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identititity.mp3
Felt like making an audio journal entry/essay instead of just writing one.

Keywords
genderfluid 1,591, gender 1,553, non-binary 1,521, identity 192, roarey raccoon 37
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Type: Music - Single Track
Published: 6 months, 2 weeks ago
Rating: General

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TravisTRetriever
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Off topic but just from the first 10 seconds, you have a very cute accent and voice. n.n
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Gender identities aren't fake or shallow. They are many and varied, possessing a lot more nuance than simply, "what genitals does this person have?". It also encompasses how they wish to present themselves, the roles they wish to play, how they truly feel, and how they wish to be addressed.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
What they wear, how idiotic they wish to act and what they want other people to call them. So deep and nuanced XP. They're a shortcut to avoid having to actually develop a personality. End of story. Hence every single person who has made a video of themselves to explain what they are is entirely unwatchable cringe. Nothing is ever going to transform bullshit into truth.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
That's really watering things down do a reductive degree, and I suspect you know that's what you're doing. You gloss over the nuance so you don't have to see that which you're unwilling to accept. You call the nuance "bullshit" in hopes to shame others into conformity, which you call "truth."

There are a vast array of people, possessing varying amounts of masculine traits, feminine traits, and traits which are neither masculine nor feminine. Those varying amounts of masculine traits, feminine traits, and traits which are neither masculine nor feminine create a vast spectrum of genders.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
No, the pathetic performative weakness on display by the so-called non-binary is clear and evident. As is the fundamental pleading, whiny weakness of your position.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Not everyone can be strong, and some need to plead out to be heard, and sometimes even then they still go unheard. I feel for those people and want to lessen their woe. Because it pains me to see them oppressed and downtrodden.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Wrong, everyone can grow stronger, and when you celebrate their weakness you are wishing for them to remain so. None of these people are made happier by their declarations of belonging to new genders, they are made worse. That is why validation and respect is demanded and pleaded for by them, because they know they've not done anything to earn it. What you believe to be mercy and compassion is actually cruelty, what you claim is virtue is a celebration of destruction. Your perspective is evil and you are contemptible.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
It's ableist to think everyone can just "grow stronger." Some people struggle doing their best and cannot get stronger.
I do not want people to be weak, I just acknowledge that some people just are. And I don't think any less of them for it. But they need our compassion and understanding.
You can't just decide that nobody is made happier by having their gender identity validated. They very much are. You have no idea. It can be downright euphoric.
People shouldn't have to earn respect or validation. Those should be a given.
" What you believe to be mercy and compassion is actually cruelty, what you claim is virtue is a celebration of destruction.

I'm gonna need to see proof of that.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
You have already refused to see it. Everyone has limitations, but everyone can also grow in a multitude of ways. Claiming you are non-binary is not a disability, it isn't a health condition, it is pure fantasy. There are limits on what I can do, with severe depression for over 25 years, with anxiety disorder so bad that the cortisol it floods into my system has had multiple awful physical side-effects. When I had your beliefs I was more miserable, I was weaker, more helpless. But I did grow as a person, and still continue to. When we love someone we want to see them grow, gain in knowledge, experience, health, competence, skills etc. We love to see them succeed. This is instinctive to the core, it is reflected in whom society generally celebrates, how we feel about our children when we are parents, how we feel about those we genuinely care about. If we wish to see a person remain in place, be dominated by their weaknesses, then we do not love them. We want to see them fail so we feel less like failures. It is an evil, spiteful impulse and you have disguised it as affection and care. The ideological cult you are aligned with, as I once was, encourages mediocrity, failure, weakness and stasis, the worship of arrested development, that if you live your whole life and die with the same things dominating your life and making it worse, then that's okay. No, a lack of growth makes people miserable, a misery you encourage while believing yourself to be kind. You aren't kind, you just lack the sense of responsibility required to give a fuck whether or not your real actions damage others.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I have no desire to see people fail. I wish they could grow stronger, but I know that when they reach their limit, they reach their limit. And when they do, I don't bark "WHY AREN'T YOU STRONGER!?" I comfort them and try to make things easier for them.

" Claiming you are non-binary is not a disability, it isn't a health condition, it is pure fantasy.

Well, you're two for three on that. Being non-binary isn't a fantasy, it's a valid way to identify.

" No, a lack of growth makes people miserable, a misery you encourage while believing yourself to be kind.

That sounds like projection on your part. Also, a lack of growth in one aspect does not mean a total lack of growth altogether.
alistair
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" HattieTheHat wrote:
There are a vast array of people, possessing varying amounts of masculine traits, feminine traits, and traits which are neither masculine nor feminine. Those varying amounts of masculine traits, feminine traits, and traits which are neither masculine nor feminine create a vast spectrum of genders.


