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Raukue

RPG Builds. Stats. Skill Trees. Addicting. But Why...

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Why do most builds NEVER show the HOW? They only show the end result of a build, in most cases. In short, never any step by step on the order of the build.

As in, they show you the final result in the skill tree, Borderlands as an example... and in other cases show the final stats you should have at this high level... Dark Souls for example. Super rare to find someone saying to focus on this stat on a build first before diving into this stat.. or mix and match. Also have to consider how the game progresses as to why it's better to focus on this because early in game and then later on this because later in game.

I been on a Borderlands 2 kick again and it's that RPG build stuff that has prevented me from getting burnt too quickly. I just keep thinking of what skills are best to learn first as a new class? Because you can reset your skills it seems somewhat good to learn a skill early in game that is otherwise not part of the final build planned. I try to look at builds but that can be confusing before you have played that class long enough. The problem though is that they just show the final result and don't usually give the order. Yes, I understand people who just power level to that end point but... what about those of us who enjoy playing the game normally?

So I just think my brain is unable to think of what would be best to learn first and in what order. I dunno how people come up with builds. I dunno if hundreds of hours would make me come up with a build that most would agree with in working well. I suppose it depends on the game. Still, I end up stressing over looking at builds, the skills and gear and all that... again thinking Borderlands 2 mostly.



Back on why I make this journal... just WHY does NO ONE ever give the step by step?! So rare... these Dead Island build videos I saw are one of the only ones I have found that tell you which order and give the why he chose this order. But now knowing Dead Island... game is pretty bare bone in skill trees and make the choices too easy... that's besides the point.

Anyway... I guess in the end... people just look at the end of a game. Which brings up another thought... in why do people wanna be given the best gear and max level? Once you have the best gear and max level... what else is there to hunt for? Part of the fun is hunting and finding new stuff. I guess people just wanna fight end game bosses but... why? No more skills to learn, no more new gear just... no reason to do so anymore. When I reach an end game with a character I make a new one and start fresh. Just people wanna win so badly I guess that they forget the journey... eh? Folk complain about early game being boring and nothing to do... failing to realize that really the end game, with best gear and max level is the true nothing to do.



I envy those who I have talked about builds in which they say they do NOT look or follow builds... they just do their own thing! Experiment and test and just see what works for them. I get pretty OCD with this stuff so I always look at builds and tend to follow them closely. With Borderlands 2 I am feeling this philosophy of... only 26 points on a skill tree and no more. To only use 26 points, to get that final skill at the bottom and then do the same on a 2nd tree and use the left over points on the 3rd tree. To me that feels nice on paper. I like to be balanced and spread myself out... Red Mage type if you will but still be strong in a certain area. It feels I should stick to the way I want to rather than follow these builds that put more points than that on a skill tree but... heh. Just maybe my way of doing things is probably not as effective though.

So anyone who reads all this and all... comment on your thoughts on any of this! And well I think I could be up for finding Borderlands 2 partners who have a similar play style to me. As in we do every side mission, let each other shop and share and all that stuff. And... I dunno. Anyway I shall stop blabbing on.
Viewed: 95 times
Added: 9 years, 7 months ago
 
PeachClover
9 years, 7 months ago
o.o  My god, you are hyper focusing on stupid crap.
Games are about playing, and playing is about finding a task you enjoy.  Most adults have to be tricked into enjoying play by adding goals to those tasks.  Most modern players of exploration games focus on getting the best stuff/stats as their goal so that they can enjoy the game, but trying to place a meaningful purpose to the whole process is why many a-parent has pitched a bitch over their kid playing said game instead of doing something "meaningful".  I enjoy the story and that is why I trudge through all the other stuff.  Stat building in modern games has come with greater rewards, the best of which are improved plot lines, but what it ultimately comes down to is what work the player finds entertaining.  Game guides that tell you what is best to have at the end of the game do not tell you how to get there because if they did, what exactly is the point of you playing the game then?  Unless you enjoy being a mindless robot following instructions without deviation from the program, figure it out yourself, and if you do enjoy being a mindless robot, then spend your effort doing something productive, like actually making armor to sell at renfairs.
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
Dunno if you are being rude here. People play games for different reasons. And to say how they only give the end so you play the game your way? Then what is the purpose of it being there to begin with?

