Welcome to Inkbunny...
Allowed ratings
To view member-only content, create an account. ( Hide )
Norithics

I had a moment about the cub thing.

So, this is something that I normally wouldn't talk about publically, but I figure it's worth it just to like... get my thoughts out there. Oh, uh, big trigger warning too.

There's a new effort to drive Cub Artists out of the fandom, which... I mean on some level, what else is new? The Burned Furs live eternal, only dying when people realize meaningless gatekeeping doesn't work and most people don't care, and coming back to life with each new generation of furries. This one is more Twitter-savvy, but that's about the extent of the larger difference.

However, one new popular claim they're putting forth is that Cub Porn is being used to groom children for real life abuses. This seemed absolutely ludicrous on its face. It didn't make any sense to do it that way. But then I talked to somebody who explained their own experiences with it, and it... well. It hit me hard. Really hard. I had to start asking myself a lot of questions about what I'm doing, what it means, and whether it's doing more harm than good.

Anyone who follows my art knows that cub stuff is... not even a significant portion my thing. It's a side-interest that I do just, sometimes, and it's usually variants that most other cub enthusiasts don't like. But I decided that it was okay to start drawing it because:
a) It's fictional,
b) No kids are harmed in the making of it, and
c) I wanted to present an alternative to self-deprivation, which a vast majority of the time turns into dehumanization of the targets of one's lusts
But if it was possible that even my own stuff could be used to actually abuse a real child, the idea really... really really bothered me. It still does. I mean, it makes me very upset to imagine it.

But when I stopped having bad feelings, I sat down and really thought it out. The case I'd been told about wasn't someone else's art being used for that purpose- the person in question had made it themselves, of the child in question, in the context of a relationship they had no business being in.

When I consider it, the argument being made here is that cub porn is making it easier for predators to groom children. But... if you know anything about how these assholes do that, it usually isn't porn at all, because children aren't interested in porn. It's not even sexual, grooming can be anything, like a child's favorite book or a sport, anything that lets the person get closer to them, to ingratiate them. If all cub porn disappeared tomorrow, would it make it harder for them to do that? Well... not really, for the aforementioned reason. Ultimately, cub content doesn't affect whether someone has the intent to do this- they'd have to have that behavior within them to begin with, and they'll do it regardless of the materials available to them. If you want to remove every tool a predator has to groom their victim, you'll have to ban everything children enjoy...

To say nothing of the fact that- based off of the way that all facets of this work- if you remove the release valve, the sex crimes will go up. They just do, every time, without fail. We know this, we understand this. Taking a puritanical approach is not the answer.

That said. This is not a "Not My Problem" type of deal. I really want to impress on everyone that it's important that we keep an eye out for this type of behavior. Age gaps in online relationships can be a big red flag, and it's up to each and every one of us to make sure that this isn't happening in or out of our community.

Thanks for your time while I... sort of emotionally figure this out.
Viewed: 1,341 times
Added: 5 years, 11 months ago
 
SassyAfterDark
5 years, 11 months ago
It is a pretty tough spot. I won't make any stern comments here, as I don't have the verbal stability to do so. I'm just gonna give you my support in this tough time. However much it's worth, anyways.
chacumera
5 years, 11 months ago
Thank you for that, and I do think you speak the truth about this.
kat37
5 years, 11 months ago
The thing about Child Grooming and Abuse is that honestly today we're able to see it in a much easier fashion. We're more educated about such things when the previous generation still had people who didn't know how sex worked until their wedding day and if you think that's exaggerated I will be happy to bring out large case studies. It's because of our education and recognization that we actually have less of this kind of abuse in today's world. But even with our recognition we still have well very little awareness of the methodology and will overtly ascribe it to kinks or other material which really don't apply or wouldn't actually work simply due to them being too revealing and giving away obvious intentions. Overall I'd say it is still the silent sinner who screams the Loudest. Those who really persecute are the worst offenders we've seen it throughout history how many times has a priest, judge, or senator who set up laws, accusations, and witch hunts ended up being the worst criminal of such actions. All the Fucking Time
Regifur
5 years, 11 months ago
I think your response is pretty valid and logical. Just banning ine kind of art won't do anything but divide people even more and start causing cracks in the comunity that it really shouldn't have.
Stryderfox
5 years, 11 months ago
Well said! Puritanical approach is never the right answer! I had enough of puritans anyway.
xephion
5 years, 11 months ago
what you say is true anything can be used as something horrific so thats why when i see people attacking porn of any kind as an excuse for the behavior of monster, is like blaming the tool insteaad of a person we should look more into the people to find out monster instead of attacking the tools. we need to move on from trying to kill free speech and actually attack the root of the problem ignorance we should stop shying away of talking with our kids about their day, stop making them fear things and instead let them come to you to ask you about those things stop treating them as someone who doesnt know anything and treat them as someone you want to listen someone you want to teach someone you want to guide, not forced into a better person

