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AvaBun

Noticing Disturbing Trends

by
Hmm... So it seems that the cubfur community has become the beta test flunkie group for furry/general art sites.

None are more prepared and wise about their approach than InkBunny's administration so far, as each stream, art, and community site that has opened its doors to the cubfur community has summarily shut them the moment they decided to launch their ship. Be it for legal reasons or otherwise, they lack the either the resources or sheer gall to actually stand up for some of the current lower rung of this fandom.
After the fourth consecutive time this has happened (if you count Weasyl in the bunch) since FA's mass-ban that reinforced this site to become what it is today, I think it's time for the cubfur community to start practicing looking before it leaps.

If an administration doesn't already have a plan to reinforce its cub community in its beta, it more than likely can't be arsed to do so at its launch. No matter how nice the administration, the issue needs to be addressed before wallets are being thrown and art gallery homes are built on infertile grounds. Do not be a pawn in the startup of another site that will let you down when it decides that you're not worth investing at least some effort in to protect or hang on to.

Furthermore, the cubfur community should continue to support those who already support it. Until such a time comes where a streaming service with the balls to actually support the niche comes, the behemoth which carries them must needs be nurtured and loved as much as possible... As it is probably the last and only leg the community has.


- Paupë
Viewed: 327 times
Added: 6 years, 8 months ago
 
39 Comments on this Journal
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Keeran
Keeran
6 years, 8 months ago
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I think it's probably due we as a community create a streaming service independent of other companies.
Taleir
Taleir
6 years, 8 months ago
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Basically how InkBunny came into being.  It's a little unfortunate that FA used IB's existence to feel a little better about banishing cub-furs ("It's okay to do this, since they've got InkBunny to go to!"), but in the end, InkBunny is a better place, both as a place for cub-furs and being better managed, maintained, administrated...

I honestly feel bad for everyone still on FurAffinity.  They're putting up with a lot just so they don't have to associate with "pedo-furs".

So, I'd support a streaming service that did specifically support cubs and adult stuff in-general.  I dislike not having a good place to stream erotic games on.
Keeran
Keeran
6 years, 8 months ago
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I'm contemplating on doing so, but I need to figure out how i can do so. I'd need to create my own domain, or buy one out. Then i'd need to find someone here who has a shit-ton of servers to host the site. Thirdly,  after creating the site, I'd  allow not just cubs, but loli and shota as well so lolicon/shotacon artists have a home too. Only thing I likely wouldn't allow is 3D artwork or 2D artwork that looks almost indistinguishable to the real thing. I'd rather not have the FBI get me for that lol.
Ketsa
Ketsa
6 years, 8 months ago
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I'm hoping Inkbunny might add some sort of their own streaming service in the near future.

That aside, the overall journal message is a good reason to keep up on donations!
raichushock78
raichushock78
6 years, 8 months ago
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Well said. I mean I don't know much about these other sites or how any of this works, but I hope this community continues to thrive and doesn't get filtered out anytime soon.
TwoTails
TwoTails
6 years, 8 months ago
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Why, what happened?
I thought Pixel allowed cub art streams, did they stop, or they just not usable enough for more people than just me?
AvaBun
AvaBun
6 years, 8 months ago
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Yeah, they just went live and stopped. I don't personally know if they banned everyone who streamed cub work, but it has been banned as a subject matter.

Say goodbye to piczel.
IsabelleUrsaga
IsabelleUrsaga
6 years, 8 months ago
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I have actually heard very conflicting information about that. A lot of people are saying the ban was only on shota and loli stuff, not cub. Others are saying what you're saying. I'm not sure what to believe really.
KURORAK
KURORAK
6 years, 8 months ago
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Their TOS is still really vague than the last time I checked it, which was months ago. It only says "person", so to me that only sounds like "humans". But please do tell me if I'm wrong. Either way I know Picarto was veeery strict about it but I haven't heard Piczel being on the same ground in the cub case.
Ruffy
Ruffy
6 years, 8 months ago
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Yeah its going to have to be born out of the community like IB was.  As you said, those not of the community would just rather not put up with the hassle of working out if its legal, not legal, or somewhere in between where it would just be weird and awkward to deal with the non-cub people who would use the site vs the rather niche community that would be pro-cub (as well as the quiet supporters).  I lack the knowledge and skill for such a thing, but maybe someone will~
RetroFutureArt
RetroFutureArt
6 years, 8 months ago
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Extremely well said dude, honestly it's crazy how we keep lettting this happen yknow???
Kupok
Kupok
6 years, 8 months ago
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I feel any site is better then FurAffinity, regardless of Cub status. I did not migrate off FA for cub reasons, I did so because FA is a security nightmare and will never change or improve either in it's function or it's administration.

