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Kepora

Thoughts on the community at large.

by
So, the recent shit with Kero and seeing how many vocal rational people seem to be leaving the 'fandom' as a whole lately has been getting me thinking. I've been a vocal opponent of people who baselessly bash on furries and such for the longest time, and I've sought to try and be a good example to people outside of it. To take it upon myself to not act like a teenager in high school, or someone so sensitive that they can't handle criticism or have a serious conversation about touchy matters. One such example of this was years ago in Second Life, where - in a Star Wars RP community - I went to bat for a group of Amaran (Extended Universe fox people) players who were basically being trolled and shat on every day. The people I spoke to told me that I was the first one of that group (despite being the newest member there) who'd even tried to sit down and just talk to them to work things out. And in all fairness, I saw how big of a dick the rest of the Amaran players were being to them to deserve that treatment. Thing is, the conversation was had, and a lot of the animosity cleared up. Simple as that. it was tough and unpleasant - but in the end, everyone was better for it.

Fast forward to now. It seems no one is capable - let alone willing - to have conversations any more. If you have an opposing viewpoint and you don't change immediately on any grounds other than "I said so", you're labelled a bigot, Nazi, Russian bot, and whatever mixture of -phobe and -ist that the person can string together. We have people dragging identity politics and Tumblr-tier gender shit into the community in staggering amounts. We have actual, literal communists. He have actual zoophiles who rape actual animals.

And we, as a community, need to do something - and we need to do it soon.

What do we do, though? That's a question I've been asking myself for a long time now. What can we do? I think, to answer that, we need to look at how we got here.

I've always viewed the community from my earlier days (I joined Furaffinity back in December of 2006; 12 years ago, only a few months into being 18 at the time) as a sort of...'refuge' for like-minded individuals, both in regards to our shared interest in anthropomorphic characters and in regards to largely being social outcasts. The community always had a feeling of "letting things slide" and "letting people be themselves", which in of itself is not a bad thing. However, I think it sowed the seeds of what we see today. I think that the concept has been perverted over time, from just trying to be nice to each other to any criticism whatsoever being seen as bullying and a personal assault on the individual, with no room whatsoever for a middle ground, nuance, nothing. It's turned into a "if you're not 100% in agreeance with me then you're a horrible piece of shit" mentality. The idea that people don't have to grow up and change at all has been fomented in the community for the longest time, and now even others my age are on the same emotional level as the high schoolers and such who join the community every year.

This needs to stop.

We - as a community - need to mature, I think. not in the sexual way, but in the social and mental way. Yes, some of us have mental illnesses and conditions, myself being one of them. But instead of trying to find ways to cope and improve, it ends up being a shield and an excuse because of this "you don't have to change" mentality. We let shitty, impetuous behavior slide online and outright degeneracy to unfold in the public eye because of this (con goers who go around fucking even though they have HIV, people who fucking dry hump each other in hotel lobbies or jack off in the elevators, etc). People in this fandom are emotionally stunted (and I'm not declaring any innocence on my part, either. I'm 30, and I still have things to learn), and I think we - as a whole - need a wake-up call.

We need to grow up.
We need to mature.
We need to change.

But we need a plan.

Unfortunately, this is where I run into a road block - and where I turn to all of you for help. If a group were to form in the fandom to try and 'clean up' it's image - combat the childish behavior and the degeneracy that happens at cons - how would you go about it? What measures would you implement? How would you handle problem people who refuse to change, or people like Kero who go too far? How would you achieve this without totalitarian measures? I ask because - quite frankly - things are getting bad, and I'm having a hard time thinking of alternatives to literal gatekeepers to the community.