Some people play for story. Others prefer gameplay. I could not play a game I found boring gameplay wise even if the story was amazing just... no. It is better off being some movie or something instead if that is the case.

I get burnt out on games after playing them for a long period. When I have already played the game however I want the 1st time around and know what is what... mood gets burnt out, don't touch the game for a long time. Last time I played Borderlands 2 was Nov 2012 it seems. So I mean... yeah. I just get OCD and things like this is what keeps me interesting. You also have to admit it is these RPG elements that make games like Borderlands... or even CoD with the whole ranking up and all that... make people feel like they are accomplishing more than they are... giving this goal and something to aim for. I can bet you that if in CoD they took away the Rank ordeal and let everyone access to everything as if maxed Rank... people would rage and uproar and want the ranking back.

But yeah... sounds like a rude comment there. You don't know me and you dunno how I enjoy games. I like for games to be challenging. If a game is too easy then it is a bit harder to enjoy it unless it is just that fun to play. But going by your first statement "finding a task you enjoy" I would think... maybe... I enjoy this RPG element stuff, hmm? Making anything you said afterward kinda null. So I mean... yeah. Dunno if you were in some cruddy mood when you made that comment there. Or if I hit a nerve because you are the type to hit end game or what but I mean... yeah.
PeachClover
9 years, 7 months ago
I guess I am in a cruddy mood, because, some many months ago, did you not post a journal asking which joystick configuration was better, Y standard or Y inverted?  I'm fairly sure that was you, and even then, I told you you were hyperfocusing on the stuff that wasn't important.  I am shocked to see that your existential meditations on all of this has not yet brought you to the answer to all of the questions you posted above.   The answer of course is that games are work, they are just work that people choose to enjoy because of a perceived higher work input/reward output ratio (and yes, sometimes games are MUCH harder and less rewarding than real work), so the game makers' job is to figure out how to make game play fun.  Over the years, they have found that hiding simple childrens' games into the big kid games are the simplest way of making goals: hide and seek, scavenger hunt, redlight, and of course target practice.  So for you to ask in your first sentence why this is followed by a wall of data, I see you almost trying to not see the answer for yourself.  
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
It was just a discussion. Just giving my thoughts. Because I was converting into the change of it all. So I thought, lemme share my thoughts. I wasn't rude about the thoughts or anything like that. I wasn't calling anyone robots or command them to do this or that. I would think I was civilized about it.

Anyway I am now the down is down, up is up when it comes to Y axis. I dunno if that has anything to do with it but... you seem to take these journals quite seriously. I don't make journals as much as others out there do and that is because I usually don't have anything to say... but when I do I feel like sharing my thoughts and see if anyone feels the same and why or why not. Simple as that. I don't like to make journals that go "hey guys look at this video!" and all kinda thing or something short and I dunno.

So yeah... so serious you are taking this. I am not demanding anything from this at all. It's just one of those "ever notice" kind of things. I am not upset about there being a lack of what I talked about or anything like that, at all. Dunno if it sounded that way or what. If it was the caps or something? I have found myself using caps to emphasize words lately I notice when I never did before.. much like I did with NOT and WHY. Even when I chat with friends.