but alas people prefer to attack things that are easier to demonize than actually deal with the problem.
lilblue
5 years, 11 months ago
Well said.
XaveKNyne
5 years, 11 months ago
Solid points here Nori.
chacumera
5 years, 11 months ago
And also, if these people actually gave a slight curiosity about this matter in the first place, they would actually look at documented behavior patterns of actual molesters.  The fact is these people are a bunch of liars who are using gullible people to push them to whatever they want.
moyomongoose
5 years, 11 months ago
Hence there those out there who's brains operate purely on emotion without the slightest hint of common sense, knowledge or reasoning.
Magnamorous
5 years, 11 months ago
Yeah, I think the best thing to do to keep the stigma from getting is to continue to call out the sickos going after kids, to make it clear that our self-expression isn't an endorsement of the real act, and that that kind of thing isn't tolerated.
People are going to get their panties in a bunch over lolis regardless, but we should still weed out the abusers.
Stryderfox
5 years, 11 months ago
Pretty much this!
Milkie
5 years, 11 months ago
Like a character in Harbington Heroes says in my latest (currently being worked on) chapter, "Condemn them in the strongest possible terms, leave no room for doubt on where we stand."
Delquea
5 years, 11 months ago
Society in a nutshell (mostly western society but still)

People focus on the means and the action, but not the reaction. As long as they ignore the end reaction, they're only following a pipe dream and nothing more.
dmflat
5 years, 11 months ago
Sound like a 'blame the weapon maker' thing.
moyomongoose
5 years, 11 months ago
Sounds like it 'cuz it is.
XZeddX
5 years, 11 months ago
I just hope it won't stop you with what you create my good man
Milkie
5 years, 11 months ago
I haven't even noticed that this new push was happening. As you say, though, it's not terribly surprising.
ElfenSciuridae
5 years, 11 months ago
Saying that cub porn will promote child predators to go after their targets is like saying that child-dolls can be used curb a predator's appetite. ( http://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/child-like-sex-dolls-d... ) That's utter BS.

Art is art, and like everything else art has its dark side. Nothing is going to curb that. It will just go underground like everything else. It’s like that saying, "When you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them." This is true on so many levels. Why else does humanity have dark circles and societies? The internet only makes it easier to get to them, with the dark web getting deeper and darker with each subject that is added to outlaw list.

Long ago (mid 1990s) I remember a Yahoo Group that was called "Girls Who Walk With Their Shirts Tucked In!" and they shared photos of girls (older teens to adults) wearing pants or skirts but with their blouse-shirts tucked into the hem of said pants or skirt! That was it! And another group that had "Girls Who Wear Sandals With No Sox!" which showed bare toes of girls (older teens to adults) sticking out of leather sandals! How pornographic is that?

Apparently, the Tabliban and Al Quida sent letters to Yahoo about how this degrades the female figure which in their eyes should be covered up from head to toe in a burka! They sent so many letters and emails, many misrepresenting themselves as community leaders of towns and small cities, that Yahoo took down the groups less than a year later!

In my belief, if you do not like something, then walk away from it. That is all! Walk away. But no. People want what they think is right and pass stupid laws to try to curb others into their way of thinking and living. To them I say FUCK YOU!