What are your thoughts?
Viewed: 113 times
Added: 5 years, 5 months ago
 
KevinSnowpaw
5 years, 5 months ago
what exactly can you do?


furrys isent a cammunity that requires a member ship, anybody can identify as one and since it often attracks people who dont fit in any place else it has a higher then averge concentration of weird strange and degenerate elements...but those exist in evry fandom.
Kalibran
5 years, 5 months ago
Who is Kero again? My mind automatically filters out people being horrid unless I can directly stop it.
KevinSnowpaw
5 years, 5 months ago
dude who was accused of participating in some really DARK necro beast sex videos or something.
Kalibran
5 years, 5 months ago
I think I saw that guy on my ballot last week.
Kepora
5 years, 5 months ago
He's a dude who there's literal video evidence of fucking roadkill, as well as beating and raping dogs - including violating a young one with a baseball bat.
DevilKrin
5 years, 5 months ago
Well, the only real thing that was confirmed for sure was the fact that the Telegram (Or whatever chat) logs were indeed his, which he eventually admitted to, but the videos where he was accused of being in them physically aren't enough sufficient evidence to show that it was actually him. But he did admit he was into that thing as a fetish/fantasy related and shared videos with whomever he was talking to in the leaked chat logs, but proclaims he had never attempted it irl, just was sharing videos with said friend of his.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxi3bxYz5kE
This video does a good job of summarizing everything and looking at the thing objectively.

But the whole zoosadist movement...lynching... thing is hit and miss. It did have videos of animals being tortured among more grotesque, disgusting things, but some of the people were just put on the list (Some of my personal friends included) because they had a popular following, and I disproved one of them as being debunked according to the "evidence" they provided against said friend.

I don't have Zoosadist guy's evidence anymore, since his twitter went defunct, but basically I immediately noticed that the logs he was in possession of as his substantial "evidence" was brought up in chrome as a URL, and after comparing the chat logs that said friend actually had from his Telegram Desktop app to the Zoosadist logs, some things were changed, and I knew exactly what said person did.  

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18RGuwmUwowTsIdEmPiDiy...

That's exactly what he did and it's incredibly easy to take a screenshot of something like that and claim it's "evidence".


So guess the point I was trying to make was, not all of the evidence is true, some of it is, but with it being full of inconsistent evidence across the board, it's up to you to decide to take it with a grain of salt and if it's not another blind witch hunt targeting mostly popular names for the hell of it. I generally try to take things like this case by case, doing it en masse like what Zoosadist did was only to provoke an arbitrary witch hunt. I'm under the impression, if he TRULY was upset by what he managed to unveil, he should have notified the proper authorities instead of stirring up something on Twitter. That's just my two cents though~
DiogenesShandor
5 years, 5 months ago
I'm not sure either, I tend to tune out sensationalist BS
Kepora
5 years, 5 months ago
It's not sensationalist. This shit actually happened.
DiogenesShandor
5 years, 5 months ago
"Sensationalist" doesn't necessarily mean "not true", merely that it's blown out of proportion and reported in an overly controversial, exaggerated, provocative, lurid, and loud manner.
Kupok
5 years, 5 months ago
This is not a "Furry" issue. You're seeing problems with the global social climate at large. Widen your scope.
Athendae
5 years, 5 months ago
Don't you mean he should "focus his lens" in that case? Lol
Kupok
5 years, 5 months ago
Apologies. I work in a dev environment, And in my line of work, scope refers less to a tool for seeing small things, and more to the range of functionality an application is to have.
DiogenesShandor
5 years, 5 months ago
You've got it backwards. He's seeing an issue with a single person as something that somehow concerns others.
Kupok
5 years, 5 months ago
Is he? This conversation may be spurred on by the activities of a loud jiggling lizard and his extra dog friendly terf mate, but his grievances have been attached to furry since the 70s.
Kepora
5 years, 5 months ago
You are right that these are issues beyond the scope of the fandom - but there's still plenty that goes on in it that we can't turn a blind eye to anymore. We need to accept that these things (explicitly illegal things, mind you) are happening and do something about it.
Kupok
5 years, 5 months ago
Re: Illegal things> I do my part. I spot *very bad things* on computers I repair, I report them. I file reports when I see things. Quietly, silently, and more often then not *to actual effect* and no one ever knows it's me. That's always the best way to do things. It brings actual investigation and justice and avoids false positives such as that which is common in the kangaroo court of social media.

