is the only end to this besides just telling me I have to accept whatever he feels inclined to sling my way.

I call for outside perspective when every other method available to me has failed. Fuck anyone who tells people they're not allowed to call for help or make people aware of their attacker. Fuck that.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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I look at it that neither of you are perfect, I've seen it from both sides and I still don't care.

You think you're getting somewhere getting others involved by sharing all this stress but you're not and pressuring them to get involved is just disgusting.

You're disgusting. Handle your own problems.

Back to real life, thanks for playing.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Handle my own problems? Your bf is my problem currently. Because he INSISTS on making himself such.

This is me handling it. I tried reason, I tried block, he ignored it. So here's me just putting out there for anyone to see both sides of the whole thing. Anyone can go look and see for themselves who said what and draw whatever conclusions they want to make of either of us.

I think it's pretty obvious what most people - who actually feel there's merit in educating themself on the situation before passing judgment on it - think.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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You handle it by posting a giant stress filled topic for everyone to get involved in. People who would be better off not involving themselves at all with your petty worthless feud. Manipulating them that they're not real >friends< if they don't get involved.

This isn't even about MD creating the drama, this is about you blowing it up and pressuring people to ruin their day with this horse shit. Fucking >disgusting<. You're all fucking kids.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Petty worthless feud your bf started, and keeps going. Petty worthless feud I put an end to twice, which he only took as further reason to want the feud all the more.

I blew this up because I am sick of just taking his little crap. People want to be pissed that this hasn't ended, fine, DON'T BE PISSED AT THE GUY WHO TRIED TO END IT ALREADY.

Be pissed at your boyfriend for starting it every fucking time it happens.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Fucking read.

>>>Nothing to do with the argument you two have. I don't give a shit who started it.<<<

It's all about how you drag your whole fan base into a bunch of shit they don't fully understand. You're insane to think they will solve this.

Look at yourself, you fucking got no where with this. You've only created more stress on peoples lives, you're awful. You've done it through out your whole career in the fandom that's why it always comes back. You're too fucking dense and proud (or just retarded) to realize that. Fucking furries, god damn.

RoareyRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Lol, he creates stress in other peoples lives? Nope, he was fucked with by Mad Dog over and over again and he's tried everything to get him to piss off. Any stress this journal causes to MD is deserved, because that's what you get for being a giant cunt. I've read over everything and MD is in the wrong, anybody without their nose up MD's asshole, like you, can see that.

Wolfblade is a popular guy, so he's gonna get more drama than the average furry anyway, no matter what he does. No shit he's going to talk about things that are stressing him out now and then, he keeps most of it out of the public eye. You're making out he's some sort of monster for inflicting this drama on his fanbase, like it's some form of torture. He's venting his own frustrations and happens to have a large audience. Journals are all about expressing what you want to express, so fuck off.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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You're a byproduct of all this.

Not worth my time. Thanks. =)

RoareyRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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I'm a person actually, and it doesn't change the fact that you're completely full of shit here. Your statement about Wolfblade being such a horrible person is horseshit. He hasn't asked anyone to do anything, he's vented, which he has every reason to fuckin' do. Cut the fake smile garbage as well, you aren't happy, you're pissed. You're as false as MD is.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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Keep telling yourself that buddy.

You know who else was a person?

http://www.scificool.com/images/2009/07/anakin-skywalk...

XD

RoareyRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Lol, you really are a coward if you're actually pretending to not be phased after the vitriol you just slung at Wolfblade. If you really aren't pissed off then what you've just done is pretend to be fucked off so you can have a go at somebody. That makes you a cunt. So I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve if it isn't twattiness.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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Nice talking with yah!

<3

RoareyRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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No, it wasn't, and you didn't enjoy it either. You're not achieving anything other than demonstrating that you're a liar.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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So once someone has watchers, if they tell anybody about their troubles, they're "dragging" their audience into their troubles too? If I post a picture, I am forcing that picture upon anyone who made the choice to watch me? If people stop wanting to see what I post they can unwatch me. There's no contract, nobody is bound to me. Nobody is forced to do jack shit just because I have put some words on their computer screen - which I can only do when they have chosen to be notified of the words I put out there.

REALITY:

I never disrespected MadDog until his persistent and continued disrespect of me established him as a person warranting no respect from me.