Here is the journal though, I dunno if I ever said which one was better. I was just saying I found it weird is all. Maybe bad wording? But just interesting how the human mind works things out is all.

https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=19484
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
I think the only "better" I was talking about is if it would "make ME better at playing games" and not talking about if invert or non-invert was better itself.

https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=19484

I just think aloud in these journals. Not to be taken seriously. Not to read too deeply or get upset over it or anything. There are many things I "hyperfocus" on that I do not make journals about. Like... really. I just make these journals cause I think some nice discussion can come from it or see who else feels the same way. Just whatever pops into my mind at the moment. Few days or weeks from now I won't be thinking about this RPG build business anymore. Just like I forgot about the Y invert and all that stuff. I am not always thinking about these things.
Tuney
9 years, 7 months ago
I think the ones that only show the end build can possably be three factor. As mentioned earlier , Skill resets the 'end game build' might not be a very good leveling build. The second reason being they probbly didn't level to that point and just had a charater at max level. The 3rd 'the paper build' , a build that only exists in paper and the maker of that build didn't feel like leveling it up for XYZ reason.

I someone feel the same about RPGs and skill and trees. It can help make a repetitive game differnt because you are doing it with a differnt class or build. I know when I used to play Dungeons and Dragons Online I liked depth of customization one could have. Though in DDO , the 'Flavor of the month' builds people went in depth in what to pick at each level because some of them were so complicated if you didn't do it in that order it wouldn't work hehe.

PS- Sorry about typo's in Queue for a game and if I try to do spell check on a word it freezes and crashes my browser hehe.
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
I am just saying that there are people who go through so much trouble to explain why they choose these skills, gear and all that. Explaining game scenario's, mostly end game boss stuff or something, as to why this and that. So I mean if they can do all that then why no minds gathering to find a "as you grow" build?

By paper I mean you read what a skill does and think "oh that sounds sweet" but in practice it fails to live up to it. It is only once you try that class and know the game enough to be "huh, not too many enemies weak against fire so it does not seem worth investing in this fire boost skill" or some such.

But yes I mean I would try different builds as well. For fun kind of thing, knowing they won't be that effective or strong, if I can ignore that feeling of OCD or whatever it is I have that makes me wanna go with what will help more.
Weiss
9 years, 7 months ago
I follow a few Champions online build guides that actually focus on the WHY. Like for example with every Archetype at a certain level you have to choose between 2 skills and the guide tells you WHY you should choose the one they say.They also explain why you should choose the Advantages they tell you too. Mind you not ALL of the ones i follows describe the why but  most of them do
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
I don't mean that 'why'. I mean it seems they explain why those chose what they did. But I just meant like the way to that point. When I see a build explain a late skill and say "this is why this early skill sucks. once you learn this later skill" and yet that early skills is pretty nice until you learn that skill though... least to me.

Anyway... wonder if this journal was a good idea now with how I think I got a rude comment up there. I just thought people would discuss and not go insulting others. Not referring to your comment.
Weiss
9 years, 7 months ago
Yes i saw the comment you are referring to. And they say that because...well lets be honest that´s the nature of all games,getting better and better skills to replace the old ones right?And yeah the old ones might be good up until you get the new ones,then they become obsolete.But i know where you are coming from i feel the same with the CO guides i mentioned. For example the Inferno guide i followed said the Fire Strike was a good skill but in the Fireball description they mentioned its better than Fire Strike. Yet Fire Strike doesnt need to be charged up.Sure it doesnt do as much damage as Fireball and it isnt AOE but it debuffs.I guess they only look at DPS and not at the rest of the advantages
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
I do enjoy games with a challenge though. It feels good to be good at em. I believe I am better than games than I have been before. When I replay games I played when younger or few years ago I am like... I found this hard before? Though I mean... is it really being good when it's a single player game? Or rather, against AI? How some say it's just about exploiting the predictable AI or something. And how with some other games, like platformers or otherwise, are just muscle memory. I am just not really the PvP multiplayer competitive type of gamer.

But yeah people enjoy games for different reasons. Some get way deep into the story and characters. Others just enjoy how fun it is to play the game, to move around and do actions. Suppose there are those who cannot play arcade type games, with no real story or anything but just about the gameplay, no matter how fun the game is. There are people who will play a game with boring gameplay, broken, dull or otherwise... if they find the story and characters great and engaging. I personally, if could only be on one side of the spectrum, I would go with gameplay. Of course I enjoy a great story and characters as well and love both gameplay and story combining to be great but... if I could only choose one... you know?

