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HowlEchoes

Empathy and Ethics

Just some thoughts that I wanted to share to see if there's potentially good points to be heard that I don't hear from people I know...

Empathy:
Empathy isn't a form of moral knowledge. It's not even necessarily a way to acquire moral knowledge. Empathy is  merely the act of an agent abstractly simulating the feelings of an experience that another agent had based on their limited understanding. You don't *know* what someone else felt just because you can consider it. In fact, you don't *know* what someone else felt even if you went through something very similar. The problem is that:
1. You don't know what's going on in someone else's head even if we humans have many similarities
2. No matter how similar you think an experience is to another, the two are still, in fact, different experiences. They happened at different times, in different places, and the individuals involved were not the same.
This isn't to say that empathy is unimportant. I think it's important in pushing people to treat each other better. My point is merely that it is not a way of knowing or type of knowledge. It can only potentially push one to pursue moral understanding and it isn't even necessarily the only thing that can do that.

Ethics: (I'm going to ignore religion in this not because of controversy but because I think that the things unique to religion, i.e. the supernatural aspect, hold no value in these discussions)

Ethics and morality are two things that kind of bug me to hear people talk about because I think most people don't really think about either much but still act self righteious about it. I think most people view themselves as morally good but I see most people as likely ultimately morally grey. If we could qualitatively assess the consequences of any one person's actions over their life as a rational agent, it becomes clear that this calculation is essentially impossible to do. It also doesn't help that humans are absolutely not objective when it comes to self assessment. If you combine that with the fact that the desire to do good =/= doing good, you find that moral assessments scale incredibly poorly.
Another problem is that a lot of people have this idea that, to be moral, you must follow the crowd and do whatever everyone else in your society is doing. This just makes morality a power game where the majority are mostly gonna cater to themselves. This may be how ethics have always worked and will probably always work (consensus) but conformity is an oppressive grounding for any moral conception (this is made clear just by looking at how the LGBTQ+ community has been treated throughout history). So while you need consensus for any moral framework to work, conformity should not be the basis for the moral framework itself.

This all being said, I think having a good idea of why you hold your moral positions is important because morality has to do with how agents interact. I just think that most people don't know why they hold certain moral positions and just trust their gut or society because they're either disinterested, stupid and arrogant, or intellectually lazy.
Viewed: 207 times
Added: 3 years, 3 months ago
 
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
I think you be surprised about how tolerant people have been about same sex relations over the past 3000 years. Many cultures have had no problem with it. And in the christian world it has only been so much a sore spot in the last 250 years or so. There are a couple of good books on this subject.

As for ethics and morality i agree with with what you have said so far. I am a Taoist and have a different view of things slightly. People do view what they do as a good in a general way. For example every one driving slower than themselves is getting in the way. And everyone driving faster than themselves is a maniac.  

Absent a higher source of rules i.e. a god figure, notions of "good" and "evil" have no place. I strive to not judge things as good or bad in life. I strive for understanding. I do not believe in a concrete good and evil. All morals and ethics derive from opinion and perception. They are transitory in many cases and are therefore absolutely grey.

It is interesting how crowd dynamics effect personal action. I believe that a crowd influence plays a minor part in ethics in many situations.  Consider the bystander effect which says the response of individuals to an emergency is inversely proportional to the number of people present.   What does this mean? We tend to limit our action in large crowds. our personal moral/ethics are not changed tho we sometimes do not express them.  We do tend to subjugate our morals and ethics in the face of groups.  

So what makes our desire for group harmony more important than standing up for what we believe in? And where does this desire come from?

The bigger problem is the breakdown/ lack of willingness to explore the various morals/ethics that are present. By not discussing things and having open civilized debate well things gonna fall apart eventually. Which is indeed what is happening.

It is sad to see so many just expressing their emotions without any significant analysis. Particularly of the things that get us emotional in the first place.
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
Well said. And I'll have to look more into sexual tolerance in history.

I lean towards moral antirealism so I don't believe in moral facts that exist independent of the agents involved. This leads me to strive for understanding as well. I tend to disregard notions of God because I don't see that a god adds anything substantive to the discussion other than a hypothetical dictator-like pressure.