I blocked him, and it was over.

For weaselgrease and wolfie, I unblocked him to try and resolve that first issue with him. I was fine with just never having another word exchanged with him, but for them, I gave him another chance. I spent a stupid amount of time trying to explain to him his misperception that led to him disrespecting me the first time and he just refused to get it. Eventually, against my better judgment, I said fuck it and dropped it and left that door open despite the first stupid issue still being unresolved.

He brought it up again, as I knew he would, claiming to be trying to save me from making a mistake, but the "mistake" he was trying to save me from was NOT what was the mistake in his first stupid crap with me. His primary concern in the thanatos thing was clearly getting people to acknowledge the faulty parallel he'd drawn between the two incidents.

I told him to stop OR I WOULD BLOCK HIM. He said okay, and that he'd stop. And then he commented again. So I blocked him - for commenting after I told him to stop and he said okay. Not for whatever he has convinced himself I blocked him for. How much simpler could it be? "Stop posting or I block you." "Okay" - *posts again* *blocked*

THE END.

Until he circumvented the block he knew I had on him to use the gift pic excuse to start the last fight up again. I did not disregard his right to his character, I did not disrespect him for asking me to get permission first next time - how could I, I was still blocked and WASN'T going to ignore the block feature just because it has a hole in it.

I asked Weaselgrease immediately if Jarvis was MD's, because I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, WG said yes, and I said I won't draw him again now that I know - I assure you I would not have even considered drawing him even if WG had ASKED me to if I'd known it was MD's. I even told WG that so long as MD is doing his story, I won't draw any of WG's characters that are involved in it JUST IN CASE that might give MD some reason to take unreasonable issue with me yet again.

Then MD poked at me again through the block. And I simply no longer felt like just sitting there letting this fucking gnat keep trying to get in my face.

I have too much personal shit falling apart for me to have any emotional resources to divert to restraining myself from retaliating against someone who has done all in his ability to >try< and provoke some response from me. So Fuck your psycho boyfriend, and until such time as you see from him what his exes finally saw from him, fuck you too. No sarcasm, I won't hold any of this against you once you've seen him for what he really is.

For the record, despite his smarmy holier-than-I comments to others about how he feels that he and I just should avoid interaction, despite him initiating this and every previous interaction, despite me telling him yesterday that I was done and would not respond to anything further from him, and his smarmy-ass response that 'yes we're best just not talking to each other,' he is STILL commenting to me through the fucking stupid loophole in the block feature.

I'm resuming ignoring him. Until the next time one of his pokes catches me when I don't feel inclined to ignore it. Maybe by then your head will be out of his ass, and you'll be able to see something besides his bullshit.

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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Disregarding anything MD related since I don't care.

Otherwise I still see you as the stubborn drama carrying bwaaing fur you've always been.

Carry on Essayblade.

Cheers.
=)

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Again, if you feel differently when you get to know him better as his previous boyfriends did, I promise I won't hold any of this against you. In the meantime, enjoy thinking of me as you wish.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ Meergoose

Tried talking directly, you can see that in the journal there, and in my 'a few things' journal where he pushed me to block him again because I said 'hey, we made up, this is just gonna be another fight, please just stop posting here' and he goes 'okay' then kept going anyway so I blocked him again.

Then he uses a loophole in the block feature to try and keep it going.

So yeah, I know it's not the high road thing to do, but mother of fuck, I just don't care anymore. I've tried, he doesn't care, he Just Wants To Hate Me, and has given me no option but to hate him right back, so yeah, petty, vindictive, whatever, I just want to lash back at him. So, bam, public journal crap. Where, as anyone can see, everybody looking into it says 'yeah, he kinda caused this thing' and everyone trying to support him or claim equal fault are all the people saying 'nobody look at what anyone's said, just everybody don't get involved and they both need to just stop.'

sporkula

11 years, 9 months ago

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Maybe it would be approprate to point out to the mods \ admins that he is circumventing a block and harassing you?

Hipstotter

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ sporkula

They're both blocking each other. It's not even about one can't respond/apologize the other.