Although, for your concern, FA is "The Standard." If FA is destroyed, the new standard becomes what is the most well built and most reliable in both function and administration. If you believe in both the return of that which you desire, and in the competency of the administration here on InkBunny, it may be in your best interest to focus not on the new sites that crop up, but rather on the improvement, fix, takeover, or destruction of FA.
Taleir
Taleir
6 years, 8 months ago
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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner
I know GreenReaper would prefer the "improvement" and "fix" part of that hypothetical.  He likes IB's current growth rate, and if FA suddenly died, it'd mean a huge glut of refugees coming to IB (as well as migrating to other sites) putting a huge amount of strain on the current server infrastructure.

For all of FA's problems, it is running decently with an active user-base around four times that of InkBunny, and stores and serves over 10 times the number of submissions as InkBunny, some going back as far as 2005.  That's not an easy task.  They get my kudos for that much.
Kupok
Kupok
6 years, 8 months ago
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For unrelated reasons, I also would prefer improvement and fix.

On the reasons of raw storage, That's not as difficult today. Even our household with a fraction of the budget of IB has well over 200TB. And this person, Bane of some of the administration and anyone who's tried to disappear themselves since 2008 casually archives and hosts all FA works after 2008 including what's been deleted. https://vj5pbopejlhcbz4n.onion.link/fa/kupok/ (Replace "Kupok" with any FA username and see anything they may have deleted!)

IB would have some slowdown if all those users popped over, But IB could handle it.
I want FA to improve though because it's the face of the fandom, and always will be. I cannot change that. Because of it being perceived as the place "Everybody uses," there are many who will remain there under all circumstances short of a catastrophic failure of the service.
Taleir
Taleir
6 years, 8 months ago
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Aye, but it isn't JUST raw storage.  It's also the infrastructure to store, locate, cache, thumbnail, and serve that data at a rapid pace.  And then even THAT says nothing of the infrastructure to construct and deliver the pleasant presentation that helps you find what you want to see in the first place.

Running a website (especially a decently popular one) is far from a simple thing to do.  IB is considered pretty small, among similar community-forming websites, and it has over 10 different servers, spanning the globe, all coordinating together to get the latest smut of Tails (or whatever floats your boat) shown on your browser in less than 100 milliseconds.

What FA and IB do is far from trivial.  I don't know if FA will ever get their fancy new interface and features to bring it up to parity with its competitors, but we can at least respect them for not letting the community completely down by imploding under the weight of all those users.  :P
moyomongoose
moyomongoose
6 years, 8 months ago
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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner
If FA "suddenly died", that would not be a good thing. That is because everyone who use to have FA as their main site would flock over to IB, then most of them would start demanding that IB adopts the same AUP as FA had.

And even if they didn't get their way, my guess is many of them would begin trolling those of us who do post NSFW cub art.
Considering the activist mindset being what it is, I wouldn't put it past some of them to start hacking accounts.
Taleir
Taleir
6 years, 8 months ago
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Well, IB's policies make it clear that such behavior is not allowed.  If you join IB, you agree to be "accepting" of other content and you're meant to "deal with it" yourself if something someone else does offends you.  InkBunny provides facilities for self-moderation to make this possible.

But, sure, there would be vocal people who would probably try to change the policies, force their views on others, and harass the user-base.  But, IB has no centralized means of communication.  No forum, no official chat, and your journals are only delivered to people who care enough to watch you (and haven't disabled the notifications of journals from you).

Such a movement would have a lot of trouble getting traction.  It'd most likely just end up in an echo-chamber of people all agreeing with themselves, and the people who don't agree would just ban them from their accounts so they don't have to hear about their intolerance.  :P

This lack of centralized communication is intentional, and helps to keep movements like these from snow-balling and throwing the community into chaos.

I also would hope IB's staff would apply the rules and start banning people who would go about harassing other users, though.
moyomongoose
moyomongoose
6 years, 8 months ago
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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner
I have a hunch that if FA were to die out, there would be a lot of anti-cub former FA users opening IB accounts, and then imediatly getting banned for starting all kinds of harrassment and trolling over cubs being in sexual scinarios...I'm thinking some of their accounts might last for only about, oh say, 30 to 40 minutes (just long enough to start trolling other artists, getting reported, then getting banned)..
My guess is, it would be then that those former FA users would hop on over to FN.

