How're you doing down there?

I've had worse mornings. ;)

CeilYurei

10 years, 3 months ago

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With no balls though.

tannim

10 years, 3 months ago

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as it is fantasy and in that world you can get them back, I'm ok with that.

Chrontius

10 years, 3 months ago

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Ignoring that for a moment, castration is only widely practiced in those engineered species who don't suffer from hormone withdrawals the same way humans are known to. The vast majority of snipped humans use something comparable to an implanted insulin pump, except it handles six to ten major hormones according to one of several carefully programmed long-term protocols, and one of several short-term tweaks. A large portion of them were snipped so they could store their testicles safely away in a freezer, gaining the benefit of digital hormone regulation while avoiding irrevocable testicle damage and lowering - sidestepping - the risk of malignancy caused by this kind of damage. If you're going to go from a pair of grapes to a pair of raisins, why not?

The well-hidden irrationality is, it would often be cheaper to discard them and have a pint of stem-cell-derived spoo whipped up each time you want to have a child, than it would to pay for long-term cryopreservation.

CeilYurei

10 years, 3 months ago

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Castration is gross and lazy.

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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Gross, I get that. Lazy, though? In what context do you claim that "lazy" is a relevant criticism?

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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As opposed to other methods of birth control or similar population control methods. "How do we stop them from breeding? An education program on overpopulation dangers and birth control?" 'Nah, just slowly indoctrinate the populace and cut the balls off the males.'

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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Edited 10 years, 2 months ago by Owner

For what it's worth, "long-acting reversible contraceptives" and sterilization are rapidly becoming the standard of care in the real world, in places where politics isn't interfering. Where politics is interfering? It looks something like this. Why would you do such a thing, when the program is prima facie successful at achieving the ends you say you want (where you = "American conservative-leaning politicians") I haven't the foggiest clue, but here's a few interesting theories.

When writing sci-fi, I find it challenging to keep my subject matter weirder than the present. The present continues to become weirder at a higher rate than I - or even William Gibson himself - can keep up with. It's thrilling, but it presents certain difficulties.

"	CeilYurie wrote:
	As opposed to other methods of birth control or similar population control methods. "How do we stop them from breeding? An education program on overpopulation dangers and birth control?" 'Nah, just slowly indoctrinate the populace and cut the balls off the males.'

Education and birth control don't really work all that well.  That much is clear in the historical record.  What does work well are the kinds of things you don't have to think about, or interact with in the middle of things - the pill worked better than condoms, and implants work better than the pill.  Do I think that what I draw is actually a good idea?  Likely?  No and no.  But what I do want to do is ask a serious question of bioethics.  Will people continue to care about bastards and bloodlines when you can change out your entire genetic code, or will they get blasé about it, because after a thorough gene-job, you (for certain values of "you") won't be related (for certain values of "related") to you your children anyway?

Which wins out in the end, meat, or mind?  Is it raising children that makes them yours, or siring them?  How do you even define "siring" when you can have an immaculate conception in an in-vitro pregnancy, because you e-mailed both (all?) parents' genomes to the midwife, who synthesized a genome based on likely patterns of meiosis, crossing over, and epigenetic effects?

Is the effect liberation or alienation?  Both?  Do people decide they enjoy the alienation and experience the mundane strangeness of an accelerating future like a pleasant dream, or do they recoil at us messing with Things Man Was Not Meant to Know?

Sure - I pander really fucking hard, to help my audience to get off, but I do think about this, and if deviant pornography can be a force for good, well, it behooves me to work at it.  In the words of Banksy, "It's not art unless it has the potential to be a disaster."

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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I want a bio kid. But adoption will do. And I guess you ahve a point. Probably why the supreme court declared human loli and shota and cub porn as art. it's controversial yet much of it is high quality and not just simple porn. I've seen plenty of manga and comics that had WAY better setups than mainstream adult porn.

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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Also, I suspect that, even in my position as author, "birth control" is only a fraction of why they do it.

I've been reading a lot of Eclipse Phase lately, and I've been thinking about the problems you might have raising a genetically engineered cyborg baby with a companion AI as baseline parents, and imagining this as a common sort of problems in my story.  Another major theme is objectification of living things, but by changing the context from "cloned space-men" to "clever adorable babies that people give up major opportunity cost to adopt" I hope to avoid the same traps found by SF&F writers in the 70s & on.  I want my cloned monsters more firmly anchored in the social fabric by people who love them than the mass-produced, crêche-raised idiots of Brave New World.  I want a story where you let your (adopted) lizard-child sleep with you because they had a bad dream, a few hours after you failed to help them with their calculus homework and the playground bully.  Themes of impending obsolescence should be even more acute than Mass Effect:  Human Revolution.

If anything, making dragonets more tractable should be, in hindsight, an obvious attempt to slow down being replaced until the average dragonet can be educated, to avoid producing accidental tykebombs.  I want to give my society every chance to f*ck themselves, and watch them avoid the land mines.

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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I dunno, I rather deal with problems instead of using mutilation and sergery to make shit easier out of laziness...and why not just engineer human kids to be smarter?