The bystander effect is an interesting point to bring up and on that my suspicion is that the hierarchy of values in a humans mind is not fixed and varies based on need, desire, and opportunity. And those values aren't always concrete. That combined with the fact that it's easier to ignore accountability in a crowd makes it easy for us to disregard our own integrity temporarily. But this is just one potential explanation of many.

Overall, big agree. To me, morality is like politics. It's a constant discussion. An uwillingness to have discussions is antithetical to moral progress.
Tyurianwhatlol
3 years, 3 months ago
Sexual tolerance in history should be studied from primary sources. I have come across many attempts to suggest that other societies were always tolerant, simply because they were tolerant at one point. But suggesting they were always tolerant is as ridiculous as suggesting Western society is as it was in 1250 AD.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
O.o nothing is ever always anything. The one sure thing about history is that societies always change rising and falling.  However a few of these books have drawn from primary sources, including court records and written works of the time.

Of course the substantiating evidence is less and less voluminous the  further back in time you go, that is only to be expected.

What is clear to me is attitudes about homosexuality in the world today, very much developed in the last couple centuries. And we can thank the Christian religious system for that. Their history is riddled with ridiculous sexual viewpoints.

But i am not trying to convince anyone. I am saying there are well researched books out there that dispute the notion that gay relationships have always been persecuted.

Your choice if you want to challenge your current viewpoint with possibly other or different sources.  

As far as history is concerned, its always best to read as many sources as one can, to try to help negate any possible bias by any particular historical account.
Tyurianwhatlol
3 years, 3 months ago
All I'll say is that the best lies are half-true, and everyone has an agenda, and if not that then unforeseen biases that one cannot trust. I cannot tell you how often experts "think" something then say it as fact, or unknowingly assert modernity onto people that cannot possibly be compared. They are arrogant, and wonder why the laymen don't trust them, the laymen being arrogant themselves in a different way.
For instance, instead of trying to reason as to why Abrahamic religions have such ideas about sexuality, you hand-wave it as "ridiculous". Maybe it is, but you should know that nothing important is done out of ignorance, and I am not the first person who has said that, nor will I be the last.
Tyurianwhatlol
3 years, 3 months ago
*Not trying to be rude, by the way, even if I may come off that way.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
well as an unconventional sexual proponent i am obviously predisposed to seeing restrictive practices as silly and unnecessary. However i think that, after going over the various changes in thought over the centuries, certain things stand out as wacky.

For instance at one point Christians were so uptight about things that even having sex with your wife too many times was viewed with suspicion. Not to mention the Victorian era preoccupation with quashing teen/preteen masturbation.  Including such things as straight jackets and castration. Honestly the history of human sexual practices is very interesting.

In the roman era there are stories of a Temple where men and women had sex with goats as a fertility rite to a certain god. Now was that true? no one can be for sure certain. *Shrugs*


What strikes me as the most honest about things is that people were compelled to write about things. That is an indication that practices happened that they either supported or were against.  No one is really moved to write about things they don't care about. So we can take away some information from the very fact that certain accounts exist.

and no i did not take you as rude, maybe a little peeved, over what i am not sure.  
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Feels like this needs to be written a bit cleaner with a bit of a different title.

Moralities are Ethics are similiar but not the same. Not really understanding the point of empathy in this journal other then possibly a lead in to morality / ethnics.

Most morality systems are acquired usually from parents or surrounding community at a very early age. Because it was done at a such a young age most people don't really question it or understand it.

Most morality systems are based on some form of religion. Ignoring it because of "supernatural" reasons is silly. You can totally talk about religion without the "supernatural" part but it's as required as a part of understanding the basis.

Even if there is a no religion, no society, no parents argument.. a person can still decide on a morality for themselves. People can go against the norm. People can decide to have no morality system for themselves which kinda is one in a way. People in general are weak and cowardly and avoid conflict so they usually go with group think.