If they really wanted to they could but now it's all this mess.

sporkula

11 years, 9 months ago

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that wasn't what i was talking about.

if they are both blocking one another, yet MD is still harassing WB by using a loophole. in most communities that is an offence that the mods / admins will warn or ban for.

under no circumstances is it correct to continue a fight like that. all it does is cause communities to self destruct. thats why there is a mechanism to block people. it is there to prevent or mitigate a community wide war. i do understand WB's pain in this and thats why i said what i did.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ sporkula

The loophole is that he responded to a comment I made on a journal of his months ago - hilariously, ironically, tragically, whatever, it also happens to be the journal where I tried and failed to work out a resolution with him and eventually just said fuck it and let it all drop hoping that would just end his madness at me.

I made a support ticket, and the admins said that if I wanted to end his ability to continue commenting to me, I would have to delete all of my comments on his pages.

For one, I don't see the 'delete' option on those comments, I had thought you couldn't delete your comments after a set amount of time, and for two - considering his whole thing with me revolves around him lying and distorting events, I don't want the visible proof of the truth of my claims to be deleted or erased and just making it easier for him to spread his fucking lies.

But yeah, see how consistently everyone not calling MadDog out for at least being the instigator and antagonist here are all people demanding that the history behind this be ignored and disregarded.

Spuug

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Whoa! Ride that drama llama harder! Or not, I don't care. But do you feel better now, after having vented?

OddRaccoon

11 years, 9 months ago

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Lo and behold. A zero sum game on inkbunny.

Zer0

11 years, 9 months ago

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lol, I must be bored. I just traced all this back to the beginning and read through all the currently public history of this.

Sorry for making a comment and generally being a nobody. I understand if you would delete my comment or otherwise berate me for opening my big yap, and I agree that if anything I say you don't like I do deserve to be told off for butting my head where it probably doesn't belong.

I was just looking at everything and just seeing a general clash of personality that is ripe for a perpetual fight.

That being said, best thing I can say about this... Pick and choose your battles, mate. Sometimes some battles are just not worth being fought. Especially with someone you don't even like and don't even want to give the time of day.

It's not giving up, it's not ignoring someone for the sake of convenience. It's actively prohibiting oneself from acting insanely. Bashing your head against a brick wall for ten minutes a day and thinking you'll get a different result is insanity. Not the fun kind, either, as it sometimes gets your friends to join in. From the looks of it, it's not exactly doing you or them any favors, especially when there is no resolution in sight.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Call it a character flaw, I refuse to simply quietly absorb this kind of crap.

When random internet jackoff just immediately decides to lose his shit on me, I just block them. If they evade the block, I report it. That's it.

This guy was friend of a friend of my mate, so I gave him more leeway that first time to give him a chance to be reasonable. He didn't, so I blocked.

Then him and the friend of my mate were potentially going to be living locally to us here. So despite the attempted resolution still being him backflipping around the only thing I wanted acknowledged from him, I still eventually said fuck it and let it all drop because 'mutual friends' seems to mean "if you want me to like you, you have to accept whatever is slung at you from other people I like."

He did it all again, same scenario as the first, so I blocked him again. And again, that was it for me.

Now he's using a loophole to get through the block and the admins told me they can't stop him, and if I wanted to end his ability to comment to me, I'd have to delete all of my comments on his pages (the ones that show I've tried and he's just fucknuts) and yeah, I kinda don't want to do that.

So if my only remaining options are to silently absorb his garbage, or to risk looking bad myself by showing people this fucker's bullshit, I'm doing the latter. Cuz I have less and less give-a-shit for anybody who can see all this and still think I'm somehow to blame for this random nutter's mad shit at me.

Zer0

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

And we end up with an unmovable wall versus an unstoppable force.

Not saying your heart isn't in the right place. Hell, I admire your vigilance because it's not often seen where honor actually has meaning to someone.

But, just putting it out there, at one point in time you might want to consider just how far down the rabbit hole you wish to go in pursuit of your beliefs and principals before you loose sight of what really matters.

Besides, you don't need to show how full of crap this guy is. He does it all himself, and you don't need to contribute a thing, unless you enjoy beating on dead horses (no offense to any equines out there). If that's the case, I think you seriously need a hug. Or some pills. Whichever boats your float. :3

Zer0

11 years, 9 months ago

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BTW, previous comment at the end was a joke. Trying to be light-hearted. I'm pretty bad at being funny, so please don't take it the wrong way ;_;

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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No, I got it. No offense taken. XD

And I've been getting a good deal of hugs. Plenty of reaffirmation going on. The timing of this stuff was just bad. If this had happened two months ago, I likely wouldn't have reacted at all. The explosion this sparked was mainly pressure that had already been built up by other shit.

