Patreon, Yiff Party and my advice by bbmbbf < Journal | Inkbunny, the Furry Art Community

7 years, 1 month ago

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I sent you guys money on Patreon, for Krezzy.... even though he's refusing to talk with me for reasons he thinks exists, that don't.... but I actually warned you guys, about all this too. ;P Patreon has it's issues. ;P

DeviousMarshal

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ CrystalMendrilia

to an extent it's inevitable with any site with paid content, someone somewhere will find a way to get it for free. :P

CrystalMendrilia

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ DeviousMarshal

Very true. But hey, that's part of doing business on the internet. Had a guy at work want to make it so the security cameras can be accessed by his phone. But he also wants the cameras to be unhackable.... We were all, "Uhh.... ?"
Patreon also crams down on certain adult themes.

JinxMcKenzie

7 years, 1 month ago

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Ridiculous!

DeviousMarshal

7 years, 1 month ago

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The moment people don't need to pay for anything, they'll take it in a heartbeat, ethical or not. Its just a dick move plain and simple.
I can't even imagine some of these people being upset when it turns out they drive all their fave artists out of business by distributing paid content for free everywhere, thats just the sort of people you'll be dealing with there.
(insert much longer rant about some peoples atitude towards art and artists)

rick2tails

7 years, 1 month ago

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that ass munch running that site needs to be punched in the face many times. when asked if that would hurt him the artists said "we`re not sure. we hope it does"

CFC

7 years, 1 month ago

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i actully thinks he dose nothing wrong but i think he shulld atleast have it so it can only be available a month after its release on Patreon for those paywall artists but i do see it also from a artists view but i think he dose nothing wrong to be honest just helps those who cant afford a chance to look art artists stuff and not haveing to worry about thire money for food and bills needed to be touched

Delquea

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ CFC

My feelings is mixed since I don't think people should have their money taken away BUT then there are people who HEAVILY abuse patreon to the point of treating it as an exclusive paywall when that not how it works. And I'm pretty sure people who use that site only target those people.

CFC

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ Delquea

well those are the ppl i mean Exclusive for most users releses thire work here after a while and thats thumbs up but the exlucive paywall is the once thos i think this site are good for

WAtheAnum

7 years, 1 month ago

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i will not say that is good what they are doing, what i say that this is just a hot drop of water on a cold stone. it gives WAY to many illegal sides where you can look at stuff from patreon or paywall content. Trust me, i saw some of them fall but rise again somewhere else. its really hard to "fight" against those. as long as someone creates a paywall as long as someone will pirate it...

Mylen

7 years, 1 month ago

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I still don't get why people still treat artists, especially fandom artists, like absolute dirt. I once heard of someone who claimed they didn't have to credit the artist when posting their commission because they already paid for it, hence "the artist should have to pay ME to advertise for them!!!!".

I like free stuff as much as the next person, but Yiff Party is advanced, straight up art theft. Tons and tons of hard work just gone.

Delquea

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ Mylen

Well there still the problem of people who heavily use Patreon as an exclusive paywall when patreon was never meant to be used that way. I even recall a sonic fanartist here on IB literally deleting their entire gallery then reuploading everything censored and putting everything on Patreon (Basically they were trying to get money for something over a thousand people already had, reuploaded to the internet and shared around.

It was the very first instance where I realized people are heavily taking Patreon for granted and being overly greedy.

NOW for the people who are honest with their effort, THAT where I have a critical issue with yiffparty.

Mylen

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ Delquea

Oh yeah, the whole greedy paywall thing is the opposite side of the spectrum of extreme shit people do in the community. There always needs to be a middle ground area where the artist and the patrons are both happy with one not being too entitled over the other.

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ Delquea

Aside from whether paywalls are a good thing, I don't think "it was meant for that" is a good benchmark. Inkbunny was originally meant to be a place to sell prints and digital downloads.

In practice that plan fell apart after six months of operation due to payment processor issues (the same that hit FA and SF). Patreon and (some of) its users may simply have adjusted its model to pivot to a more profitable one, in order to survive.

Delquea

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

You can only survive off of art for so long, and patreon at the moment is the most flawed means imo. Thankfully more alternatives are popping up here and there with less asinine rules and such.

