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RoareyRaccoon

A call for sanity.

First off, this isn't about me and it isn't about politics. It doesn't matter whether you lean left or lean right, conservative or liberal, this extremist infighting has got to stop. I know that most of you don't like any of this, that we're supposed to be a fandom of people who love art and creativity. We've got dozens of wonderful conventions every year, huge networks of artists and fans. It's an accepting community, where you can be your nerdy, weirdo self and nobody is going to give you hell for it. At least that's what it's supposed to be.

I like talking about politics, I like getting discussions going, I'm not some troll who loves upsetting people (I only troll people who attack me). But I've been thinking far too politically, I've missed the true nature of what's going on. The far left and far right are in a constant conflict, continually trying to out-smear the other and the rest of us are getting dragged along for the ride.

I'm writing this as a plea, for people who are tired of this relentlessly judgemental atmosphere, of political infighting and smearing. I can handle the fact that people have it in for me because I've made provocative cartoons and journals for years, but this is too important for all that. This community matters more than who is right or wrong politically. What matters is that we are each individuals who all have our part to play in what makes furry such a fantastic, wonderful thing. Right now it's being poisoned and people are really feeling it.

If you're a popular artist or if you're one of our many great patrons, if you're part of this community and you're worried about where it's going, please say something. Please, please stand up for what we have and don't let it go down the plughole. The 20th century saw the whole world torn apart by the far left and far right and we've all seen the same two demons rising again in society. It's spreading into everything and it has to stop before it gets so bad we lose everything that's important. I'm scared shitless, I won't lie to you. If you feel as I do, I'm not asking you to join a club or support a side, please speak up, we all need to hear you and see you. I don't care if you're left or right, this is about having a place where we can be left and right in the first place.

If you have some popularity and pull in this fandom, please use the position you have rightly worked hard for to spread some calm and sanity. I'm worried we're just going to tear ourselves apart and this community needs you.
Viewed: 584 times
Added: 6 years, 8 months ago
 
KennyKitsune
6 years, 8 months ago
*huggles gently and pets softly*
nekkofox
6 years, 8 months ago
I'll throw my hat into the huggles ring.
FosterLightdweller
6 years, 8 months ago
Me too.
TeaPartyRabbit
6 years, 8 months ago
I find it ironic that the hate groups flared up when you posted that picture.  It's either bad timing, or you have more power than you realize.
snofox
6 years, 8 months ago
I wish I could fave journals...
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Make one, seriously. Just express that you're tired of all this, you can link to it in here or whatever, what's important is that as many people as believe this actually say so.
MaxDeGroot
6 years, 8 months ago
Paraphrased and reposted on as many places as I can. This is cathartic.
Alondite
6 years, 8 months ago
I hate how politics and social justice have infested this fandom, dividing everyone.

There is even a blacklist going around for "Nazi-Furries", where basically every Furry who is somewhat right-leaning, or against any social justice ideology, is put on. ~.~

Furry Drama. So much Furry Drama.
matthegamer
6 years, 8 months ago
I've mentioned before that the only thing that insane protesters are actually good at is taking their clothes off. Nothing's changed.
EstebanG
6 years, 8 months ago
...and the less toned the flesh, the more inclined they are to do so.  Blecch!
DerpBowlWelf
6 years, 8 months ago
I first joined this furry community a few years back under the slogan "we are more than a fandom, we're a family", for some time it did was like that, an accepting community and I made some great friends, friends I'm hoping to keep for the rest of my days. But now... it's crazy, just crazy, people attack each other over nothing, they throw insults at each other like drunken sailors cursing. These days it's like no one listens to anyone, groups of every ideology are made by the minute with seemingly the sole purpose to antagonize and bash another group. What is the point of all this? seriously, a clear answer is what I'd like to have but, that seems impossible nowadays.
MaximilianUltimata
6 years, 8 months ago
This is the insanity I've seen coming for well over a decade now, and I've been fighting against the madness all I could.
GreenFur
6 years, 8 months ago
welcome to the club my friend that is why i got out of california 20 years ago it was getting crazy then and it is only accelerating over that time i think 'Calexit' is a good thing personally it will mean a net gain of 4.4% on the federal budget but that is for another discussion.
between "Identity politics" and pervasive "Social Justice" is censoring free speech everywhere it can, if only to silence any and all who do not agree with their hive minded narrative.
"Feels"  are NOT  Facts.
--GF
MaximilianUltimata
6 years, 8 months ago
I don't really see that where I live. Never have, really, and I live in the Inland Empire, the artery close to one of the hearts of California.

The consistent theme I DO see, though, is the theme where how a person feels overrides what reality and research shows to be the better path to follow. Even though right-wing extremist violence is a much more prevalent threat in the US than attacks by ISIS, people still fear ISIS much more than they do the extreme right. My third day at one of my jobs was close to where the San Bernardino shooting took place, and most of that day I spent trying to dissuade customers' fears through my knowledge about the patterns of mass shootings (and aside from the suspects being Muslim, the pattern was identical to almost every other mass shooting in recent memory). As John Oliver said in his piece about Sinclair Broadcasting, it's important that we do our due research into verifying sources, especially if they confirm our biases, because of the campaign of malinformation we are up against.

A lot of good has come from California's progressivism, though, and we have a far reaching influence thanks to Hollywood and Silicon Valley.
GreenFur
6 years, 8 months ago
i do not see groups like "ANTIFA"  and "BLM" classified as "right-wing extremists" just look who carried out the Berkeley riots? the LA riots, I could go on, the list is long but you get the idea...
you say...
"A lot of good has come from California's progressivism, though, and we have a far reaching influence thanks to Hollywood and Silicon Valley."

can you name a few things you see as "good" coming out of  them, aside from a flagrant disregard for the rule of law?
What one may call "progressiveisam," others may call Regressive, especially in the area of personal freedoms and the second amendment in the golden state.
--GF
IBp
IBp
6 years, 8 months ago
I'm finding most of the very large popular figures in the fandom either are neutral, or very far leftist.
The hard right seem to be a reactionary thing to the artists pushing venomous "everyone who isn't this far left is a nazi" shit.
Either way, it's not a correct reaction mind you, but I don't see many right-wing folks in big positions using said position to try and dehumanize everyone left-wing. So it really seems to be more one-sided of a problem.
Again : Not that either is right, one just seems to have significantly more pull with people.

It's very much a mutual thing, but one side holds so much more social power in the fandom than the other. I don't see them giving that control up unless they start to seriously get hurt financially or end up socially isolating themselves for their positions.  Problem is, majority of furs are indoctrinated left due to their age range, so I don't see it ever impacting them enough for them to open their eyes.

But god damn, we might as well try. Thanks for the journal.
AloofPeacock
6 years, 8 months ago
So much this.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 8 months ago
agreed. Im pretty well and turly nuetral but every time i speak up in defence of moderation and takeing a look at the whole picture im called a nazi, a transphobe, an islamophobe, a facist.

it's gotten to the point that these words are starting to lose meaning, when there just flung about as petty unfounded insults.
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
And this is why there are so many self proclaimed actual nazis now. People are less and less afraid of it because of the jackasses that cry nazi for anything. The far left is the greatest recruiter for the far right
Taonas
6 years, 8 months ago
And that's what worries me; I see what you see, a lot of (reasonable, non-extremist) people getting called nazi's, some kinda 'ism, or 'phobe. And right now my facebook is flooded with people going "violence to end violence is okay", and "punch a nazi in the face!". I feel these people don't really realize the seriousness of what they are saying. But then again, to go against it seems to be social suicide right now.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 8 months ago
this is reds vs brown shirts all over again and it';s scareing the hell out of me
BrokenPupper
6 years, 8 months ago
At least you don't get kicked out of this website for it, but sure criticism and the inability to explain your own statements is what scares you. :/
BrokenPupper
6 years, 8 months ago
Wanna know what else loses meaning in a jiffy? Saying "Social Justice Warrior".
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 8 months ago
social justice is not a new concept, we used to just call them lynch mobs.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 8 months ago
dude seriously?

nobodies kicked off the site for anything less then a gross violation of the rules. based off your comments your pretty hard left wich is useualy a sign you have no idea what your talking about, same could be said for hard right wingers so let me put this whole thing to bed right now so I can determin if it's worth my time to speak to you again


Do you think it's Ok to punch a nazi in the face, even if said Nazi is not engaged in violence?
Delquea
6 years, 8 months ago
Quick, replace Nazi with Radical Muslim and see if it still okay LOL
Masakados
6 years, 8 months ago
snofox
6 years, 8 months ago
GreenReaper
6 years, 8 months ago
snofox
6 years, 8 months ago
absolutely nothin' :3
moyomongoose
6 years, 8 months ago
I remember that song about the time I got kicked out of middle school. It was real popular during the Vietnam War.
Vuk91
6 years, 8 months ago
American politics is basically fucked up, and the fandom is prone to be dragged into that thing due to it's promise for love and acceptance. This is a sad age to be a furry, knowing that the community I entered to better myself, to actually get over my homophobia and stuff, just so happens to feed into ideas that LGBT people of the time I was a homophobic ass would feel embarassed about, calling their successors idiots. I mean, come on, Gay people enjoyed life in America during that time. The homophobic political athmosphere was gone, the only reminder of such was, You guessed it, young, bigoted trolls like I was, and Christian Church Pastors that have nothing better to do than vomit bible-verses.

