Inkbunny

Exactly! :D

silvernheart

7 years, 5 months ago

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thank you for this.

GraceTheGoldenFurred

7 years, 5 months ago

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You're awesome for posting this. Everyone deserves to be treated with kindness and respect, and it pains me to know that some people, including some very close friends of mine, get treated like dirt for something that they really can't help. So it's really good to know that there are those who do understand.

MistahToonCatUwU

7 years, 5 months ago

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I recognize the third gender pony, the pink one, but who are the rest?

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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Red is agender, yellow is androgyne, green is demigirl, and black hair is genderfluid!
Pretty much all of them have different variations, so it's best to look it up when wondering (i.e: I knew about genderfluid as a gender, but had no idea what the symbol was)

MistahToonCatUwU

7 years, 5 months ago

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...never heard of the rest other than agender, although i thought that was a term

GemGrace

7 years, 5 months ago

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I'm not saying it's a mental illness, and i 100% understand transgenderism and agender, but some of these genders are confusing. Don't get me wrong, if i where to meet someone with one of these other genders i'd be nice and happy and respectful, but i personally think some of these are just nonconformists trying to feel special or different.

What is a demigirl? and isn't andrognye just you're appearance? Just because you're androgynous and people can't make an educated guess on your sex organs, it becomes a new gender all together?

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ GemGrace

Honestly, gender is what you make it. It's what you're comfortable with. It's like everything else about your, but it's not really visible. Some people will change their apparence to match, but it's to everyone's discretion. And to be honest, if people are serious about it, and not making jokes, then their identity is what it is. It doesn't hurt them, and it doesn't hurt others, so there is no reason to makes rules about it :P

Demigirl is someone who identifies partially as a girl, but not entirely. To them (speaking from what I know), being a girl doesn't feel right, but not being a girl doesn't feel right either. A little of it is what they're comfortable with.
Androgyne is also a feeling! I have a friend who identifies androgyne as being their gender, seeing as this is how they're comfortable to give a name to their feeling. They feel like a mix of male and female, as much on a physical level than an emotional one.

MistahToonCatUwU

7 years, 5 months ago

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Wait....why is gender "what people make of it"

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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Because it's a personal experience. No one really lives it the same.

misterlonelyfox

7 years, 5 months ago

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Edited 7 years, 5 months ago by Owner

But then people want to put themselves in boxes and use special labels to demand recognition for a box they put themselves in. I am happy you're not conflating sex with gender but I know too many people in my real life doing this simply because it seems in vogue. Why use a label when humans are far more complex than a string of tags or keywords?

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ misterlonelyfox

Ok, then how do we tell people that we're not men or women when a VERY high percentage of people we meet will decide between one or the other for us, if we don't have a word for it?

misterlonelyfox

7 years, 5 months ago

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Should we make everyone wear name tags with their preferred pronouns and genders. Should culture norms be that you walk up and introduce with name, age (real or other as transage is thing), gender, race (or trans race) and income/ level of privilege. Why would you want yourself devalued to a what rather than a who for the sake of simplicity of identity of demographics you happen to fall under. You are you, a talented artist/illustrator that draws all kinds of sexy peeps, someone that contributes to culture. What you do is far more important to most people than what you are.

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ misterlonelyfox

I'm an artist, yes, but before that I'm a person.
And I'm a person who has to deal with bullshit from people who won't accept that I'm not the gender they think I am, and see it as a personal attack that I'd rather put a label on myself than live my life pretending to be someone I'm not.

All I want is for people to be allowed to be who they are, to label themselves the way they want it, and not be questioned for it. If you don't want to label yourself, great! It's up to you to decide if you're comfortable with it!
But many people like myself find comfort in being able to put a word on the way we feel.

misterlonelyfox

7 years, 5 months ago

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The danger comes from the current issue of in group out group mechanics. I'm sympathetic or even empathic to feeling like you take shit for something that feels right or that you think you have no control over. None of this was an attack on you just on what I think is a bad idea trying to spread itself like an ideology. The attempt was never meant to cause harm to you simply a poor attempt at a counter point it would seem.. A question I would pose. Why did a word give youcomfort about something about yourself?

MistahToonCatUwU

7 years, 5 months ago

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....but...thats not gender at all...is it?

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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It is though.

MistahToonCatUwU

7 years, 5 months ago

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Back from work and mind is open, so lets do this

How is it like that?

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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Edited 11 months, 2 weeks ago by Moderator

again, I'm not a teacher.
But it doesn't seem like you're interested in making your own research, so here is a place to start
https://www.genderspectrum.org/resources [Understanding Gender]

MistahToonCatUwU

7 years, 5 months ago

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Oooh okay it did clear things up

Im more ibterested in gender body classification, but the expression is what people get uppity about when it involves the community in civilization

BreakingCloud

7 years, 5 months ago

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I love learning about this stuff<3 I need to learn and teach myself all these nifty symbols (seriously the genderfluid symbol looks cool as heckie!)

