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Zenobius' Scraps (129)

Model Feedback (Cartoon Puppy Character)

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by Zenobius

Scraps

Hey y'all, hope you peeps are doing well. :3
I was working on the model of my puppy cartoon character (Ricky) and I just wanted to ask for feedback, to see what everyone thinks about them.
Personally I'm not too happy with the results is what I'm saying.

On one hand I like the design on the left since it's most closest to the actual drawing of Ricky as I drew him in the comics, downside is that he looks somewhat... I dunno, grotesque? Too many sharp edges. And also, his eyes were a nightmare to work with being an oblong shape and all that and in the end (I'm sure some of you have seen the final render of him) it didn't turn out as well as I would've hoped. Heh~

The right design is a little more 'anatomically correct' and therefor easier to work with (Ignore the purple coloured ears, weird translucent eyes and semi-flat head, I was still working on that), downside is that it also looks grotesque but in a different way. His face looks more like one of those angel cherub statues that you find in churches as decoration. Know what I mean? It looks 'too' child-like and less cartoon-like. (at least to me) I do however like the way his mouth has pits (bringing his cheeks forward) and the eyes kind of look alright and adorable (and follow the shape of his head more) but the rest of how his face comes together is just... "Ew" to me, you know? His muzzle is too short and he looks a little too 'smooth' (and I'm not talking just about the smoothing going on here). I'm thinking it needs a little more personality/roughness, know what I mean?

So what I was thinking of doing is maybe just to start over again and block his face out more using more simple shapes, focusing less on the 'correctness' and 'tiny details' and more on trying to make it more expressive and aesthetically appealing whilst also trying to make it easier to work with when it comes to animating/rigging.

Still, I just want to know what you all think, what I could improve, what you would do and what I might be able to try to make it 'better'.
Sure, the feedback you give me might not fully connect with what I'm personally looking for (as you might've guessed, I already have a certain view in mind of how I plan Ricky to look) but that doesn't mean I'm not open to hear different ideas. Anything that could help me to improve my work is welcome, so don't be afraid to leave your thoughts.

Keywords

male 1,114,990, cub 250,983, canine 174,283, dog 157,347, 3d 21,076, man 17,211, character 15,989, puppy 15,957, guy 8,101, pup 6,830, model 3,150, character design 2,577, dude 2,453, 3d model 2,255, labrador 1,978, modeling 1,178, 3dmodel 692, characterdesign 436, ricky 235, modelling 181, jongen 113, jonge 86, desing 70, jongetje 41, ragebol 5, ricky ragebol 4, rickyragebol 2

Details

Type: Picture/Pinup

Published: 4 years, 9 months ago

Rating: General

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KaoNocturatzu

4 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 4 years, 9 months ago by Owner

Ah, it may be easiest to give advice on Discord cause a lot of what you do will be built upon layer by layer and will require me to share videos and screenshots of examples of what to look for. I've remade my models about 5 times from near scratch and working on a 6th iteration from nearly the ground up (I say nearly cause the general shape and meshes are reusable, but I need to fix a lot of things to get the accuracy and control I want). Feel free to ping me on Discord if you want more indepth advice. I made a small group of friends just before I left FA and we've been spending the last 6 months teaching each other so much about blender that we've pretty much become experts at it. With one of us making a game and me making animations.

The thing about it is, there are several things you need to consider for the model when making the base mesh. How you want to animate them, what you plan to do with them, what kind of materials, engine, etc are going to render them? etc. It's also worth considering making compromises on parts that you don't need to be constructed to specific style detail (like the torso or arms) when you can save time using a pre-made one that's edited to your character's scale. One subtle example is the smile. You modeled the character smiling which looks very cute, but I assure you, it'll be VERY difficult to change his expression later like if you want him to frown. It's highly recommended his base mesh have a neutral expression that's in the middle so changes can all come from the same distance and not from an extreme. You'll use shape keys to change the mouth, or you can rig it with bones for more control (though a bit harder). Heh trust me, I learned that lesson the hard way.