Ethnics is similar yet different. Ethnics are suppose to be like another system where morality has "failed" in other people's views, yet this system is just as bad and kinda acts like a more open, looser morality system that is permitted under the law and so people default to this because it's... easier. Easier as in it's actually pretty much written down with different scenarios to tell you what you can, can't and should, shouldn't do to make people feel better for themselves. This overall requires less effort and thinking.

Likewise both moral systems and ethnics systems can clash with each other along with moral / ethnic systems from multiple groups of people.

IDK... Maybe I'm missing the whole point of this journal.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
i think that the point of disregarding morality from a religion is important.  I think that we can concede that IF there is a god in charge then his views are not open to interpretation, which would also mean discussion is meaningless. However since we have no proof of this source yet, divorcing ourselves of that being in considering the nature of things, allows the conversation occur.

Having to find reasons to support a viewpoint that is outside of "cause god said" means that we are allowed to follow paths no matter where they lead.  Being open and willing to explore the nature of things in the absence of a moral authority allows for various theories and ideas to flourish.  

and i will admit that if god is proven to be then his view is what matters. Until then his view is irrelevant, ours is cause we do exist. (avoiding  the many years of philosophers discussions on how we can prove existence. I am sticking to I think therefor i am .)

what is more important is what it says about humans who are willing to accept morality from an outside dominant force. Which is what religions supply, whether or not the god behind the moral  authority exists. but mainly the argument now is people believe things written by other men never questioning it because it is supposedly coming from a god.

The problem just intensifies... without a central authority that is removed from the humans practicing it. No real conversation on the nature of such can exist without acknowledgement of source. Which for religious people comes from a god not other people.
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
I actually wouldn't concede that a God's existence would make discussion meaningless. If a god exists and sets moral commandments but doesn't force us to adhere to them then there's still a place for humans to decide whether or not they want to listen to that god. God doesn't solve anything if we have the ability to not do what he says. Our choices are then either to obey out of fear or blind trust or to not listen to god and come up with ethical systems on our own. We don't necessarily have a way to know that a god is all good. Of course a god is going to view itself as the good guy but is it actually? If god literally defines good and evil at his whim and is highly incomprehensible to us then we can have no reliable basis to trust anything he says other than fear.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
Well i do hear what you are saying . Let me respond with a few things.  If we use the most extreme of the god beliefs that he is all powerful and all knowing.  What can we say about the nature of such a being? If we set to two givens up as a math proof we can see that his powers cannot conflict. So can such a god create a rock bigger than he can move ? no he cannot, that would invalidate the proof.

Secondly could an all knowing god give us the ability to choose such as free will which so many believe?  Again no he cannot. In order to give us free will and still be all knowing he would have to exceed his own powers or give them up.  IF an all knowing god exists there is no way for you to choose a path that would he would not know you would choose. There is no way to surprise such a being. Even if you did not know your outcome he would and this does not equate to free agency.

I agree that we have no way of knowing if a god is "Good" as you put it. But since i think we may agree that such things are determined, in many ways by power. Then an all powerful god is good.   I have always hated the phrase "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"  It is a horrible statement for several reasons. One it implies a moral judgement about the nature of such power. Two it is a view about man's desire to acquire power. The phrase would be better said as The pursuit of power can corrupt.   An all powerful god would have no equal and therefore no one to judge him/her. Can a being who created you be said to give you anything but a good morality when held up to his whims? Could a creator such as this be denied from laying the law of right and wrong?  Could he in fact escape it by giving you free agency?  Not unless he were to destroy his own power.

Many of the reasons religious people follow what they believe to be their gods words is they believe he is infallible and has the power.

In considering a god with not so extreme powers, the conversation is open yes. to an extent. We all know that a certain power base will effect morality. Its as simple as being born and raised and taught things by whoever controls the particular area you live in. We are not born knowing our gods will we must learn that from others, whose knowledge or motivations may not be so stellar.

But, now here is the rub, man whatever else he may be is mortal and more importantly reachable. There is a limit to his power to influence morality. A god figure is not, so even if there is free choice there is always a reckoning for ones choices. And in the case of a god it is universally assumed you must accept his/her judgment. Whereas with a man you don't.  