I agree with you Nori. I really do.
MickJagger
5 years, 11 months ago
I enjoyed the description of the emotional and rational considerations. You should write a book.
LoZeed
5 years, 11 months ago
There's a certain air of hypocrisy to this whole thing, the same people do much of nothing against the multitude of rapists, criminals and even some nazis and yet the cub artists seem to be the easiest targets. It's art, but people don't see it that way.    
EtherSaga
5 years, 11 months ago
I agree. Though people only tend to see in one dimension, so convincing someone who already has those thoughts that it's really a bad thing, is... tough.
DevilishGenesis
5 years, 11 months ago
Sadly, some people just want to feel like they're making a difference, but they don't take the time to address the actual problem. End of the day, they'd rather pat themselves on the back by punishing groups they don't like, because it's faster, easier, and they get attention for it.
FlameFox1987
5 years, 11 months ago
I actually appreciate that you are a person of common sense and logic. I've seen so many people give in to this "cub porn makes you a child molester" bullshit as if this was the "video games make you murderers" era of naivety. So to see you actually think through this and speak your part against all the blind emotion is a big breath of fresh air to me. One of your posts on this matter actually inspired me to make my English paper regarding the matter. It actually resonated well with my students and especially my teacher. So I thank you, not only for your inspiration but also for you putting up a stance in all this. Thank you.
FoxBoyKeito
5 years, 11 months ago
It's not just cub porn. It's anything "made for children". Case in point, there was a post on Facebook that showed a bunch of sfw adult versions of "everybody's" favorite Disney princesses. And there was a moron who commentef claiming that the artists and anyone who liked the pinups was a pedophile, and that all cartoons were supposed to be for kids, and any "adult" cartoons were made to groom kids. I understand that people want pedos in all shapes and sizes done off with in one way or another, but these people's arrogance is getting out of hand. Can you spell grasping?
FlameFox1987
5 years, 11 months ago
That's why my school paper involved debunking this bullshit. So many morons want legal action on this when there is no actual evidence or link relating cub porn to pedophilia or shit like that. Grasping doesn't even qualify. They are grasping at NOTHING and using that nothing as evidence to justify doing some sort of legal action when really, these morons are just fearmongers who let their emotions rule over their rational thinking.  

Like, I don't like gore but that doesn't mean I get to say stupid shit like "playing Mortal Kombat turns you into a psychopath." But the lengths they go to to justify their stupidity is astounding.

"This pedo used cub porn to groom a kid. So we should ban all cub porn."
Well, some murderers use forks to attack their victims even though most of them use guns. Does that mean we should ban all forks? This is asinine already.
FoxBoyKeito
5 years, 11 months ago
Can I please read this paper? You sound like someone I'd love to ssit and talk hours on end with about the stupidity that is humanity and emotional thinking. And yes, they are reaching HARD. All for naught too, as every single one of these claims has NO validity whatsoever, and to further shut them down, actual research has been done proving that while there is a correlation between many of the factors, there is NO link that binds them. Except in the case of violent video game, where the link found was somewhat contrary to what many thought, that angrier/more violent people tend to play more violent games. This was based on personalities btw. So, it's not exactly concrete, but puts a lot more than peopel thin in perspective.
QueenSaryala
5 years, 11 months ago
I entirely agree on your A, B, And C points you described.

in all honesty, cub porn is a really touchy subject for just about anyone when talking about the ethics of it. But you can really lump it into alot of the same subjects about different fetishes. especially those that would otherwise cause problems if actually acted on in the real world.

things like rape porn, and fetishes that involve lots of very exagerated situations. especially when it comes to antics in public scenarios or social aspects considering all the different scenarios that one can just make a pornogographic image or story.

with my own reasoning, I agree. no one real is involved except myself and creating a fictional character.

but I also add the fact that I generally don't like realistically depicted cub characters. specifically with how I prefer any chance I can take to make the scenario as unrealistic as possible. and usually having the character in question being overly developed as the default must have.

The final point though, is that my honest reason for why I actually got into liking cub stuff in the first place. is the fact that I was about 7 or 8 years old when I first discovered porn. and with a heavy focus on boobs. So carrying over that experience of me, as a kid, enjoying big boob related porn stuff. translated into me just having a thing for younger characters in fiction with oversized assets.