Either way I don't beat down on someones reason for playing a game. WIth what they get out of the game that makes them enjoy it so much. It is just bad and sad when on gaming sites and reading comments of people saying "this is what makes a gamer and if you don't do these things you are not a gamer" bullness and all.
Weiss
9 years, 7 months ago
I´m not a PVP guy myself,hell even in mmos like Champions i tend to play alone unless i really cant solo a certain event(Like the latest Mechanon even).And yes even in single player,even against AI you ARE good,being a single player kind of guy doesnt make you bad at games since even against AI it takes skill and practice to win. And sometimes AI can be unpredictable ya know?I dont tell anyone how to play either nor do i think there is a single description of what makes a gammer and yes posting those things is as dumb as the Casual VS Hardcore gamers BS i´v been seeing everywhere
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
I do believe in that whole, gamer or non-gamer thing to an extent. Not super extreme like some folk do. I mean if all someone does is play the same 3 games and nothing new... how can I talk about games with them? They won't have a clue of the game I speak of and all. I like to use an example of... if someone says they are a "big movie watcher" you would think they watch many movies, yes? That you can bring up a movie and talk about it. But no... turns out all they watch is the same 10 movies or left over and over and nothing more. How can I talk about movies with them after those 10 movies?

So eh I dunno. There are just different type of gamers that help figure out what games that person plays mostly. The MMO gamer who plays nothing but MMOs. The dudebro who plays nothing but CoD and sports and probably other FPS military games. The casual who only plays the few popular games they hear like Mario or Angry Birds yet dunno what Zelda or other games that are never really shown off all the time... I dunno. Eh either way it's all good and nothing to get worked up over. It's just a sadness when someone says "Mario is such a kiddie game, bro. Real gamers play CoD and not that other kiddie shit" and all. Just sounds like folk who dunno what it means to be a gamer but claim to be one themselves.
ScottySkunk
9 years, 7 months ago
that comment isnt your fault. thats Peachclover being Peachclover
RedReynart
9 years, 7 months ago
Raukue..

As a player, Gamer, and Game Developer myself.  

RPG games today aren't the same as the ones of yesteryear. That is for sure. Games today give you allot of leeway in the terms of how the player sees their characters. It is why we have player classes,  Tanks, Medics, Sharpshooters, over all soldier..

But then they break further down into play styles with "attack and flee", "Lets stand back a bit" and "Run and Gun" skill trees.

Boarderlands 2 breaks down this and displays all of it right up front. Axton is your soldier (well rounded) Maya your Serin (Medic) Zero the Assassin (sharpshooter) and Salvador is your Gunzerker (Tank) of course you have Gaige and keige? (sorry for spelling) which have a class of their own.

Since their trees are always open to yo to see how and what skills to put where, it really comes down to play style and situation as you can also respect your skills at any given time (and I do all the time really)

I play the game with my brother on the xbox 360 (split screen) so there ever is two of us. I played as Zero as he with Salvador, then we toped at lvl 40 and beat the game, Then we went to Axton and Maya and decided to pwr level till about lvl 20 then we played all the DLC content (wasn't that a pain in the but XD fun fun) This is when the characters really shown in on importance of respecting.

My brother chose to mix two trees to allow a good defence in retreiving health but a great offence as well. I choose durring hamlocks campaign to go all out and obtain the "nuke" While my brothers phaselock sucked them all to one area, I blasted them away with my turret (litterally)

Durring Torgues Campaign I chose a more offencive turret (the missles) Together we took down pyro the invincible because the turrent distracted him long enough to wail on him (then we ran, allot, ALLOT)

So you can say that your play style can change allot given the diffrent situations. There is no guide because really it is up to you. O.o Experiment, play and see what works. That is how the developer intended their games to be played any way.

Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
You forget that Maya is also offensive with elemental and status effects. Zer0 can either go the Sniper route or go the melee route. Gunzerker be more focused on health regen balance or just be all out offensive.

