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Blackraven2

The problem with multiverses and why we might all be immortal.

I assume everyone is familiar with the multiverse theory. How every random quantum event, every decision, every moment, creates a bifurcation in the time-space continuum - one in which the event happened, and one in which it didn't.

It provides an easy solution to problems such as Schroedingers cat. While the box is closed, there's an overlapping quantum state, in which the cat is both alive and dead. But the moment you open it, there'd simply be a bifurcation. In half of all infinitely many universes in which the box was opened at that moment, the cat would be alive, in the other half it would be long dead.

You can already guess how this could lead to immortality. Obviously, as long as there's any chance, no matter how unlikely it is, that the cat might be alive, there would also be some multiverses in which it actually is.

But of course there's also infinitely many in which it isn't. So YOU might as well be in one where it's dead. Another YOU would be in one where its alive, but that doesn't help you. You have no way of resurrecting the cat.

However, this is suddenly different if you are the cat. Because the cat - or rather the cat's consciousness that can perceive time and space - exists ONLY in those universes, where the cat is alive - at least beyond the moment it was killed.

This eliminates every universe that the cat died in from the cat's timeline.

For you, the same is true. By the time you are reading these lines, there has been near infinitely many bifurcations of your existence, but in all of those where you ceased to exist (or never existed in the first place) - you would obviously never read these lines.

This includes very very VERY unlikely chain of events. You can tell that the likelyhood of our universe forming with the right parameters, the unevenness between matter and antimatter, our galaxy being undisturbed by mayor calamity's such as gamma-ray-bursts for long enough, our planet forming around the right type of star in the right distance, which a series of catastrophes that both formed a stabilizing moon and made the conditions for development of life right (late heavy bombardment and such) all the way down to humans and furries evolving and YOU actually being born -- is NOT particularly high.

But since you do exist, you limit the number of infinitely many possibilities down to still infinitely many possibilities where you exist.

This continues to be the case.

In some universes, in 3 seconds you will spontaneously die:

3.

2.

1.

click!

Still here? Well, lucky! You happen to be in a multiverse where you didn't die. Granted, the likelihood of spontaneous death wasn't too great, but it was higher than zero. In some universes you just got snuffed - but - by definition - you are not in these universes at this point in time.

But the same logic can of course be applied to any existentially threatening event. Including those with a relatively high risk of not making it out alive.

What if you are terminally ill, and nothing in the world can save you? Or you just jumped off the cliff into a Volcano (or were thrown) and you see your life flashing in front of your eyes. Will you end?

Well obviously you will end, in the vast majority of multiverses, but in those you will not be able to remember it later. There is no continuity. So the ones that actually matter are the ones where there IS continuity and you somehow get to tell the tale (at least to yourself)

Now the issue here is probabilities. The probability of being saved by a random large scale quantum event  and teleporting to a safe space, or against all odds surviving complete physical annihilation is just so low, that it's extremely unlikely for you to end up in that. This wouldn't matter, if that's the only possibility (cause then the universe would force you to that solution) but there are other, unlikely, but more likely outcomes that offer continuity.

An example:

1. You suddenly wake up in your bed and it was just a dream.  (Isn't that a convenient one? Who hasn't taken that route at least once already?  Cheater!!!)

2. You get reborn and remember your previous life. This, too offers continuity. It's pretty unlikely  - I mean physically a brain needs to form but somehow has the entirety - or at least some of - the memories of someone else that lived earlier -- but it's apparently likely enough on a cosmic scale, that with 8 Billion Humans on the planet, at any time you find at least a handful who claim to remember their past incarnations.

3. Other paranormal solutions. You could of course just wake up in some sort of afterlife that is elsewhere. Or everything turns out having been a simulation, or similar.

What can be ruled out is that you wake up in a universe where you don't exist, because, well... you don't wake up in any of those.

Now its important to keep in mind, this effect - if it's real - only protects your continuity, not that of anyone around you. Your loved ones can and will still die based on the likelihood of this happening in almost all timelines, and you can expect to end up in one of the more likely ones.

You could try something crazy, like - for example - trying to kill yourself whenever your loved ones die. Wouldn't that link your fate to theirs and put you always in a timeline where they survived too?

Sadly not. You might as well end up in one where you survived your suicide attempt as drooling vegetable and spend the rest of your - possibly eternal - life wishing you hadn't done that.  Or you just end up in an afterlife -- alone...

Now the tricky question is -- can you rely on that?