I still think he's earned every drop of venom from me, but had I not already been off the rails by so much more important crap, I'd have been able to respond like I did the previous times (which anyone can see by following the links) and reasoned with him until I got tired of bothering.

WagnerMutt

11 years, 9 months ago

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[2]
Had some time to spare and read almost everything in here.

blackberrydragon

said it all, you pretty much added to it.
But yet, wolfblade will refuse to let it go because that's the way he is, he likes things fixed, and that's the right thing to do imo.
But as you stated and I agree with you, only when it's fixeable/worth being fixed.

Not throwing my 2 cents this time for 2 reasons:
1. I partially agree with wolfblade and also don't know the MadDog guy nor the "beginning" of all the rage.
2. The problem is between them, they blocked each other and they're not just arguing, but attacking each other too, so any attempts to make one to reach the other is pointless.

All I can hope is that either both understand each other or the whole "bring the war to the public" ends.
PS: I live the hakuna matata way.

Zer0

11 years, 9 months ago

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Hey, can't blame a guy for wanting to offer perspective. Think that's what most everybody here who commented in a constructive way wanted to do. Altruism does exist, lol!

In any case, cheers!

WagnerMutt

11 years, 9 months ago

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Not blaming anyone.
I'm with wolfblade with this if you ask me.
I just don't like all this rage and violence going together with their perspectives.
Violence will bring more violence, and it'll always do.

Zer0

11 years, 9 months ago

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"	WagnerMutt wrote:
	Violence will bring more violence, and it'll always do.

Now this I disagree with. Violence can very well solve problems and even stop further violence from happening.

However, I am a firm believer that there are many solutions to our problems, violence included but is usually the absolute worst solution. Reason being is that it causes more problems at a later time more often than not. Some of the new problems that arise are often worse that the original problem.

In this particular case, violence is obviously the absolute worst solution that will create a plethora of issues that are probably worse than what is already happening. What I currently see between these two isn't violence, but a precursor to it albeit both are well-spoken enough to show that it's likely the last thing they would actually resort to. I am NOT worried about violence at all.

Besides, I think your view on violence isn't coinciding with mine. I see violence as aggressive physical action by one body against another body in a deliberate attempt to cause physical harm up to the point that the other is either dead or physically injured to any level. Words can be severely aggressive and cut deep enough to cause irrevocable mental and emotional harm, but since there is no physical altercation I don't see any violence. Currently, I see a lot of hurt feelings that can potentially get worse or better depending on the actions of the individuals.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Yeah, sometimes violence is the only solution. Usually when the antagonist simply does not WANT to cease being an antagonist. If someone WANTS a conflict, reason and peace is unattainable until their ability to cause conflict is removed entirely by whatever means necessary OR you have given them sufficient reason for THEM to WANT to not pursue conflict further.

Bullies don't stop with talking or ignoring or telling a teacher or anything else that people tell you to do when random asshole feels like just fucking with you. Ass-kickings did the job for me, every time. Nobody expects the quiet fat kid who took all your crap for most of the year and only talked or tried to reason with you or just ignored you to one day just start punching your ass. Never had a bully fuck me with again after they'd push me to that point, and never saw any of them fuck with any other kids anymore either. Sucks that we seemed to have so many new kids every year though, cuz at least one of them always felt like trying to be the big man and pick on the kids just minding their own shit. :/

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Yeah, "that's the way I am." XD I really do have a severe problem with letting go when I think something is just wrong, and I am aware of this problem. In this case, fixing the problem means making MadDog realize his first initial error. All the disrespect I show him is because I do not believe that unprovoked, unwarranted disrespect ever deserves respect in return, and he clearly seems to feel the same on that one. He disrespected me out of nowhere because at that time, he felt I had disrespected him first. I have tried, many times, to explain the error in that perception. Because every time we have clashed, it has been because he is still stuck on that first faulty perception. And yeah, I haven't let the original offense go either, obviously, but my clinging to the point isn't about a grudge, it's because correcting his perception of that original point is the only way there will ever be any hope of "fixing" this.