This is just a redefinition of "personality" given a sex-based veneer, one presumes in order to capitalize on preexisting sexual politics.  It reads as little more than a power-play by assuming the guise of an oppressed class and then using that guise as a hammer to coerce others into obeying.

If a person wants to hang cute little decorations on their personality, fine, whatever, but pretending like that makes them somehow special or deserving of, well, anything beyond what is due any other person is just narcissistic silliness.

I note that this whole concept codifies specific ideas of what "masculine" and "feminine" traits are, while at the same time trying to claim that those ideas are false and must be discarded.  It's infantile, inconsistent nonsense.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Everybody deserves to be referred to by their preferred name and preferred pronouns, including cisgendered people.

The inconsistency you see is when people don't match up with what they are expected to be. Because those expectations are un-nuanced nonsense that won't always fit. And some people aren't what is expected of a man or of a woman, and choose instead to be non-binary, which is valid.

Also, transgender people don't choose how they feel about their genders, and they don't want to be oppressed. They just want to live their best lives and feel happy about themselves. Hearing their identities being invalidated does not make them happy at all.
alistair
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" HattieTheHat wrote:
Everybody deserves to be referred to by their preferred name and preferred pronouns, including cisgendered people.


Nobody deserves anything inherently.  Claiming that somebody deserves something is merely asserting entitlement.  Respectful and fair behavior is not given because it the person to whom it is given deserves it, but because the person offering it has determined it is the correct behavior at that time.  There is nothing of what someone deserves.

Otherwise, anyone can claim they deserve anything whatsoever, and then claim the lack of the thing as proof of oppression, thereby justifying any use of power against anyone they perceive as denying them the thing.  On what basis does someone deserve to have their assertions respected without question?

You are advocating for childish power games.

" The inconsistency you see is when people don't match up with what they are expected to be.


The inconsistency I referred to is the case of persons claiming to be something they physically are not, that because their personalities don't conform to some pre-defined definition of a thing they must be something else.  Instead of accepting that the vagaries of their personalities expand the definitions, they crystallize the definitions in their rebellion.

Modern transgender ideology implicitly accepts the same traditional "gender roles" it claims to oppose.  That is the inconsistency.

" Also, transgender people don't choose how they feel about their genders, and they don't want to be oppressed.


Nobody chooses how they feel about anything, but they do choose how they behave based on those feelings.

The hallmark of an adult is someone who does not allow their feelings to cloud their rational behavior.  Children are incapable of separating the two.

Treating adults as though they are children is not helping them, it is harming them.

A transgender person who just lives their life and doesn't let every little slight destroy their psyche or respond by trying to destroy others, is just a person.  A transgender person who makes everything about their transgenderism and cries about oppression and uses it as a hammer to coerce others into bending the knee to their whims is a petulant, manipulative child.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" Nobody deserves anything inherently.

In that case, nobody deserves to be misgendered or deadnamed.

" The inconsistency I referred to is the case of persons claiming to be something they physically are not,

Gender isn't physical at all. It's an identity. Most transgender people don't claim to not be the sex that they are.

" their personalities don't conform to some pre-defined definition of a thing they must be something else.

As long as there are people saying what men have to be and what women have to be, (and there are. Eww), there will be people saying "I don't fit into that mold and never will."

" The hallmark of an adult is someone who does not allow their feelings to cloud their rational behavior.

Uh, no. That's the hallmark of a subservient drone.

" Treating adults as though they are children is not helping them, it is harming them.

I'm not treating adults like children. I'm treating them like free thinkers who march to the beat of their own drums.

" doesn't let every little slight destroy their psyche

They aren't choosing that. Nobody wants their psyche destroyed.

" A transgender person who makes everything about their transgenderism and cries about oppression

is probably getting oppressed so much that they aren't allowed to focus on anything else.

And most transgender people aren't just being transgender on a fucking whim. WTF?
alistair
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" HattieTheHat wrote:
" Nobody deserves anything inherently.

In that case, nobody deserves to be misgendered or deadnamed.


Pathetic equivocation.  Your formulation is the same as "Everybody deserves not to be misgendered or deadnamed."

You are still asserting an entitlement.

See how my formulation inverts to "Everybody deserves nothing inherently" and retains the same meaning?  You equivocated and changed the meaning in a typical linguistic manipulation to try to make it seem like I was making your point for you.