As for the other things... I've spend 30 years worrying about how I was seen by others. I think I'm past that. Furries are already known as being generous with donations, and community builders. They their their time and effort behind their passions quite fully. Perhaps a little too easily suckered into charitable events. Of all the kinds of geek events with charity sponsors, They walk away from furcons with the most dosh.

The fandom overall is far, far "cleaner" then it was 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. 20 years ago, Mark Merlino, dude behind chakats and skiltares, more or less said "Furries = Sex" and he started an entire convention in California. 10 years ago, I could stick a card on the front lobby poster board and bang someone in a half hour. These days any sexual encounter has to be arranged well in advance.

In fact, that's what the burned furs movement was about ten years ago. Started as an organization that wanted to "clean up" the fandom reputation. Did it in shitty fashion of course.

You wanna know how to clean up the fandom?
Don't.

"Degeneracy" is not some problem to correct. It's a normal activity engaged by healthy adults, and giving context to degeneracy is a better plan. Teaching folks how to be weird ass sexual adults in a way that's safe, sane, legal, and discreet and giving them the space to do just that would be a much, much better idea.

Careful throwing words like that around though. It's one of those words that clues people in on where your ideas are flowing from.
hammse
5 years, 5 months ago
If the falsities get repeated repeat the truth.
"we" is an organic result of that.
needs the work and posture
DiogenesShandor
5 years, 5 months ago
This whole "scandal" is just a sensationalist story about one guy that's somehow gotten blown out of proportion. My recommendation for how to deal with it is to ignore it, or if you're unable to ignore it to talk to your doctor about getting an anti-anxiety drug like Xanax, Buspar, or Valium
AxleFurret
5 years, 5 months ago
A lot of people, especially when they get into their 30somethings, start to, I wouldn't say "leave", as much as stop actively participating in furry.

And this is more than just furry, it happens with anime and comics and many many others. Where people become watchers and "lurkers" instead of actively participating and going to parties and conventions.

And this day and age where mental disorders and illness are downright celebrated in the echo-chambers of "social media", many people don't even know if what they are doing is morally wrong because they have filtered out any and all dissenting opinion in their online worlds and have people ready to back up their bullshit at a moments notice.

Furry and Anime fandoms on a whole are FILLED with weird people. Just because there may be some crazy people does not mean the whole fandom is that way or that the whole fandom has to "mature".

I'm not defending a dogfucker, in fact I've called the cops and ASPCA on people in this fandom before, some shit just shouldn't be tolerated.

When I first came into furry there were the burned furs and religious furs trying to make the fandom G-rated christian and ban gay and sexual things. Now we have the "commie furs" coming in wanting to censor anyone they disagree with and label said people as "nazis" and witch hunt and bully them into leaving the fandom, all because the people they hate may have a different political or religious opinion on something/anything.

Many people just cannot think critically any more, and default to pure emotional response instead of rational ones, and the idea of "Agreeing to disagree and part amicably" is a foreign concept to the younger people in the fandom that are still operating on a high school mentality.

As to today's politics, they are found EVERYWHERE and in EVERYTHING.... It's freaking nuts... And the tribalism of "my team vs your team" has become even more crazy, even in something as dorky as the Star Trek and Star Wars fandoms... And again I see the echo chambers of social media and people having improper parenting growing up in this tech obsessed generation are mostly to blame.

Furry has always been weird... But it was weird and open to true diversity, including diversity of thought and diversity of weirdness. But since the mid 2000s and the advent of social media it has just gone to the extremes, touting diversity while being the exact opposite.

This "we as a community need to change things" I keep hearing, is an absolute SHIT idea... Because who gets to decide what things we change? Who gets to decide what is or isn't allowed? Who gets to decide what is or isn't "moral"...

Who decides the punishment for not falling in line?