I can remember the 2001 september 11 attacks still, when George W. Bush was president. I don't care what the conspiracy freaks say about that event, and I threw away the idea of political betrayal, no one can deny that America at least was not all about Nazis and Liberals fighting against each other online, offline, on the streets, wherever. The Nazi sympathizers were a mere cult that honestly should have been shut down by the SWAT or the FBI, as well, and the feminists that today blame everything on Men in general were taken far less seriously. I miss those times when my problem was not to evaluate this political chaos thrown at Me Online, but to play with my toys, making up new worlds of adventure wher Team Eagle would battle the evil Team Attack -why that name, tho?- so I wasn't as stressed out by trying to make sense out of things.

If something isn't done soon, I'm afraid we can look forward to a dystopian future...

By the way, I'm a centrist apparently.
GreenFur
6 years, 8 months ago
They weren't "LIBERALS" they were red flag waving COMMUNISTS!  hell bent on overthrowing the country.
i say call a spade a spade and label them accurately. Antifa are nothing but FACISTS. even if they able themselves "Anarco-communists" as they see anyone to the right of chairman Mao to be a "Nazi" what you are seeing played out on the streets of america is the same thing you saw plays out on the streets of Germany in the 20's and 30's
nationalists stood up top them then, and they are standing up to them now,does being proud of your country make you a national socialist? i doubt it what i saw was white people standing up saying "enough is enough" tired of the decade of being vilified for all that is wrong with the world.
the latest attack  on the "war on white people" being waged by the left in this country. i see this so called "Silent majority starting to wake up and taking a stand against identity politics, political correctness and the regressive policies of the far left in this country.

As furries we should be above this, we come together because of our appreciation of anthropomorphic art why do people have to drag Identity politics into it?
--GF
AphroditeDraco
6 years, 8 months ago
I'm afraid that my life inside the furry community is pretty much over.  Probably been flagged as a nazi just because I think that sucker punching nazis on street corners is just as wrong as sucker punching anyone else on the same street corners is, and because I dared think that Trump should be given a chance to do his job rather than immediately impeaching him just because he won the election.  Reminding the far left that they're just as bad as the far right only gets you screamed at, harassed, and threatened.  They treat the mere words of their opponents like bullets and their own violence like it's some kind of "self-defense."

I'm not a nazi just because I believe in a nazi's constitutional right to free speech and freedom of expression, but since when are violent crybabies and bigots ever swayed by facts?  Someone mentioned a Furry Nazi Blacklist further up in the comments.  I wouldn't be surprised if I'm on it, and I'm not even a popular artist or anything.  I also happen to be more left than right, but that don't matter to those idiots.  All they care about is destroying anyone who doesn't think identically to them, and since I think differently than they do...

I suppose I could write something about this in my own journal, but I fear that very few people will ever read it.

EDIT:  I should probably add here that it saddens me to no end that I've come to this conclusion about myself in the furry community, because the furry community was the very first online community to ever treat me like a valid person.  Writing communities, Otherkin communities, various other spiritual communities, I got treated pretty badly by all of them.  There's a couple Otherkin ones that treat me better now but it was furry community that holds the honor of the very first one to accept me as I am.  That makes the realization that I'm pretty much dead in the water as a furry all the more painful to me.
AloofPeacock
6 years, 8 months ago
This is pretty much my experience. The Far Right, bad opinions though they have, aren't actively trying to destroy lives. The Far Left in the fandom is just cancer.
GreenFur
6 years, 8 months ago
here here, look at who is causing the violence and it is ALWAYS the far left.
--GF
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 8 months ago
my same experience exactly! I Keep gtting shit for being
anti punching"
Canido
6 years, 8 months ago
Extremism tends to be louder than sanity and reason. If it weren't, I'm convinced it would have died out a long time ago. If it weren't so constant and consistently tragic, it'd be funny. That isn't to say it's not dying though. Things like "left wing" and "right wing" will change meanings with time, but they'll always exist. As such, so will extremism. Part of it is just human nature to want things to be simple even when they're not. But when I look at human history, culture and ideas, I can't help but acknowledge how much trial and error we as a society have been through. As loud as the extremists get, time has consistently shown that we're getting better. Barring a world-ending cataclysm, we will survive. We will adapt. Then one day down the road the extreme sides will look moderate to us.

Good on you, Roarey for keeping something important in mind throughout this experience.
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
Maybe do research that is based off more than YouTube videos and people won't get upset.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
This isn't about me. Its about the atmosphere in the fandom, its shit for everybody. The fact that people can react to a cartoon as if they'd been physically punched is the problem to begin with. Maybe you should think about that and do some of your own soul searching.
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
"This isn't about me."
It was your post, wasn't it?

"The fact that people can react to a cartoon as if they'd been physically punched is the problem to begin with."
So you're offended that others are offended?

And weren't you asking for donations? That's the kind of thing people with physical injuries do. Maybe the "physically punched" statement is a bit of projection.

Simple solution to all this, be aware of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Your take on transgender and non-binary identity is about as important as a pastor's take on the theory of evolution or my take on aircraft carrier engineering. The only difference is that this is people's lives you're talking about, not a scientific theory or a ship.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Not interested.
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
Not interested.


In facts? Yep, sounds about right.
GreenFur
6 years, 8 months ago
you know who also over reacts or cartoons?
Radical jihadists.
--GF
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" GreenFur wrote:
you know who also over reacts or cartoons?
Radical jihadists.
--GF


Death toll over Jyllands-Posten and Charlie Hebdo cartoons: 23
American trans people killed in 2016: 27
Death toll over this cartoon: Your fee fees and a slight decline in revenue from drawing porn.
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
So terrorists killed almost as many cartoonist in one afternoon as the entirety of US trans fatalities in a year over a cartoon. How can you seriously make this comparison and think it helps your case...
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
A) That wasn't in one afternoon.

B) There are less trans people than cisgendered people.

C) The number of trans people killed is for only one country in only one year.

D) What exactly did you think my case was?
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
The US population in 2016 was over 322.6m. The trans population over 1.4m.
27 / 1,400,000 is 0.001929%
That is a incredibly low fatality rate. Like I personally didn't think that trans people were getting killed very much and I still would of predicted a higher rate.

Maybe you should make it clearer what point you were trying to make when you gave one of the most pointless comparisons iv ever seen.
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
Those figures were the trans people killed in hate crimes. The number of cis people killed in hate crimes matches the amount of people killed over a transphobic cartoon, namely zero.

That is my point. If you didn't get it, work on your reading skills.
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
Just because you're terrible at presenting a strong argument doesent mean I should work on my reading skills. Btw hate crimes are stupid. There will never be a hate crime conviction for killing a cis person, even if they were targeted for that reason. Hate crimes only seem to ever apply to minorities which I'll add makes them laughuably unconstitutional in the US
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" Stratus wrote:
There will never be a hate crime conviction for killing a cis person, even if they were targeted for that reason. Hate crimes only seem to ever apply to minorities which I'll add makes them laughuably unconstitutional in the US


Nope.

"Among single-bias hate crime incidents in 2015, there were 4,216 victims of race/ethnicity/ancestry motivated hate crime[...] 18.7 percent were victims of anti-White bias."

"Of the 1,263 victims targeted due to sexual-orientation bias [...] 1.9 percent were victims of anti-heterosexual bias."

"Of the 1,402 victims of anti-religious hate crimes [...] 4.3 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.  [...] 3.4 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias [...] 1.3 percent were victims of anti-Other Christian bias."

"Of the 30 victims of hate crime motivated by offenders’ biases toward gender [...] 8 were anti-male."

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015/topic-pages/victims...

"[The] First Amendment rights [of the hate crime defendant Todd Mitchell] were not violated by the application of the penalty-enhancement provision in sentencing him."

Mitchell was a black guy who committed a crime against a white guy, by the way.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/508/476.html

This isn't a rhetorical question: Why don't you do research before you make assertions?
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
I will counter with another question. Do you know the difference between a CONVICTION and a VICTIM? Evidently not. I said conviction. You can have a murder victim without a convicted murder. Your table is invalid. So why don't you take the time to actually read your research? That is a rhetorical question.

Same thing for the second link. Yeah it can happen. I didn't say shit about black vs white though I said hate crime against cis.

Make relevent points or get off your high horse.  
BrokenPupper
6 years, 8 months ago
Your arrogance has no value or power as long as you post zero examples of what you go on about. Making defensive questions does not count and ignore everything devalues your flaky judgements.
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
Vappy how exactly do I pull up a list of non-convictions.