I can comfortably say that I have absolutely NO desire for real life children, even with what I've done over the years with fictional characters in my art and role playing.

It's just like how video games are often a blame for insighting violence in someone.

it has nothing to do with the subject causing someone to want to commit horrible acts. it's the fact that they wanted to commit them in the first place. and as a result, just so happen to also enjoy the fictional version of it to.

like for example, Someone who wants to commit murder, will probably like playing games that involve being able to kill a lot. and then will go actually do it in real life if they decide they want to. the game didn't make them do it. they just enjoyed it in the first place and chose to do it.

I feel the same way about cub porn. It doesn't cause or train anyone to do it in real life with actual children. But people who DO go out of their way to commit that crime, will be interested in it for that reason.

correlation does not mean causation
Wakka
5 years, 11 months ago
That's a strong message. Cub porn as with all porn art for me is not real. Fantasy and nothing more.  Everyone's view on this type of art is different but as for removing all cub art that simply wont happen and its not something anyone can really stop. Anyone with a bit of art skill or a good art program can make cub art.

So for me i just don't pay art of any kind any mind.  Ban something and people will just find or make cub art.  Cub art to me is also neither good or bad as it can play both sides.

Well lest that's my views on cub art. OwO
Delicious
5 years, 11 months ago
Most of my acceptance of this subject has been the statistics argument, but, frankly, my interests have shifted, and now I find myself often weighing the pros and cons of what I'm doing here lately.  I'm kind of in the same position as you are here, and I'm not really sure what direction I want to take next.  I've already dealt with extreme reactions of all sorts from people for my content, and it just feels a little awkward and silly when it's really...not my favorite, or what I want to draw in great volume in the long term.  Baby steps, I guess.
Norithics
5 years, 11 months ago
Yeah. It's complicated, right? Like, on the one hand it feels like "I could make my life so much easier by just not doing this one thing." But then it's also... like, that's not free. It isn't nothing to cut out something you like. To be restrained like that.
Delicious
5 years, 11 months ago
One easy step to not needing to give a fuck anymore!  But yes, the constraints are a little upsetting--that, and the idea of alienating people who have been following me for all this time.  I always swore that I'd never pull out of what I do, and stand by the idea of "it's not real, so it's no big deal," but the real-world consequences of drawing cub or other objectionable content really stand out as you look at it longer, especially in the case of wanting to do more professional works.  Something I really wish I had these days is a portfolio, but it's hard just to break out of the theme in a motivational sense at this point.
Jaykee90
5 years, 11 months ago
>Children arent interested in porn

not true m8, me and all my friends hat access to all of the web since we were 5 and we looked Up all we wanted - also lots of porn.
Norithics
5 years, 11 months ago
Yeah, I mean, basically me too, but that's not typical.
Jaykee90
5 years, 11 months ago
It is here in germany 😂😂😂 But besides my 'criticism', I totally am behind you about dat topic.
Ein
Ein
5 years, 11 months ago
I like pushing boundries and taboos, and I think it's a bit much to place the blame of child grooming on the shoulders of cub/loli/shota/whatever, especially when cosplay exists. That said, I am SUPER anti-sex exposure to children. From my own personal experience, there is no positive exposure to graphic pornography/actual sex. It messes you up for life.

But still I enjoy the art so long as it stays well away from "realistic" and it's between consent adults. And between consenting adults only.
Blackraven2
5 years, 11 months ago
Yeah, if you condemned furry art for being suitable for grooming, then anyone - from Walt Disney to your favorite manufacturer of lollipops would also burn in hell.
It's of course important to look at the primary use case. Gun manufacturers regularly also claim 'guns don't kill people, people do' - the main difference to this moraly questionable excuse is, what is the primary purpose of said item.
Guns are made to kill, even if it still needs someone to pull the trigger, that's the entire design intention.
Furry porn is not made to be used as grooming material. It can of course be misused as such, just like any other item that caters to someone's interest with the flair of the forbidden or naughty. But its the intent of the maker and the primary usecase that counts.
Otherwise u'd have to ban hammers, for u could smash someones head im, and pens, for you could ram them into someones eyes.