I anticipated you would pull this stunt, and was careful to make sure my phrasing wouldn't let you get away with it.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to display what a manipulative jerk you are despite your pretense of sweetness and caring.

"
" their personalities don't conform to some pre-defined definition of a thing they must be something else.

As long as there are people saying what men have to be and what women have to be, (and there are. Eww), there will be people saying "I don't fit into that mold and never will."


And in so doing they are implicitly accepting those molds!  Otherwise, they would be arguing that they are men/women too, despite their personalities not adhering to some jerk's strict definition.  No, they decide to reject that they are men/women altogether.

"
" Treating adults as though they are children is not helping them, it is harming them.

I'm not treating adults like children. I'm treating them like free thinkers who march to the beat of their own drums.


When a child acts like a dog and tells you they are a dog, and you play along with it by feeding them dog food and keeping them in a dog house outside, you are abusing them.   If an adult acts like a child and tells you they are a child, and you play along with them by treating them like a child, you are abusing them.

You aren't treating them like free thinkers, you're treating them like irresponsible children and enabling their petty manipulations.  Instead of helping them get stronger when they face adversity, you blame the world and tell them they're just fine and don't have to grow.  You advocate for infantilization.

"
" A transgender person who makes everything about their transgenderism and cries about oppression

is probably getting oppressed so much that they aren't allowed to focus on anything else.


They're probably being told they're getting oppressed by opportunistic folks like yourself, who gain power from weak people by keeping them weak and using that weakness as a cudgel to manipulate others.

" And most transgender people aren't just being transgender on a fucking whim. WTF?


I'll take "Shit I Didn't Say" for $400, Alex, you Manipulative Lying Snake.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" Pathetic equivocation.

Apparently not pathetic enough for your cold heart.

" See how my formulation inverts to "Everybody deserves nothing inherently" and retains the same meaning?

So you should have nothing? I don't think so. I don't want anyone to have nothing.

" typical linguistic manipulation

All talking (and typing) is a manipulation of linguistics.

" your pretense of sweetness and caring.

I am caring. And I'll do what I gotta to help the people I care about.

" And in so doing they are implicitly accepting those molds!

They accept that those molds are being imposed on people.

" they decide to reject that they are men/women altogether.

And you don't want to respect their decisions? Sounds disrespectful.

" When a child acts like a dog and tells you they are a dog, and you play along with it by feeding them dog food and keeping them in a dog house outside, you are abusing them.   If an adult acts like a child and tells you they are a child, and you play along with them by treating them like a child, you are abusing them.

Gender isn't like species or age. Gender is an identity. Species, age, and sex are not. Also, consentual ageplay can be a harmless roleplay that isn't abuse.

" You aren't treating them like free thinkers, you're treating them like irresponsible children and enabling their petty manipulations.

Trans people are not being petty when they ask for their identities to be respected. It's for their mental health. Mental health is important.

" You advocate for infantilization.

It's not infantilization to acknowledge that some people are unable to just become as strong as others can.

" They're probably being told they're getting oppressed

They definitely are getting oppressed. There are people who oppress them. That's verifiable.

" folks like yourself, who gain power from weak people by keeping them weak

What power have I gained, that I'm unaware of? If I had power, I would use it for the benefit of the people I care about.
Also, I don't want anyone to be weak.

" using that weakness as a cudgel

How so?

" to manipulate others.

A change is needed.

"
" And most transgender people aren't just being transgender on a fucking whim. WTF?

I'll take "Shit I Didn't Say" for $400, Alex, you Manipulative Lying Snake.

Then what did you mean by...
" bending the knee to their whims
alistair
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Last engagement from me in this thread. Everything I say here is for the benefit of others reading, not an attempt to convince you of anything.

"
" See how my formulation inverts to "Everybody deserves nothing inherently" and retains the same meaning?

So you should have nothing? I don't think so. I don't want anyone to have nothing.


This is a misunderstanding, possibly deliberate, of what I said. You have taken "X deserves/not deserves Y" and turned it into "X should/not should have Y".

These are not the same, and you acting like they are is a dishonest tactic and attempt at manipulating using emotion.

"
" typical linguistic manipulation

All talking (and typing) is a manipulation of linguistics.


I am accusing you of both manipulation using linguistics, and the manipulation of linguistics in service of that end.

No, not all communication is manipulation. If you genuinely believe that then it says a lot about your character.

"
" your pretense of sweetness and caring.

I am caring. And I'll do what I gotta to help the people I care about.


You pretend to be caring, but your constant twisting of words and snide comments hiding behind the pretense reveals the snake.

"
" And in so doing they are implicitly accepting those molds!