CeilYurei

10 years, 3 months ago

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I'm NEVER okay with genital mutilation normalized by generational brainwashing.

tannim

10 years, 3 months ago

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Then you are watching the WRONG artist.

CeilYurei

10 years, 3 months ago

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I keep waiting for the conflict he teased at...

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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"	CeilYurie wrote:
	I keep waiting for the conflict he teased at...

Fair enough, but right now it only exists as notes. Would you like a synopsis of the two novellas that are (eventually) going to come out of those notes?

Unfortunately, I work slowly, and have difficulty making those things flow much faster than I am now.

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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I'll wait I guess.

CeilYurei

10 years, 3 months ago

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I'd start killing people.

Chrontius

10 years, 3 months ago

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Don't sign the permission slip, then. ;)

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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"	CeilYurie wrote:
	I'd start killing people.

Also, it's worth noting that's not an uncommon opinion, in-universe.  However, it's a growing and mediagenic demographic, and ongoing scandals have a way of dominating the news cycle.  (Hilary Clinton's email server, for example)

Combine that with an unreliable narrator - a point-of-view character with a position working for a body-modification provider, and you'll likely see him indulging in confirmation bias - he surrounds himself with things that affirm his values and life choices.  That's one cognitive fallacy that's likely to be shared by humanity's offshoots, in my opinion.

So - a question for you.  If you lived in this 'verse, what would you say to people who modified their genomes?  Their genitals?  To cyborgs?  Would you ask them why, or tell them something, or would you just try to avoid (thinking about) them?

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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Genome mods and cybernetics enhancements are not the same as genital mutilation. Cybernetics can be very useful where cloning isn't affordable or practical for limb loss, hell if you're a construction worker or soldier a cybernetic limb may be preferable if life like enough. Need a tool? just get one from your arm. And genome enhancement or gender alteration to preferred species/gender is under transgender/species, matter of preference or inner self. But genital mutilation is abhorrent in comparison reversable sterilization (implant is actually psuedo sterilization, raises PH lvl to prevent pregnancy) It's like circumsision, preferring the nuetered look or cut look as apposed to natural look. It's cosmetic if process is reversable. And as for storing sperm...if something happens to the storage facility...there goes any possible offspring.

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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As for genital mutilation - I have a question, from the setting bible, for one of my most interesting commentors.  I have prenatal drugs in the setting, that can produce fey, and herms, and nullos.  What if you could take a pill and produce the same effects?  This has been, judging by the file's metadata, sitting around since 2013, so I'd like to be clear - I'm not creating it just to challenge you.  For almost two years, there've been cheap pills to produce this effect in your next child.  Does that change your calculus?

In comparison reversible sterilization?  Raises PH lvl?  I'm interested in what you have to say here, but I'd like you to spell it out so there's no chance of me misunderstanding you.

And as for preferring the neutered look to the circumcised look, that's a deliberate point of criticism that's aimed squarely at judeo-christian dick trimming; I'm pleased that someone took notice of it before I died.  For what it's worth, however, I'd like to point out that real-world circumcision takes place without anaesthetic, in specially sound-proofed rooms, and babies often end up doing enough screaming that they forget to breathe and pass  out.  They also occasionally suffer severe penile injury that persists for decades.  Here, however, they're all too soft-hearted to do anything like that without long-lasting pain control, and any long-term injuries are likely to be more of an inconvenience than a trauma, because of bioprinting.  (I'm seriously having trouble keeping my sci-fi elements ahead of the real world, and that's utterly thrilling!)

As for storing sperm in a building prone to blackouts or car crashes, or other minor catastrophes, well…  I think that's more a thing that insurance will complain about, rather than an immediate end to a family line - even today, in the real world.  You see, in the immortal words of Bruce Sterling,

"	Bruce Sterling wrote:
	Anything that can be done to a rat can be done to a human being. We can do just about anything you can imagine to rats. And closing your eyes and refusing to think about this won't make it go away. That is cyberpunk.

In my 'verse, nobody with power gives a shit about reproductive cloning any more - not the kind where you can clone sperm from a cheek swab and pick up a half-liter a week later.  Granted, anyone who intends on using this stuff to start a family is probably going to have nervous thoughts in the back of their minds, but the level of societal collapse necessary to disrupt the availability of cloned sperm is going to stop the flow of cloned insulin, and that's a pretty big fucking collapse.

When I tell a post-apocalyptic story in my 'verse, you'll bloody well know it.  Probably because of all the weaponized rabies going around.

Please, don't take this as attempting to shut you down.  I love this kind of debate and discussion, and don't get enough of it elsewhere!

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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I would consider herm or fey, by which I assume to be smaller people, a simple modification...however I would see making your child a nullo a violation of their basic rights as a living being. Also, if you have such metdata I would be seriously interested if it exists IRL, since I consider fetile hermpahrodites a perfect sexual adaptation and an ideal addition to the genders. BTW if I seem to ignore something I have no real comments to add. Other than i would never want to use cloned sperm or stemcell sperm to make a child. Let alone print one out. ANd some sick religion in your world might nueter and castrate dragonling or furry cubs (if you can make a dragon you can make a fox kid) like they circumcise real children. I also see raising anybody as a pet rather than a child immoral...