Also last we butted heads defensive arguing was ALL you did.
Why don't you quit following me around like some fucking creep now if you are going to, yet again, judge me for my opinion while still doing nothing to show how it may be wrong.
BrokenPupper
6 years, 8 months ago
Haha "some fucking creep" is the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard from you. You do literally nothing but repeat "moral high ground" or "high horse" ad nauseam and like the archetypal teacher's pet you do this while speaking solely for one individual as if you expect a reward from it. You scream pretensions only to upset people who don't hold homogenized opinions and yet you cower in your little safe space stop using your big boy dialogue when I confront you? Absolutely pathetic. You're too spineless to have any good conversation and only want to talk people down with bile, what is PM people that they suck and you don't is gonna change?
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
Vappy your a left wing troll and nothing else. I'm not cowering in my safe space, i'm cutting off a tumor. You are everything you claim I am. And yes you are a fucking creep. Is that why I dont see you responding to more people? Did they block you too? And do you know what 'hypocritical" means because its pretty clear you don't. Vappy, go find someone else to troll, I'm done with you.
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
scratch my previous statements, PM me if you want to continue this civilly, i am willing to accept i may have a bias opinion on the matter but would rather have it as a normal conversation.
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" Stratus wrote:
scratch my previous statements, PM me if you want to continue this civilly, i am willing to accept i may have a bias opinion on the matter but would rather have it as a normal conversation.


People very, very rarely change their minds in the course of a conversation. My posts aren't aimed at you, they never were. My true audience is anyone reading this who may be on the fence.

So no, I'm having this conversation where it will do the most good for my trans and non-binary brothers, sister, etc. It's not a big audience, but it's better than an audience of one person who (statistically) will probably not change their mind.

This started when several people blurted out their unsolicited, ignorant opinions in public. It will only end in public.

" Do you know the difference between a CONVICTION and a VICTIM?


First, Mitchell was convicted. Second, to be clear, are you arguing that none of those committing anti-white, anti-male, anti-straight, or anti-Christian hate crimes are convicted? If not, why are you splitting hairs?

" I didn't say shit about black vs white though I said hate crime against cis.


You said, "Hate crimes only seem to ever apply to minorities which I'll add makes them laughuably [sic] unconstitutional in the US"

That is "shit about black vs white", what with the white victims not being "minorities" and all.

By all means, if you know of a cisphobia-motivated murder (or any other crime) that was not prosecuted as such despite the law, let us know. I'm sure it's happened at some point in this large, strange universe of ours.
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
If you don't feel you can provide me with a insightful conversation one on one then I'm done speaking to you on the matter.
I offered you a chance to speak to me in a more serious setting without ridicule or aggression, if you aren't willing to accept that offer then I question journal motives here.
Stratus
6 years, 8 months ago
* your motives...
It's late. I'm willing to listen but I won't be partaking in any further public conversation on this specific thread. Speak to me in private where the temptaion for zingers and other forms of showmanship are gone, or ignore my offer and prove to me you were just trying to put on a show.
GreenFur
6 years, 8 months ago
since we are on the subject of Muslims, why are you not decrying the state of gays, lesbians, trans, and other LGBTQRSTUV+/- whatever's  in Muslim countries? they Throw you people off rooftops!
yet we Never hear a peep put of you about that, No, you rush to defend them, when every poll taken says they want to kill you and do NOT approve of your lifestyle.
==Madness==
--GF
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" GreenFur wrote:
since we are on the subject of Muslims,


We're not, but OK.

" why are you not decrying the state of gays, lesbians, trans, and other LGBTQRSTUV+/- whatever's  in Muslim countries?


I am. I've raised money for OutRight International.

Any other lies you want to make up about me?

" we Never hear a peep put of you about that


Unless you're stalking me both on and off line, how do you know what percentage of peeps I dedicate to which issues?

If I saw a post by a porn artist I follow in which they claimed GSM are not persecuted in Muslim-majority lands, then sure I'd correct them. But I haven't seen that yet. Instead, I saw Roarey and his fans make inaccurate claims about a different group of people.

Why the change in subject? I mean, if you're a true internationalist, maybe you think that we as a species are better off talking about only the most important issues facing those who are most in need.

But looking at your icon, which talks about an issue that effects a relatively small portion of the world population, I don't think that's the case. That's fine if you care about medical marijuana, everyone has issues they care most about, even though they aren't objectively more important.

But to pretend like you don't do that while (falsely) criticizing me of doing that, well that's just petty, isn't it?

" No, you rush to defend them, when every poll taken says they want to kill you and do NOT approve of your lifestyle.
==Madness==
--GF


Sorry, I know I just used it. But it's too good not to reuse.


"A Pew Research Center survey conducted this year found that 52 percent of U.S. Muslims say homosexuality should be accepted by society. In contrast, only 34 percent of white evangelical Protestants believed in 2016 that homosexuality should be accepted by society.

"The rate at which white evangelicals are shifting their views is slower than the rate for Muslims.  White evangelicals shifted their views by 11 percentage points between 2006 and 2016. Muslims’ acceptance of homosexuality shot up by 25 percentage points between 2007 and 2017. [...]

"Shifting attitudes towards homosexuality in American Muslim communities have been driven by a few key groups. Muslim women’s acceptance has increased by 31 percentage points over the last 10 years. College graduates have bumped up 32 points in the same time period.

"Muslim activists and scholars are particularly noticing the change in mindset happening among younger Muslims. Millennial Muslims are more likely to be accepting of homosexuality (60 percent) than Muslims of older generations. The youth’s acceptance grew by 27 percentage points between 2007 and 2017."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/american-muslims-a...
bbbuuu
6 years, 8 months ago
That's the second time I've seen the 'Dunning-Krueger' shit.... the first guy who brought it up showed his true colors by blocking me and erasing my comment, but left the comment of some asshole who called him a faggot... because my response was thought out, and showed the folly in his whole 'Dunning-Krueger' argument, which he couldn't have in the open, because it was common fucking sense, while the other guy was being a legit dickbag and he only wanted people to see the dickbag comments, and not an actual thoughtful response, which is scumbag manipulation tactics.

I'm not gonna rehash the big long response, but I'll cliff note it. Dunning-Krueger, can be applied to YOU and YOUR SIDE as well, you realize that right? It's basically a way to call the other side 'armchair psychologists' when they bring up intelligent points, to try to discredit their point without arguing against it with facts yourself... while ironically, being an armchair psychologist yourself as well, just by merely pulling the Dunning-Krueger card in the first place lmao. If someone on the right tried to pull the Dunning-Krueger card on the left, I'm gonna guess suddenly you'd be against Dunning-Krueger as a tool in the argument?
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" bbbuuu wrote:
That's the second time I've seen the 'Dunning-Krueger' shit.... the first guy who brought it up showed his true colors by blocking me and erasing my comment, but left the comment of some asshole who called him a faggot... because my response was thought out, and showed the folly in his whole 'Dunning-Krueger' argument, which he couldn't have in the open, because it was common fucking sense, while the other guy was being a legit dickbag and he only wanted people to see the dickbag comments, and not an actual thoughtful response, which is scumbag manipulation tactics.


Cool story, bro.

First, this is only the second time you've encountered the phrase "Dunning-Krueger effect"? You should read more.

Second, what exactly are you arguing here? The first person you saw use the phrase was a jerk, so that means the phrase is ruined forever? Are you going to go on that rant every time someone mentions that particular cognitive bias?

Get a thicker skin, kid.

" bbbuuu wrote:
Dunning-Krueger, can be applied to YOU and YOUR SIDE as well, you realize that right? It's basically a way to call the other side 'armchair psychologists' when they bring up intelligent points, to try to discredit their point without arguing against it with facts yourself... while ironically, being an armchair psychologist yourself as well


The American Psychological Association are "armchair psychologists"?

And what intelligent points? Maybe I'm missing something, but none of the responses to me have exactly been citing their sources. It's mostly about hurt fee fees.
bbbuuu
6 years, 8 months ago
LMAO, wow, way to assume!

For your information, Dr. Pompous, I was reading shit like Fahrenheit 451, in grade school, while everyone else was reading shit like Ramona the Great, but please, keep assuming I'm not someone who reads. Did you 'gauge' me as someone who doesn't read, with your psychology degree (oh, wait, I'm pretty sure you don't have one)? What I was trying to do with my 'Cool story bro', was show you the caliber of person that I've seen try to use Dunning-Krueger in an argument in the SAME context that YOU are trying to use it. Because you're just as wrong as he is in the way he attempted to use it.

Wow, way to masterfully sidestep the POINT I was trying to make, to claim I'm calling The American Psychological Association armchair psychologists. Unless you ACTUALLY got that out of my response somehow, in which case I'd question your reading comprehension. I was saying, again, that trying to use Dunning-Krueger in an argument, is basically like one side coming up with an argument (which, btw, they DID source, multiple times, from multiple places, in the other journals and submissions) and then the other side, saying "It doesn't matter what you say, or source, because Dunning-Krueger says you're a low intelligence person masquerading as a high intelligence person! Therefore, you are wrong, and I am right!" (also, just saying 'American Psychologist Association', is not sourcing lmao)

It's not something that can be argued against lmfao. If I were to say, "Ahem, educate yourself by looking up Dunning-Krueger... YOUR take on this subject is about as valid as a flat earther's take on geography, or my take on rocket science", like you did to Roarey, how would you defend against being on the receiving end of Dunning-Krueger? Because I've just pulled the Dunning-Krueger card, it allows me to write off EVERYTHING you say, as 'A low intelligence guy, pretending to be a high intelligence guy', and I no longer have to take ANYTHING you say seriously, and just get to sit back like a smug asshole, and ignore any points you actually make.

