Inkbunny

"	Wicked phenomenon, yes? But, you know, it’s not any more "evil" than, say… fire. It all depends on your point of view. Try to get a better understanding of things before you make your judgement.

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

it was no judgement. and as is said, not offensive. and as you mention it: my point of view is a very diffferent than yours. try to see things from different angles. i am no artist, so i definitely have another point of view than you as an artist.
i think it's good to know that your work is awesome and worth a lot. but also it's good to stay on the ground.

"	I wouldn't draw for anyone, unless for artists.

is kind of an derogatory statement for all non-artists. everyone has it's own area where he/she is reaching high levels. to say "i won't draw for non-artists" would be like a programmer who says "i wouldn't not programm for non-programmers" or a musician who says "i wouldn't makle music for non-musicians".

i hope you get what i try to say in my broken english^^
i love your arts. keep up the good work and don't get snooty :)

RevenantWairu

12 years, 2 months ago

link

true enough.
well then...
what do you suggest to say instead of that questionable part?

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"i wouldn't draw for anyone, unless he pays me" would probably hit it. i for my part wouldn't programm for anyone (except for close friends), unless he pays me :D

RevenantWairu

12 years, 2 months ago

link

programming is easy because it requires no complex visual imagination in spheres and not to mention programmers are building by existing blocks, the so called "classes" and making instances of them, inheritages and connections. It's simple: building by blocks. All they need is a logical and systematic building skill.
I certainly know what programming skill takes: I'm studying as a software developer but looks like I might want a something lightweight way of it, like webdeveloping or something.
Art is different. It varies. Art is your world, putting your heart out.
This world ruins its essence with the power of knowledge "you need to sacrifice your hobby soon if you want to stay alive" and especially where I live in a country. Monetar power takes their effect on it and I saw many artist ruining their fine skills by the need for other's money by it and why they got unwatched from my side. A very sad but true story.

I know a friend as my classmate who auto-didact learned to program in Objective-C and customers often hires him as a freelancer, and he told me many times it's such an unpleasant moment to know when your customer asks you: what could be the deadline for you? he claimed "I don't know, it'sl ike I'd ask you to invent the warp engine. Okay. When will you finish it? Perhaps tomorrow, perhaps a year ago." the point is that it all depends on how well he feels for that and he seems to have a burnout of it already even if he earned a bunch of money that he couldn't even think of where to spend it yet.

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

you just showed that you have no clue about what a programmer is doing^^
it's not like you put some classes together and haveyour work done. you have to imagine a way to transform input information to output inforation, depending on what you do. algorithms can be so way more complex than most artworks. every single programm is completely different than the last one.
while you're painting, you have to worry about color combinations and draw lines like you imagine it.
while programming you have to worry about the way you get the algorithm to do what you want, to keep the cpu usage and ram usage low, you have to imagine all the ways the user could do incorrect input, you have to worry that certain operating systems may fuck stuff up and you have to catch errors without having your programm crashed and very much more. sure, there are lots of ressources and examples on the net. but you never have exactly the same thing to do. you always have to develop something new and different.

i could ask you to draw a horse for me. you could do that and it would be very easy for you.
you could ask me to implement an algorithm to calculate the greatest common divisor of two numbers, typed in by the user. i could do it and it would be very easy for me.
now let me try drawing the horse, and you try to implement that algorithm.

so, to say it is easyer isn't possible. especially because the two things we are comparing are very different. but both are skills that have to be learned, and bot things need a big lot of talent and love.
as someone who doesn't know much about drawing, i could say drawig is much easyer than doing complex algorithms, as you say programming is easyer than drawing. but i don't. because i have some respect for other peoples work. sadly, you obviously don't.

RevenantWairu

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"	you just showed that you have no clue about what a programmer is doing

- That was harsh.
It's easier at some point, but definitelly don't because programming still makes me kick in the back. It's problem solving to say it in a lot easier term.
However I do aggree at the point of comparing which is easier at areas, but by thinking art is a lot easier: it isn't. It took me ages to evolve and find the path I was looking for, also open my eyes for a different world, to learn break the rules and set myself free. The method of how you do and finally acchieving a visual of how you imagined it originally makes me/you/let_it_be_anyone happy. I had these same feelings when I first found out the solutions to acchieve an algorythm.

"	because i have some respect for other peoples work. sadly, you obviously don't.

- Now this sounded offense. Passive but still offending. I tried to respect anyone as I could, but only viewing the point how I fail takes more self esteem away than how low I am already at it.
I'm afraid you're nearing to a state where you judge me really wrong. I wish I could prove otherwise but since english is not my native language, I can't really defend myself in english. The variety of forming hungarian thoughts into english gives me difficulties, yet I manage to form some basic sentences which I'm still happy with.

