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MystBunny

Hmm.. sexual harassment

This journal is probably going to be just random ramblings, but I would still like to voice my concerns over the current social climate. I do believe having this conversation is a good thing, but it just seems to me that the conversation is pretty one-sided. It seems to me that you either agree with the recipients of said harassment, be they women or men 100%, or you're a misogynistic asshole who's promoting rape culture. It's not really a conversation if one side is deciding all the rules, right?

Bear in mind that as a bi male who enjoys sexual advances from other men, it's very difficult for me to fully understand the demands of the other side, or sometimes the personal boundaries themselves. That is of course a good reason to have the conversation, but at the same time, I don't respond well to being lectured on proper social behavior. I want to have input, and I want to be taken seriously. I want to be treated as a person, not a simple creep just because I want to know if sexual interaction is a possibility.

So here's my side. I understand that people trying to raise awareness on sexual harassment mean well, but I also think they're inadvertently leading us to a kind of ideology where people could conceivably be punished for their thoughts rather than their actions. We here on Inkbunny know exactly how that tends to work, right?

"No means no."
This right here is of course a no-brainer. If someone says no, or tells you to stop, you should stop. I think we can all agree on that one. But at the risk of sounding sarcastic, apparently that's not enough. People are now making the argument that a person should wait for consent to make sexual advances. I both agree and disagree with this. I mean I can see how for some people, if the first thing you say to them is that you want to fuck them, I can see how this might turn a lot of people off. Still, where does this boundary end? I've been noticing this trend of the boundaries being pushed further outward, bit by bit, to the point where it could some day be unacceptable to even talk to someone at all, unless they approach you first and say "hey you can talk to me now".

Touching, yes, I would say that any touching should require consent first. Describing what you want to do to someone, yeah I can kinda understand that too in most circumstances. Then we get into the idea that it's sexual harassment to compliment someone's looks (or in the case of the furry fandom, sometimes just their fursona's looks count). At this point it seems to be entering a bit of a grey area. No I don't believe it's required that the recipient take that as a compliment, and should be able to tell someone that's not okay, but what about that initial comment? Is it really sexual harassment to compliment someone's looks if they haven't specifically said that that's okay? This is where I think the one-sided conversation is starting to push us in a concerning direction. Where do these arbitrary boundaries stop? Are they going to keep pushing outward until you are legally required to keep a 10 foot distance between yourself and anyone you're sexually attracted to? Maybe it won't get that far, but I hope you can see my point here.

Again, as a bi male who enjoys sexual advancement from other men, whether I give permission first or not, I don't like the idea that people might one day be afraid to talk to me for fear I might call the cops, or vice versa. I don't want a world where everyone is afraid to be attracted to someone, and misses a chance to interact with someone who might be receptive because of this idea of "rape culture" that's being planted in our heads.

I just can't buy the idea that inadvertently making someone uncomfortable is the same as harassment. Just because someone takes it too far doesn't mean you should assume that everyone is going to.
Viewed: 120 times
Added: 6 years, 9 months ago
 
mouse24
6 years, 9 months ago
Well there a a problem with rape having double standard treatment, but i think over arching problem is people are looking for something to blame and a "easy fix" law as opsed to actually looking at the multitude of variables and causes that led to the problem of the double standard and other issues that have cropped up.
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
You mean like "This person was a rapist and this person did nothing about it, therefore everyone should be perceived as either a rapist or supporting rape"?
mouse24
6 years, 9 months ago
ye, that type of over simplification is the problem. people seem to laws that make them either feel safer or look like they did something as opsed to actually trying to fix the issues.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
What I REALLY don't get is.. why do people go insane when you try to teach "How to avoid rape" classes? Dude, I WANT to know how not to get raped. Lack of rape prevention knowledge is only for particularly adorable cubs!
Farrel
6 years, 9 months ago
I think there are a few reasons folks go nuts... In my mind none of 'em great reasons... But, off the top of my head.

"Why should I have to take a class? As the potential victim, I'm not the one doing anything wrong here. You should be teaching the rapist that it's wrong to rape."

... Which completely ignores the very likely case that the would-be rapist knows that it's wrong and doesn't care.

"If this kind of class is allowed, they're going to start blaming the victim for not doing what the classes say!"

... Which doesn't consider that maybe they won't be a victim at all as a result. Said classes, of course, won't eliminate the problem, folks will still get raped, but maybe the number of victims will go down if fewer potential victims are seen as easy opportunities.

"Why should I have to change how I dress and have fun?! I have a right to enjoy my life how I want to. It's not my responsibility to not get raped!"

... Which is kinda only half true to my mind... After all, it IS my responsibility to lock my house when I'm not in so it doesn't get broken into. It IS my responsibility to park my car somewhere safe so it doesn't get stolen or broken into. When out in public, it IS my responsibility to keep money and valuables safe so it doesn't get stolen... It IS my responsibility to keep my pubes out of any sources of fire so they don't get burned etc. etc.