They accept that those molds are being imposed on people.


My point is that they are accepting the strict definitions rather than applying their own.  They are implicitly accepting the definitions of the people they oppose by rejecting the labels.  They are confusing map with territory and in so doing buying into the very thing they claim to reject.

"
" they decide to reject that they are men/women altogether.

And you don't want to respect their decisions? Sounds disrespectful.


Didn't say that, lying snake.  And I won't respect someone's decision to deny physical reality, full stop.  Before you try to twist my words again, snake, I'm not saying I won't respect the person, if they show themselves worthy of respect.

" Also, consentual ageplay can be a harmless roleplay that isn't abuse.


More twisting of words to try to act like you're making a point.  Did I say consensual ageplay?  No, snake, I didn't, you know damn well I didn't, and you know that's not what I meant because you had to add it yourself, you manipulative weasel.

" Trans people are not being petty when they ask for their identities to be respected. It's for their mental health. Mental health is important.


I reject your implicit assertion that unquestioningly accepting someone's psychological claims is a benefit to their mental health.

" It's not infantilization to acknowledge that some people are unable to just become as strong as others can.


It is when it's used as an excuse for lack of personal growth. Not being able to be the best is not a valid excuse for not trying to be the best one can. Allowing a person to think this is abuse.

" They definitely are getting oppressed. There are people who oppress them. That's verifiable.


You oppress them by enabling and encouraging their weakness. Everyone suffers, but your view ensures they never learn to bear it.

"
" folks like yourself, who gain power from weak people by keeping them weak

What power have I gained, that I'm unaware of? If I had power, I would use it for the benefit of the people I care about.
Also, I don't want anyone to be weak.
" using that weakness as a cudgel

How so?


You use it in conversations like this, wielding it as rhetorical cudgel to make yourself seem virtuous. You exploit the people you claim to care about for your own personal social gain.

" Then what did you mean by...
" bending the knee to their whims


Whatever whims they decide to coerce people to accept using their oh-so-precious personality as justification.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm not a snake or a weasel. I'm a hat ghost. I used to be a tiger once, and then a mouse, and then a robot octopus, but never a snake or weasel, or snake-weasel hybrid (hmm, wonder what that would look like?)

" You have taken "X deserves/not deserves Y" and turned it into "X should/not should have Y".

These are not the same

Well then I don't know what your definition of "deserve" is.

And what's your rigid definition of "manipulate"?
Speakers manipulate words into sentences, the way bakers manipulate dough into bread, potters manipulate clay into jars, and florists manipulate flowers into bouquets.

" You pretend to be caring, but your constant twisting of words and snide comments hiding behind the pretense reveals the snake.

You think snakes can't be caring?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkqzl3S2RSk
Also, I do care about trans people, and will defend their rights using whatever methods I can, even tsigtiwn srowd.
And I'm not constantly twisting words. Sometimes I sleep.

" My point is that they are accepting the strict definitions rather than applying their own.  They are implicitly accepting the definitions of the people they oppose by rejecting the labels.

Communication breaks down when two people use two different definitions. Sometimes, it's more pragmatic to say, "If you define 'man' in that way, I'm not a man." Of course, gender non-conforming people are valid too, so someone could also say, "I am a woman, but not the kind of 'woman' you describe."

"
"
" they decide to reject that they are men/women altogether.

And you don't want to respect their decisions? Sounds disrespectful.

Didn't say that

So you inadvertently disrespect their decisions?

" And I won't respect someone's decision to deny physical reality

Trans people say that their gender doesn't match their sex. That, in no way, denies physical reality. Gender is not synonymous with sex.

" Did I say consensual ageplay?

You said "If an adult acts like a child and tells you they are a child, and you play along with them by treating them like a child, you are abusing them" without making a concession for consensual ageplay.

" I reject your implicit assertion that unquestioningly accepting someone's psychological claims is a benefit to their mental health.

Whether you accept the person's claims or not, respecting someone's claims concerning their own psychology would indeed benefit their mental health.

" Not being able to be the best is not a valid excuse for not trying to be the best one can.

Hey, whoa. I never said they shouldn't try. I said that if their best isn't good enough, we should try to make things better for them.

" You oppress them by enabling and encouraging their weakness.

I am neither oppressing them, nor encouraging them to be weak.

" You exploit the people you claim to care about for your own personal social gain.

No. I do what I do for the social gain of the people I care about.

" Whatever whims they decide to coerce people to accept using their oh-so-precious personality as justification.