HeroicOnes
5 years, 11 months ago
Accusations like these have risen up on Twitter alot more frequently since the last debacle with good 'ol Mr. Wan.
And most of the ones I have seen use them to stirr drama and get more followers/retweets on their stuff... they hold little water when it comes to actual facts.

While it is good that you worry about it - it means you care! - I personally think these claims are utter ridicolusness. Rubberized cartoon kids with asses the size of beanbag chairs are now predators secret sauce to get the kiddies to send him nudes? What's next, the factory that makes extention cords is secretly responsible for suicides by hanging?

It's always a bit amusing to me when, furrys especially, come up with reasons to out one of their sub-fetishes. Saying people who are into cub porn are pedophiles is the same as the rest of the internet accusing us of fucking dogs.

Either it is okay to draw porn of fictional characters, or it's not. Everything else is a double-standart.
strawkitty
5 years, 11 months ago
A lot of people are making a fallacy with equating fantasy to acceptance of criminal activity, this case really is no different. Certainly alertness about this topic should be had and that does whole lot more good than banning and trying to erase artists that draw such fictional things.

Not only alertness from people in this community but from those actually responsible for them so that kids aren't exposed to such harm in the first place. I don't know what is being taught in homes and schools nowdays but it was hammered pretty hard in my head that as long as I'm a kid: 1. I should not to expose my real identity online to pretty much anyone 2. Not accept contacts from unknown individuals. By following those guidelines my parents trusted me to peruse internet mostly without supervision. Real life friends from school etc were of course exceptions but even then we all preferred to use nicknames online.

Discouraging criminals from acting and stopping them is what should be aimed at but banning particular types of drawings would do nothing towards that. Only thing that would achieve is make few people maybe feel good about themselves by moving topics they do not like out of their sight... which they could much more easily use keyword blacklisting for.
Geemo
5 years, 11 months ago
I continue to have a lot of respect and admiration for you Nori.  I appreciate your thoughts and approach to this sensitive topic.
Daneasaur
5 years, 11 months ago
Everyone wants a scapegoat for their own failings.

A child is preyed upon when they don't know and/or don't understand what they are doing. A predator will attempt to blend in, will attempt to be friendly. They don't wear a cape and twirl a moustache.

9 times out of 10, I've see than the heads of these "witch hunts" are guilty of that which they are trying to condemn. It's all to shift the attention from the actual victims. It's easy to wave an arted comic and go "child sex!" and get attention and rally the internet media mob to go after that and not the actual kids you're diddling.

I've been exposed to sexual content all through my growing up years, but I had PARENTS who cared about my development. PARENTS who instilled the virtue of right and wrong. PARENTS who ensured I knew the difference between fantasy and reality.

It's like blaming video games for school shootings.
shadycat
5 years, 11 months ago
I don't think I have much useful to say about this, but "Burned Furs" takes me back. Anyone requiring a refresh need only look at rhjunior.com and related journals to see what a shitshow those people were.  
Axleonder
5 years, 9 months ago
I just tried looking at that site, but I'm having difficulty navigating to the relevant reading material. (His Livejournal for example doesn't appear to have a localized word search function, just the calendar.)

He does project a tradcon frame of reference in all his general writings though.
PonderousPlatypus
5 years, 11 months ago
There's an interesting argument to be had here, certainly. While we know about the damage done by excessively demonizing this subject, forcing people to avoid getting help when faced with such urges and the complete lack of sympathy for those who have a defect that they did not choose, there is still the question of whether or not too much exposure can have a negative effect.

Just as we don't want to excessively condemn people for things out of their control, I've wondered if going too positively in regards to these kind of fetishes can also be harmful. While it is clearly a fantasy, and it is often changed to have the 'victim' be the one in a position of power or treated with a very positive sort of viewpoint, can't that also be a little scummy? For impressionable people, people who are just starting to grapple with these ideas, the idea that 'a lot of kids secretly like this if you do it right' might be dangerous.