Delquea

7 years, 1 month ago

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Unfortunately that won't matter, someone could actually willingly pay for it all then share it around for free. There is literally no way to fight pirates cos even when they "play fair" they still "cheat" the system.

It happened to garabatoz. His stuff get leaked by 4 of his own patrons. Gara get less money as a result.

LoZeed

7 years, 1 month ago

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TBH Patreon has never been worth shit and people hacking the system to hell and back proves it.
Paywalling all your art will always have it's nay sayers and haters.

fibs

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ LoZeed

"Criminals are proof that legitimate enterprise is worthless"

LoZeed

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ LoZeed

I got blocked for having an opinion, anyway there are two sides to the story and some people don't want to hear the opposing sides argument.

BizyMouse

7 years, 1 month ago

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i'd upload my own stuff on there if the site didn't require my patreon.com cookie to do it. Views are views as far as i'm concerned. No one using yiff.party was gonna pay for my stuff but maybe someone they share it with will. *shrugs*

Makogrey

7 years, 1 month ago

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never heard of yiff party till now but I will keep an eye out for them from now on

moonwulf

7 years, 1 month ago

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I don't see a problem with Yiff party personally. It kinda varies to how artists run their Patreon. For artists that release their content a few weeks to a month after it has been on Patreon? I can support that. It's when artists make most of their content completely exclusive, put all their art behind a paywall, and don't release their patreon content for up to a full year afterwards that i have a problem with. That is one of the benefits of Yiff party at least.

LoZeed

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ moonwulf

That's exactly what I was talking about, when you put up a hard paywall and leave your fans high and dry your basically justifying things like yiff party.

alphafrostifur

7 years, 1 month ago

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This comment requires a Inkbunny Gold Account™ to view.

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ alphafrostifur

Gold level minimum contribution: $100/3 month! 😸

Nahhhh. On Inkbunny, everyone is a PAW member!

wizardofwtf

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

this comment needs an inkbunny platinum account to view. get early access now for just 5$!

dont worry, im sure someone will put it on e6.
damn pirates, amirite?

TwoTails

7 years, 1 month ago

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It is not that simple.
Yiffparty exists because some artists annoyingly retract into only offering what they used to do but now for ridiculous fees most people can't pay, for example - Even someone with a fairly large income can't afford to buy premium subscriptions to all their favorite artists if it's like a dozen people or more.

Patreon was supposed to be a tipjar and encourage people to do more, but the evils of profits over consideration took over.
So the phrase "slippery slope" applied very much here.

The claims of piracy ruining people & company profits has been repeatedly proven over time to be little more than an excuse for their own failures. At worst it might finish off something that's already failing a bit faster.
Sega Collapsed right before it was really possible for many people to DL & emulate the Dreamcast, so that was just bad rep & timing.
Cave Story was originally a game available for free, but people later bought it too.
Nintendo does pretty well selling emulations of their own old games even though practically everyone had them already.

Even with popufurs stuff being leaked like an ocean, many of them still earn thousands per month.
So the problem is a massive exponential in popularity that must be obtained.
Artists with like 10,000+ fans can sell practically anything, artists with less than 5,000 can often get flat out ignored.
That's just how it works.

Syaokitty

7 years, 1 month ago

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Some of the comments on this journal are very upsetting as an artist. Artists provide you with content, and they have every right to ask for money for that content, if people want to "paywall" their content, that's their business, they're offering a product and service. Supporting sites like this is stealing, it shows they don't have respect for these artists and it DOES hurt our bottom lines.

DeletedName

7 years, 1 month ago

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"If you're good at something never do it for free"
Know that quote? Oddly enough it's from The Joker from Batman: Dark Knight, these artists get paid for their art from people who love it enough to want to pay for it.

“The site’s mission is simply to make paid Patreon content available for free”
PAID content for free? Think on this one, not too hard cause it's simple, why do artists get paid?

ArcCahlon

7 years, 1 month ago

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not really sure if posting patreon exclusive art is hurting creators here's a simple way to know. is the creator making money from this? if yes then are you posting it free? if again yes then you are causing the creator to lose money.

seriously I can't stand people like this I hate it too when an artists blocks stuff I can't see but i have yet to see ANY artist not a single one who doesn't either release the exclusive art later (1-6 months later) or offer totally free art even if the NSFW art is kept private. appreciate the artists if you can show them support and if you can't do it with money be a decent human being and not steal their work, they work hard for you mostly for free. be happy they give you anything.