Again, trans people aren't being trans on a whim. And their personality IS precious. And their mental health justifies others respecting the trans person's identity.
ZwolfJareAlt306
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Individual gender identities are absolutely valid.
What's not is forcing everyone else to accept your reality.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Hmm... what about simply imposing social consequences on those who don't accept you? Like, they can still say shit, just not with impunity.
ZwolfJareAlt306
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Well, I suppose it depends what they say.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Oh, yeah. Like, if a pastor or talkshow host were to tell all their listeners that a whole group of people don't deserve to live, they should be met with something more than just "social consequences."
SqueakyBlum
6 months, 2 weeks ago
What you've done should be much more important than how you think of yourself. A lot of people (that buy into this stuff) convince themselves that "hate" (mockery/criticism) is the reason why they're so miserable all the time.

Which is where, I think, all of this disproportionate malice they aim at others comes from. When you use a lazy cope like gender identity to convince yourself that you're special and accomplished (without ever trying to make something or be someone), you're going to generate a lot of misery, because deep down you know that's not true. And then they take it out on others.

You see this everywhere in furry because we bought into it so hard. Extremely angry people that are seemingly always looking for an excuse to socially beat someone to a pulp as a group over some contrived oopsie. All because they don't understand that happiness comes from genuine accomplishment.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Perhaps you have the privilege of not receiving any of that mockery or criticism, so you haven't felt the misery they bring. Try to have more empathy and understanding.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
He has had far more than you will ever know.
SqueakyBlum
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Though the last couple of years:
- I was made jobless in a stagnant job market by Internet schizos ringing up my boss because I'm a "child molesting neo nazi" or whateverthefuck
- I was forced to sell 12 years worth of possessions to pay rent
- I was eventually forced to spend 4 months in a shelter during Covid
- I had to spend nearly two years dealing with the worst of clinicially-diagnosed PTSD from related experiences

I guess you're right. My life hasn't been *that* bad. It's actually left me with a lot of privilege and that I need to consider the fact that your average trans enby demiqueer acab has it much harder than I do simply for existing in Amerikkka in the current year.

Hun, I've been snickered at online for ~20 years now because I was groomed into some weird kink shit pretty early on and the Internet's always considered that my fault. I know what it's like to be mocked on the Internet way more than most do. It's not a big deal. Grow up. Not everyone is going to like you or be your friend. I'm honestly tired of LBGT+ activists pretending like "getting everyone to like me" is the next rights frontier. It's cringe as fuck.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
So if you know what mockery, criticism, and scorn can do and feel, and it sounds like you do, then why inflict it on others? What is to be gained from it?

Keep in mind not everyone is as hearty as you, and can't be expected to be. You should be compassionate to them.
alistair
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" HattieTheHat wrote:
So if you know what mockery, criticism, and scorn can do and feel, and it sounds like you do, then why inflict it on others? What is to be gained from it?


Point out where Squeaky is "inflicting it on others."  Point out where Squeaky is advocating for "inflicting it on others."  I sure as shit don't see it.

I've seen this multiple times from people on this subject, this thing where questioning or disagreeing is conflated with abuse.  It's dishonest, manipulative bullshit.

" Keep in mind not everyone is as hearty as you, and can't be expected to be. You should be compassionate to them.


This is manipulation, of the kind used by grade school teachers with little children.  Implying that whatever-it-is is being bad, bad, bad! and here-is-why and you-better-agree-with-me.  Except it's entirely empty rhetoric meant to manipulate.
SqueakyBlum
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" HattieTheHat wrote:
So if you know what mockery, criticism, and scorn can do and feel, and it sounds like you do, then why inflict it on others? What is to be gained from it?

Keep in mind not everyone is as hearty as you, and can't be expected to be. You should be compassionate to them.


I'd consider it a compassionate act to discourage people from engaging in a hollow identity cope that will only make them angry and depressed in the long run. Not all kindness is laden with sugar.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
The anger and depression that trans people feel comes from being invalidated and mocked. If they weren't invalidated, they would be a lot less angry and depressed.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" HattieTheHat wrote:
The anger and depression that trans people feel comes from being invalidated and mocked. If they weren't invalidated, they would be a lot less angry and depressed.


I'm sorry, but this is pure and utter bunk.

For the longest time, gays thought that their depression and anger was due to them being invalidated and mocked, and that was why their suicide rate was so high.

Want to know where the highest rate of suicide among gays is? San Francisco. It's not the mocking. It's something much more deep and personal inside.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
" It's something much more deep and personal inside.

And what, pray tell, would that be?
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
A realization that their desires are unproductive? Go nowhere?