Everyone can see the effort I went to trying to explain that first original issue we had, and his total inability to see the same reality the rest of us are living in. I gave up, and gave him a shot anyway. He proved my misgivings right, and fucking got me to block him again. Apparently he feels it was unjustifiable of me for blocking him after saying "I will block you if you don't stop posting" and him saying "okay" and then posting again anyways. But then, he started this whole current issue by ignoring the block, and when I told him yesterday I was done and not responding to him anymore, he makes a smarmy ass response and says 'yeah, best we don't talk to each other' but then comments to me again today. XD

This time, I deleted the comment notice and ignored it. Gonna keep trying my best to just keep ignoring him.

WagnerMutt

11 years, 9 months ago

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*nods*
That's mostly why I agree with you, I don't know the guy but I can totally see you're right.
I just can't go with attacks along with the discussion, right or wrong, but that's just me.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Had this not happened when it did, I wouldn't have responded the way I did. Everyone can see for themselves that in the previous incidents, he attacked me, I held back, tried to reason with him, only got ugly at him after he's gotten ugly at me first, and eventually just blocked him.

This one would have gone the same way if not for just the timing of it being when I'm already worn down to being an exposed nerve by too much other shit.

sporkula

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

stupid crappy internet screwed up reply

*grumble ** grumble ** grumble *

shadewing

11 years, 9 months ago

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Unfortunately, I do not have enough info to make a true comment on this. Blade, can you please show me the full timeline oc events? I'd like to know more before I jump the gun.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

@ shadewing

https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=46893#commentid...

There's the cliff notes version.

RoareyRaccoon

actually went to the trouble of making a more detailed recap of the whole stupid history, - with source links, so people can see who actually said what and make their own judgments without having to take anyone's word for it - here.

Sorry for answering you with links instead of answering directly, but as you can see, I've already typed all this shit far more times than I ever should have. XD

shadewing

11 years, 9 months ago

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Thank you for the links; you're right, you have gone over this way too many times. As for my point of view, I shall put it this way: MD has proven his insanity concerning this matter, and needs to let it dropped. You have obviously stated, multiple times to multiple people, that you have declared this closed as far as you're concerned, and the other party can not accept that fact. At this point, the bastard, as he has proven himself, seems to just enjoy causing more drama. I say it's wiser to just ignore his madness as much as possible, which is something you are doing. Now, he needs to show himself as being better by just trying to stir more drama. You have my deepest sympathies for having to deal with a mad man.

MingChee

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

So I've been reading this very complicated situation and checking both sides. I admit, with all the back and forth, everything just mixes together in a huge drama fest where it becomes confusing. It begs the question on why it should have gotten to the point it has. It's madness!

Now, Wolflade, I admit I don't agree with your tactics ( It's okay, you don't have to explain), the same where I don't agree with some of MD's, but I can certainly relate to your frustrations.

This whole mess was unnecessary and frankly, I don't blame you guys for blocking each other. I don't think there's anything wrong with avoiding all contact with another individual that has a great amount of dislike towards you and every interaction is unpleasant. I just hope that things have reached a true conclusion now. I think the two of you will be much happier if you guys put this behind you and move on. I'm sure there are much more worthwhile things in your life to worry about :)

At the very least, I believe the events in our lives, however stupid and a waste of time they may be, still offer great experience and lessons. So although this has been a crappy ride, I'm sure there is some possible benefit. Sometimes it's okay to ignore things. I'm not encouraging ignorance to everything but I am in support of ignoring things or people that may not be worth your time and energy. Especially when such a thing has proven to go no where. I think that will cause you far less stress in the future.

Wolfblade

11 years, 9 months ago

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@ MingChee

Yup.

If it had just been me, that first time he lost his shit at me and got himself blocked would have been the end of it. The only reason there was ever anything beyond that was because it seemed like he and Weasel were going to be moving to my area, and I didn't want to be seen as the bad guy for making it complicated for Wolfie and Weasel to hang out. That big huge back and forth 'make-up' journal was me trying to get him to understand what the original issue was, so I could at least feel somewhat confident that it wouldn't come back to bite me again. He never got it, and I said fuck it, and let it drop for the convenience of our friends stuck in the middle. Which I never should have done.