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"	Jackrow wrote:
	- That was harsh.

sorry :)

"	Jackrow wrote:
	- Now this sounded offense

again, sorry. i often hear that i'm an passive-agressive type. don't wanted to offent you tough. it was a bit late in the night when i read you'r last post and thought it was offensive enough to give an little-offensive answer...

"	Jackrow wrote:
	I'm afraid you're nearing to a state where you judge me really wrong. I wish I could prove otherwise

you just did.

"	Jackrow wrote:
	but since english is not my native language, I can't really defend myself in english. The variety of forming hungarian thoughts into english gives me difficulties, yet I manage to form some basic sentences which I'm still happy with.

i guess it's the same for me. english is a pretty hard language. and german thoughts are (obviously.....) not that easy to transform into english sentences, too :P

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link

That seems like a more self-righteous point of view; an attempt at making the consumer feel important. But your examples are not as universal as you seem to think. The musician maybe, but not so much the programmer. To my knowledge there is not quite as much "self-expression" involved in programming.

There's a thing in art called "synergy". For a lot of artists/musicians, it's much easier to create when you have other creators to bounce off of; other people that know your craft. I'm both an artist and musician and I can say I played my best music when other people were making music with me, and my best artwork comes from collaborations.
Money does not produce synergy, but that is usually all the nonartist can provide. It's useful, but some people just can't create on that alone. In my 14 years of doing commissions, I have found I can very easily get burned out creating for money, but I have never gotten burned out from synergy. Collaborations and trades and group projects are in general emotionally more fun to work on.

Not every artist is trying to sell themselves, so the "nonartist", the "consumer", is useless in that scenario. There is rarely, if ever, room for creative expression in paid work. However, it's encouraged in trades and collaborations.

I don't think it's snooty in any way. Like Jackrow said in the first place, it's a difference in perspective.

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

hmm. there is much more self-expression involved than you might think. i love to compare my code with code from my fellow students. and i love to be known as the one who did the most performant code. and i love it when my buddies come to me and say "maan your code is brilliant, i'd like to use it for [...]".

it's kind of sad that no one is interested in the programmers. all the programms that you use are taken as natural. the amount of work gathered in simple programms are never honored by anyone. but still the programmers are proud of their products. one of my product got sold around 2k times (android app, not worth much, but it still gave me a little financial boost^^). i couldn't be more proud about that one. it's like my child has got an high degree with summa cum laude.

sure, in an artist dominated surrounding, every other hobby/job/timekiller is under the niveau of arts. as a non-artist i know that. and i try to maintain nice and i generally have respect for what you do. but you should also have some respect for the others.

and just by the way. it's not possible to say "programming is an weaker league" ....its a whole other game :D

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link

Edited 12 years, 2 months ago by Owner

I was worried there might be some miscommunication there.
I do not think programmers are above or below anyone. Hell, I was a programmer back in the 90's before switching my major to art. As you said, I just feel it's a different league altogether and is not a fair juxtiposition to art. In fact it seems to go against the point you are trying to make.

Any average joe can look at a picture and decide if they like it or not, but not everyone can look at code and know what it is. They can look at what the code does, but it's a very distinctive "Either works, or it doesn't" without much middleground. It would take another programmer looking at the code to know if it's good or bloated.
I also wonder how much of coding can be considered "putting your heart and soul" into it? I know none of my coding ever did. It was mostly puzzle-solving, and I was proud of what I did, but there was nothing in there that said "this defines my subconcious" or something of the like. I didn't put any specific emotion into my coding because it doesn't work like that. You solved puzzles to get the optimal efficiency and performance. Art, however, relies a LOT on emotion. There are pros and cons to both, really, but again, I do not feel they are comparable.

Half my friends are artists, the other half are coders. Personally, I have a great respect for what coders do, but then I have personal experience to know what goes into it. Not everyone can even comprehend it.

This is definitely a huge digression from the point I was making, but I can see what sparked it.