Ultimately I think you're on the right track from this glance. I personally like the model on the left more cause I like longer muzzles (short ones look too humanoid), but you'll likely end up making like 20 iterations of the head until you find a version you're happy with, can easily animate, and is easy to re-adjust in the future if you need to make tweaks. Still given they'e all node based wireframes, with 3D models, you really won't be able to appreciate the model until it's fully complete, materials, animated, and everything cause then you can see where you may need to make adjustments, but by then, it's very easy to go back and tweak things until they're perfect.

and finally, One thing that kind of hurts 2D artists who are new to 3D. "3D =/= 2D" The way your character looks good in 3D may not be the same as what you expect in a 2D drawing. Sometimes the 3D model will reveal details that your 2D art isn't able to cover easily (like perspective or how light bounces off certain areas like veins) but with 2D, you can easily add details that are near impossible in 3D (like hair, ultra easy in 2D, near impossible in 3D). It's good to get them as close as possible for consistency's sake, but keep in mind it'll take time to get used to what you're ultimately happy with in 3D. So don't worry about things like "Anatomically correct" in terms of the 2D or especially real life. Focus on what details you want your model to have and let your eyes do the work.

Zenobius

4 years, 9 months ago

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@ KaoNocturatzu

This may be because I'm more of an architecture artist rather than a character one and it shows. Heh~ Although your response has been very helpful already, I thought giving him a smile already gave him more of a 'base' but now that you mention it, this was what I was struggling with as I was (afterwards) trying to get the left model to look different, so giving him a neutral expression is definitely something that I can use and will incorporate in the new design. Thanks for that.

And as for animating the face, I use morphers which are easier to work with from my experience. Bones and targets give a bit more freedom as far as expressions go, although they're very difficult to set up (especially from videos I've seen and from what other artists have told me).

Reiterating models is something I'm very familiar with unfortunately, I guess it's because I'm picky? I guess I'll blame it on the 'artist's eye', always critical of my designs. heh~ and you're definitely right, it's when I've got most of it done that I'm like: "Eh, this could use some more work" and you're also right about the 2D Vs 3D thing. Ricky looks 'cute' in my comics but with the left model his muzzle looks more like the bow of a ship and the right is too 'eww human-like', it does reveal some problems and details that I've never noticed before. Especially hair yes, if there's one thing that's difficult it's hair. If you want to style it: Good luck handling those brushes and shitload of tools which do little to help your worries Lol! X//3
In 2D it's like: Draw them in the direction you want it and presto! Not to mention waiting for the render to finish just to see if what you did looks the way you planned it to look in the first place. Heh~ ^^

So yes, thank you very much for your feedback bud, this really helped me a lot. I guess I should say more: "I'm fine/okay with this" unless I want to spend an eternity making it look 'right', which I will never be able to do since it will always be 'wrong' in some way since, like you said, 2D never translates well to 3D. I should try to make more sacrifices. So thanks for that.

It's just the difference with my architectual work, where it's easy working with realism (since everything has logic behind it, so it's just filing in the numbers. Got a chair? Just look up the dimensions from the owner's site and use photo-references to get them right) This just proves to me that Character design (and fictional design in general) is more difficult than I initially thought.

Again, thanks! I can't appreciate your input enough! Thanks! ^^

KaoNocturatzu

4 years, 9 months ago

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Edited 4 years, 9 months ago by Owner

@ Zenobius

Hehe no problem! I think a lot of artists today are trying to find a mathematic way to solve how to draw characters, but the truth is, most art looks very artifical as a result. I remember a seminar I took in college where they showed us a 3D render of a girl and a photograph of the same girl. they asked which one looks better and unanomously everyone pointed to the photograph. When asked why, they all said, "Well... the render looks too perfect. She looks too smooth and her face is perfectly symmetrical".

As artists we need to remember that flaws in the hand and the shading and such are what make a character look more organic so long as you keep in mind what you see is what you get. Spending too long looking for flaws and expecting perfection, you'll never finish your work and to be honest, most 3D models look way better when animated and lively than they do still. Look at 3D models ripped from games without all the lighting and such or just look at source filmmaker animations. Even Wii U and PS3 models look very low poly compared to today's standard, but when you see gameplay footage from the N64, the models look fine and lively, even if dated. So sometimes you'll have to apply trial and error to see if the model works or you need to tweak it.