So, yeah, I know it's best to just ignore someone when it's obvious they're a waste of time and energy. My mistake was ignoring that for someone else's benefit. The freakout here was more because of my overloaded stress levels from everything else going on in my life lately, and he just happened to be the spark that set me off. I'm back to ignoring him, again, and hopefully his next attempt to pick a fight won't catch me at such a volatile time.

MingChee

11 years, 9 months ago

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I'm sorry this whole thing has been stressful for you. I sincerely hope things turn out better for you and that MD will at least try to be respectful towards you in the future. I really do think people can disagree, dislike each-other but still be respectful/civil. However it seems clearly evident that MD is far from willing to do so. So MD doesn't like you, okay, he's established that. Yet I'm puzzled as to why he keeps trying to provoke you and seems so eager to be involved in your life. He sounds kinda obsessive lol.

WerewolfLumiere

11 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 11 years, 9 months ago by Owner

It probably would be easier to just not watch you, but it should wouldn't be as fun ;P

AlexReynard

11 years, 8 months ago

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I'm busy as hell myself, but I read some chunks of this. I don't want to comment on every little detail, but as Benny Franklin said, "Words may show a man's wit, but his actions his character." I noticed that Wolfie left a single 'fuck you, dude' comment on MadDog's journal. MadDog replied to it SIX TIMES over the course of a WEEK.

That, to me, sounds like what a crazy person would do.

Wolfblade

11 years, 8 months ago

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@ AlexReynard

Probably redundant to point out that until that one 'fuck you' comment, Wolfie had only said anything harsh to MadDog once before (when he had been trying to explain to MadDog that he was out of line, and MadDog repeatedly insisted that it could only be me using Wolfie's account), and other than that, they had been pretty good buddies. Their friendship was the only reason I didn't just leave him blocked after the first time he lost his shit at me, and the only reason I tried as hard as I did to reason with him before just blocking him.

So, when Wolfie, his friend, tries to tell him he's in the wrong with his grudge against me, he dismisses even the possibility that this could be his friend. When he is forced to acknowledge that it IS his friend telling him he's out of line, the one 'fuck you' comment is all he needs to "have no reason to like wolfie" anymore.

Of note is the fact of how most of his friends "don't get involved," how any response indicating they've looked at the entire exchange seems to agree MD is "a crazy person" while responses defending him insist that the history shouldn't be looked at by anyone, and his own repeated and vehement insistence that nobody weigh in with their opinions and assessment of the events, well, you see where I'm going with this, I'm sure. He's right as long as nobody looks at what we actually said to each other or gets involved to offer any perspective besides his and mine. Where I'm asking all these other people to look and tell me if I'm crazy, and they tell me I'm not, he's apparently better than I am in that he doesn't need anyone else's perspective on things to weigh against his own.

The unbearable poetry of this entire nonsensical mess, is that all of it started because Arcturus made a journal that was a verifiable bald-faced lie, MadDog tried to expose the lie on the journal and had his comment deleted, and that's what had him flying at me in that first incident. So when he makes his journal with the lie of 'Wolfblade doesn't respect creators' rights,' and people comment simply with links to everything that disproves every assertion he tried to make, take a WILD guess how much his passion for the truth mattered when it was his own lie being exposed. :P

AlexReynard

11 years, 8 months ago

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>When he is forced to acknowledge that it IS his friend telling him he's out of line, the one 'fuck you' comment is all he needs to "have no reason to like wolfie" anymore.

He sounds like a garbage bag full of medical waste to me. If being right is more important to you than friendships, you probably don't deserve friends. Hell, I've insisted I was right when friends have said I was wrong before, but jesus, you can do it in such a way that you let then know you still value their friendship!

>while responses defending him insist that the history shouldn't be looked at by anyone, and his own repeated and vehement insistence that nobody weigh in with their opinions and assessment of the events, well, you see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.

Reminds me of an argument I just had with a guy who told me, "We're obviously never going to agree on this, so let's just agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions." You know who says that? PEOPLE WHO ARE WRONG. Seriously, I've never heard that specific line except from people who I have just brutally corrected, and they choose not to accept facts, so they want to dismiss the entire argument. Yes, sometimes I'll agree to let something drop, but not with that weaselly 'everyone's entitled to their own opinions' BS. That seems to come mostly from people who think facts and opinions deserve equal status.