I just feel that allowing such preconceived notions into a  philosophical discussion on things, diverts from the truth. When the source of the truth may or may not be.
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
It's interesting that you say that a god with no equal would have no one to judge because we can judge that god. It may mean nothing to that god but we can do it. But that's a semantic thing I think. To me the problem is that if morality is essentially just God's opinion then morality simply becomes blindly following that God's whims. Even if we have free will we would feel compelled to follow this God's whims if we're just to take that this god is the author of morality. To what end is the free will? I think I'm just getting into my grievances about the nature of God though. To me it makes no sense that an all powerful and all knowing god would be compelled to do anything. An all powerful but not all knowing god might create something with the intent to acquire knowledge but this seems to imply god has intention which is typically associated with emotions. What is an emotion to a god? To me it isn't clear that emotions are something "supernatural" in any way. Also this implies god can learn which means it has some sort of concept of time. But being all powerful the god should be able to learn instantly and just become the all knowing god as well.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
yes we certainly could judge that god if he were not all powerful and had given us the free will to do so . That is what i am saying. Its all a sliding scale at what point is it even real? AT the far end the all powerful god could create us to judge his moral center. however that would be just him playing with himself.  As we slide down the scale at what point is a god a god and still subject to man's interpretation of his views? But reducing god to that point is he a god or just a being with a little more power?

In the end talking to religious people about morality just tends not to go anywhere in my experience. And most of them cannot allow themselves to go down paths that may result in a contradiction for them. Or heaven forbid the chance to repudiate the world as they know it.

*shrugs*
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
Gotcha!

And yup. I can't really have a conversation about morality with someone who's entire morality is grounded in a god we can't clearly communicate with or confirm exists. And said god allegedly commands them to follow his will anyway for whatever reason. It really does just shut down discussion about moral progress in the real world and makes it about interpreting God's will. As far as we can tell that would just amount to speculation about a hypothetical entity's role in reality and is akin to fan fiction.
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
This is a bit more interesting but again. If no religion, no god, no society, no parents, no community then there is either no moral system or a moral system of your own creation.

If there is no religion, no god but other people to interact with... society, parents, communities then morals are developed to reflect that society based on common behaviors which then get passed down and around thru ideas.. memes, mores and kinda just codified. Possibly with some things effecting genetics.
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
I like that you bring up the idea of morality with no social or supernatural elements because I find it a bit peculiar in that scenario.
If an individual has nobody to be accountable to in their actions, do they have a morality? Well in that case it would seem that all of that agents decisions would likely be influenced by a desire to maximize pleasure and minimize suffering for itself. You could call that an individual moral system where the grounding is entirely self serving. But isn't that strange? When two agents interact it's no longer about what a concrete individual wants but what some abstract composite entity wants. This entity is comprised of the collective minds of the two agents. And you could say the new moral system is about maximizing that entity's pleasures and minimizing it's pain. But as you increase agents, things become very complex and abstract (you have conflicting desires and cases where pain is preferable to pleasure like when you get a flu shot). So what is the nature of morality?
Sorry I'm just kinda thinking out loud.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
but you are correct about the nature of the system. morality is different for every agent and only the risk rewards system really determines what values are adopted by the whole.  We usually act in our own self interest. one may desire to eliminate a rival, but if doing so would cause others to restrict freedom or enact vengeance or other. The originally one may have to supress his own view in order to negate a deleterious effect to his being
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
I would have to say that if no one is accountable or responsible to anyone, anything or anywhatever then yes they still should have a moral system even if there is the lack of one. You may not be familiar with programming but there's a concept of null. Null is not simply zero because Zero IS a value and Zero DOES exist. Null IS a value but it's DOESN'T exist. That's a bit different from having no value because it CAN eventually have one.

A person that is NOT accountable or responsible to anyone, anything, or anywhatever CAN be accountable to themselves.