Whilst of course, all of these things can happen (and all but one have happened) it is still my responsibility to try and reduce the chances and the potential damage. Sure, with the possible exception of pubic arson, the police are there to try and help with the aftermath. But they can't really help with prevention... There are things I can do to prevent 'em which other people can't do. Ergo, my responsibility. That doesn't mean in any way that anyone who actually enacts any of those situations upon someone else is less of a criminal, but there are steps only I can take to reduce the liklihood of my being the victim.

I could rant all day on this particular subject tho', but there's a much more interesting topic and a market gap, I feel.

Just where are the classes that cater to subby fantasies? Where are the "Gagging for it? How to attract rape!" classes? ;3

Seriously, we could kill a few birds with one stone here! (not seriously really, but a fun thought.)
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
... you will have soooooo many of my babies.
Stumpycoon
6 years, 9 months ago
I think that the problem with this issue in general is that all the examples are "clearly and obviously sexual harassment" so the answer is always "clearly and obviously sexual harassment" and no-one addresses anything less...but that's where all the questions are.

For instance at work yesterday one of my coworkers (who works in the indigenous people's culture and history department) was wearing a shirt done with traditional styles and artwork, it looked good and was not over-the-top and I said "that's a great shirt" one time as she passed.  Someone would have to stretch that situation a lot to make that into sexual harassment.

Here in Australia we also have some laws which basically say "it's sexual harassment if someone feels sexually harassed".  We haven't had an example of that taken to the stupid extreme yet, but in theory if someone says "good morning" to me today and I cry sexual harassment it would be up to the other person to prove they did not make me feel sexually harassed.  And what's to stop someone saying "being accused of sexual harassment makes me feel sexually harassed"?  That's right, nothing.  

Or in other words, when this stuff is taken too far, both 'sides' are at risk from it.  

I think that in all of this there needs to be more focus on people's motives not their feelings.  If someone was motivated to sexually harass someone should matter more than if someone wondered if someone else was trying something.  Not that feelings aren't important, but I think the motive (or lack thereof) is more important.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
Well it's a massive mens rea and actus rea conflict... Guilty mind and guilty action, for the non-latin. Essentially, the problem is that just about ANY action is guilty... and you need the guilty MIND, aka intent, to make it actually criminal. They've bypassed that now so that they only care about the action, not the intent. Say I elbow you in the face because I don't know you're there... that's sad and I should apologize. If i do it because I'm a dick and want to see your nose break, that's assault and I need to be in jail. Sexual harassment just skips straight to "He's a dick! Throw him in jail!"
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
Pretty much this. Mistakes can and will be made. They should never be considered equal to a crime.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
Well the thing is.. Anything is rape. There's stare rape, thought rape, speech rape, logo rape, sign rape, fart rape... yes, fart rape. If ANYTHING is rape, then EVERYTHING is sexual harassment if you catch someone on a bad day. One of the new guides for working guys is "never talk to a woman alone and away from cameras".
Farrel
6 years, 9 months ago
The sad thing is that they claim internet culture has taken all of the meaning out of the word... Describing extreme losses in video games as rape... Bad music as ear rape and so on.

No, not really, it uses the sting of the term to bring just how awful the music or whatever was.

What DOES take the sting out of the word rape is to try and apply it to everything you don't like and then get folks prosecuted on the basis of it. If looking at someone is rape and you should be ashamed of it... If farting is rape and you should be ashamed of it. Then you don't put them on the same level of forcing sexual activity on an unwilling participant... You bring that act down to them instead.

Heh... Maybe it's some twisted plan to achieve just that actually... When everything is rape, the term rape is meaningless, so nothing's rape, including rape... Society adjusts, rape becomes normalised and eventually decriminalised as either "emergency sex" or "demonstrating in clear terms just how much I love them."
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
I've been watching the original Planet of the Apes movies (pretty good actually) and if there is a such thing as ear rape.. it's the second movie >.< The sound effects late into it were horrendously high-pitched, even for the times. Had to keep adjusting the volume up to hear dialog, and down to save my ear-drums from being pierced by sound-wave-cock
Farrel
6 years, 9 months ago
*nods* I remember the noise... And y'see? That still preserves the severity of the term 'rape' as something deeply unpleasant, damaging and something that was forced upon you...