>So when he makes his journal with the lie of 'Wolfblade doesn't respect creators' rights,' and people comment simply with links to everything that disproves every assertion he tried to make, take a WILD guess how much his passion for the truth mattered when it was his own lie being exposed. :P

<wince> You know, if I did something like that and you made a journal schooling me on it, I would respect you as a friend MORE. Even if I still thought you were wrong, I'd respect you for believing that the truth is more important than our feelings about the truth.

Kepora

10 years, 4 months ago

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Edited 10 years, 4 months ago by Owner

This is...wow, major deja-vu. I decided to try something similar for Weaselgrease by writing my own new story that focuses on Weylen and my otter woman, Maria. When I posted the first two parts on October 28th, I took the time to PM him letting him know I had started a story and that I wanted his input, him being an inspiring factor. No response.

He then announces that he wishes to essentially keep the remainder of the Weylen stories to a private group; I call him out on how nonsensical his logic for that was and how much of a dick move it was, and then - wait for it - NOW he notices I did some writing! And it's kinda funny how NOW - a month and a half later - it's a problem, isn't it?

EDIT: Oh, and wouldn't you know it? Apparently I'm being 'defensive' by pointing out that his logic is flawed and, you know, breakign down his argument entirely. Seriously, how delusional can one guy get? Then he has the nerve to say "no soup for you".

Well guess what? Fuck your fucking soup; I'm having the pasta.

Wolfblade

10 years, 4 months ago

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@ Kepora

Well, there's a few differences here. Before I say anything else, I want to be clear that I'm not attacking or criticizing you, just pointing out some things that maybe you just honestly hadn't considered.

First of all, there's a difference between doing fanart of someone's characters, and doing fanart of their character involved with your own. Not everyone is okay with their characters just being used in whatever someone else happened to come up with. Written stories are a different level than just drawn fanart as well, since a story requires more time and investment in reading than just looking at a picture, and a story involves showing a character speaking and making decisions, acting AND reacting in a way that involves a lot more of their personality - which the fan author may not actually understand as well as they think they do - so people are more likely to incorporate a written story into their idea of canon for that character than just a random drawing. You may have Weylen do or say something that makes sense to your idea of the character, but might be way off from what the character's owner would actually be okay with.

A drawing is a snapshot. A story is a lot more, and that means there's a lot more that a person doing someone else's character can get wrong. Some people don't care, they're fine with people throwing their character into anything, and those people will almost ALWAYS make that known quite clearly.

Because of this, it is usually a good idea to ask for permission before you even start writing something. At the very least, you certainly ask for permission before POSTING anything. If you make a fan work involving someone else's character without making sure they are okay with that first, then you have to accept it if they tell you they're not okay with you posting work with their character in it.

Logic isn't a factor. If someone simply wishes that their character not be used by other people, that's their right. They don't have to satisfy your sense of reason or logic. They don't have to have a reason or excuse that you think is good enough. If that is their preference with their creation, then you either respect that or you don't. It's not a dick move for someone to simply prefer that others not portray their characters.

Now, the more reasonable source of your frustration is likely that you had cared about this character enough to go and put your own time and effort into writing something with him, and it's understandable you'd feel snubbed by that not being appreciated, and by him asking you not to continue. Those feelings are understandable and reasonable, HOWEVER, as I said before, you could have avoided all of that by asking permission BEFORE putting your time into it, and if he didn't respond, then a lack of a 'no' does not equate to a 'yes.' It's perfectly natural and normal to transfer that frustration onto him, BUT, you need to understand that he hasn't actually wronged you here. It was an unfortunate situation where the character's owner's wishes conflicted with something you'd already done, leaving no options but to dismiss/disregard his wishes, or see your own work go to waste. Unfortunately, the right thing for you to do there is to respect his wishes with his character, and simply learn not to do that again.

The difference between that and this journal though, is that you knew Weylen belonged to Weaselgrease, so you knew who to ask for permission, while I had no idea Weylen's dad did not belong to WG. I sent the pic I drew to Weaselgrease, and when MadDog popped up stating Jarvis was partially his, I had >zero< argument about respecting his rights to his character, and as soon as WG confirmed yes, Jarvis was partially MadDog's, there was no further question that I would not post the pic and would not draw the character again. MadDog had every right to make that request no matter how insane the rest of the bullshit between he and I was. It was everything ELSE that caused this journal.