Most people in the fandom are already societal "outcasts" and almost all of them have authority issues, usually telling them to do one thing guarantees they will do the opposite just to spite you.

Just because a bunch of people have a single interest or trait in common does not make it a "community" with governance.

Growing up and maturing as a fandom just isn't realistically going to happen when the vast majority of the fandom is mostly composed of people under 30. About all you could do is start a group or site devoted to 30 and up people.
Kepora
5 years, 5 months ago
" This "we as a community need to change things" I keep hearing, is an absolute SHIT idea... Because who gets to decide what things we change? Who gets to decide what is or isn't allowed? Who gets to decide what is or isn't "moral"...

Who decides the punishment for not falling in line?


That's the problem I run into, which is why I asked the question(s) I did. And I suppose the site for older/more mature folks is one idea, but there's still the issues with the community at large and the public perception of it.
AxleFurret
5 years, 5 months ago
Who cares what the "public perception" is?

Furry as a whole should not be taken "seriously"... EVER. ^_^

Stop obsessing over "labels" or what the "normies" think.

Just like how the mainstream news overblows things to get viewership, furry has its "drama of the week" do the same thing.

There is nothing that can be done to fix "public perception", that boat has already sailed and sunk long ago.

ANY fandom is going to be stereotyped and seen as "weird" when you show or ask people OUTSIDE of it.

Star Trek and Star Wars fandoms: "A bunch of fat unwashed nerdy dorks that like to dress up and buy old action figures and memorabilia, and will be virgins forever."

Anime fandoms: "A bunch of fat unwashed nerdy dorks, obsessed with japanese cartoons and comic porn, that like to crossdress up as underaged overly sexualized little girls and buy old action figures and tentacle porn, while they pretend they know everything about japan though anime, and will be virgins forever."

Furries: "A bunch of fat unwashed nerdy dorks that like to dress up as animals to fuck eachother and buy comissioned porn of their characters fucking some famous videogame or cartoon characters, many will die as virgins, and some will fuck roadkill."

It just keeps going like that.

I could just see it now "furry community outreach program" as furries fill potholes in the roads and take care of old people in senior citizen homes while dressed as giant animals....

That's still fucking weird and cringey. lol

No matter which way you slice it... To a "normal person" Furry is weird, and full of weird people, doing weird shit. THAT is the public perception, and it has been that way since I came into furry in the 1990s.
hammse
5 years, 5 months ago
Look at your first and last line. You need to brawl more. Sorry man I know I am beeing wildly unthankful.

In any case never in history have so many been busy getting their feet on the ground and helping others -helping others- like the last months in particular. Lightening up (sp?) has gotten a worldwide phenomenon. Eventually the new generations might tear you out of your cynicism and my wager is it would be unwise to cling to it for too long. It won`t be violent but it won`t be gentle. Because it is natural. my two cents.

(maybe you could say ignorance/rigidity/violence/insecurity is shifting from genetics to memetics, where it has a much harder time surviving)
AxleFurret
5 years, 5 months ago
Is English your native language?

Because I am having a hard time understanding what you just typed up. It's like reading a response from an old AIM bot or bad google translate.

My first and last line is pointing out that furry "public perception" is, and always will be, "weird".

Changing that would change what furry is. For it to NOT be weird you would have to get rid of everything "furry" is, and there will always be extreme outliers and rule breakers in large groups of loosely associated people like any fandom.

Uhh, brawling? Not violent, not gentle? Okaaaaay.

I also have no clue why you said genetics are becoming memes?

@_@
hammse
5 years, 5 months ago
I think it was unfair starting this talk with you but I have a huge problem with you trying to decide for others so very much.
Allright! *spits into hands* Now I`d love to brawl with you xD Did we allready have this discussion somewhere else? I`ve read your stories ages ago, the sounding one was very fun. I`d probably be like a dog loosing against you all the time but dogs teach humans a lot *pokes with a stick*
With that said, insisting to decide for others is that cynicism I spoke about. I see you`re not ready to let that go I sure have my own demons but I listen to their wisdom it is always worth it to retain humanity which all the loose ties today (emerging?) make obviously relevant. Many waited for this with all their heart and mind so I really wouldn`t take it lightly.