But hmm yeah I think about that stuff though. I am playing with a friend, he is Axton and I am Maya. I thought about going the healing route BUT since it is only 2 of us that don't seem too helpful. Feels as if Maya is more helpful in a full 4 player game. With only 2 of us we both have to be offensive and somewhat supportive of the other. Obviously my Phaselock holds em in place and his turret distracts from both of us. I decided to go down her Cataclysm tree up until Cloud Kill and then move onto Motion tree to get Converge and Quicken. The reason I went Cataclysm first was the Helios to add that extra damage in there. Once I reach Converge that will only make it better by sucking them in, least I hope so. But suppose next time I make a Siren I will try going down Motion first and see what difference that makes.

As for another friend I was playing with... I am Salvador, who is my first I ever played and got furthest in be it just level 38. He is Zer0. But speaking of Zer0, for him to go the melee route, it seems best if he does in co-op since seems some of his skills get a boost from attacking another from behind or who is focused on another. For a solo Zer0 it maybe seems better to go Sniper route due to the lack of having another distract. I thought about choosing him to play with my Axton friend but I wanted to be more helpful kind of thing and to me it just feels like Axton + Maya is a good combo... or Maya + Salvador. I dunno who Zer0 is best fit for but... ah well.

I know no guide is needed and the game is possible to get through no matter what but... yeah. People will always gather and come up with builds when it comes to games. I will see what works for me and all that but I just look at guides to give me a better idea of things. Though when it comes to MMOs where you can't really reset, least the ones I play, for a price kind of thing... then I follow builds more strictly. Be it ones like Maple Story or such. I don't do MMOs anymore though.

Anyway as I think I said in the journal... I envy those who don't get so worked up over such things and just do it however. I can only try to get as close to that as I can because well... we are all different and some of us, our brains, just can't let things go and change.
RedReynart
9 years, 7 months ago
MMO's XD Gosh the one I played for so long before it went down hill was SRO or SilkRoad online. Fun as hell back in the day

It was based on what else, the silk road so you had a triangle system of Theif, Merchants and the Hunters . I loved to be a theif and rob the players of goods for gold.

That being said everyone that chose a chineese was solo players, europeans more focused on party players. (simple right?)

My character was a glaive (higest out put of damage, slow attacks) That being said you had the weapon but you can enchant with a magic as well and only 3, Fire, Ice and Electric.

You can guess Fire is Highest damage output and that was how EVERYONE played the character.. XD not me.. See the higher your attack physically, the lower your magical defence and I HATE WIZARDS.. Did I follow the guide? HELL NO...

I wore robes (more magical defence on the garments) and I used ICE. I knew my attack was more powerfull and so I used it to freeze and slow down my foes, And I didn't go pure streanth and put a little to magical defence. I was a wizard killer and no wizard could kill me in one shot with their nukes. This gave me time to freeze them and counter. XD Oh the fun days.. Till someone of even higher level came in and wooped your butt lol..

O.o you definatly have to play to your own style, I was really good at PVP but not PVE =/ so yeah I do so hate games like that to which you can't repspect or they have extreamly high prices to pay if you do. -.- again SRO went down hill fast.

And I know Maya has offence too XD but over all is the cleric. Again tweeking to player styles.

Funny how your first was a combo of Salvador and Zero, and then Maya and Axton XD exactly how me and my brother played. We are now working on the 2 others Gaige and Kreige. (the psycho)

=P not sure what the best combos are for characters, fun fun fun.
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
Gaige and Krieg seem like another good combo to me... only cause you have the little girl and her robot and this big ol burly guy as if to protect her... I dunno. But only feels that way when it comes to looks I suppose and dunno much about action combat pairing.

And I don't really see Maya as mainly a cleric type though I know she can be and all. I just don't feel going Cleric with her is worth it if only a 2 player team. You need some extra offensive and support with only 2 players rather than healing. It is just how I see it anyway. In a full 4 party team then her healing would seem more effective as you have 3 being offensive and support while she heals and supports. But maybe I am wrong and her healing helps even with just 2 total players.