Kepora

10 years, 4 months ago

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You made a lot of good points there, and very well-put at that. Your ability to actually sit back, analyze, and make intelligent, informed comments/decisions while looking at both sides is something I envy at times, and something I sort of even admire in you.

The difference between that and this journal though, is that you knew Weylen belonged to Weaselgrease, so you knew who to ask for permission, while I had no idea Weylen's dad did not belong to WG. I sent the pic I drew to Weaselgrease, and when MadDog popped up stating Jarvis was partially his, I had >zero< argument about respecting his rights to his character, and as soon as WG confirmed yes, Jarvis was partially MadDog's, there was no further question that I would not post the pic and would not draw the character again. MadDog had every right to make that request no matter how insane the rest of the bullshit between he and I was. It was everything ELSE that caused this journal.

And that was the problem I ran into as well - same character, even. I had shown these stories to Weasel and Klorsis, and I'd discussed the idea multiple times with Weasel prior to, during, and after the completion of the current two chapters. At no time did anyone raise any question as to any issues regarding Jarvis; heck, I even sent a PM to MadDog when I posted the stories, linking him directly to them and asking for his input. He neglected to say anything on the matter until such time as I called him out on what I still believe to be a dick move, attempting to use it as ammunition instead of, in the past 6 weeks (estimating), informing me at the item I had posted them/linked them to him.

Long story short, I was under the assumption that Jarvis belonged to Weasel as you had, seeing as he's the character's father; normally you only see those kinds of relationships between characters whom are owned by the same individual, so it's a rather easy assumption to make. And, on top of that, I only found out that the only real questionable character was Jarvis after asking Weasel about the matter/bringing it to his attention.

The portion involving Jarvis has been crossed out (so in order to be saved should MadDog somehow come to his senses and wish to talk about it like adults), and from hereon any references to him will be indirect and be as simple as 'Weylen's father' - which will make things a little trickier for me, seeing that removing that alone lost me the last two pages of chapter 2...

Also, I do appreciate that you actually see the value/difference in writing as opposed to art; in some regards it's easier, but doing it well has it's own challenges as 'traditional' art does. :3

Wolfblade

10 years, 4 months ago

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@ Kepora

If you were talking with Weasel back and forth during the writing process, and it wasn't an issue until after the fact, that is kinda different and does suck. If I were to give someone permission to do something with my characters, even if I changed my mind later and revoked that permission, it would have to be something fairly substantial for me to even try to make it a retroactive revocation.

It sounds like you're clarifying that now the issue is only about Jarvis, and not about Weasel's wishes with his own characters. I can't blame him, though. If the nonsense with my one random gift art wasn't the only instance of MadDog causing trouble over Jarvis, then you can't really blame Weaselgrease for just wanting to close the door on any more of that shit happening.

He's not the type to call MD out on anything, so there's not really anything he can do but let MD keep writing his non-canon stories until WG's ready to do his own actual canon stories with Weylen's real dad, and just leave MadDog's stuff in the realm of fanfic. Maybe whenever he's ready to do that, you can restore your stories with whatever ends up being the name of the character that's actually Weylen's dad and not just crazy roomie's fanfic character. :/

Kepora

10 years, 4 months ago

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Well, I don't think MD is his roommate; Klorsis is AFAIK. And Weasel didn't say anything until AFTER MD started jabbing at the fact I was using "his characters" (when in reality it's only one, and one he doesn't fully own =_= MD that is, not WG). Weasel was totally fine with what I was doing - heck, he really seemed to like some of the ideas I was putting forward, even some discussion/minor chat RP about possible interactions between people like Darwyn and Ichitro with the version of Harold I put forth for the stories!

I'll still be continuing the story, jsut...need to find that inspiration again. XD And feel free to have a look yourself if you get some time. :3 WG should be doing more sketches from what's been done so far/what's to come in the near future!

https://inkbunny.net/submissionview.php?id=498801
https://inkbunny.net/submissionview.php?id=499873

Wolfblade

10 years, 4 months ago

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@ Kepora

Well, he was at the time.

Your original comment seemed like you were saying WG had a problem, it makes more sense now that's been cleared up.

Kepora

10 years, 4 months ago

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