If you ever get interested, a bit down I`ll post the age old natural knowledge, or what I uncovered so far. I am still in the thick of unraveling all that but the deeper you get the more sense it seems to make.
AxleFurret
5 years, 5 months ago
So... Something is being lost in translation here so I'll just say "Good luck with whatever it is you are trying to say, and or do."

^_^
hammse
5 years, 5 months ago
*hugs* and if you don`t let me *gently fistbumps your shoulder
DiogenesShandor
5 years, 5 months ago
I agree. There's no authority that governs the fandom, and nobody would accept one if there was; I certainly know that I wouldn't.
hammse
5 years, 5 months ago
Ideology forcefully limits intuitive reaction to moments of shocks/trauma/fear/constriction which is natural/vital to process/analyze/interprete the instant feelings instead of getting terryfied by them. You literally have no conception of your needs then, "who you are", and can`t communicate it then. I I think it is what is often called "self" too but I don`t fully remember right now. If nobody communicates it, it drops out of reality/culture. Everything becomes physical -> addiction, objectification. (this is the problem with "my language", it always pops up when I insist on responsibility and autonomy, I simply come on too strong but that is the very point, it ain`t too strong at all ever- not once you have time to think about it(after the moment)). That direct reaction hands down is the central nervous system, which is the child, the ability to be in the moment, the salt in the soup, (the dark balance to the light if you will, the grounding, stability). The intuition, or rather visceral awareness, to figure out where it is at and maybe have mojo, but at least a clue. It is no problem whatsoever, in fact vitality itself, to have trauma/shocks/etc. the really nitty gritty of trauma does not even have to be "ups and downs" it can already simply be to having to collect yourself (even softer example is hickups, single ones are rigid), all that falls flat with ideology. It is the whole and entire "part of life" issue that things like red pill or the gervais principle (or psychology: Wilhelm Reich) so desperately try to unbury. Admittedly it is a silly lot of material and a good friend helps. Only ideology makes trauma/shock/fearetcetc stick and fester. I find a very gritty way to look at it is Ideology as enforced narrative (by own unconscious or anothers` overreaching, succumbing to infrastructure also does that "what you have has you" etc). All of that might make perfect sense when agreed upon and the pressure is big enough but if not it goes rigid and dysfunctional, leading to narcissism to serve the structures that don`t serve you (narcissism because you lack so much), and ending up yearning control as being only in your brain and zero in your body. Even that tho can make sense in real emergencies but that has the bad affinity to completeley miss the mark of an emergency being long over because the initial trauma is avoided nearly no matter what at that point (therapy of these is the single tear thing), that is where others have to deal with it on basis of autonomy, integrity, originality, creativity and all these. Like a professional but humor does the trick too, not my fortee, I am completely elsewhere to carry all this together. We haven`t really rediscovered the terminology but have been trying for centuries (the great minds and mentalities since always) but especially the last months I think we give it an increasingly phenomenal effort.

Memetics is mapping all this. Tv tropes is a neat example. I think Undertale is a nice meme tho. All of this is old knowledge everybody knew before the industrialization. Somatic therapy seems to resolve stuff in two hours others only manage in like two lifetimes, no incense, no teabagswingery, alltho I`d watch the spiritual stuff that pops up if you go and research it and that stuff is not your cup of tea. This is profundity, which I study, which you meant with the language barrier.

interesting exercize: two pages in the Gervais Principle has a little picture of where folks fall in language-wise after trauma gets stuck by ideology: It is telling why one whole part is left out.

back to furry: social transactions always boil down to awareness because literal respect without that is impossible. Getting out of the victim stance is picked up pretty neat by the drama triangle too (hitting the mark).
BrokenPupper
5 years, 4 months ago
Sorry, too busy laughing from it all to give proper advise.
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