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ BreakingCloud

ikr?? I hadn't seen it before (I knew of the gender and flag, but not the symbol)
I love that there are also variants of it for more specific things depending on which genders it fluctuates between!

QueenKami

7 years, 5 months ago

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This is cute and a nice piece. c:

I do also have to smile at the still acceptance of the male/female. I've got this friend who is all for the rights of other genders and stuff but then if it comes to someone who is "cishet" she goes off the deep end with anger/judgement...and I think that's sorta wrong. I just always felt like it was the same idea of not being able to pick and choose what you are. xox

I've not seen most of these symbols but I like the way they look~

kinshiratsuki

7 years, 5 months ago

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This has so made my night alot better thanks :)

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ kinshiratsuki

Glad I could help!

ArionEquus

7 years, 5 months ago

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Edited 7 years, 5 months ago by Owner

I do like how you didn't bother to give as much time to the regular male and female ones.

But that aside... there is some issue that I believe this doesn't account for, and you can see this in the comments on this submission. And in abundant amounts in the comments on the submission that you are directing this one toward... My comment is more so about the topic than the submission.
Gender dysphoria is actually a mental condition. It's a nasty thing. I've seen it personally in a lot of people because the internet is where people that have it go to vent and either act miserable publicly without shame or attempt to feel better in the comfort of their friends. Because, again, they're normally too ashamed to do it in person with people they know in real life. It drives people into depression, and even to levels of self harm and the harm of others. It's not something you just respect and it gets better... It's a thing where people need help. Either to come to terms with whom they are, or to transition into someone they are comfortable with being. And It needs study. I don't actually know that those two things are solutions. I'm just making guesses. We don't know enough about this disorder because it's disrespectful to actually call it a problem, and study it for solutions...
And, people making up genders and demanding that people respect them is also not helping the issue... They're just being the nonconformist crowd. (Making up some third gender is only something that people whom... Well, I don't even know why someone would do this beyond being a snowflake, or they need some word as a band-aid for their confusion about who they are, but I know that's not the whole reason for everyone. Like I said, this begs for more study. But, back to the topic.) People are not static beings. Everything you do and experience changes who you are. Every single person in everything they do is plotted out on the spectrum from masculine, to feminine. There are only those two. Because there are only two sexes. With everything in between being either genetic defect or caused via artificial means. All third genders are just plots on the graph between masculine and feminine.(The spectrum is nearly infinite, are there infinite genders?) But heaven forbid you point this out because it might offend someone over the fact that gender is on some level tied directly to physiology, whether you like it or not.

And, just in case, lets not touch on gender nonconformity or sexuality. Those are different topics.

Glire

7 years, 5 months ago

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I've always likened gender to colour. There are some fairly deep parallels you can draw between the two.

For example, we acknowledge the existence of both purple and violet, despite the existence of both red and blue.

Purple and violet are actually different colours, even though they're usually treated as the same thing. Violet, true violet, is a specific range of wavelengths, whereas purple is the combination of red and blue.

The important thing to show here is that we treat both of these colours as distinct from red and blue regardless of whether they have red or blue as an actual component. We could, if we wanted, ignore the existence of purple and talk about things only in terms of red and blue, but it would not only destroy nuance and specificity, it would erase violet from the spectrum. (And let's not even get into green right now.)

Sex and gender are enormously complex in how they're used, and it's very difficult, given the state of the art we know in biology, to define sex and gender in binary ways. Furthermore, we are not chained to nature. Nobody clamoured to talk about bronze only in terms of copper and tin; we understood that the alloy we created has different, unique properties that required its own word. Nobody refuses to see purple except in terms of blue and red. There is no reason not to do the same with gender. I don't see what the "defective" or "artificial" nature of these conditions has to do with anything (and I would disagree that "defective" is a label we should apply to intersex people, who are at best tangential to this discussion and at worst a political football to kick around, so let's not go down that route). We exist; we should acknowledge that we exist in our language.

Beyond that, show me the biological basis of skirt-wearing. Of the colour pink. Of politeness and emotional range. Of any of the myriad things that we gender on a daily basis. There is no such basis; we say these things are gendered because we stereotype people who look a certain way to have a certain range of actions, and define exceptions as aberrant. It's a choice that to many of us is completely subconscious and automatic, but it is a choice, and we can choose to do something else.

I would like to point out that these arguments you've forwarded aren't new or original nor are they any more effective than they were the first dozen times we heard it. The "offense" you might see at hearing them is the result of having to litigate our own existence, not only with multiple people, but in the same way, Groundhog Day-style, and rarely having the chance to move beyond an exceedingly basic lesson about what gender is. Trust me, you'd be offended too if the popular opinion about some part of your identity was that it didn't exist, and you had to spend a truly shocking amount of your time explaining it to people.