Sadly not. All this effect guarantees is some sort of continuity. But it does not guarantee sanity or any quality of life. If in a timeline you live to 250, you might have so severe Alzheimer and dementia that you don't even remember who you are.

And also, this whole thought experiment revolves on the existence of alternate timelines and multiverses.
They are a convenient "cheat" to explain some quantum physical phenomenon, but they might not actually exist. There IS the odd chance that our timeline, our universe is in fact the only one, and/or there are no bifurcations that link ours with any other potential reality.

So don't make any silly practical experiments to put this to the test quite yet. After all, we all are gonna test this theory eventually, which is IMHO more than soon enough.
Viewed: 56 times
Added: 1 year, 11 months ago
 
mouse24
1 year, 11 months ago
Alan Wake had bit about this.
XPAuthor
1 year, 11 months ago
Life is a simulated illusion anyway. We are all the dream of someone else.
It is as impossible to prove and disprove as the multiverse, so I'm sticking with that.
Blackraven2
1 year, 11 months ago
But what's the dreamers dayjob when they wake up?
XPAuthor
1 year, 11 months ago
Probably something mundane, like fast food, thus why they dream in such vivid and insane ways.
That, or it's some unknowable creature behind the comprehension of our tiny illusionary brains, and the concept of a 'dayjob' is just as strange to them as they are to us. Dreams seldom make sense, after all.
Streifirabbit
4 months, 3 weeks ago
Maybe it's Azathoth, also known as The Blind Idiot God, The Daemon Sultan, and The Nuclear Chaos in H.P. Lovecrafts Pantheon of cosmic horrors. They dream reality into existence, but can't comprehend its nature, therefore the title as a "blind, idiot god". They are the highest of gods in the mythos, existing beyond the concepts of spatio-temporal dimensions, duality, time, biology, physics, mathematics, gender, durability, speed, strength, mortals, and the Outer Gods, as they are all merely part of their dream, although ruling over them. They are far removed from the reality they created, yet being a part of it themself (probably as a dream-avatar). They're constantly lulled into sleep by a lullaby consistent of the constant sound of pipes and drums by eldritch beings that try to keep the dream alive by keeping the dreamer asleep.

Their true goal, intentions and motivations are as unknowable to mortals, as the dreamworld they conjured up is to them. They simply are and so are we.

Hopefully nobody and nothing will ever wake them up...
Blackraven2
4 months, 3 weeks ago
wait, so - to get this right - this being deamed the whole universe - including all its gods - then dreams itself in it as a dream avatar, where it dreams that other godly beings keep it constantly asleep in their own dream - so they basically dream of sleeping ... as the being effectively controls the dream its their own will to be left asleep even in their dream...

how sleep depraved do you need to be to dream yourself a whole universe just to have a place where you can have a good nights rest - complete with godly beings playing you constant lullabies ... ;)
Streifirabbit
4 months, 3 weeks ago
Well, it's location is stated to be both, outside the universe/reality, as well as the center of all reality (therefore "nuclear chaos", from "nucleus", as the center point). It would be paradoxical to exist both inside and outside of a dream, unless the dream might be experienced from the viewpoint of an avatar.

Like, sometimes I dream up random scenes I perceive as a disembodied watcher who doesn't get involved at all, watching everything unfold behind a fourth wall, the fourth wall of sleep basically, and sometimes I dream I exist as either me or as someone else who got an identity and who interacts with the world.

In Azathoth's case they might have manifested an avatar for themself, but the avatar is either subdued by denizens of their own dream, or by outside forces influencing the dream.

As to "will", it is to my understanding, that in Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos Azathoth doesn't really have a will or it's will would be unknowable. There is no intention behind the dream, otherwise Azathoth would probably be dreaming about something they could comprehend. But Azathoth is as confused about our reality as we would be upon encountering them.

So, to me it doesn't sound like a lucid dream. Azathoth isn't aware of themself being sleeping and dreaming, they simply do. That's also why I find it hard to agree that Azathoth is supposed to be an antagonist or villain on a cosmic scale. The argument goes that they are directly responsible for anything bad that happens. But then again, they're also responsible for anything good that happens. Also they appear not to show any kind of favoritism for any side and, if truely unconscious, couldn't make any willful decisions at all. Hardly qualifies as a villain to me. Maybe an accidentally harmful thing, but mostly indifferent, rather than actively malicious.