See, we forget that the primary purpose of sex is reproduction. Our bodies know this, and so do our minds, but our minds are often traumatized (No, I do NOT believe it is inborn. Just because we don't remember the cause doesn't mean there wasn't one) by early childhood experiences.

It's not a choice, but it's not inborn, either. They know something happened, and they can't remember what.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
The purpose of sex is the purpose the people having it give it. That could be pleasure, could be bonding, could be exercise, could even be combatting boredom. Humans are a social species, so the idea that sex has but one purpose is, frankly, absurd.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Sorry. YOU don't get to decide that. Biology does.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Humans are more complex than that. Humans have minds, and varied desires, and as many reasons for having sex as they have for riding a bike, or lighting a candle, or looking in a mirror.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Humans don't change biology, nor does their decisions obligate me to validate them.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
What reasons to you have for not validating people?
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I. Don't. Need. A. Reason.

I am my own person, and I don't have to validate anyone else's view of themselves, nor of me, nor of anyone else.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Ah, so your disrespect is baseless, got it.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Oh, on the contrary. If you think the ONLY way to show respect is to validate someone, you are sadly mistaken.

I don't have to agree with someone to respect them.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
There is more to respect than just validation, but invalidation is disrespectful, so by not validating someone, you aren't respecting them.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
What utter BULLSHIT!!

Failure to validate does NOT in any shape or form equate to invalidating, any more than failing to condemn something means I enthusiastically endorse it.

You know this, yet use the argument anyway.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
WTF? Are you for real? You gotta be shitting me.

Invalidating means not validating.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
It's not a black and white issue!!

Someone claims that their skin is plaid, and I can clearly see that it is NOT plaid. Am I disrespecting them by not acknowledging that they are plaid?

I can remain silent on the issue, yet still treat them respectfully.

Why do you NOT see this?
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
You're not being silent when you say a name or pronoun, or gendered noun like "boy," "girl," "man," or "woman." And when you say one a person asks you not to, that's disrespectful.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Changing the subject, I see.

Didn't bother to address what I said.

You're wrong. I'm done.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
How do you not see that it's the same subject and does address what you said? Do you have trouble with analogy?

You claimed you could respect someone without validating them. But no, that's wrong. If you invalidate someone, that's disrespectful.

Then you suggest there's a grey area between validating and invalidating. Not really, because invalidating means not validating.

Then you come up with some nonsense about someone saying they have plaid skin? As though that works as an analogy for gender identity? Um, no. It doesn't. And then you say you can just "be silent"? Like, that would mean not using ANY names, pronouns, or gendered nouns, and, c'mon, you'd really do that? It'd be so much clunkier than just using their preferred name and pronouns, though I did notice you using the singular "they," which is fine. But it doesn't work for names.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
If I speak to someone who is trans, I will use the pronoun "You". I will not refer to their sex or gender. I have no reason to. I will treat them with respect.

I will avoid talking about them when I am speaking with anyone else.

THAT is how you show respect without validating their view of themselves.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
And what if a person you're talking to starts talking about a trans person? Do you just end the conversation? Do you try to change the subject?
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 1 week ago
I will cross that bridge if it ever arises. It never has.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I did not say it was the sole reason. I said it was the primary one. The one that many would LOVE to ignore.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Most people use their minds to determine their reasons for their decisions, and can ignore biology. People who only let biology drive their decisions would be rather primitive.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Ignore biology at your peril. It will come back and bite you in the long run.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
That's what you think. Go back to your cave now and make a stone wheel and fire.
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
And the "tolerant" left reveal just how INTOLERANT they are.
alistair
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I like to try to apply Hanlon's Razor to these sorts of things and presume ignorance or incompetence before malice, but once someone refutes a point by throwing snide insults without any actual arguments and starts constantly redefining things willy-nilly in a pretense of debate, that presumption of mere foolishness stops applying.

The person you are arguing with is an admitted Socialist, and like all of that mutant ilk is a dishonest manipulator who will lie to your face with a smirk, then turn around and say the opposite of what they told you to someone else if it suits them.  I say this because I have witnessed it specifically with this person.  There is no convincing, there is no reason, there are only power games to be won by any means necessary, justified by narcissistic self-righteousness.
CaptainKenmason
6 months, 2 weeks ago
>person
<socialist

them's mutually exclusive things lol
MaxDeGroot
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Thank you.
superredfox
5 months, 4 weeks ago
Funny how this person is insulting science, but when the vaccine for the next variant comes out they will trying to push back the "stone" door to the "cave" to get one.
SqueakyBlum
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Not sure how being trans factors into any of this. The trans friends I have don't really attribute their much (if any) of their identity to being trans. They present as their preferred sex, not as "trans". When you ask them who they are, they might answer "I make music" or "I'm an artist". They are some of the more passionate people I know.