This is something I've grown a lot less comfortable with lately. A lot of what used to titillate me, and still does I'm not some bastion of perfect willpower, now just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not necessarily because I DO think that it is tearing at the fabric of society, but... that little bit of reality bleeding through into the fantasy ruins it.
Norithics
5 years, 11 months ago
" PonderousPlatypus wrote:
For impressionable people, people who are just starting to grapple with these ideas, the idea that 'a lot of kids secretly like this if you do it right' might be dangerous.


And then I have to ask a lot of questions on the tail of that.
Is it my responsibility to teach people ethics in sexual power dynamics?
Is it my fault if they mistake what I do for reality and do something regrettable?
What is ethical pornography? What is ethical entertainment??
Is it even possible to exist in a way that doesn't compromise yourself???
God damn it, none of this is easy and I hate it.
PonderousPlatypus
5 years, 11 months ago
" Norithics wrote:
God damn it, none of this is easy and I hate it.


Adulting sucks.
Exelbirth
5 years, 11 months ago
" Norithics wrote:
Is it my responsibility to teach people ethics in sexual power dynamics?
Is it my fault if they mistake what I do for reality and do something regrettable?
What is ethical pornography? What is ethical entertainment??
Is it even possible to exist in a way that doesn't compromise yourself???
God damn it, none of this is easy and I hate it.


Questions that have no real easy answer indeed.  I believe it may be boiled down to a broader question: Is an artist responsible for if someone they don't know is inspired by their works to do something heinous?  Asking it that way makes it seem somewhat ridiculous to assert that an artist has to shoulder the responsibility of the actions of complete strangers that quite possibly could have been inspired by something other than someone's art to do something heinous.

What if that person saw a cloud that looked like a knife and took it as some type of divine sign that they had to liberate people's souls by stabbing them to death?  Would we blame the weather and try banning it?  Or would we blame the religion that guy was part of and forbid the practice of that religion?

As far as I'm concerned, blaming things for "inspiring" people to do heinous acts is a deflection from a much more ingrained problem that stems from society itself.
SkyeEldrich
5 years, 11 months ago
As far as I'm concerned: if no child is getting hurt and if it doesn't PROMOTE the hurting of any real children?  Anyone who doesn't like it can go fuck themselves.  Where's the real child with cub porn?  

I have a crazy stalker who constantly accuses me of being a pederast, of hurting real kids at my job (never mind that they're HIGH SCHOOLERS and WAYYYYYY outside of what I write about)....  but the other thing is... I've never once had the inclination to do anything in real life because I find real kids repulsive, obnoxious little monsters.  They're too disgusting and annoying to arouse me.

...Also, and most importantly for why I'll never touch a kid: they're not furry cartoons.  

So... yeah.  Strike one for the child grooming argument right here.  I want the fantasy, not the real thing, because ew.  And I imagine the same goes for most cub fans.
Kalibran
5 years, 11 months ago
I try not to let works of fiction dictate my policy for real life. That's why I don't watch the news anymore.
PaperMercenary
5 years, 11 months ago
Cub content causes pedophilic actions just as much as violent video games cause real world violence- in essence, it doesn't. Those that do violence would have done violence with or without violent video games.  Those that abuse children will do it with or without cub content.  More often than not, violent video games help suppress and control violent outbursts in the real world just like cub content helps keep those that have yet to attack real kids from doing so.  It is those that can't separate fantasy from reality that use content of any form to do what they fantasize about.

I am a violent, psychopathic individual with a taste for lolis... in fantasy.