You know...kind of like a hurricane that blew through and is then gone.
Taleir
Taleir
6 years, 8 months ago
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Welp, I'd be alright with that result.  :P  I'm sure they'd be very happy over at FurryNetwork.  They already got their way there once.
Wuvvums
Wuvvums
6 years, 8 months ago
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Why would IB be the logical next step from furaffinity? Many artists I'm seeing are migrating to twitter/tumblr to post their work. I'm just curious.
moyomongoose
moyomongoose
6 years, 8 months ago
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Some of the dumb things some folks do never suprises me...That's why.
tkongingi
tkongingi
6 years, 8 months ago
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Better start backing up your stuff before IB decides to toss you under the bus as well.
AvaBun
AvaBun
6 years, 8 months ago
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what...?
Kupok
Kupok
6 years, 8 months ago
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Vauge statements that bait people into starting a private conversation with you so you can speak ill of something or someone under the cover of darkness is unfair to everyone. If you plan to speak ill, speak openly or not at all.

Though it may afford GreenReaper a chance to defend himself, Whatever you have to say will seem more honest and have more impact.

To my knowledge, GreenReaper has never attempted to "disappear" criticism, or punish those in open criticism of him or his works. Which on it's own speaks volumes better of him then Dragoneer.
AvaBun
AvaBun
6 years, 8 months ago
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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner
I get that the statement seems to more ominously imply that IB will drop the ball, letting the 9% that cubfurs make up of the community drop off, but I'm honestly slightly more concerned on how that will effect me.

Part of my confusion with the statement is the fact that the number of actual submissions in my gallery featuring cub characters at all is relatively minor. If push came to shove I could delete those images and not at all lose most of my gallery. Furthermore this journal was written as an observation, not a declaration of collusion. I don't consider myself a part of the cubfur community and don't see how IB or GR would toss me under a bus.

I mean, unless they were specifically targeting eastern influenced artists and shooing away the Japanese crowd that did happen to find its way here.

Is
tkongingi
tkongingi
's implication one that baits cubfurs, kemonofurs, or my gallery specifically...--becomes the question i need to ask because i'm very confused here xD
tkongingi
tkongingi
6 years, 8 months ago
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I thought what I meant was pretty clear. Other sites/companies have broken their promises to cub artists before when they became big enough that expansion requires following the diktats of investors who are generally hostile to cub. The takeaway is that (general you) should not trust ANY of your hosts no matter how gracious or nice they seem now.
Kupok
Kupok
6 years, 8 months ago
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I have observed Laurence Parry since the founding of WikiFur in 2005, a few years before it moved off of Wikicities. Though he's had to walk a delicate balance between being informative, and being invasive with his service, in the 12 years I've watched his works earnestly (I inherently mistrust journalists and reporters) he has failed to betray his word once given.

For me, 12 years seems like a sufficient amount of time to earn some degree of faith. You are not me of course, the circumstances of your life experience may have extended the required time to earn faith, and/or you may not have been observing him for quite so long a time.

Your caution however, is not wrong.
But I have faith. In the future, You may disagree with GreenReaper for some of his actions and beliefs, you may even hate or dislike him. But you will be unable to truthfully say "His word cannot be trusted because of [specific event]!"
TwoTails
TwoTails
6 years, 8 months ago
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I'd have to agree with that cynicism to some degree. When people don't take things seriously then things usually go awry.
Assuming nothing can go wrong with IB is a good way to make sure it does go wrong.
One of the reasons I grow increasingly disgusted with people because this deliberate lack of paying attention and the hell it makes.

There's a weird irony to it though, expecting & preparing for the worst is a somewhat decent way to stave it off, if one can.

Loosely related: the Cassandra curse.
AvaBun
AvaBun
6 years, 8 months ago
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Edited 6 years, 8 months ago by Owner
While I agree to an extent, it's also important to not bite the hand that feeds. Being respectful and supportive of a site that actually has gone through with some measure of preparation, rather than growing openly suspicious of them, will go a longer way.

Besides, if we as people only take actions that will further isolate us, then we will lose our means of staying connected.

... That said, I'd still like to reiterate that a ban of cub-nsfw works would not effect me as much as it would most others. Everything I've observed should be taken with that grain of salt. |3
TwoTails
TwoTails
6 years, 8 months ago
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The part about being disgusted with the human race was meant in general, considering how the world is lately.