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"	Syrinoth wrote:
	I also wonder how much of coding can be considered "putting your heart and soul" into it? I know none of my coding ever did. It was mostly puzzle-solving, and I was proud of what I did, but there was nothing in there that said "this defines my subconcious" or something of the like.

right. that's why you stopped it. i for my part are very emotional, considering things i do. puzzle solving might be a little part of it, but the main focus lies on the code itself. and it doesn't need a coder to see how good the result is, if you use photoshop (or whatever), you see the programm works good, it does things right. so the coders did a good job on it. (how the code looks is not the main thing^^ .......i saw some parts of the code of photoshop in a programming project-lesson....it's awesomely crappy...but it does what it needs to do)

but it doesn't really matter. because as you say, it's not comparable. this conversation is pretty much away from topic (which i like, because arguing with people always gives you something to think and something to learn).
the point that matters is that i'd like to buy art from jack one day. but i can't, because he wouldn't take commissions from me because i'm not an artist. which makes me a bit sad/upset...

maybe i see it from a wrong angle. maybe it's the fact that he thinks a non-artist couldn't honor his work. which would be an even bigger misstake than what my first thought was. because i (and i bet as good as anyone who uses sites like this) am definitely able to honor a good artists work.

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link

Edited 12 years, 2 months ago by Owner

That had nothing to do with my decision to switch over to art. Please avoid making assumptions, because you couldn't be any further from the truth.

Let me try this: Art is storytelling, while programming is engineering. Your emotion does not read through your code. You can't look at a program and go "Yeah, the coder was totally feeling forlorn".

Ah, I think you are very much misinterpreting what Jack meant. He doesn't want to work for money at all. I'm sure he meant drawing for fun, trades, or collaborations with other artists (Which he explains in response further down). He didn't mean exclusively letting artists pay him for art. I see how his wording can be read as that though.

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"	Syrinoth wrote:
	That had nothing to do with my decision to switch over to art. Please avoid making assumptions, because you couldn't be any further from the truth.

at that poin't i'm still searching for the point you took it up

"	Syrinoth wrote:
	Let me try this: Art is storytelling, while programming is engineering. Your emotion does not read through your code. You can't look at a program and go "Yeah, the coder was totally feeling forlorn".

at this point i see what you meant. and yes, but you also don't see how much work and which emotions are in a piece of art (ok, some show very much emotion, but most works don't)

"	Syrinoth wrote:
	Ah, I think you are very much misinterpreting what Jack meant. He doesn't want to work for money at all. I'm sure he meant drawing for fun, trades, or collaborations with other artists (Which he explains in response further down). He didn't mean exclusively letting artists pay him for art. I see how his wording can be read as that though.

at this point the question is what jack really meant. and yes, i might have misinterpreted it.

.....anyways, it was nice to argue with you (thanks for your time^^). mostly people are pretty unpatient when it comes to an argue...i hope you think the same way about that conversation :)

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"	Locutus wrote:
	at this point i see what you meant. and yes, but you also don't see how much work and which emotions are in a piece of art (ok, some show very much emotion, but most works don't)

I think something is very wrong if a work doesn't show any emotion, unless it's something like concept art where you've got five different versions of a truck. If the picture is supposed to invoke or portray an emotion and doesn't, that's an example of a failed piece of art.

"	Locutus wrote:
	.....anyways, it was nice to argue with you (thanks for your time^^). mostly people are pretty unpatient when it comes to an argue...i hope you think the same way about that conversation :)

It was a pleasure debating with you :) It's always interesting to hear new viewpoints outside my own head!

RevenantWairu

12 years, 2 months ago

link

Ah, I think you are very much misinterpreting what Jack meant. He doesn't want to work for money at all. I'm sure he meant drawing for fun, trades, or collaborations with other artists (Which he explains in response further down). He didn't mean exclusively letting artists pay him for art. I see how his wording can be read as that though.

THIS

all explains it.

RevenantWairu

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"	the point that matters is that i'd like to buy art from jack one day. but i can't, because he wouldn't take commissions from me because i'm not an artist. which makes me a bit sad/upset...

- This stunned me.

To understand more why I decided to stop accepting comissions I let you know that I have been experiencing more comissioners wanted to hire me up which was at first: ok sure, I'll do it. But then more and more people came and wanted to hire me. Ok, this doesn't work, let me establish a queue. It worked seemingly. Then people asked to put them to the next line in following the actual queue. Le sigh whatever sure you're in - I said. But then more and more lines were stacking. This was a neverending story. I wanted break without any thoughts of "You need to do it someday."
Ok let me admit it that money is really a good income to my wallet without any tax, that's pretty awesome, but I'm not just a tool, I'm yet a living being who needs their break and it doesn't mean literally, but its mental. I need mental breaks too. Considering I suspected to have BPD with OCD it really gives a big difficulties to focus calmly on things. I often find myself about to crunch things in sadness. Somehow the body's mind tries to give a distress signal that is something wrong. This was it. I needed to force-quit it for a long while.