Using Dunning-Krueger, especially over the internet where you don't know the actual intelligence quotient of the people you're trying to claim Dunning-Krueger on, is the equivalent of saying "Well, your points don't count, and mine do! Because someone else says so!"
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" bbbuuu wrote:
For your information, Dr. Pompous, I was reading shit like Fahrenheit 451, in grade school, while everyone else was reading shit like Ramona the Great


www.reddit.com/r/iamverysmart

If you've only heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect twice, maybe read less overrated dystopian novels and more non-fiction.

" I was saying, again, that trying to use Dunning-Krueger [sic] in an argument, is basically like one side coming up with an argument (which, btw, they DID source, multiple times, from multiple places, in the other journals and submissions) and then the other side, saying "It doesn't matter what you say, or source, because Dunning-Krueger [sic] says you're a low intelligence person masquerading as a high intelligence person! Therefore, you are wrong, and I am right!" (also, just saying 'American Psychologist Association', is not sourcing lmao)


Who is "they"? Can you post the URL?

And when you say "they" I'm guessing you don't mean you posted links. You haven't cited sources in this page. If one just read your post one might not even realize we were talking about gender identity. Instead you're focused on your feeling getting hurt (which I thought only "social justice warriors" or the "politically correct" did).

What's the American Psychologist Association? I've heard of the American Psychological Association, but not that.

I posted a URL, by the way. It was blue and underlined. Use Ctrl + F.

" It's not something that can be argued against lmfao. If I were to say, "Ahem, educate yourself by looking up Dunning-Krueger [sic]... YOUR take on this subject is about as valid as a flat earther's take on geography, or my take on rocket science", like you did to Roarey, how would you defend against being on the receiving end of Dunning-Krueger [sic]?


I wouldn't have to "defend against" that because I never put myself in that situation. For example, I don't know shit about Pluto, so I don't post about it. I'm not going to make a cartoon about how Pluto is a planet and teachers who tell students otherwise are child abusers.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is not something to "defend against" it. It's a cognitive bias, not an argument.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions." ~ Jefferson

" Using Dunning-Krueger [sic], especially over the internet where you don't know the actual intelligence quotient of the people you're trying to claim Dunning-Krueger [sic] on, is the equivalent of saying "Well, your points don't count, and mine do! Because someone else says so!"


Intelligence quotient? That's not what the Dunning-Kruger (only one 'e') effect describes. An astrophysicist with an IQ of 120 knows more about supernovas than a plumber with an IQ of 98.

But if the astrophysicist started telling the plumber that dumping golf balls in his toilet was a great idea, he's suffering from a cognitive bias.

To be clear, Roarey is the astrophysicist here. The APA, trans, and non-binary people are the plumber. Gender identity is the pipes. I'm the wife yelling at the astrophysicist to shut the fuck up and let the plumber do his job.
AquariusOtt
6 years, 8 months ago
Politics (especially in America) is in a sad age right now, to the point where politics has lost meaning all together. The idea of politics is to discuss and encouraging differing viewpoints but society has become so reactionary that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a slanderer, a sexist, a bigot, a racist, a NAZI! We've definitely seen what happened in Charlottesville when people are calling each other Nazis left and right, especially from left-leaning media like CNN, because now anyone who isn't far-left and a social justice warrior is roped by force into the same group as those who actually advocate for minority/Jewish genocide.

This is not an attack on liberalism because I definitely consider myself a classical one, but the left in America has escalated things to such an extremity that they end up advocating for something they ironically are against; all they're doing is switching the perpetrators and the victims. And the right hasn't reacted smoothly either, ending up just as terrible and incompetent if not worse than their enemies.

In the end, politics has become less about interacting and coming to compromises between polar opinions, but rather is now a play for power. And every country knows the consequences of what happens when political gain is only motivated by brute force and power over the opponent. No one wins.

tl;dr - Politics is a shitstorm because of power play.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Indeed, it has nothing to do with the liberal left, its the fact that the left has gone full authoritarian and communist. We can all see what communists do with a basic history lesson. They aren't for equality or helping people, they're for destroying their enemies. Its a movement born of rage and spite. Collectivism on both ends of politics is anathema to the enlightenment and western culture, which is individualist. There's no way any of us can have any kind of peace as long as there are so many people who want us to be put into groups and mobilized for revolution and eventually genocide.
moyomongoose
6 years, 8 months ago
Politics in America is like a hornets nest...No matter what you say, you piss someone off.
Danjen
6 years, 8 months ago
It's not the people who are to blame. Look at how every media company runs the same agitator bullshit at the same time. Now realize which group of people own most of the media outlets, and...
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
We are each accountable for our own actions. Doesn't matter what the media says, everybody knows its wrong to try and destroy people for a point of view, they simply make excuses for it and do it anyway. Nobody is forcing anyone to seek others out to harass, defame and destroy, that's all on the head of each individual who does it. If we deny personal responsibility, it leads to exactly this situation.
Danjen
6 years, 8 months ago
So the ones that are encouraging race baiting shouldn't be held accountable, because they themselves aren't doing it directly?
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Accusing everybody of evil by virtue of opinions is how we get pogroms. Hold yourself accountable instead of favouring ridiculous witch hunts. There's a law for a reason, so that we can have due process and human rights. Obsessing over wanting to see people you don't like suffer is just plain psychotic. Sacrificing everyone's ability to live in peace over ridiculous ideological hatred is why wars happen.
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" Danjen wrote:
Now realize which group of people own most of the media outlets, and...


I think you forgot these:

((( )))

Roarey, you're now attracting a guy who is either a) an antisemite, people too stupid to realize they're using antisemitic tropes, or people who don't care they're using the same language of antisemities. Think about why you're attracting this crowd, dude.
Danjen
6 years, 8 months ago
Where did I say anything about Jews or antisemitism? Let me guess, now you'll call me a Nazi or a Fascist because I disagreed with you.

>Think about why you're attracting this crowd
Because he disagreed with the media narrative about gender disorders being applied to children?
I'm glad he did, because it's just disgusting.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 8 months ago
I think what he ment about antisemitism is that the media and holiwood are sterotypicaly controlled and owned by prominent jews.

I think what YOU MENT was that the media are holiwood are very heavaly LEFT leening.


Just trying to clear that up, nobody is being antisemitic...yet anyway.
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" Danjen wrote:
Where did I say anything about Jews or antisemitism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

" Danjen wrote:
Let me guess, now you'll call me a Nazi or a Fascist because I disagreed with you.


You guessed wrong. Hopefully you're not a gambler. Remember, I gave three options: A) Antisemite (note, not all antisemites are Nazis or Fascists), B) Totally unaware of basic antisemitic tropes, and C) Aware of antisemitic tropes, but doesn't care and so uses them anyway.

" Danjen wrote:
Because he disagreed with the media narrative about gender disorders being applied to children?
I'm glad he did, because it's just disgusting.

It's not the "media narrative", it's the facts. A creationists finds the fact that homo sapiens are apes to be disgusting, but that don't make it any less true, does it?

Tell me, what research have you done into this topic? How did you come to know more about this topic than, for example, the American Psychological Association?

Watching YouTube videos and consuming works by people who already agree with you don't count as research, by the way.
Danjen
6 years, 8 months ago
" otterguy wrote:
Watching YouTube videos and consuming works by people who already agree with you don't count as research, by the way.


So every single source has to be peer-reviewed and accredited before it can be accepted in an argument?

Well I don't see any scientists publishing a study saying that Charlottesville was an awful tragedy, so I guess that means we'll just have to wait and see how that turns out. /sarcasm
otterguy
6 years, 8 months ago
" Danjen wrote:
So every single source has to be peer-reviewed and accredited before it can be accepted in an argument?


If you're making a medical argument, yes.

Otherwise, you shouldn't start the argument in the first place. Just stick to writing porn if you're not up on the latest psychology and endocrinology on trans kids, or the anthropology regarding cultures with non-binary genders.

So again I'll ask, what research have you done on this topic? If you're too embarrassed to answer, you don't have to.
KaloTheSkunk
6 years, 8 months ago
I'm getting pretty tired of people in such a niche subculture, a subculture which is supposed to be inclusive and understanding, but instead I behold people cannibalizing one another over politics and this lame ass fad of political correctness.
Average people constantly looking down upon other average people for the dumbest shit because of the media they consume.

You might surround yourselves with these like minded people who are of the extreme politic mind. They'll jump on the chance to eat you alive too if you give them the opportunity. They aren't your friends. They're activists.

You'd be right to say the togetherness of this community is far more important that some political fad or another.
ZeloxQuo
6 years, 8 months ago
It's an accepting community, where you can be your nerdy, weirdo self and nobody is going to give you hell for it. At least that's what it's supposed to be.

That is what it USED TO be.

The far left and far right are in a constant conflict, continually trying to out-smear the other and the rest of us are getting dragged along for the ride.

I actually completely disagree with you here. The vast majority of folks who hold social power in the subculture are those of a far left leaning. They are many of the most popular artists and creators. They are the ones with 'cult of personality' like followings on their social media pages. They are the ones who have the power to shut down conventions for doing things that 'they don't approve of' and manage to get away with it. Stating that it is the left and right that are doing this seems flawed.

There is only a small group of right leaning folks, who even dare to talk/make art about right leaning issues and concepts. And most of those folks seem to be in altfurry just so that they have a place where they are allowed to talk freely.

What matters is that we are each individuals who all have our part to play in what makes furry such a fantastic, wonderful thing. Right now it's being poisoned and people are really feeling it.