( https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Azathoth )

Azathoth strikes me as the kind of reality warper (only more cosmic and more powerful) as the Beholders are in Dungeons and Dragons. Beholders can affect their surroundings in their dreams. If they happen to dream about themselves, they may even affect themselves, turning themself into something else while dreaming it into being. The only downside would be, that the Beholders are still supposed to be physical beings and may dream about turning into an inanimate object before becoming just that. Given, that's rather unlikely to happen in a campaign, but it's possible. Azathoth on the other hand could dream about turning into an inanimate object, becoming just that inside their dreamworld, while their true, outside self would remain unaffected.

There's also the second season of "Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency", where the wishful thinking and frantic dreams of a distressed, small boy, desperately trying to escape into his dream world, accidentally created a parallel universe that came back to haunt the protagonists of the show. Eventually it turned out, that this other universe, despite conceived and created by the mind of a small child, is no less real than Earth's universe and would continue to exist on its own, even if cut off from the mind of said boy (which doesn't happen).

Yet another, even more fitting example is "Rarg", ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGIG-Sq5-c ) which is a childrens cartoon about a dreamworld dreamed up by a regular guy. The denizens of said world react in terror when finding out that they're just figments of a dream and the dreamer is about to be woken up by his alarm clock. They have to come up with a solution and do so fast. And they do, the solution is metaphysical and surreal and maybe a good example to what happened to Azathoth in the Cthulhu mythos.
Streifirabbit
4 months, 3 weeks ago
I guess a universe that would allow for immortality to exist as a possible end-point for the mental exercise of collapsing all probable realities where you'd die at some point would have to have quite different laws of physics. In our universe nobody (we know of) ever lived beyond a certain age and although some animals and plants might live longer than humans, no organism has been seen to be truely immortal, not even the infamous "immortal jellyfish" that cheats death by reverting back to an early stage by utilizing its own stem-cells. Even this jellyfish may die due to polution or predators or something in the end.

So for immortality to be effective, there would have to be a certain type of universe, where not only the body wouldn't fall victim to degenerative diseases or conditions, but also where external harm could be avoided in 100% of all cases. Physical lifeforms who have evolved to hunt and/or eat each others are bad candidates for such a type of immortality. Therefore, in universes as similar as ours the probability to die eventually might always end up at 100%, as time progresses.

But even in hypothetical universes, where life never created predators or parasites and where life would be harmonious and of a symbiotic relationship to other lifeforms sharing the same world, their fate similarly would be fatal in the end, even if they could preserve their consciousness in some form of hive-mind state, since their sun would eventually run out of fuel like ours will do some day in the distant future and then it's over for them (unless they manage to leave their homeworld). But much, much later their universe might end in a similar way as ours might end, making true immortality in the sense of being "eternal" an unachievable goal.

Only a reality that was perfectly balanced and self-sustaining, so it would never collapse or rip itself apart might be suitable for true immortality. But then again, physical bodies require sustenance to function, so truely immortal life might function best as some kind of self-sustaining energy pattern in said universe. At least, that's how I'd imagine it.

As for us "mere mortals" however, yes, we may survive accidents or diseases or other incidents, but only for so long. Even, if every plank-time unit a countless amount of new quantum realities budding of the main timeline, eventually our individual chance to survive would become smaller and smaller in all of them. Not equally of course, but eventually we'd run out of "luck". Otherwise we may have heard about someone who truely outlived "them all". Because in an almost infinite number of realities with an even higher almost infinite number of people who live and cheat death by being alive in some other reality, at least some of them (if not most of them) would have ended up in the reality/realities we're consciously aware off as similar people who cheat death in a similar fashion, but yet, there hasn't been a true Methuselah or Highlander that we're aware off.

So I'd say our chances to live forever or to survive an emergency, even if our consciousness, upon death, only retreats to realities our body is still alive in, would eventually end up becoming 0%. Eventually our consciousness would run out of places to run to.

The movie "The One" from 2001 kinda utilized this idea. In the movie, the power (metaphysical strength) of a person would be shared by all their variants in other universes. So one guy hellbent to dominate his home reality started to hunt down his other variants in order to kill them and absorb their power. This went on long enough until only two of him were left, himself and the main protagonist of the movie, who were equal in strength, so they had to battle it out. Although the movie didn't touch on immortality as a subject, it at least touched on the idea of some form of bonding force, that connected all versions on the same person (or entity) with each other throughout the multiverse.
Blackraven2
4 months, 3 weeks ago
Well, as I wrote the only collapsing is towards some form of continuity. This does not require the body to be physically intact or even the mind to be intact. You could wake up 300 years later when someone dug your brain out of a mummy and decided "hey, let's simulate that in our new supercomputer and see what went through his mind as they died".