Incaros

7 years, 1 month ago

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Does...this guy even understand what income is? They state that their goal isn't to take income from artist in the same statement that says that they are pretty much taking income from artist.

TailsyFox

7 years, 1 month ago

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It's a shame really, art used to be about creative expression and publicizing it to critics and fans, for artists to hide their talents behind a paywall now is not only a waste but it's like watching a puppet master become the puppet because art used to be about expression and showing it off with pride.
don't get me wrong though I'm not rebelling against your stance on art. if artists demand payment for their work that's their decision. but consider this, is it better to make art for fun? or for a living? which makes you happiest? :)

Delquea

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ TailsyFox

Problem is some people do need an income, but that where the bigger problem comes in. You can only survive off of art for so long unless you're incredibly skilled, and using patreon as the means is pretty flawed. Thankfully more alternatives are popping up. Granted I see no issue with paywalls. My beef comes from people who pretty much hide EVERYTHING that was once viewed by all into one. Yeah its their decision but damn is it a very greedy decision. Pretty much everyone who watched you already have everything you just put behind a paywall XD

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ TailsyFox

Being able to make a living from your art tends to make artists happier than having to do another job and just squeeze art in here and there where they can grab a few hours. And it also tends to result in more and better art.

Who gets to see that art (and when) can be interesting questions; but overall things have come a long way from the days where you could be paying $$ just for a portfolio of black and white line art. As you'd expect, since we don't have to deal with printing and distribution (even hosting fees are relatively minimal now at scale, and artists generally don't have to pay at all).

Try applying the argument to fursuit-building - would you say "oh, you should only be doing this for the love of it!" Maybe some would (and some still do), but I guarantee you the reason we've seen far better suits - to the benefit of all - is that it became a viable business.

It's not quite the same situation because the resulting fursuits tend to be publicly displayed - but they don't have to be. (Actually one could argue that builders are missing a trick by not renting them out, although they often get sold off as second-hand suits later on.)

TailsyFox

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

That depends on the artist really, drawing when you want to is different then needing to draw to pay your bills.

I'm not sure, an artists creativity can tire out if they keep making art because they have to rather then because they want to, while it may seem like a great choice making a living doing something you love, it tends to wear out the creative mind and cause whats called artist block.

But like I said it's their choice how they want to use their art. I'm just offering my opinion on the matter :)

Heuvadoches

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

Argument for "Yiff Party": You're still getting paid for your works, right?  The initial proposition happened ... the work happened ... the payment happened.  No one's out any money.  Loss of copyright and possible degradation of future works by the community as a whole.

Argument against "Yiff Party": Legal - Copyright issues and loss thereof.  Loss of freedom of speech and possible continued high quality ensured.

...

Dunno, man.  When you strip it down, it's hard to make a choice.  There's pros and cons on each side.

Edit:  By the way ... thank you for providing the Streisand Effect.  I'd never known about this wonderful service before now.

Edit 2:  Also ... I support artists, I really do.  I've paid for most of my art and have received some for free ... but this transition from Draw and Release everything to OMFG, PAWALL IT, I NEED THE MONIES!!! is retarded.  I guess this is what drives new artists to come up ... because we (as consumers) get disgusted with the corporatism bullshit.  Just remember ... the free market works both ways ... You're free to use patreon as your sole income and paywall ... and I'm free to spend my money elsewhere.

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ Heuvadoches

The issue is that you're probably not getting paid as much if someone scrapes your Patreon account. Certainly it is possible to overestimate lost revenue, but it also has a real impact - how many will pay for content if it is well known that they don't have to?

Artists often create artwork with the expectation that they will gain future revenue off of it. If they lose that revenue stream, they have to raise it by other means - for examples, commissions may start to cost three times as much, because they can't count on any income after that.

It's similar to creating commissioned works for business which cannot be sold to others, only used as promotion for your skills. The artist's time has to be compensated, either by one person or several.

tom641

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

how many will pay for content if it is well known that they don't have to?