I do not think the idea of someone having or not having a morality is strange.|

If 2 or more individuals meet a ton of interactions can happen depending on a ton of possible circumstances. Any of the actions could be moral, amoral or whatever would be considered moral-neutral. Not everything has to be moral. If the interactions continue and are not negative, in this I'm more refering to one party not just completely being hostile or killing the other party, then relationships and familiarity form. Not so much sexual relationships or friends or anything but more an acknowledgement that the other individual exists. Future interactions might help to strenghten the relationships and might become something more like a small group and eventually a society. Societial norms and behaviors and morality will probably reflect the starting individuals morality along with some compromise. Or at least this is what I would think would happen.

Another possible scenario is where things do go negative and those usually end up being KOS because of possible threats. KOS stands for Kill on Sight. Think DayZ, H1Z1, Rust, Ark. If your not familiar with those games I would suggest watching some gameplay. Pretty much in those games everyone is out for themselves and Killing others on Sight is extremely regular.

Again there's lots of different possibles.

The nature of morality? In my opinion the way I view things which is in general pessimistic at best, I view morality as another control system.
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
I actually do agree with you about the null. That's a concept I actually am familiar with. Sorry if I didn't say. I would agree that not deciding on a moral system would be the null position.

I also don't think that people developing a morality or not is strange. I think that morality itself is strange in that it is intended to compel us but we have yet to find something, for sure, that makes it more than a mere battle of ideas. Ideas which are abstract things that don't necessarily correspond to reality. But even if you find an idea which is universal that we can agree on, it isn't necessarily clear how well that works in practice. Particularly when scaled up to the measure of billions of people. I think it kind of just devolves back into a mere battle of ideas about that universal moral concept. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Having a better understanding of the world around you is a good way to gain consensus. If people understand their similarities they may be more able to include the "others" into their group.

Basically I'm saying, it seems like a lot of people want to view morality as something fact based but moral facts seem to be unlike other facts. They're highly dependant on human psychology and behavior and seem to essentially work like market trends, in practice. So maybe I was just addressing moral knowledge again, idk.
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Yea it's a bit confusing. Like I said, I view it basically as another control system. This one mostly built from psychology / sociology to restrict possible actions.

You can scale it up tho. you'd basically be combining it with some other factors and scaling it up to cultures and societies.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
well i would agree that a moral system is always your own even in the face of other players influences. I do not represent the sum of my parents teachings, much to their disappointment. We all go thorough a process of determining whether information received fits .  

If i could use the being gay example as such a thing. Could we independently reach a conclusion about certain morals let's say "killing someone is bad" and being gay is bad. Derived from what our parents tell us? Sure many have. Many have also have the belief that killing is wrong and being gay is ok in opposition to what their parents say. It would be a reflection of what they felt inside. And The other 2 pairing  of killing ok, gay bad, and killing ok and gay good must surely exist as well.

What can only be said for certainty, if all people have power to decide to some extent their own morality. Then the view on the relative goodness of any moral is in a state of flux.  

also there is no one moral system , no one eternal good. *Shrugs*
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Pretty much. But with the no eternal good moral system. That kind of goes back to religion with God or Gods or w/e system you want to think of dictates the moral system. Then things should ideally be inline with that. Ideally.

Likewise while your parents might have the same morals as each other you individual morality system can and will be influenced by a lot of things. For example subliminal messages and stuff pushed into children's cartoons and media can influence the child. It might not be immediately apparently but overtime it can change things.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
i am certainly not denying the nature of where morals can be acquired from. Only the validity of the moral systems in relation to where they come from .
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
You're right in pointing out the lack of coherence in this journal. Sorry about that.
I was really just posting my thoughts and wanted to hear other views on what importance empathy has in an understanding of morals (some say empathy is necessary for moral knowledge and I'm mostly disagreeing with them). And just general ideas about morality and ethics.

Part of why I picked the title was just alliteration honestly.

The reasons I disregarded religion is because I don't view religions as offering any new knowledge at all. To me religions are just prepackaged worldviews with unjustified assertions that people trust for reasons I find unsatisfactory. As someone who values empiricism and skepticism I don't care for such things. Religion may have influenced a lot of people to improve their understandings of morality but it didn't provide what anyone could reliably call knowledge on that front.