Yes it is being poisoned, and it is being poisoned by the far left who are enforcing political correctness and social conditioning on everyone and fording them to comply. If you don't comply then you are called all kinds of names. Then, as the leaked documents from the far left chats suggest, they start planning on how to make bombs, get/create guns and how/when would be the most efficient time to use them.

This is the political climate we live in now. Those with all of the social power in the subculture seem to be left leaning, with many leaning very far left. And on top of that, many convention boards are comprised of far left folks, who cannot understand what freedom of speech is, and what speaking out against throughtcrime is. We have members of said boards slandering others, spreading lies and getting them removed from all stages of conventions because they falsely call them a 'nazi'.

THIS is the point we are at. Asking for it to stop is almost impossible at this point.

The only way that it seems like it will stop is if there is a rise of as many folks in the subculture as possible, who stand up against these far left folks and say, hey, this is shit, stop forcing us to think, act and talk in certain ways.

But, unfortunately, anyone who does that, as you have directly experienced, is shunned, suspended and ostracised.

If you're a popular artist or if you're one of our many great patrons, if you're part of this community and you're worried about where it's going, please say something.

I am not popular. I am a nobody. But I have tried to say something and do something. I am pushing back against the horde of hate that the far left is spewing and how they are infecting the subculture with a mindset that will in turn destroy it.

I am just a nobody. But even if enough nobodies stand together. Then it might make some kind of difference.
GreenFur
6 years, 8 months ago
Well said my friend,
i for one refuse to submit to political correctness and identity politics that those on the far left are pushing as the dominant 'narrative'
Feels are NOT Facts
--GF
TheAtomicDog
6 years, 8 months ago
Our Host illustrates the reasons I refrained, until recently, from getting all political when I visited furry sites. The old saw about how polite society never discusses religion or politics seems now rather gospel does it not?
I will also remind Our Host that the furry community is notorious for the very-large amount of drama it produces. This unflattering truth about our community unfortunately has again been proven.
BullseyeBronco
6 years, 8 months ago
I'd vote for a Raccoon who draws cute naked Tales for president any day. :3

And yes... Extremism is toxic... But, in a sense, necessary. It shows us what not to be. I like to think most people have level heads. Yet we still attack others for those with different opinions... Makes me sad.
orwin
6 years, 8 months ago
Throws <spacebars> at every one.  It's far bigger than the alt right, or the alt left, and is where the majority is.  SPACEBARS for everyone!
Ohgun312
6 years, 8 months ago
These extremists are tearing the fabric of society apart. Thank you for bringing this up.
MasterTomcat
6 years, 8 months ago
Politics have always been about trying to force other people to do things they don't like
PantyRanger
6 years, 8 months ago
Look Roarey. Not to be that person, but how can you say you aren't trying to troll or provoke people when you end your image with "stop abusing kids". That's pretty explicitly made to challenge certain groups.

I don't care if you want to display your politics, but don't bullshit here. You wanted a tussle.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Its because I genuinely believe teaching children their gender is fluid is abuse. Young kids don't need to know about that stuff, its a raging debate with a heap of complete guff. I've always resented the "get em while they're young" tactics from any ideology, religious or political. People will disagree with me but I think it's abusive and I don't have to apologise to anyone for it. Not my problem if people can't handle a cartoon, I don't see why my personal art can't reflect what I actually think, even if I do fail to get messages across fully. If people want to interpret malice into it that's on them, but I am genuinely, seriously concerned about all this far left infiltration of everything from science to the bloody furry fandom. It's collectivist, sinister tripe and I've had it up to here with being policed like it's 1800 and I'm an atheist.
PantyRanger
6 years, 8 months ago
On that subject, here's the thing I have issue with.

If your 8-12 year old son (if you had one) expresses a desire to crossdress or experiment with female centric activities, would you deny him that?

I'm willing to meet you half way on not wanting to feed your child strange medicine and pills or perform risky surgical treatments, but many transgender/non-binary kids are not on those sorts of treatment.

And yes, it's abuse if you force your kid to transition, but what about the other way around. I'm coming at you with experience, I suffered a SHIT TON of abuse because I didn't conform to masculine stereotypes, wanted to crossdress and didn't want to bee a traditional man. While I didn't suffer gender dysphoria, I can't describe the crud my family put me through over this. It goes deep.

There's nothing abusive about allowing your child some freedom to express who they are in a healthy way and then if that time comes and they really have dysphoria over it, they should also be allowed the right to transition, right?
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I have no issue helping kids who are having trouble with gender identity, what I object to is teaching all children their genders are fluid. Over 95% of people are male or female from birth to death, so teaching all kids that all gender is fluid is explicitly incorrect and it adds a whole new layer of confusion and misinformation into what is already a really complicated stage of development. I understand people are concerned about those with gender problems, whatever they may be, but no amount of concern justifies such a lie and the potential for awful consequences is beyond estimation.
PantyRanger
6 years, 8 months ago
The problem is you're failing to realize biological sex and gender identity is different.
One is biology, the other is performance.

You have to account for the social stigmas of being called a man or a woman and how those impact your own personal performance. If you are a man and act outside the male identity, you may often be shunned or ostracize. For some people the solace is in rejecting the very concept of a man in order to achieve some sense of solace and comfort.

You often get issues with people who get upset or angry by the mere act of not conforming. Example, yelling at a trans person "YOU ARE A MAN/WOMAN! ACT LIKE ONE! WHY ARE YOU ACTING THIS WAY!"

Thing is, when it comes to the normative society, a person who calls you a man is going beyond the fact you have a penis here. You can argue about biology, but biology doesn't account for performance. Biology doesn't say a man wears jeans and woman wears dresses. Men must play/watch football or join the military.

I'm sorry, but even if you're arguing biology, even when society is try to conform to "science" it's doing it wrong. What's normal is men act like men and women act like women and nothing in between, above or beyond.

Answer this? Why are you gay? Why do you refuse to mate with a woman? Biologically, you should mate with a woman. You're going against your own biology. Even if you say: "well, I'm just abnormal" then shouldn't you be fixed?

RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I'm failing to realise nothing, instead people are deliberately sidestepping my concerns and argument to talk about gender. I've already had discussions with others on this subject and this isn't the journal for it. Nobody can justify teaching this to kids and nobody even attempts to, they just talk about how my opinion is misguided on gender "science" and I'm obviously some idiot who watched a YouTube video and figured I know everything. We could maybe do this properly somewhere else at another time but honestly I'm exhausted with this crap now, I've had days of it from dozens of people so I'm taking a break.
PantyRanger
6 years, 8 months ago
Kind of not hard to think you know nothing when you're exaggerating claims of child abuse because parents choose to tell their children their allowed to be what they want to be, that's hardly abusive. Sorry, but I think You ARE wrong.

Don't start whining people argue with you about this crap when you're language is confrontational. You can't just post your politics publically without scrutiny or criticism. If you didn't want people discussing this stuff with you, maybe don't bring it up in the first place?
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I'm not wrong. If over 95% of any members of any property fit into one of two categories it is not a spectrum. No science, no argument, nothing can or will change that. You're the one asserting human beings are something they aren't and that tens of thousands of years of human experience of being human is somehow wrong about identity. Have you even looked at these new genders? You think that's science do you, to make up new identities? No, gender is being misused as a word to describe individual personality differences when gender is simply a cultural representation of what men and women typically do in a given society. You're the one who's wrong, I've done my research, I've listened to professors and read books like I'm supposed to do. But rather than give me some credit for taking the fucking time to write an essay, to engage with people who just want to fucking hurt me, just keep insulting and insinuating I'm lazy. Do you have any idea how many hours in the day it takes to respond to so many people, people I owe NOTHING? Christ, the entitlement of it.
PantyRanger
6 years, 8 months ago
How people act IS science. How they portray themselves and how their brain works that's science.
So what does your plumbing have to do with how you dress? How you portray yourself? Fucking, how you perform tasks like programming and other shit?

Are you trying to tell me that as a man, you are preordained to "Act" like a man. And what does that entail, hm?
You are literally gay (Atleast I think you are). You're already going against biology because of that. You think science can't support that? Is gay unscientific now?

I've reiterated this, so I'll explain how I view it by answering your question:

" Have you even looked at these new genders? You think that's science do you, to make up new identities?


Their is no way for a human being to physically change genders. Even if you transition, you can't change your biology. A transgender man will never be 100% male. A transgender woman will never be 100% woman. There experiences are also unique because of that identity.

The English Language can only support two genders. Male and Female and we spent years using the same pronouns for such. This much is true. There's little to no way society as a whole can or will adopt the existence of other gender signifies. The best one can hope for is it being regulated to the same status of calling a close friend a nickname. This much is true:

However, gender, as in the definition separated from Biological Sex, is STILL a social construct. I have little to no reason to be both male and act like one as you do.

" "gender is being misused as a word to describe individual personality differences when gender is simply a cultural representation of what men and women typically do in a given society."


Just to address this, I don't get what you mean here. Are you trying to argue that men should act like men or are you trying to say that there are only two ways to perform?



RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
You misunderstand all of this. Science is a method, a tool. You start with a hypothesis from an observed phenomena, the hypothesis predicts what one expects to see if it correct, then it is tested to see if that hypothesis has any basis as a predictor. If gender is a spectrum, our expectation would be to see the a huge range of people identifying as a huge range of genders across society, rather than simply male or female. Instead we find over 95% identify according to their biological sex determined at birth. Gender and sex are not social constructs, they are OBSERVATIONS. They aren't rules, but descriptors. Gender is defined (words have meanings) as the way a given culture typically demonstrates male and female characteristics. This doesn't mean all men and all women fit some predefined category, it means that across society as a whole, there is a general trend in characteristics between men and women and those general trends determine how that society views men and women. That's what gender roles are, not rules to be commanded but broad general personality features. Nobody fits into such categories neatly like a glove because we are individual people with our own personalities. What the gender ideologues have done is recognize their deviation from a simplified trend and declare themselves a unique gender construct instead of just understanding their personality is them being individual people. Why create new genders? Because the sjw politics are collectivist and in collectives it is the group to which you belong that is given the most importance. How can you stand out as an individual when your peers define you by your group? Create a new group of which you are the only or one of very few members, then you stand out again. Look at these new genders, you get shit like space gender for god sake. Yet you think this stupid shit is science? You know nothing of science, nothing of logic, nothing of gender.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
To think a minority defines a majority, like the minority who see themselves as non-binary indicates all gender is on a spectrum, is like observing that a minority of men are rapists, therefore men are defined as rapists. Its absolute twaddle.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
In all this, I've never seen you answer the question: what about the other 5% here? If you have two categories, and they fit only 95% of people, where do you put the other 5%?
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I've already answered it. But I'll be more direct, fine. Those outside the norm are there for multiple reasons, whether it is a genetic disorder like intersex, a mental and physical disorder like gender dysphoria, or they believe they are something they're physically not, like non-binary. The existence of people who do not fit any given trend, whatever that trend is, does not change the existence of the trend. If anything, it amplifies the trend because they are noticeably deviating from it. I don't know why some people have issues with their gender, the same way I don't know why I have depression or even what depression is. Its still something that does not apply to the overwhelming majority of people on the planet so teaching everybody that something rare is something true for all is simply utter rubbish. I don't need to be able to explain trans or non-binary people to note the FACT that over 95% of human beings have NO problem with their gender whatsoever. I think the most likely explanation is a deep psychological confusion, for non-binary folk it appears to be trouble accepting themselves to the point of feeling like their biological sex is a tyranny against them and that society's view of gender is a tyranny. I wish all of those people godspeed and best of luck, I have nothing against them and would never dream of assaulting or bullying them. Its just the way it is, gender isn't a spectrum and people don't get stronger by running away from reality but by facing it and learning to cope with it.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
By 'them' you mean the group that includes me, of course. You acknowledge that you don't understand, but also want to speculate about my reasons for identifying as non-binary. You say that you don't mean me any harm, but you've stirred harassment against non-binary people in the fandom. Is it possible to simply acknowledge that yes, 95% or whatever of the population fits into the gender binary, while also acknowledging that the gender identities of the other 5% also exist?

It's possible for a spectrum to exist where there's a big cluster on both ends. That doesn't make it *not* a spectrum.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Bollocks, what I've stirred is your insecurity, your need for others to validate you. I don't need validation from anyone, I'm secure in who I am and I don't give a fuck if people think I'm something I know I'm not. Its called adulthood. If you can feel invalid as a person because you read an opinion contrary to your own that's your weakness to be overcome in life. You don't get to fucking impose yourself on me and tell me what I have to think to make you feel more secure. There's no way I'm letting anybody do that, fuck no.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Are you even listening to yourself right now? Look, I originally jumped into this because I saw a bunch of people harassing Saucy. My stake in this is seeing people make this fandom less welcome for non-binary trans people. Meanwhile, you're constantly whining about how you're tired, you don't want to talk about this anymore, you want to move on, but you jump at every chance to retaliate when someone brings it up. You're the one here who looks like he has a fragile ego.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Here's why: You'll never see me on your page, shouts, comments or notes saying "Why don't you just accept gender isn't a spectrum?". You'll never get me harassing you, mocking you or otherwise bullying you, no matter what opinion you express on your own pages in your own spaces. But you come to me, accuse me of encouraging abuse, as though my very expression is a personal threat to your entire existence. Do you have any idea how obnoxiously shitty that is? You're claiming I'm some sort of abusive scumbag, albeit in more polite language and suggesting I should just accept your version of what you think gender is based on no evidence whatsoever. Its annoying and I've had so many people do it I'm sick of it. But no, you don't have to consider that maybe I've heard this enough, that maybe I've had enough crap from it already, you're just a nice, reasonable person trying to guilt me into changing my opinions because they're harmful by their very existence. Pay attention to your own actions. And leave me alone.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Uh, that's objectively untrue. I saw you come into Saucy's space to yell at them. You should remember that, seeing as it was, uh, where we actually talked earlier.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I didn't attack Saucy. I don't know who they are.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Cute! It sure is easy to lie when Saucy got so much harassment that they deleted the journal you popped up in.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Harassment that did not come from me. I remember leaving a comment after someone linked me to it, but I did not abuse them. If I remember correctly (I just checked and the comments have been deleted) I brought up that trying to capitalise with their own business on the hate train directed against me was pretty fucked up. Which it, er, actually is.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
I mean, sure, if you just come up with imaginary reasons why they decided to put a discount on trans commissions, it sounds pretty bad.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Oh, it only happened right after my cartoon blew up and I was linked to it by someone saying it was about me. Saucy never responded and told me otherwise, nobody told me otherwise. I had no proof so of course I could be entirely mistaken. But when literally hundreds of people are after you on the same day at the same time, its just a little hard to be objective. Again, I never said anything abusive to them anyway.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Seeing as how Saucy posted their own unicorn picture, and recieved plenty of harassment about that, maybe *that* was the reason. Accusing someone of acting in bad faith on the basis of hearsay, and dumping your frustration on an unrelated person who said not one single thing to you, feels kinda shitty to me.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I'm done responding now, all you've done is ask questions, ignore my responses and change the subject to be about something else. You've made no argument, only statements and because you've no argument you go straight to how I'm apparently encouraging harassment and hatred. You do this, with no sense of irony, in a journal I have made precisely to discourage that very fucking thing. All you've got are personal attacks and guilt trips, which are boring.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Then block me. I'm serious about my claims that your actions have caused harm, and you've made no attempt to counter that claim, only to repeatedly say it's not true. Actions have consequences, and it seems like more than anything you're pissy that the consequences have come back to you, rather than merely the non-binary trans people you've insulted with your cartoon.

I'm not interested in guilting you. I'm interested in repairing the harm, which could begin as easily as just acknowledging the genders of non-binary trans people.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Fair enough, that can be arranged.
Glire
6 years, 8 months ago
" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
Harassment that did not come from me. I remember leaving a comment after someone linked me to it, but I did not abuse them. If I remember correctly (I just checked and the comments have been deleted) I brought up that trying to capitalise with their own business on the hate train directed against me was pretty fucked up. Which it, er, actually is.


This would be a more compelling argument if you hadn't, uh, advertised your own commissions in the middle of the shitstorm they were receiving. If you wanted to make the point that it's bad to capitalize on when someone else was getting shat on, it would have been an excellent idea not to pointedly do the exact same thing.

Because if anyone had actually taken you up on that offer? You wouldn't have refused it. You would have gladly taken the commission and the money. Ironic advertising is still advertising and operates under the same ethical principles. And unlike Saucy, who had the common decency to leave you out of it and react to the developing transphobic counter-backlash (dredged up by your post and its backlash, yes -- but you don't get to call up a bunch of shit and then whine when someone else tries to help clean it up), you did it right in their comment section. I don't care what line you think Saucy crossed, you did everything you accused them of and more, and any reasonable observer would laugh in your face if you so much as attempted to invoke a moral high ground of any kind.

I want you to imagine me offering some kind of fic commission special offer at the end of this comment. Really sit with that mental image, and consider how angry it would make you for me to literally attempt to advertise on your platform, to your watchers.

I have a conscience, though. So I won't.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I advertised my commissions because people were making an effort to destroy my business, which is called libel. I explained this in the very advertising image description. Haha, you're deliberately misunderstanding at this point. Also, my comment to Spicy was satire. Which is why I haven't advertised that 'special offer' on my actual pages.
Glire
6 years, 8 months ago
" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
I advertised my commissions because people were making an effort to destroy my business, which is called libel. I explained this in the very advertising image description. Haha, you're deliberately misunderstanding at this point. Also, my comment to Spicy was satire. Which is why I haven't advertised that 'special offer' on my actual pages.


First of all, the journal you were responding to doesn't mention you. At all. If you heard "people are being transphobic, so I thought I should do something nice for trans folk", and you thought it was targeting you, congratulations, you played yourself. Even if you feel that people are libelously destroying your reputation*, it wasn't happening anywhere near the journal you put an ad on. So at best you wildly missed your target, and at worst you didn't miss it at all.

Second of all, satire requires a clarity of purpose and target lest it be mistaken for and contribute to that which it intends to criticize.

You hocked your wares during a brawl, and my response to that is within the comment you responded to, re: ironic advertising. I wasn't even aware that you took commissions before I saw your comment. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw a line from someone attacking Saucy, seeing that you're in the comments, finding out that you're open for commissions, and throwing you a few bucks because they think you're a good guy misunderstood by ~the liberals~. I literally deleted the part in my last comment where I specifically pointed out it could not have been satire, because I figured I wouldn't need it, you wouldn't be that much of a  coward, would you? That's a mistake I won't make again.