So far it's looking like everybody who was already paying on patreon would. I've stuck my head into that site and the most dangerous thing i've heard it doing from both supporters and detractors of it is that the scraper bots make the amount earned look bigger than it should since their payments don't go through. Which sucks, no doubt, but it's only a visual error. The money was never there to begin with.

Heuvadoches

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

"	GreenReaper wrote:
	The issue is that you're probably not getting paid as much if someone scrapes your Patreon account. Certainly it is possible to overestimate lost revenue, but it also has a real impact - how many will pay for content if it is well known that they don't have to?

I paid for content when there was even more free. So ... the argument is moot.

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ Heuvadoches

It's not a black and white issue. You may do so, others may not.

I used to work for a commercial software development company. Piracy had a significant effect on sales. When it was made harder, sales improved. Obviously, some people still bought the product even when it was freely available on warez sites. But not all.

Heuvadoches

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

you weren't going to get those sales anyway.

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ Heuvadoches

We weren't going to get the "all", no, the goal was the "some".
Which was achieved by adding protection and removing warez copies. 😸

Heuvadoches

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

Then you've removed a source of free advertisement. There are studies that show that people who otherwise wouldn't have bought an item, when presented with a "warez" copy to try for a reasonable amount of time, bought the real McCoy?

Funny how that phrase "There is no such thing as bad advertisement" works, 'eh?

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ Heuvadoches

Except our sales went up significantly after the warez was taken down. I'm not sure how many times I have to make this point. It wasn't a research project. In a real life situation, we more money when we took reasonable steps to discourage piracy by removing warez listings.

There may be cases where the behaviour you describe occurs. This was not one of those cases - or if it was, it did not outweigh the significant number of people who were not merely "exposed" to the pirate copies, but sought them out in order to avoid paying for a licensed copy.

Heuvadoches

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

There's a point, in any system where there's a tipping point. A donut hole, if you will. Your company fell into that, I'm sure. Something like Photoshop or AutoCAD, though, they're not "hurt" by piracy. If anything, they're helped by it by exposing many more hundreds/thousands to the product and locking them into an industry that uses said products. They'll eventually buy it, at least that's been my experience with software pirates. That's also been my personal experience too. I've pirated many things. Some, yes, I was bad and didn't buy, but most I did, because I liked the product.

TailsyFox

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

Delquea

Yeah it's tough for an artist to make a passable income unless their famous and receive tons of requests, my art teacher even told his students that in class. I just find that artist's who end up going this route also lose their passion for art. I see no problem with leaving out a sort of tip jar and asking for support tho, rather then demanding it and keeping their art hostage behind a paywall lol

DashKnifeEdge

7 years, 1 month ago

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As if one doesn't have already enough trouble with thieves...

Jerriki

7 years, 1 month ago

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My counter-argument is this: too many creators are paywalling everything then expecting consumers to shell out $5 or $30 to access it, sight unseen. I don't mind paying for stuff that looks interesting (whether or not it turns out to be), but I do mind having to effectively gamble on whether there's anything there that'll interest me.
Relevant Aside: I am an author/game dev, and I don't know where the proper line lies, but I lean towards at least demos and samples that readily available.

tom641

7 years, 1 month ago

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Eh, really I don't think YP matters. Nobody's losing patrons to it existing except in the most theoretical sense of "Well what if someone new decides not to?!"

Ultimately most if not all of the people using that site wouldn't be paying you anyway so trying to dance around them is just making it more difficult on your paying customers. So it's a choice between "keep doing what works" and "change things to spite anonymous pirates and new patrons" while your stuff is inevitably leaked on various other image sharing websites if people like it enough.

DeletedName

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

It does get irritating when people think they're entitled to see all art for free, like I said in my comment above "If you're good at something never do it for free"

Relica

7 years, 1 month ago

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Sounds like class action time.

Halo3ForXbox360

7 years, 1 month ago

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I use Yiff.Party, not because I think I'm entitled to free art, but because I can't really pay for it. My PayPal isn't set up all the way, and I doubt my mother wants me using hers to pay for furry porn. In addition, YP even encourages viewers to support the creators featured, as even one dollar helps.

tl;dr I use the site because circumstances prevent me from legitimately paying for it. I would pay for it if I could, but as it stands, I can't.