Also if multiverses branch, some branches might be dead ends. You could be unlucky and end up in a dead end. Some other reality your great grandparents went on an intergalactic voyage long before you were even born, but in this reality you are still living on your home-planet. Just before your sun goes supernova.

The fun thing is the math of probabilities. No probability in the future is ever completely 0 nor completely 100%. Thanks to quantum physics, not even the past, nor the present is ever 100% certain.

That being said, if the probability of you surviving is less than 1 in 10 to the power of 100 in your universe - it really would kinda need some godly intervention to safe you. And at that rate it is just too unlikely you'd ever "witness" that happening to anyone else. The only way to see such a rare event is to force it - by getting into a situation where continuity is so remotely unlikely. And then hope for a miracle ;)

But as I said, that miracle might be a dead end. Imagine, you jump into a star. Just before you evaporate, a deity intervenes safes you by bringing you to an alternate reality, only to tell you "what you did there was really really stupid" - and then erases you and that entire pocket universe from existence - or puts it into an eternal endless loop.

Streifirabbit
4 months, 3 weeks ago
I see. The likelyhood of this continuity to happen might be rather small and would only get smaller from there. Being alive, or at least being consciously aware is just a very specific state of existence, or requires matter to be arranged in such a precise way for the consciousness to continue existing, versus all other, less preferable states that wouldn't be beneficial for the consciousness. Then again, if there was a truely infinite multiverse out there, containing an infinite (or exponentially growing) number of universes of all probable states, a bit like the Vulcan philosophy in Star Trek, IDIC (infinite diversity in infinite combinations), then there still would be a slim chance for some kind of continuation. But the numbers are stacked so high against you, that you'd rather win the lottery, multiple times, while sitting on the john, while a lightning strucks you as you do your business, for the second time in the same place, during a clear sky, rather than ending up in said reality. I guess unless you're already there and just remember the improbable events leading you to end up there, there would be a slim chance to end up there at all.

Yeah, that's the problem with a branching out universe. Many dead ends, way more dead ends than the preferable outcome, because there are just so much more options for not being alive than there are for being alive.

True, but there is a fundamental problem, even before applying math to it. We aren't sure if there really is a multiverse containing us or if random events branch out to realize all probabilities at once, and even if there's a multiverse, we wouldn't know if it was truely infinite or contained an infinite amount of universes. There would also be the possibility, that all the universes were exactly the same, or maybe would just differ ever so slightly, where just a random subatomic particle in the incredible lifespan of each universe would spin in the wrong direction or on the wrong axis. We would first have to make sure that everything that might happen, no matter how improbable it would be, inevitably will happen. Only then could we assume, that there would be a chance to live forever in some shape or form, statistically speaking.

Kinda reminds me of the mindset I once had, that I always get disappointed in the end, and I'd expect to die at some point in my life. Since I always get disappointed, my expectation to die would never come to pass, therefore, I'd be an immortal. Might check out statistically, if I really always get disappointed, and really expect something bad to happen, as if it was a positive thing, but still, reality doesn't operate like this, things just don't happen because people expect or don't expect them to happen. If I pick up a pebble and let it go, I may expect it flying into the sky, or for it to fall to the ground. One of those options is more likely to happen than the other, no matter how or what I'd expect in the end.

I fear that all routes might be dead ends in the end.Unless your consciousness in the moment you expire would merge with the consciousness of the survivor, in which case all of us would only ever experience our own immortality as the first evidence of immortality happening to a human. We simply wouldn't know about the countless realities we didn't make it in, unless you'd count deja vu as a memory of another, parallel life that still lingers in the subconsciousness somewhere and occasionally gets triggered once you get into a situation or a place that you have been in in another life/reality.
Blackraven2
4 months, 1 week ago
Exactly that.

Any universe you die in, you no longer exist to remember it. Following René Descartes "cogito ergo sum" negated - if you can not think, not only do you not exist (and the other way around) - for you also that particular universe/reality ceases to exist - as you can't perceive it (anymore). This limits the number of existing universes (for you) to those in which you exist in a form capable enough to be aware of your existence. That limit has no effect on the realities others perceive of course.

You can only ever experience those realities in which you have not died yet ;)
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