There is a big difference between having a personality and coincidentally being trans, VS "trans is who I am" like you see all over Twitter.
HattieTheHat
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I must admit, I don't look at Twitter.
drakar2835
6 months, 2 weeks ago
He, he, you actually have a very nice voice. Should do that book reading out loud things that people can buy... O, the cute cat is smoking! Bad cat you! :-P

OK, this is a topic which kind of came (I was going to use the term "from the left field" like in baseball to mean unexpected, however, using the "left" word here could potentially be misinterpreted, so I will use the flowing instead) out of the blue. Hope you realize that talking about this on a furry website is similar as to walking in the middle of a mine field. My guess is that you probably live in a big city like London or something and have encountered those kinds of people calling themselves "it" to have such strong opinion on them... Frankly, I have never encountered such a person yet, so it's hard for me to give you my feeling about this subject. On the other hand, I think the question should be more, why someone would want to assume a gender identity which does not actually exist. At the same time, I cannot ignore the 800 lb gorilla that is sitting in the room you led us in, which is taking us back to that little mine field with me asking. How about the transgender what is your take on them where do you draw the line? Food for thought. ;-)

O, I can now see that while writing this some mine have already gone off. :-P
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Of course I know it's a minefield, I've been walking through it like this for several years. Stop trying to make guesses about my life when you don't know anything about me, it's tedious XP. I've actually aired my views on transgenderism many times, in journals and submissions. It's not where I live that has given me an awareness of the non-binary idiots, it's being in this fandom, using the internet, which has done that. I was already pilloried over the subject back in 2017.
drakar2835
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Since I have not been a RoareyRaccoon follower for that long, I guess I will have to do some digging into the pass. ;-)
drakar2835
6 months, 2 weeks ago
O... wow, you even had the site owner involved. Nutty cat! :-P
Well, unlike you, while I do agree that it is none sense, they do not really bother or infuriate me in any way. As far as I'm concerned, I'm more into the live and let live state of mind about them, as long as their life decision does not impose anything upon me. We live in a free society after all and if they feel better like that, then great for them. In other words, as long as the govt. or I don't have any obligation toward those people, I don't really care and could even befriend with some of them. However I would be quite offended it the govt had to pay or make special accommodation for those people or if it was imposed upon me to do the same. BTW, I do feel the same about some religious idiocy.
drakar2835
6 months, 2 weeks ago
And Yes I do agree with you that teaching gender as a spectrum none sense as it being the norm to children who are not old enough to have an opinion or know better is quite bad. I would consider that imposition by the govt. However, to be frank, this is the first time I've heard of it. I'm not aware of that being taught by teachers or imposed by the govt. here in my country. Here were being more into teaching religious none sense like the blind acceptance of religion, any religion like if it was all good and no wrong in a way that is very close to indoctrination... It has finally been removed by this last govt.
ZwolfJareAlt306
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Great points!
Mekrokan
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I'd love to be able to voice my opinion out in the open, but I also need to eat and pay bills. If these weren't issues for me I'd start straight up say to their faces. On the internet however it's a different story as I use different aliases for different sites. Even then I hold my tongue as I don't want to get banned from communities for "transphobia." It's pain, man.

HOWEVER ON ANONYMOUS BOARDS I LITERALLY LET'EM HAVE ALL THE HATEFUL, RAGE FILLED THINGS I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THEM. IT GOES ON AND ON PARAGRAPH AFTER PARAGRAPH WOOO IT'S A GOOD RELEASE.