DeletedName

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ Halo3ForXbox360

Are they posting recent pictures?

Halo3ForXbox360

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ DeletedName

It depends on the artist. YP doesn't hack into the Patreon database to steal posts, the posts are submitted by patrons who share the content. This results in some artists having complete pages, while others can be missing months worth of content. The posts are submitted completely unmodified, so that if an artist has a method to prevent such things from working, they won't work. For example, one artist had the links to his comic pages password protected, and the password was given in an e-mail to backers. YP does not allow the distribution of these passwords.

In addition, the very statement in this journal, the admin stated that he designed the site so that people like myself could see the content because circumstances prevent us from paying.

krezz

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ Halo3ForXbox360

Hey, I DO have the intention to get a car, but "certain circumstances" prevent me to buy one... can I go to your house and steal your car? I really need it, I'm sure you will understand! XD

Halo3ForXbox360

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ krezz

Well, I mean yeah, it sounds pretty stupid when you put it like that. I'm simply trying to play Devil's Advocate to an extent, because I always like both sides of a conflict to be represented equally.

DeletedName

7 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 7 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ Halo3ForXbox360

The person who runs it may think it's okay but there was no consent for it, that's the issue.
I am a Patron to that guy up there, Krezz, so I would feel a little annoyed if what I pay for is being put out for free. Wouldn't be a point in spending money on Patreon if that's the case but I'm not that guy.

tom641

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ krezz

Only if you can do so in such a way that you only copy the car, leaving it there for me to use.

GreenReaper

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ tom641

Still kinda sucks for the people trying to sell cars. All that design work... >_>;
Though to be honest we probably don't need that many designs.

tom641

7 years, 1 month ago

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@ GreenReaper

True enough, i'm just pointing out that this argument that people looking at your stuff from patreon doesn't fit this idea of "stealing something off the shelf". Unless the person was someone who was going to pay to get your work above so many other patreon artists' work that has now decided not to, you aren't really losing anything.

I fully understand being unhappy with the situation but considering how many artists have had their pictures put on Yiff.Party without any issue in terms of money flow, it really seems like it's ultimately not that big a deal. At the very least, it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere so somehow, someway, you'll have to deal in your own way, assuming you don't just ignore it since it doesn't seem to actually be making many, if any, patrons drop their donations.

Pecan

6 years, 11 months ago

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When you sit and actually think about it, you'll see nothing illegal is being done here. If they were hacking the site and actually stealing artwork, that would be one thing, but they aren't. They are paying for it, and then posting their copy of said art via their own patreon account. While it may be against the terms of service at Patreon (something that I cannot confirm), sharing online accounts like this is NOT illegal.

If this type of thing was illegal, then anytime we invited someone over for "Netflix and Chill" we would be breaking the law, because they didn't pay for it, you did.

bbmbbf

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ Pecan

uh. you're totally wrong. but i'm too lazy to discuss ^^

(purchasing a dvd and distributing movies on internet is not legal, neither fair with the people who invested money and effort in the production, this is the same scenario, sharing an account on netflix is not allowed by them actually but you have an alternative to create a premium account that gives access to a limit of persons, is not also the same than just ripping netflix movies and upload on a torrent site)... I can say more but i'm really too lazy to discuss about this

Pecan

6 years, 11 months ago

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@ bbmbbf

It isn't the same scenario, though, not at all.
Let's say I bought a copy of Zootopia on dvd. I download it from the disc, copy it, and send copies to all of my friends. Yes, that makes me a pirate.
Now, let's say I buy Zootopia on the Playstation Network. A friend wants to watch it, so I let them log into my account to watch it. This is not piracy, and is not illegal.
That's what YP is doing. They aren't giving out copies of the artwork, they're giving out access to donator's Patreon accounts, so they can view the patreon posts themselves. This is not illegal. Against the ToS? Most likely. Immoral? Maybe, not my call to make. Illegal? No.

(Also, for your information, the different Netflix tiers are for how many devices can watch Netflix at once, NOT how many people can use the account. Even if it was, once again being against ToS does not mean illegal.)

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