"Satire" isn't some magic word you can throw around and disclaim the effect of your words, and frankly I'm done pretending that it is. It doesn't justify walking into someone else's comment section calling attention to yourself and your own art business, and it wouldn't have justified any money you might have received for any commission you might have gotten afterward. The fact that you probably didn't is immaterial; there's a higher ethical standard to uphold here. Either you knowingly breached it, or you unknowingly did so, which makes you either disingenuous or ignorant, take your pick.

*What reputation is that? If you're as provocative as you say, then you certainly upheld that image by provoking people. Hey, unrelatedly you know what the word 'to provoke' means? 'To spur into action'. You want people to act less on what you say? Be less provocative.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
The reason I assumed Saucys journal was about me was because I was linked to it by someone saying it was and the fact that they had drawn a unicorn cartoon of their own (pretty obvious what it was about, lol). As I've said before to Reiko above you, on a day where I'm getting literally thousands of abusive messages, my bad for slipping up in being objective. I didn't leave an abusive comment, I left a critical comment with a joke about a special offer that doesn't actually exist. What has your knowledge of me or the fact that I take commissions got to do with anything? I've been drawing commissions for over 10 bloody years, you just haven't heard of me. Saucy never responded to me to set me straight, nobody did, so what am I to think? I didn't even remember their journal until it was brought up by Reiko, that much shit has happened over a damn cartoon I can't remember half of it. But no, I make one comment and I'm a hypocrite. It wasn't abusive, it wasn't harassment and I felt like that journal was a direct response to the shit that was happening to me because I was told it was and it actually was. Big deal.
Glire
6 years, 8 months ago
" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
The reason I assumed Saucys journal was about me was because I was linked to it by someone saying it was and the fact that they had drawn a unicorn cartoon of their own (pretty obvious what it was about, lol).


Ahem.

" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
I didn't attack Saucy. I don't know who they are.


I notice you suddenly know who they are now that it serves your point.

Anyway, that unicorn cartoon still wasn't the journal you left a message on. Someone can respond to you with a parody, and simultaneously care about and respond to what's happening to other people. The world doesn't revolve around you. For someone else doesn't mean against you, unless you have a particularly craven zero-sum attitude towards the world.

It'd explain a lot.

" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
As I've said before to Reiko above you, on a day where I'm getting literally thousands of abusive messages, my bad for slipping up in being objective. I didn't leave an abusive comment, I left a critical comment with a joke about a special offer that doesn't actually exist. What has your knowledge of me or the fact that I take commissions got to do with anything?


I told you what it's got to do with anything in my previous comment. If the thousands of comments you've received prevents you from reading and understanding mine, I suggest you not respond to it, lest you harm your own reputation by being known for half-cocked inchoate responses to things you didn't read.

" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
I've been drawing commissions for over 10 bloody years, you just haven't heard of me. Saucy never responded to me to set me straight, nobody did, so what am I to think?


In the journal you said you checked, they specifically said it's not about anyone in particular. They also responded to that exact accusation in the comments you had to scroll past to leave your own, before you got there. The fact that you didn't see it doesn't absolve you; the information was known by the time you commented.

" RoareyRaccoon wrote:
I didn't even remember their journal until it was brought up by Reiko, that much shit has happened over a damn cartoon I can't remember half of it. But no, I make one comment and I'm a hypocrite. It wasn't abusive, it wasn't harassment and I felt like that journal was a direct response to the shit that was happening to me because I was told it was and it actually was. Big deal.


I'm not accusing you of harassment. I'm not accusing you of being abusive, either. I've accused you of advertising on someone else's journal while they were getting dumped on for that journal, which is objectively true, whether you did it ironically or not. Do I have to define advertising for you? Words, as you've pointed out, have meanings. To advertise is to make known a product or service available for purchase. Unless the fact that you are open for commissions is satire, the comment is an ad. I don't care if the specific deal you were advertising is fake or not; you told people they could commission you. For that accusation to be false, you would have to demonstrate that a) you didn't say that people could commission you (you admit you did), or b) they can't commission you (you admit they can).

If individual words have meanings, then groups of words, in specific contexts, have more complex, multifaceted, and nuanced meanings. The fact that you may not have intended to advertise on that journal simply means that you weren't aware of the full consequences of your statement. That's not, in and of itself, the end of the world. What's getting you in trouble here is that you're trying to claim that those consequences don't exist by using the concept of satire as a cudgel against criticism. It would be far more honourable to simply say that it was a mistake to do it, even if you thought you had a point at the time.

That you had any honour.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I don't know Saucy now, either. I already said I'd forgotten the comment and the journal until it was brought up to me, so when I said I didn't know them at that point I actually couldn't remember what the fuck they were talking about. Again, because you have no comprehension skills, I reacted off the cuff to information I was given from someone else, including a link to their unicorn cartoon. I didn't read the whole fucking thread in their journal because I had a lot of other shit going on at the same time. Its the reality of being human, there's only so much attention I can pay and I was in a really fucking retaliatory mood at the time, for reasons that, if you cannot understand, you have no brain. Doesn't make me a hypocrite, it makes me a fuckup on the most hectic day I've ever had on the internet. So, pedanticism over advertising definitions aside, it was a comment meant as a criticism and a joke, I haven't engaged in harassing people as is implied and I don't give a shit about anything else. Have a nice day and get a life.
Glire
6 years, 8 months ago
I just want to point out, since I imagine you're decreasingly likely to actually respond, that bringing up the (incomplete, grade-school) definition of gender, as you did, is somehow not pedantic, but bringing up the definition of advertising is. Nor is splitting hairs on the definition of "knowing" in order to thread a needle between "I responded to a situation without the facts" and "my attack was justified". Please, spare me the denials about attacking them. You called Saucy out for what you perceived as capitalizing on your infamy.

This is why so many people have criticized you: Your very demeanour asserts a special set of rules you apply to everyone else but not yourself. You take umbrage both to being called out for a behaviour and when someone else does that behaviour.

Ideally, I think it would be best for you to take a long hard look at how you engage with things like this. You pride yourself on being edgy; doing so means you need to accept the risk of getting cut, and actually listening to the people you might be hurting. In addition, you might need to take a much longer and more comprehensive look at a subject before making content for it; you could look up Gender Trouble by Judith Butler or Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender, both good starting points on what gender is and why it's waaaaay more complicated (and far more diverse) than you think it is.

And for god's sake, figure out what effective satire is, will you? Otherwise you're just one more edgelord too unwilling to take responsibility for their actions to ever have a hope of saying anything meaningful or original.

I get you've had a stressful time of this. Use it as a catalyst, and improve yourself. Step back, pick up he pieces, reconsider the whole mess, and maybe figure out ways to do better next time.

Oh, and, funny thing. Saucy's pronouns are singular they. Despite all this? You accidentally respected their nonbinary identity all this time. I'm sure it wasn't on purpose, but look how easy it is to do when you don't realize you're doing it.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Funny you mention grade school, because the definition of gender IS something people can understand at the grade school level. Extending the definition of a word to reflect a worldview does not alter reality, it merely alters the definition of a word. Not one of you has an argument for how a bi-modal distribution is actually a spectrum, all you've got are ad hominem insults, appeals to authority (these people know better than you, so shut up dumbo) and general pedantic, veiled insults and accusations. Your entire position rests not on making a point but in making out that I'm a dunce. Nice try, but it won't wash with anyone who is honest and forthright. Naturally, when I point out your tactics you'll accuse me of doing the same to you, haha. I know you are so what am I? Its like being in, er, grade school.
Glire
6 years, 8 months ago
You really want to get into it, don't you.

Okay.

Show me where you get your definition of gender. Seriously. Pull a source. Any source will do.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
The dictionary.
Glire
6 years, 8 months ago
So to confirm, your stance is that the dictionary is the authoritative source on the meaning of the word "gender", and no other meanings can exist because they don't appear in the dictionary?
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=287171 the dictionary clarifies the meanings of words so we know what each person means when they use them. If you use a word in a different way you need to state it. I have no interest in talking to you more, you deliberately misrepresent me, ask idiotic questions after putting words in my mouth and argue like every disingenuous liar that ever walked the earth. Tata.
Glire
6 years, 8 months ago
Well, I don't need to state it. The Oxford English Dictionary does it for me:

" Preface to the OED Third Edition wrote:
There are a number of myths about the Oxford English Dictionary, one of the most prevalent of which is that it includes every word, and every meaning of every word, which has ever formed part of the English language. Such an objective could never be fully achieved. The present revision gives the editors the opportunity to add many terms which have been overlooked in the past, but it should be understood that fully comprehensive coverage of all elements of the language is a chimera. That said, the content of the Dictionary is certainly comprehensive within reasonable bounds.

It is also often claimed that a ‘word’ is not a ‘word’ (or is not ‘English’) unless it is in ‘the dictionary’. This may be acceptable logic for the purposes of word games, but not outside those limits. Proponents of this view expect dictionaries to include ‘proper’ English, whereas dictionaries in fact include many slang, informal, technical, and other words which such people might not consider to be ‘proper’, typically labelled according to the register of language to which they belong. It may be added here that the question ‘How many words are there in the English language?’ cannot be answered by recourse to a dictionary.