I've never said I quit "forever". I only said I'd do rather for artists right now. If it offended you, I'm really sorry, I didn't meant to. I don't know when I hurt people or not, I try not to because I'm really an arguing avoider. Each arguing makes me emotionally unstable and often end with a high blood pressure with frequent heartbeat. It's especially bed when I needed to focus on subjects. Today it was somewhat fine since I had nothing really to do, but still I try not to engage in general.
Perhaps you might be jealous/upset of what I've said about non-artist thing. I understand and I apologize.

Perhaps in the future I might think of you in comissions, but I can't promise... I'm really stressed and I don't want to think of comissions right now. I'm sorry.

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

"	Jackrow wrote:
	Perhaps you might be jealous/upset of what I've said about non-artist thing. I understand and I apologize.

not anymore :) as i can see, our little argue gave you a little understanding of my point of view, as well as i learned something about yours. that's why i like arguments (if they keep on the ground).

"	Jackrow wrote:
	but I'm not just a tool

omg! i'd never think of calling an artist a "tool for arts" O.O
to pay someone for artworks is not like paying someone to clean your yard or something like that. it's more like paying for pulling your idea into the real word and let other people have their fun with your idea. especially if you're not capable doing it by yourself (as i am, considering arts)

"	Jackrow wrote:
	Perhaps in the future I might think of you in comissions, but I can't promise... I'm really stressed and I don't want to think of comissions right now. I'm sorry.

i'm glad to hear the first and sad about you being stressed (and hell...i know stress....ok, maybe not in this form...).
but you definitely don't need to be sorry. not to an random stranger in the internet, and not for your situation.

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link

Edited 12 years, 2 months ago by Owner

Here's a better example that illustrates our side of it:

Which would be more fun: Playing video games you enjoy with a bunch of your buddies? Or playing games you may not enjoy, alone in a cubicle, for money?

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

sure. but that has pretty much nothing to do with what i wanted to say.
to put it on you'r example:
if two of your friends aren't artists, would you play together with them?
(jack's answer would be "no" in the statement that i criticised)

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link

Better worded, if two of your friends weren't "gamers", would want to game with them? Or would you rather game with your gamer friends?

Locutus

12 years, 2 months ago

link

if they want, sure. and if a non-artist wants to buy art from jack, why shouldn't he take the commission just because the commissioner is not an artist? isn't that kind of....hmm.....i don't want to say racist (because it's not racist in the common sense of the word.....but somehow i still felt offensed by "Even if people would pay for its price decently I wouldn't draw for anyone, unless for artists.".....i guess there is a better word, but my english isn't the very best^^)...

Quiet269

12 years, 2 months ago

link

No matter your talents, you can never hide from your mind.

Things happen, you cannot force your hand. Figure out what you want to do, and get it done. If that means leaving art forever... that's what happens.

If it means laying around on your rump for a month without a care in the world, that's what happens =P

Have fun with life. If you're doing something just because you can, and have no joy it in... it doesn't really seem like something worth doing... and if you're burnt out on it, you're likely a lot farther down the path than just doing it because you can.

RevenantWairu

12 years, 2 months ago

link

@ Quiet269

"	If that means leaving art forever... that's what happens.

Nada.
Art is just for my own entertainment, the last thing which can show me sometimes I Still worth something.

Quiet269

12 years, 2 months ago

link

That wasn't to say that's what you're going to do; or are doing. I'm just saying that if that was what it brought about, so be it. =)

If you want to simply draw what you want to draw and when you want to draw it... never doing another commission... then that's what you should do. You don't -have- to take commissions, a lot of artists don't. Even more simply cannot due to circumstance.

Draw for your own entertainment, for a stress relief, or just for fun. Don't try to force it into a box it doesn't fit into.

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link

Could just be seasonal depression. A lot of artists experience it around this time of year in the form of burnout or a general malaise that is difficult to work through. My roommate and I are personally dealing with the latter. We've been trying various things like vitamins, sun lamps, and just eating proper foods, but so far no luck. We have the desire to draw, but not the physical or mental energy to do so. Is this similar to what you're feeling or something different?

RevenantWairu

12 years, 2 months ago

link

I'd bet it's more than seasonal depression. I think I face it every day nowadays, I could just manage to hide it pretty well till now.
It's like... money can no longer satisfy me in exchange of what I produce as artwork. I put my heart and soul into what I create because I want to see what I've never seen before, it's like opening a portal to a different world where you can relax or something. Getting me do something I didn't want to however in exchange of money which is the converted effort from some other people's job they used to earn it by doesn't do the same.
As you stated in your previous replies synergy: That's what I might be hungering for. To find the commons and have fun with it.

Syrinoth

12 years, 2 months ago

link