In reality, I'm the most laid back, passive person on the planet who is happily married to the most wonderful woman in the world and a proud father of an adorable two year old.
moyomongoose
5 years, 11 months ago
A world where cubs haven't been born, and nothing has reproduced it's own kind, for many millennia.
A dead world;
World of the Barren Womb by moyomongoose
+8
  
World of the Barren Womb [Page 2] by moyomongoose
+8

World of the Barren Womb [Page 3] by moyomongoose
+8



On the flipside...A world where cubs are born, grow up, then produce the next generation of cubs.
A world with life;
Axleonder
5 years, 9 months ago
You are aware that the general "just want to be left alone with my games" gamer demographic looks at this niche as a bunch of faggots who need to burn, right?
Norithics
5 years, 9 months ago
Don't be a fuckface in my comments. First and only warning.
Axleonder
5 years, 9 months ago
Check your PMs.
KimbaLion
5 years, 11 months ago
welcome to the crazy world =^^=
Skythewolf
5 years, 11 months ago
in a nutsheell digibro said it best, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX1dZjs he may be talking about anime but it can apply to everything in this famdom as well
MaximilianUltimata
5 years, 11 months ago
Read it at least five times last night trying to identify the trigger warning.

All this does is contribute to the victim blaming culture by trying to blame people other than the one who committed the act. It also forwards the narrative that men (as men are usually the ones to commit sexual assault) are unable to control themselves, and their reasoning for this broad strokes censorship contributes to the idea that fiction is to blame for all of our societal woes. It's desperately trying to place the blame on something else other than the person who actually committed the act, and ultimately all this does is make the problem worse. All to preserve people's plasticine sensibilities.
Talbotlynx
5 years, 11 months ago
Well put. This is an argument and thought I came to after being involved with a group that hunted online predators many years ago. Hell, I still occasionally find a problem person simply by being involved in the community of cub/loli/shota art and act accordingly when they turn up. I can only do so because I am interacting with the 'harmless' ones regularly and know what I'm looking for in at least some of my interactions. It's hilarious when I do find a troublemaker (and I'm aware I'm using soft language here) simply because I don't hide my history.

Take your time figuring out how you feel about this. It is something that effects everyone that comes fully to this point differently. It's a bit of a red pill sort of moment for many. Some of us come to it from your angle, and some of us come to it from a much darker angle. I know there'll be no hard feelings from me no matter where you land when you settle. I'll still watch you regardless, because it wasn't the cub stuff that drew me to your art. Need to play Overwatch again with you too some day. Been a long, long time.  Glad this journal entry didn't sneak by me. ;3
Xadera
5 years, 11 months ago
I've gotten the sense some big thing is going on that I missed, and it's rattling a lot of people that do "cub" or "loli" stuff. It's... all so dumb.

Art, in all forms, is an attempt to solidify and/or share an idea in one's brain. We don't know a lot about the world so we're going to spend a lot of time refine the same ideas over and over just trying to figure out "why" as we, as an existence, continue to evolve. We also can't share brain states with each other, so we can never fully translate the whole of an idea to each other.

Art is used to help fill in the gaps. To think and to explore. What the art actually is, what the story actually is, it's all masked by what you see and read. Even non-sexual fiction (even non-fiction) might "truly" be about something entirely different that what you see. Robots fighting in the future isn't just a story exploring the concept of technology in war, it could actually be about an aspect of love that is better conveyed from the perspective of robots.

So, cub/loli porn (fictional), is not necessarily actually about real children or about trying to manipulate children. For some it could be an exploration of an idea from the innocent perspective of a child. For others it could be about the weakness of being a child in an adult world that reflects the creator's own sense of weakness in sex. For others it could just be a shared experience more people can relate with (everybody was a child once) and thus they can convey their idea better. And, yes, for some it can be an outlet for pent up desires, some can use it as a means to manipulate children, etc. Each group is not the explanation of the whole. Some furries are into anthropomorphized animals because animals have, culturally, had distinct traits people can easily use to build out characters as a shortcut. Some furries are into anthropomorphized animals because they want to fuck animals. These two groups are not the same, and there's hundreds more groups. Movies with violence can be exploring other topics, while some could be created because a psychopath actually wants to kill.

The problem is, culturally, people don't want to consider every possible group. I know people don't like this, but the human-process is the same for these as well, just on much larger scales: racism and sexism and religionism (I forgot the term), all those isms are just other examples where people will select the group they worry about the most and attribute it to the whole so they can write off the whole. It's much easier to view the world as 10 groups of people vs 7 billion separate people. Child abuse is one of the greater "disgusting acts" in the world, so anything that might harbor such an individual will easily be clumped with it and quickly written off as "evil" and anybody that tries to defend against that gets dumped on as though they were the ones performing the actual acts. Look at how long it took race and sex to be more acceptable in the world, and this case isn't exactly popular enough for people to see the difference.