Anyway most characters can be built in different ways but I found when you focus on their special ability... Axton's turret, Salvador's Gunzerking... that is where you really do the most damage and support. Feels as if the game was more designed to rely on your classes special skill this time around. In the 1st Borderlands it didn't feel that way too much of having to rely so heavily on your class skill. But even so... each character has a "focus on special ability" or "focus on just my character". Just as in to beef up your class ability by increasing duration, reducing cooltime, adding effects to it... or focus on your character such as Reload speed, gun damage, health and shield rates... etc. Of course mixing and matching as well.

So yeah... on a side note it feels like every character can do well enough solo except Zer0 and probably Krieg. Though from the sounds it, Krieg becomes quite the killer on higher levels. How he starts off pretty bleh on early levels but once you get those better skills then I hear how he is hard to kill so... hmm.
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
Also look at the comment I made below of just some of the builds I tweaked from others I saw... just because of how I wanna keep that 26 points per skill tree... though maybe a 28 limit can be fine too.

https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=150217#commenti...
ScottySkunk
9 years, 7 months ago
in most dark souls lets plays, you see them building up. where to find gear/spells. etc.
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
Well it's not like I am going to watch an entire Let's Play though... even though the 1 livestreamer I watch has been playing nothing but that game for the past few months. Even so... I don't watch all of it since he plays for 2 days or so straight these days as well. Still, he is not pro and he too has been looking at builds per playthrough.

Anyway yeah... when I got into Demon's Souls, the only one I have played.. I plan to get into Dark Souls later this year or early next year... anyway with Demon's Souls I looked up guides and only read end results. I still, in the end, did my own thing though. While you have folk say focus on mostly STR or only Magic or some such... I was doing a mix of STR and DEX with some FTH. Did a balanced overall thing. Enough Dex to use bows strongly. Have FTH to be using weapons with magic attack.
ScottySkunk
9 years, 7 months ago
lately in DS2 clerics/ miracles got nerfed. before then i saw mostly strenght/faith builds.

if you want a good guide id suggest "paperplanes" on youtube. he did a dark souls guide for most builds
Sarakha
9 years, 7 months ago
I read in one of the comments that you were playing as Maya, whom I've played as. If you're looking for a Red Mage type, go with Harmony and Cataclysm. Those rocket launchers make good healing headshots for partners.

On a more generalized note, I'm afraid I can't help much; I want to be able to do plenty of things, but at the same time, there is that overbearing limitation of how many points I'm allowed. Then I look at all the builds and possibilities and my reaction is "Forget it, I'll just do what I want!" because it's so annoying... But that's just personal experience. At least with Borderlands 2 there is the option of rewriting yourself.
Raukue
9 years, 7 months ago
Yeah. With those skill points... level 72 is a nice amount... it's just a shame they held back 22 levels to sell as DLC like that and are probably doing that for the next game as well... such bullshit that is. Anyway with playing Maya with the other friend, it is the ps3 version which I had first and it is non-GOTY so how I have to make her with a level 50 mindset which is... lame. Those extra 22 points are nice in that I can master 2 trees at least and get to the middle on a 3rd tree... feels so nice. I'd like to do that with all character builds. Just can be hard to do that sometimes when some like Krieg seem nicer to focus more on his red tree.

Just to share a bit of what I mean.

http://bl2skills.com/siren.html#5050014551050541000055...

Krieg with focus on Hellborn but... how I wanna try to stick with only having 26 points on a skill tree and no more though and move onto another.. I dunno. Though I don't like how his Bloodlust skill tree is a bunch of "kill skills" and all and feel going a bit over 26 is a bit better for him as in the 3rd build... hmm.

http://bl2skills.com/psycho.html#000000000000505500000...

http://bl2skills.com/psycho.html#505000140000505400101...

http://bl2skills.com/psycho.html#505000100000505500101...
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