For now it seems IB has gotten their act together more than most sites, like I'd say run better than like Twitter.
So I'm not currently upset with IB's admins/mods, that time years ago when I was, was because of a bad case of irresponsible double-talk/double standards/ left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing/inconsistent AUP & broken promises that affected more than a few artists.
But that's sorta expected from a new site, that was a shakeout of flaws.

But doesn't matter if they're respectable now, hard to say who will be running it later, plus anyone can go nuts or A-hole if they don't keep an eye on their own issues.
The comparison goes back to FA & DA, those and their admin used to be widely respectable then buyouts & corruption/lack of giving a shit happened.
And then yeah, chickening out to oppressive laws is possible too.
Being aware is better than getting blindsided.
Bianca
Bianca
6 years, 8 months ago
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Was it a disturbing trend? Was Piczel a response to Picarto's underage art ban? Or were they just the two popular services?

IB's been boldly treading water as an openly cubfur community. But, is it more the product of the furry ecosystem or is it just a niche within a niche?

Like, anything cub has to be tagged as it's considered a fetish. But, beyond that it's not regulated to the extent that Loli/Shota are. Which by the way, are unambiguously forbidden in countries like say, Canada and the US. Though, as yet there hasn't been any notable cases where loli, shota, or cub have been the sole prosecution. (Unfortunately tied with physical underaged porn.)

As for services needing the fortitude to support such a commonly disapproved subset, can you blame them? Does IB have the legal counsel and funds to combat any potential court cases that arise? Will they be able to support the community and themselves as what would probably be a lengthy court case?

All that said, would you be willing to give up your ability to post explicit cub art for the sake of the community if it came down to it? It can go both ways where despite best intentions, no one wins.
Aogami
Aogami
6 years, 8 months ago
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Yep. Everyone who early adopted Piczel and gave them money in the hopes that they were supporting a streaming service that allowed cub just got fucked right in the wallet.
AvaBun
AvaBun
6 years, 8 months ago
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I knoooow... I feel so bad for them when i think of it that way. >_<
Aogami
Aogami
6 years, 8 months ago
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it's dishonest is what it is, but I guess those people did get to enjoy/use the service for a bit.
Tahla
Tahla
6 years, 8 months ago
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Piczel at the very least should have either refunded people when they changed their TOS for the remainder of their membership, or exempted anyone who had paid before the date of the TOS change from those rules until their membership ran out. Then it would have simply been an unfortunate turn of events, rather than a backhanded slap in the face and a rip off.
Aogami
Aogami
6 years, 8 months ago
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Well, in an ideal world where personal morality trumps financial viability that would be true but since they already have your money it'll never happen =w=
Anonymless
Anonymless
6 years, 8 months ago
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I've noticed how the cub artists are repeatedly pushed out of furry communities as well, and I have much sympathy for them. As a kink, it's not any worse than the graphically violent kinks like torture and gore which are tolerated on most sites today. And it causes lots of problems due to the simple fact that it's impossible to look at a drawing and accurately determine the character's age. It just results in headaches for both the moderator and artist.

For these reasons I support InkBunny's administration since they are the only ones to reliably stand with the cub fandom over the years. That said, the website is not a full replacement for FurAffinity since they are not allowing human characters in porn, so any creators like me who wish to include humans cannot use it for our work. It's a mess and I wish there was one site that would satisfy all furries, but for now we are stuck using different sites and lurking on others.
Malachyte
Malachyte
6 years, 8 months ago
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Sad as it is, I think you have a good point here. I'll be making more of an effort to push for answers on this before I join a site, rather than during.
Tahla
Tahla
6 years, 8 months ago
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The trouble is it's so easy for websites to simply lie, or go back on their promises when it suits their purposes better. Furry Network did exactly that. They were explicit in that they would always allow cub art- that was until a particularly popular artist from FurAffinity decided to throw a hissy fit about it and rile up all the anti-cub furs out there. Since FN was wanting to attract the money maker artists out there, they very quickly went back on their pledge to be an open and accepting art site, most annoyingly after a lot of cub artists had already gone there, made accounts and excitedly helped to advertise their website.

The sad thing is, most people out there don't care either way. They aren't into cub art, but it's existence doesn't bother them either, because they realize that it's just art. But since they don't care, they can't be expected to stand up for cub artists either. It's just that noisy anti-cub group makes so damn much noise.  :<
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