Then again, did you dress your ears up all slutty and stuff? were they drunk? *tuts* I bet they secretly wanted it, didn't they?
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
*cries*
Farrel
6 years, 9 months ago
*Rolls his eyes and pets until the ears stop crying, but refuses to prosecute the film until evidence for consent or lack thereof presents itself*
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
*waits patiently... then swoops in the moment the ears have calmed before shoving massive koopa cock into them to they may experience PROPER rape*
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
... You will have my babies now for posting that.
Farrel
6 years, 9 months ago
Oooh, who gets to play Mommie?
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
*snickers* well since Koopas are half dragon... It's very likely I can get ANYTHING pregnant.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
But, if I may be so... insane... I see a grand upsurgence in gay/bi relationships. Mostly because women are becoming more legally terrifying by the day. Guys are pretty chill and ignored by the court system so hitting on them isn't a big deal. The worst a guy can do is kick your ass. A woman can take your job, get guys to kick your ass FOR them, sue you, and then take all your shit.
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
Well it's possible the upsurgance in bi and gay relationships are more because of the increased tolerance of homosexuality, as well as the increased density in population resulting in more homosexuals being born. Although yeah I have to admit, this kind of thing does make me a little more wary of talking to women. I want to try not to let that stop me though, because consciously I know they're not ALL on the lookout for a chance to claim themselves a victim.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
A wise shitlord once said to me.. "look, dumbass, you're being offered a candybowl. All the candy looks the same. YOU know 8 our of 10 pieces are poisoned. And people are demanding you grab one and chow down. Are YOU dumb enough to eat that candy?"
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
I wouldn't say 8 out of 10. More like 1 out of 100 will poison you, 10 will cause nausea, 10 will cause a slight headache, and 10 will get you stoned out of your head. Might be worth trying for those last 10 depending on how bad the poison is.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
Yeah, but the stoned ones will retroactively charge your ass for eating them at a completely random price.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
Still... I suppose I can't say much on the subject. IRL I'm pretty much asexual. Seriously, I don't find humans attractive at all. Most DOGS are more appealing.
Soulfire
6 years, 9 months ago
no only means no if the woman does not like you .. i am soo glad i like men more.. women are irrelevant i am thinking
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
Well unfortunately I've seen some pretty concerning posts from one or two male furs on the same subject, so nobody's really immune
Farrel
6 years, 9 months ago
Sadly, my honest opinion is that it's all pretty much a play for social power.

If you can engineer a situation where your group can inflict legal retribution upon another group with no requirement for evidence and no defense, you have power over that group and can start raking them for whatever benefits you'd like on threat of "I'll tell everyone you raped me."

I know it's a cynical way to look at it, but yeah, it's kinda the way it seems to be to me. I won't go into personal examples, but yeah, in recent years it's seemed to be getting worse and I find myself glad for several reasons to be with the guy I'm with now.

I'm not saying there isn't an opposite side to the discussion, but I can't help feeling that today's society isn't going the wrong way about it.
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
Well like I said, I know that a lot of people trying to set these boundaries mean well, but it WILL be taken to the extreme, and the extreme will become the norm, and people will start ignoring all the rules because most of them are ridiculous, and the situation will become worse.
Farrel
6 years, 9 months ago
Exactly... I mean it's not like existing stuff isn't abused already and I do feel for those who mean well. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a world where everyone is happy and comfortable and feels safe... But the key word there is 'everyone'.

It's kinda why I find myself agreeing with a lot of mens rights advocates. In a lot of cases (although not all, it's not like their side doesn't have extremists too) they seem to be genuinely interested in solutions for all rather than solving a problem for one gender by pushing problems on the other.

And I've heard voices from the other side who are more reasonable too... But as ever, it seems the reasonable voices on both sides are just drowned out in the storm of the extremes... and it seems to be the extremes who seem to be trying to bring the weight of 'the masses' to push their extreme agendas... Which much of the mass doesn't really agree with wholeheartedly.

Or at least, that's how I hope it is... The alternative seems kinda chilling. (That there are more minds on the extremes than near the centre)
Khzhak
6 years, 9 months ago
I'm on the fence about this.  I regularly voice that I love creepy, and consent must be given first, so then when I'm at a convention or something, and I ask if they're single or in an open relationship, I never go more than one more step each time.  And as soon as I hear no, I turn it all off, say 'OK', and move on to the next topic.  I've had a few say I creep them out, but since I never - well, I try not to - ask someone that's already said no, I generally don't have too much of a problem.  I've had good days, and bad days, but I think because I put myself out there, I've had better good days than bad bad days.
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
I definitely think peoples' "creep" threshold is very very low nowadays
furryfriendly
6 years, 9 months ago
And this is why I find today's left just as bad as today's right nowadays. Give me back my center now!
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
Ehh, you'll never get it back. They pretty much killed the ability to be centrist in the US by changing the way the parties meet. They're actually not allowed to meet due to scheduling which essentially causes them to become deeply incestuous and closed off from each other.
MarcusKoopa
6 years, 9 months ago
And since they can't meet and can't socialize anymore, they stopped compromising or understanding. And each election cycle makes the division more extreme. The sides don't even KNOW each other anymore which makes it easy to label each other at horrific evils.
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
If you're equating the left to the Democrats, that's the problem. They're not leftists, with the exception of a few. Nearly everyone in congress is to the right. Though if you're talking about SJWs, they're disliked by both the right and the left. Saying that either of those groups represent the left is a vast over-simplification.
furryfriendly
6 years, 9 months ago
I am talking about SJWs, actually. I thought that's what you were describing in fact. If SJWs aren't left, then what are they? Or did you mean in the sense of an open-closed political spectrum?
MystBunny
6 years, 9 months ago
Not saying the SJWs aren't leftists. Just that the rest of the left isn't too fond of them =P
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