Another myth about the Dictionary, and about dictionaries in general, is that they provide a comprehensive analysis of each word treated. Again, this cannot be the case in a finite text. But more important, philosophically, is that any dictionary attempts to provide information in a manner which is accessible to the reader. In order to do this, it is customary to subdivide polysemous words by their meanings and by the grammatical and syntactic forms in which they are found. However, any extensive examination of the documentary evidence for a language soon uncovers examples of usage which straddle two or more of the stated meanings of a word, often idiosyncratically and in ways which it is not practical for the dictionary to illustrate. The reader should be aware of this incongruity, and should regard the Dictionary as a convenient guide to the history and meaning of the words of the English language, rather than as a comprehensive and exhaustive listing of every possible nuance.


But even if we wanted to use the dictionary as an authoritative source, wait, there's more! Nonbinary identities appear in the dictionary. Genderqueer and genderfluid (written there as "gender-fluid") are both phrases in the list under the definitions of gender (you can search for them, they'll appear). So as it turns out I get to say "the dictionary" for my viewpoint too.

I get that that people are using words you don't like in ways you don't like, and fine, if you don't want to listen to anyone else but the dictionary, you can do that. But if you want to consider it an authoritative source, you're going to have to listen to all of it, not just the parts that agree with your viewpoint. If the very source you're citing explicitly tells you not to attempt to use it in the way you're using it, you fucked up. If it contains data that blows apart your central thesis, you fucked up.

But you're right. There's not much more for me. So I'll take my leave now. You can even respond if you want to, if it'll make you feel better to get the last word.

Just make sure that word's in the dictionary, chump.
khamal
6 years, 8 months ago
I think what he means is that children should be allowed to figure out such things on their own rather then having it drilled into their minds. Just my two cents on the subject.
Waccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
There's a great many things I wish I had been taught as a kid.  Namely, why all the other kids were bullying me so damn much while they seemed to get along fine with each other.  My teachers were so incompetent, they couldn't even tell I needed glasses, never mind recognize and council me about my mental issues.

How we teach kids difficult and controversial topics is what's important.  Trying to shield kids from reality and leaving them to their own devices results in a serious lack of critical thinking skills and they just fall back to instinctive tribalism.  Ignorance is ugly.
ZwolfJareAlt306
6 years, 8 months ago
I have the Universe on this.

Be here now...

❤️
Navos
6 years, 8 months ago
But condemning others of their actions or beliefs is what makes them better people.

I remember all those times of people accusing others of being fascists, bigots, racists and just generally the scum of the earth, made them better people. What do people like Ghandi or Martin Luther King know, overhyped figures am I right? Obviously if someone doesn't understand your viewpoint, then they are evil haters because your opinions are beautiful and a perfect unique snowflakes without any flaws. Because your opinions are Jesus, everyone against you is the bad guy that needs to go to jail. Remember, prison fixes bad people by... Uh, being terrible.

Like that one time someone actively praising the destruction of confederate statues was accused of not knowing history. Excuse me but we are all historians with a vast knowledge of 3 years of twitter tweets, that person is just a nazi, continue the destruction! Erase all evidence of things that forms different opinions! Keep destroying stuff until bad people go away! :D
TravisRetriever
6 years, 8 months ago
*Standing ovation*
Glad to see some standing up for sanity.  I myself am taking a break from politics just in general.  Way too much bs as of late.  Hell, one of the reasons I go to the fandom is for escapism from this political bs.  Not to engage in even MORE of it.
moyomongoose
6 years, 8 months ago
Not very many folks could put it better than Woody Guthrie did;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVnur5DkdI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbulO_FB2ZI

And one from Huddie William Ledbetter (Leadbelly);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQva5wKSfzM
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
I can't simply put aside politics when people want to make political arguments against the very existence of my identity. If you're interested in putting politics aside, is it that hard to just acknowledge that my gender identity is real and call it a day? Because if not, all you're asking for is for me to let you win by default.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Never said you don't exist. Ever. You have a problem with interpreting my views as a threat, despite me doing precisely fuck all to you in any capacity. That's on you and for you to deal with, don't you fucking dare make it my problem.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
It's funny that you claim I'm the one having trouble interpreting your views, while also misreading the very simple thing I just said. I didn't claim that you were saying I don't exist. I claimed that you were saying my gender identity didn't exist, which is, uh, true.

We really don't have to argue about this. I am here, I have a gender that is neither male nor female. Literally all you have to do is acknowledge that.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I've misread nothing. You're making a demand of me to just accept your version of truth and leave it alone. No, I won't.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Well then I can hardly do the same, can I? You're telling me right now that you can't leave aside politics. So you can't ask me to leave aside politics, either.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I'm not telling people to leave aside politics, I'm saying that abusing people for their political beliefs is evil. There's a difference.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Fair enough. It's not as though I've done that anyway, I've only come here to bring my viewpoint to the discussion. Is it really so harmful to just respect my identity, though? I'm not making some big claim on truth here, or claiming to know how anyone else experiences gender, least of all the 95% or however many who are happy with the gender they were assigned at birth. But I do know how I experience gender, and on that basis I feel like it's only decent that I get to choose what gender I'm referred by, just as we generally agree that (online at least) I get to choose my own name. You haven't accused me of trying to push some agenda or view of the truth by expecting you to call me Reiko.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
I don't know you, nor do I want to, so I'm not calling you anything.
Reiko
6 years, 8 months ago
Way to dodge the question.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Your asking a question does not obligate me to answer it, I don't know you or even what you identify as, so how can I respect your identity when I have no idea what the fuck it even is? I can't respect the identity of anyone I don't know, its impossible. You're not an acquaintance or a friend, we have never had a normal conversation and we'll never be interacting after this either, so your question is irrelevant.
Delquea
6 years, 8 months ago
In order for people to come together, they need to acknowledge their own base ain't 100% correct just as their opposition is. In the US, the chances of this happening is nearly nonexistent as people refuse to accept accountability or realize their own stance have many ideological flaws. I even witnessed the right wings claiming those right wing radicals are confused left wings (the left is guilty of this too but not as much as the right). The Divide is so massive because of how no one is willing to call out their own base and focus strictly on the opposition. Its only after they get called out by their own base they start pinning the blame.

As a Liberal-Conservative (yes thats a thing to people who is questioning that) I kept a neutral point of view and is more than willing to call out my base and the opposition because I have enough common sense to come to a mutual understanding with others, providing they aren't dismissing my words or insulting me cos they can't handle disagreement.

Sadly out of everyone I talked to here. I only have a mutual understanding with just 5 people.
Pilou
6 years, 8 months ago
I think what you describe is the very strong tendency (illness?) for wanting to be right (not as in left and right). That's what drives also most people to 'debate' where most often than not, the goal is to prove the other wrong.

I think there is a lot more value in (being) useful than right.
DirtyGoat
6 years, 8 months ago
*makes a 'call for sanity' post saying this 'isn't about politics'*

*proceeds to advance a bigoted, grade-school understanding of gender and call leftists 'communists' and 'authoritarians'*

Oh Roarey, your total lack of self-awareness is so entertaining.  
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Bigot: someone intolerant and hateful of those with differing points of view. I don't hate people who disagree with me, people like you who disagree with me, however, hate me. You're the bigots, simple.
DirtyGoat
6 years, 8 months ago
Being intolerant of bigotry is not itself bigotry.  Simple.

And really?  You don't hate authoritarian communists (who aren't your enemies anyway?)
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
No, I don't hate communists (authoritarian doesn't need to be added, there's no communism that isn't authoritarian), I think they're utterly misguided and I find their ideas abhorrent. But I'll never be in favour of destroying their careers or lives for their beliefs. You have called my opinion bigoted, justifying your actual bigotry and attacking me as a person. You haven't argued with me, you've simply claimed I'm an ignorant sack of shit and you expressly take pleasure in the fact that people are trying to ruin me for my opinion. It's what bigots always do, they invent a justification for that bigotry, in your case you claim I'm a bigot and really you're just bigoted against bigotry. Er, no. I don't do what you do to people who don't agree with me, for not agreeing with me. To get me to behave with the kind of aggression you have shown me, people have to actually attack me first and I will react in self defence. You came to me, you're the bigot, perfectly simple.
DirtyGoat
6 years, 8 months ago
Congrats!  You don't understand how communism works AND you don't understand how bigotry works.

Read a book, wouldja?
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Haha! I've only read Kapital, the Communist Manifesto and academic critiques of communism. Oh and Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. Not to mention all the lectures by professors. You think I'm the one who needs to read books? Dude, I've forgotten more shit than you've ever learned, do some reading yourself.
DirtyGoat
6 years, 8 months ago
Oh dear, such lies.
RoareyRaccoon
6 years, 8 months ago
Liar am I? No, I don't lie. Here's the books and my non-fiction section in my flat.
http://imgur.com/a/Lqnyx
Try again! Telling me I need to read is a joke haha.
Straitfox
6 years, 8 months ago
All I can tell you is people were being morons.

It was just a picture, nothing but funny!
MadDog
6 years, 8 months ago
(I only troll people who attack me)

Once again this is false. You've trolled me when I had not attacked you.
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