Yet, I think that's partially why people do this. Something won't grow in support if everybody's afraid to do it. And people won't be able to understand the difference between fiction and reality if they don't explore the idea. Heck, people might not even know why abusing a child is bad, if they don't mentally explore the reasoning. I'm pretty sure most people that follow religions don't realize that many of the scriptures weren't about "divine will", but were rather about "if you did this 2000 years ago, it would likely get you killed by something we don't understand yet" like disease and famine.

My post may be a bit big, so I want to wrap it up with this: think about why you really explore the concepts of cub. Are you intentionally trying to manipulate kids, or are you trying to enlighten yourself? Are they just a vessel for another idea, or do you think there's something particular with them that you try to explore?
Kittymew
5 years, 11 months ago
My take on cub porn and lolicon is pretty much in line with the rest of the psych community at this point: it's relatively unrelated to actual pedophilia and often takes on its own nature. The "kids" in these artworks don't act, move, pose, talk, or otherwise behave like real children.

Meanwhile the pedophiles in the furry community are using the cub artists as scapegoats while they continue to fuck 12 year old boys discovering their sexuality and create/collect REAL child porn. Those are the guys we need to get after.
Norithics
5 years, 11 months ago
Really! I didn't know the Psych community had weighed in on this. Are there any resources I could look at?
OliverJarvis
5 years, 11 months ago
it bothers me very badly, so I stay away from it. that said, im never gonna tell someone not to draw something.
pyrostinger
5 years, 11 months ago
Cub stuff makes me pretty uncomfortable. And yet, here I am. I don't exactly buy that cub stuff leads to abusing actual children because of the gap between what is being presented and what actually happens with kids, but the more, uh, 'realistic' the depiction of children, the way more it skeeves me out.
chimangetsu
5 years, 11 months ago
As a commissioner and writer, the appeal has generally been in the size difference aspect. You see that with a lot of my partner pairings: lots of busty characters with small breasted or even flat partners. It's a fairly common aesthetic and cub/loli is sort of a shortcut for those types of situations, with the added aspect of taboo (which is probably why incest is so popular). It can also be a fun kink dynamic to express through art as anyone who has been in a DD/lg relationship can attest to, myself included.
LingoBingo
5 years, 11 months ago
Any artist that is for the Censorship of other art that makes them uncomfortable isn't even worth the time of day Imo. The claim that people are using cub porn to groom children is just some hearsay on twitter to get the emotional people on their side, There is no evidence of this happening on any sort of actual scale that you could measure, so it's just a claim, probably made by people who hate the porn to begin with and have no actual argument about why it's bad.

That said, even if it did happen, and even happened more than once, It wouldn't even be the fault of the porn, it's the fault of the person taking the porn and somehow wizarding it into some scheme. Guess what they also use candy to lure kids, lets ban Candy, they use vans to get away, lets ban Vans.

It's entirely silly to blame some fictional art form for your problems, and even sillier to blame the artists making them as fantasy pieces. If any of the people saber rattling against cub or loli or shota artists, are artists themselves, they should be ashamed.
billmurray
5 years, 11 months ago
tolerance is a two way street... I overheard this, but I'm not sure what it means!  I'm just a cat  =w=

Speaking of analogies, try not to get swept away in the zeitgeist if you're the type of person who tends to wade into it  @w@

As for me, I'll just keep making cat doodles~
LoneWolf
5 years, 9 months ago
What the people making this argument don't want you to know is that this kind of grooming (yes, using porn to groom actually does happen,) could be and is easily done with widely available, perfectly legal, no-seriously-it-is-a-single-click-away, fully adult porn.

I appreciate what they are trying to do, but it is a fundamentally stupid argument and only displays the ignorance of the arguer. These people are the PETA of child advocacy.
New Comment:
Move reply box to top
Log in or create an account to comment.