As for ethics and morals, I know they're not the same and I conflated them at times but I guess I don't see that it really changes my criticisms of how people treat and go about implementing moral and/or ethical systems.
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Hmm..

Empathy at least to me, has no value when it comes to morals or ethnics. The only point I can see is using it to try to understand the ideas, beliefs and thinking of a group / person. Pass that, not really important. I don't really see how it's needed for "moral knowledge".

Quite frankly thinking about the term "moral knowledge" kinda seems... stupid. It's like... either it's good or bad and mostly hardlined at that. Hardlined as in mostly binary. Probably another one of those spinned terms to make someone feel superior or something.

Yes, religion is a prepackaged meal and yet people like usual are stupid and decide to reinterpret it a dozen ways most of which are wrong. Which kinda means you need to go to the source, look for yourself and then decide. Pretty much everything that gets "interpreted" is usually interpreted wrong or corrupted to be abused.

As far as people trying to understand moralities from it I don't really think people really care to understand. As far as moral knowledge.. again that term doesn't really make sense. I think it might be better to look at the psychology of different moral systems but the that doesn't seem very moral knowledgy to me. :/
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
I'm pretty much with you on moral knowledge. I don't really think the term has much value because moral knowledge is pretty much just an ability to assess something as moral or not. And that's just... like... the ability to call something moral and not moral which is trivial to most people.
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Mhmm..  okies so that's basically pointless. So then morality you basically have 2 simple things you can do with them.
1. What is and isn't moral according to a person / group
2. understand either how or why it's there.
You can probably do more like destroying it and stuff but those are probably the more important ones.

The first one seems pretty much binary as i said previously. The latter is more interesting and can go all over the place. Empathy might help in that regard but it's most likely not required or needed.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
i think empathy is overrated personally.  The ability to understand or relate to someone else's feelings is not a guarantee of good behavior as some Therapists think.  Does the ability truly affect your morals? or does it merely help guide the morals you already have.  

Could one have empathy for someone else's situation and still act in a way that would produce a negative effect on that person?

i can think of many situations.  Empathy only goes so far.

Could one have empathy for someone but lack it for others? Sure it happens. I can think of many, i don't feel bad for some mainly cause the trouble was brought on by themselves.

But, and here is an interesting idea, i can/could think of situations that make me empathetic towards someone due to my own moral views.

so chicken and egg time
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Pretty much Empathy is part of psychology and in a lot of ways psychology is a feedback loop. You might not feel any empathy til something happens to you and as you encounter it more and more your morality might shift. Likewise try to emulate empathy to gain a better understanding or comfort or whatever but it does little to shift your morality.

As you said, Chicken or Egg but on a feedback loop.
HowlEchoes
3 years, 3 months ago
I just wanna say, I really enjoyed this discussion and I think we actually agree on a lot.

I love that you mentioned the feedback loop because I was gonna mention that lol
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Yes it's fun to find people you can actually talk to about some things and have it not devolve into insults. Very hard to find.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
It was a  fun way  to spend some time :)
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
yes :)
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
why is there not a setting that alerts you to new posts no matter who it was linked to on an ongoing thread!!! its torturous to have to reply at people and have the thread fracture like it does.!!!
zyfer
3 years, 3 months ago
Not really sure. That stuff seems more forum-y that said it could also be a bit annoying.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
awakenji
3 years, 3 months ago
I did the Anais smile after I finished reading all the post lol.  "Heh, heh, yes I can follow the conversation just fine."

Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
so then answer the eternal human question!! Chunky or Smooth? :p
awakenji
3 years, 3 months ago
Hopefully you're not poking fun or anything.  I know I wasnt trying to with my comment.  Just a lot to read for a simpleton like me with some time on their hands.
Soulfire
3 years, 3 months ago
no i was just trying for a quick funny not disparaging in any way . kinda getting late here is all , worn out. It is impressive that anyone could follow the thread since it kept fracturing as we replied to different people and parts of the debate. Such a horrid system for such endeavors

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