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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Edited 10 years, 2 months ago by Owner

"	CeilYurie wrote:
	I would consider herm or fey, by which I assume to be smaller people, a simple modification...

Not quite… The "fey phenotype" is a term for the consistent, androgynous and neotenic characteristics displayed by a dragon who was snipped young, and grew up like that. Imagine if a cherubim and a dragon had an illegitimate love-child, and you're in the right ballpark. On the other hand, herms actually look similar, but they tend to have more secondary sex characteristics, but conflicting with each other, rather than lacking most of them entirely. Each is ambiguous in their own way! :3

"	CeilYurie wrote:
	however I would see making your child a nullo a violation of their basic rights as a living being.

What rights do you think that violates and how? I've been jonesing for a good ethics debate for years, and this looks like it has potential. :D

"	CeilYurie wrote:
	Also, if you have such metdata I would be seriously interested if it exists IRL, since I consider fetile hermpahrodites a perfect sexual adaptation and an ideal addition to the genders.

What do you mean "metdata"? And fertile hermaphrodites are likely a ways off at present; for all my 'verse is mastering biotech, they can't make fertile hermaphrodite humans, and are hard pressed to make fertile herm dragons and elves. Even so, it's likely that the herm condition won't persist across generations, and if you want your kids to be herms, or they decide they want to be herms, they'll need surgery for that. Nobody's tried creating a species or strain that's consistently hermaphroditic, each generation on and on.

"	CeilYurie wrote:
	BTW if I seem to ignore something I have no real comments to add. Other than i would never want to use cloned sperm or stemcell sperm to make a child. Let alone print one out.

Printing entire organisms is at least 20 years in the future for my setting. Why wouldn't you want to use stem-cell-derived sperm to have a child, though? The only reason I can think of for that position is "yuck factor", and I may be missing an interesting perspective on it.

"	CeilYurie wrote:
	ANd some sick religion in your world might nueter and castrate dragonling or furry cubs (if you can make a dragon you can make a fox kid) like they circumcise real children.

Actually, most of the people who get gene-hacked into dragons or furs tend to be agnostic or atheist; even if they weren't beforehand, being accosted in church for being an abomination tends to drive people out of organized faith groups, or into more liberal groups such as the Unitarian Universalists or the Mormons. Is it entirely unreasonable that they decided that circumcision's harms lie mostly in its irreversibility and the suffering that go alongside the procedure? I don't think it's self-contradictory.

Edit: Over the cap, continued in the next post.

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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I consider every individual as having their own basic rights of reproduction. To father or mother a child bilogically their own. To remove this right would be abhorrent. ANd I wouldn;t use stem cells because any cloning process creates flaws. And there are also issues of if your're poor then you couldn;t afford such a procedure most likely. Hell, IRL I'm so broke that LUBE looks like a sexualy luxury since it is a conmsmumable product unlike a video game or console, which can last years...

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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I've only obliquely referred to it, but the US in 35 years has a single-payer health care system, and a generous one at that.  As a country with a technological unemployment problem, a little demand-side stimulus has proved quite useful.  And as elves have proved durable and healthy, covering species transition costs has proved financially prudent - initially, it was covered cheaply or freely by supplemental insurance policies, (both health and life!) but now it's covered by national insurance.

And as unplanned pregnancies have broad social costs, decent fertility care proves to be cheaper even than giving people nothing.  All of these postulates are based on what's today suspected, but nobody will pay for a large-scale test... or will act on data-driven policies once some philanthropist takes it on themselves to pay for such a test.

I'm assuming a less schizophrenic conservative wing who says what they want, and then works toward that end, reformed in response to the political climate of the late twenty-teens.  :P

In effect, it's cheaper to pay for sterilizations and fertility treatments than it is to pay for jails and adult literacy programs, and with a living wage, people can afford to invest in things with long-term payoffs (college funds for their kids) rather than focusing on short-term survival needs (feeding and clothing a half-dozen illegitimate kids)

I guess I'm assuming that "X causes problems" ... "So don't do X" social policy, already discredited, has finally been removed from the American political lexicon.  This has ... some rather sprawling implications.

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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You assume that conservatives will EVER agree to make a living wage law... Hell, even SSI is barely enough to live on and that;s what it's supposed to be. Unless you're a caregiv er. Then it's money you get paid for barely providing stuff for a bunch of adults in a group home while you give them 20 bucks a month to spend.

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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There's some logic to it, and it's not liberal feel-good logic. After decades of supply-side economics, someone has to think of demand-side economics sooner or later, or people will stop buying things and business will suffer. After years of trying to lubricate the economy, a bunch of billionaires went turncoat and forced a living wage. Within only a few years, business improved.

A rising tide lifts all boats, but they had to make sure that everyone had a boat first, to make an analogy.

CeilYurei

10 years, 2 months ago

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Most people today barely have a safety vest...and the rising tide also brings sharks. No boat and yer vulnerable. ANd I know there is logic for a living wage, try telling the current batch of conservatives that.

Chrontius

10 years, 2 months ago

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