And yeah I use morphers (or shape keys as blender calls them) too. Bones do allow more control, but they are a pain to set up, and there are many expressions you can't do with bones easily cause the vertices won't move linearly compared to each other, they move in different directions (the mouth curve to make the smile and how the cheeks need to fold in a bit and blush a bit, the eyes squinting a little, etc). But yeah with architecture work, using math precision is much easier and preferred cause we need objects to conform to a shape that fits our needs. Humans IRL are a lot more flexible than models though.

Anyway, glad you got your confidence! There's nothing wrong with the direction you're taking and the trade offs you have to do. it's part of the process but the beauty of 3D, like any art is you can do it little by little at a time until you're satisfied. (Oh and as for hair. I found a trick that works is to let the physics droop the hair a little, but you otherwise want to use meshes or hair cards for very stylized hair instead of the hair particles).

Zenobius

4 years, 9 months ago

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@ KaoNocturatzu

You're right, I guess I was just so focused on trying to find a right (ie. logical) way to 'solve' my problems but now I realise what my teachers really 'meant' when they said: "Imperfection creates perfection"

And true, game models look very boring without the correct lighting and setting, I guess this means that I could do more by just sticking to a 'style' and going for it without being too caught up if it 'looks right' because that has been the crux of the matter. The more I try to make my characters 'work' in 3D the more grotesque they tend to look as a result. ^^

And yeah, It made me realise why most hollywood companies opt for 'realistic' designs since it's more easier to try and do things that are actually 'real' than try and create something entirely fictional to work in a 3D space. Makes a lot of sense to me now.

And really, thank you very much. It's thanks to you that I've got this confidence now. I realise that I just need to be confident in myself and try to do the best I can to realise that with 3D art I just need to finetune until I'm satisfied.
So thanks! This really helped me a lot! <3

KaoNocturatzu

4 years, 9 months ago

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@ Zenobius

Yep! Art was never meant to be stressful. It's supposed to be fun and a way to express creativity. We unfortuantely live in a time where critics have a much stronger voice because that's what will help selfish people force the world to conform to thier narrow visions. With everyone being so cynical and sarcastic though, they already hate your work and just want to make a fool out of you. So don't stress yourself for arbitrary perfection. Just do what looks right to you.

and you're right about that. Yes Hollywood and even game developers use realistic graphics because it's easier to get away with using textures to get details and people are more likely to ignore flaws than in cartoony characters (like mine) where you need a lot of extra geometry to keep them smooth. Hence in most games, the simpler characters tend to have a LOT more triangles (like Classic Sonic has a whopping 18,000 while Modern only has 11,000, and Mario rarely goes above 6000 and Link is around 4000). It's a tradeoff between artistic integrity and computational power, but understanding that will help you understand where you should focus harder to make your models as you envision.

Again don't be shy about hitting me up on Discord if you ever want step by step guides and want to learn more about how to use a lot of blender's less obvious features. Making 3D models is a very long journey, probably taking months if not a year or two, but every step should feel like progress or a learning experience.

Zenobius

4 years, 9 months ago

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@ KaoNocturatzu

That's definitely true, I mean- it's good to be more critical of one's self but not at one's own detriment as it's kind of taking you down when there are people like that around yeah. ^^

I've found that Turbosmoothing or polygon/mesh smoothing in general goes a long way with making characters look nicer. Especially easier when you only have just a few polygons to push around whilst the polygon smoothing tool does the rest.

And you're welcome. I really appreciate your help buddy. ;3

Donamer

4 years, 9 months ago

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I think your style works in 3D. I'd certainly be curious to see where you take it.

Zenobius

4 years, 9 months ago

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@ Donamer

Ah thanks a lot Donnie! <3 I'm glad to hear that you like my designs. ^^
I'm trying to make some animations involving Ricky (So expect some animations of giant cute dommy cubbies domming tinies with their footpaws)
Hope to have something I can show. I guess I shouldn't be too critical of myself and just take things step by step.

Thank you very much! ;3