On those, I have some solace, and so do many others.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
So it's only realistic to stand for something important if it carries no tangible risk to yourself? It doesn't matter what you stand to lose, either something is the truth and is worthy of defense, or it isn't.
Mekrokan
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Yeah, it's the truth, they might not want to realize it, but dude I'm not gonna throw away my source of income because of something I believe in unless it's really that important. I've had plenty of Twitter accounts banned, because those aren't as important as food, water, showers, and being presentable just in case I do get terminated for some dumb reason. All my life, I've learned time and time again to keep my mouth shut or else something bad happens to me. I got kicked out of one of my stayings because I said some shit, that got me ganged up on and practically mugged. As much as I agree this is important and it needs to be defended, it's not important to argue against tardos in real life and jeopardize my only source of income. Or even more sources of income in the future. These are the cards I've been dealt, so I gotta do what I gotta do to not get fucked. Now, if I was some multi-millionaire I'd spout this stuff out in the open without fear. Sadly, I'm not.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I've had the same, fucked over all my life for speaking the truth, saying things others didn't want to hear. I still do. If a principle requires no sacrifice then you do not believe in it. The circumstances we are in today are not caused by a minority of scumbags but the majority who don't think standing up against it is worth losing anything important for.
Mekrokan
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I thoroughly believe in it, however you don't rush in and blatantly say unpopular opinions with no backup plans. If I were to just do that if asked what I think about trans stuff and answered honestly, I'd get ground up like a mfer. My boss would cut my hours until i quit or would straight up lie about my performance and fire me, my peers would spread all kinds of shit about me, and I'd be left with nothing. What then? Do I just pick myself up by my bootstraps? Nope. I have no more straps, they will have cut my straps. So I am left with nothing. I don't know how homelessness is in the Kingdom, but over here it's bunking with the crazies that will kill you or beat you just for being gay. It's a harsh world over here across the pond. Debunking troons is not worth losing a home, man. Especially since I've worked all the way to get to where I am

Now, attending a rally is something vastly different and is something I would happily do, provided I got the time and cash to attend a trip to wherever it is. But the closest thing that's ever been like that was... I don't think there was. Huh.

Just remember: You might be okay with losing everything, but not everyone else wants to go through homelessness round 2 with a worse reputation than what you had the first time around.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
That's the attitude men had in WW2, was it?
Mekrokan
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Nope, they were all HOORAH until they got shredded on some beach in France by heavy machinegun fire.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Yeah, they lost didn't they. Point is, you're not facing anything anywhere near what they did. You do you, but don't expect me to think what you're displaying isn't cowardice.
Mekrokan
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Cowardice? Is that what being smart is to you? Look well at this comment, you dumbass old man. Cowardice is running away from something that's easily fixable or easily survivable, this isn't. You think what you have is bravery, but no, it's sheer stupidity. In the last journal you mentioned some are not your moral equal, yet I see that you're almost as low as them. You can't seem or rather refuse to see that in order to LIVE I need a job, I don't get welfare stamps or whatever is your dumbass old body gets in the check every month. One slip up and there goes what I need to live. My community here is tight nit so word travels fast and I won't be able to work anywhere because of some idiotic PR move. "Oh we don't let bigots work here!" That is something you're too retarded to understand, not brave enough to face something thats trivial in the grander scheme of 1 person's life. Don't even bother reply, old fart.
RoareyRaccoon
6 months, 2 weeks ago
You think you're brave by refusing the speak the truth because you fear the consequences? Cowardice is just so. It's as simple as that.
Wolfblade
6 months, 1 week ago
Courage is not facing that which is easily conquered, while running from fights that aren't a certain victory.

Cowardice is precisely that.

Doing what you believe to be right - but only when there is no risk - is not courage. It's not EVEN upholding your principles of what you believe to be right or not. There is no particular merit or valor or any virtue of consequence when you do what bears no consequence and is a certain and easy win. That's what any automaton would be necessarily programmed to do.

Backing down from what your claimed principles believe to be right or true, because standing for them might lead to some negative consequence or strife or struggle that is not a certain easy safe victory - IS COWARDICE. That is what being a coward IS - only fighting when you have no real expectation of anything but an easy win.

Courage is taking the action you believe to be the right action specifically when there IS some possibility of failure or loss or consequence or struggle that is not a foregone victory.

Courage does not mean being stupid. It does not mean walking into >absolute certain< death.

But "being smart" does not mean hiding and running from all possibility of any loss or conflict.

That is what he means. He has experienced tremendous personal loss and strife for nothing other than standing by what he believes to be right. Perhaps that is why he did not respond favorably to someone seeming to attempt to establish a common ground for holding similar beliefs, when that person also expresses being an absolute coward and only able to voice those beliefs when no possible reaction could befall him.

That IS cowardice. Plain and simple.
LongTom
6 months, 2 weeks ago
Dave Chapelle on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvizB4D1g4Y
Mvindo
6 months, 2 weeks ago
a lot can be said about stuff like this but ultimately a person gets to choose who they want to be. nobody has to stay in their box. that's the beauty of individualism :)
LongTom
6 months, 2 weeks ago
I remember this from years ago, and why it took so long for the police to solve it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown%27s_Chicken_massacre
superredfox
5 months, 4 weeks ago
Great to see you back again Roarey.
WhiteSnowRose
4 months, 3 weeks ago
I'm none binary
CareBear
4 months, 1 week ago
The validation tango! 🦩
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