Your position requires an understanding of sixth grade biology. Ours requires a university-level understanding of biology. Guess which one represents reality better.

In short, we're ready to move on from this. We want to be done with this argument. We're just waiting for knowledge to propagate, which is, well, why I'm writing this instead of writing you off.

Look, I'm genderfluid, which is not only not male or female but not even any one thing, I'm all over the place. Drop me a private message if you care to learn something about how we "confused" people live. I'll see what I can do.

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ Glire

"	In short, we're ready to move on from this. We want to be done with this argument.

Thisssssss
I suck at explaining with words, so I do pictures, and it all feels so simple to me!
I'll never understand why it offends people that we just want to be allowed to live. Taking our side only makes happy people, and takes away from no one.
We don't WANT to fight for those rights, but we don't have a choice.

ArionEquus

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ Glire

Ok, lets liken this to color. This is almost the same thing as someone whom is unhappy with how ethnic races defines them. So, they make up a new race around their own skin, hair, and eyes. As a person. You're fully entitled to believe and think this. Even to express it openly to others. But expecting recognition from others and the system is unrealistic. The problem is not that people use third genders to define themselves. It's that they try to force other people to refer to them as third genders.

And, I had much more typed out but for some reason the page refreshed an I lost it. So I can't be bothered to redo it all... just one thing.

Men liking skirts and the color pink has nothing to do with gender as defined. It's simply gender nonconformity. Which I already said has no place in this conversation. It has nothing to do with any third genders and not really not much to do with the person's gender whom is wearing the skirt, either. That's just a perceived stereotype. I literally said not to bring this up...

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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Ok but you're a potato. You won't force me to refer to you as anything but that bc obviously I, a person who is not you, gets to decide for you.
You're a potato and you don't get a say over it.

ArionEquus

7 years, 5 months ago

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Ok, It doesn't really matter to me how you think of me. Such things are irreverent.

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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No i mean like, You're a potato. That's what you are. You don't get to tell other people who you are.

Glire

7 years, 5 months ago

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You... realize that was a metaphor, correct? I'm not actually talking about ethnicity when I talk about colour?

"Let's talk about colour" doesn't actually address anything I said in my analogy. We're not talking about colour, as in red and blue; we're talking about colour, as in black and brown. It was an interesting rhetorical move to dismiss my entire analogy under the guise of discussing it, but unfortunately, we're in a textual environment where anyone can look slightly above your words and see that you're just straight-up refusing to talk about the same thing I'm talking about. It's not a good look.

Any argument should, ideally, be able to move from mutually-agreed-upon first principles using ironclad logic to an inescapable conclusion. I showed how social constructions work by talking about colour, because there's a point to be made about the words we use for a concept versus the actual raw data of that concept, and then applying that point to gender. Race cannot be used in a similar way, because race is not only biosocial but inherited, constructed using such concepts as the One Drop Rule (as odious as that rule is, it is part of the history of race and its legacy is still felt in contemporary discussions of ethnicity and racial identity). You do not inherit your parents' genders. you do inherit their ethnicity. Therefore, I'm sorry, race is irrelevant to this discussion and you just wasted a paragraph bringing it up.

In design, there is such a thing as a design language, which is a series of decisions that are intended to convey an idea. Google's material design has a language built around cards, and physical metaphors are intended to show priority: A higher card has a shadow over a lower card, which puts it more "in front", and therefore makes it more prominent and gives it a higher priority.

Gendered presentation is also a design language. The colour pink, the skirt, and so on, these are designed to convey information about the gender and personality of the person associated with it, regardless of whether we think they should or not. I don't particularly consider this to be an ideal situation, but I also don't deny that it exists, and that's the important thing here: Gender, all of gender, includes the things you would rather sweep under the rug. Without this as a starting point, it's impossible to move forward, because we are working from two different sets of first principles, which means our arguments don't actually exist in the same universe of mutually-agreed-upon facts.

There is no definition of gender at the moment, if we don't agree on one (which is why I don't attempt to define gender, except to say that it's not biological — a strict definition of gender isn't actually necessary for my argument to work). It's also not a good look to assert that your definition is not only true, but to further assert my position is incorrect based on the assertion that your definition is true. Your idea of what gender is does not survive contact with reality, which doesn't have the rough edges sanded off. At the very least, my argument can be said to attempt to explain and account for those rough edges; yours literally asserts they either don't exist or don't count.

You remember when I said I've had this argument before? It means I already know how to counter these arguments, because I've heard them all before, yes, including the racial analogy. I know how to argue such that it actually means something to people who may not understand how a concept that is largely invisible to them actually works. I've had far more practice at this than you have, and I also have the advantage of being correct and more knowledgeable.

You can learn something, or you can stick your head in the sand while the world moves on without you. The choice is entirely up to you.

Saucy

7 years, 5 months ago

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@ Glire

You're so good at this thank you so much aaaaa
[seriously I'm so grateful]

Glire

7 years, 5 months ago

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