It doesn't get talked about much, how people get sucked into ideologies, but this is exactly the way that you become susceptible to unreasonable worldviews: one small step at a time.
Edit: Locked because this is... really more of a general informational thing than an active discussion.
My thoughts about this as I read it: - It's much easier to make a simple lie presentable than it is to explain a messy truth. - Occam's Razor only applies when the explanatory value of the propositions is equal. An explanation that's simpler because it doesn't account for all the facts does not qualify. - It's an compelling argument for letting the despicable views see the light so they can be countered; the converse of that is having to trust the brilliant track record our media has in challenging someone's views. - SIWOTI Syndrome happens, in part, because you feel personally responsible for the ideas you're defending. My antidote was to realize that my failure to articulate my arguments during a discussion with randos on the internet was only evidence of my own inadequacy.
My thoughts about this as I read it: - It's much easier to make a simple lie presentable than it is
Great read. There's another guy, a former white national whose name escapes me who now works to help rehabilitate young people who get caught up in their vile bullshit. It's good work that needs to be done, and it's great to see folks who were stuck there themselves trying to make amends.
Now what's really disconcerting is the almost inevitable fact of apologists coming to defend white nationalists in this very thread, almost certainly before the end of the day. That's depressing if not surprising.
Great read. There's another guy, a former white national whose name escapes me who now works to help
Very intriguing. An interesting read I personally just see everyone as equal. I don't see black and white, I see human and human. Same thing for men and women, same for religious folk, same for orientation. I try to love everyone equally. The only people who earn my chagrin are those who infringe on the human rights of others.
Very intriguing. An interesting read I personally just see everyone as equal. I don't see black and
That can be a problematic worldview actually. People are different, and while race or gender may not be a significant indicator as to what a person is like, things like religion definitely do, as that's a cultural thing, and culture is a big divider of people.
That can be a problematic worldview actually. People are different, and while race or gender may no
Interesting read, I'm always aware of the double language many groups today use and the types of mental gymnastics they go through to share and believe in their views.
It begs the question of conscious intent though. The most insidious part to me is the seemingly greater number of individual's who do this unknowingly, blissfully wrapped up in feelings of doing/sharing 'good'.
Interesting read, I'm always aware of the double language many groups today use and the types of men
The same rules apply to MRA recruiters. I read something very similar about someone who talked about his time in one of the many MRA groups out there, and it read very much like this.
A guy I knew in college has gone very far down the rabbit hole of white ultranationalism since I knew him some years ago, and the Entropy taking over the country really galvanized him. Now he regularly posts videos of white guys beating up a black guy and going "Ha ha ha look at them beat up this stupid *U%@#$(" or spouting some other extreme right, racist bullcrap. I think he also fell into an MRA group; I somewhat remember him posting something stupidly misogynistic at one point.
It seems like the racism is spreading; either that, or the racists feel empowered by recent global events and are coming out of the woodwork.
The same rules apply to MRA recruiters. I read something very similar about someone who talked about
Hm...I'm not sure what to think of this. I don't fall into SJW rhetoric or White Nationalism, I'm not republican or democratic, I don't listen to the news and question literally everything I'm told, and yet many people call me white nationalist because I believe black people can be racist, that I don't like Bernie, Hillary or Trump, that I don't think "POC" (I hate that term) are oppressed, that I believe in equity, not equality, that I'm Egalitarian, that I'm not a feminist and want nothing to do with said group, that I think Islam is, for the most part, incompatible with western society, and that I see these ultra violent radicals "fighting for equality and POC" doing more harm to the people they claim to protect than anything else.
I'm completely middle of the road and yet I'm labeled by anyone who hates me as "left" or "right" because I don't listen to the Young Turks. Funny how the world works.
Hm...I'm not sure what to think of this. I don't fall into SJW rhetoric or White Nationalism, I'm no
Let me ask you something. What would it take for you to believe that people are categorically oppressed? Like what specifically would you need to see for it to be 'real' to you? What proof would conclusively make the case?
Let me ask you something. What would it take for you to believe that people are categorically oppres
Not being able to attend college or enjoy the same freedoms as others, not being able to hold any position of power, being seperated from other races/cultures forceably, being humiliated or degraded purposefully with support from government or media, and making a less wage or no wage at all than any other. This is, however, dependent on where you live. If you're white and live in Africa than having less of a possibility to join college is something that is predicted as you aren't the majority, same with Japan or any majority non-white nation, you won't be targeted but you won't have the same expected standards as the majority in that nation. Again it depends on where you are and how deep it goes, weather the reason you're where you are is personal and weather you were forced to be there through your government or someone who has power over you. In the US of you earn less than a man you can report this and they will be charged. If you are black and get fired for reasons of racism you can sue and win (if there's evidence of either). Everyone has privileges and disadvabtages, but saying that this is "chosen" by a select is just...illogical.
Not being able to attend college or enjoy the same freedoms as others, not being able to hold any po
Yeah, pretty much. It was I stituted by the government whereas what happens today is due to a collection of data (weather wrong or not) and media. That was the minimum of oppression throughout history, every other place in time has had far worse and not as little, I'd say it's the perfect boundary. Unless you want to tell me white people are oppressed because they're not as likely to get into college as Asians in the US lol
Yeah, pretty much. It was I stituted by the government whereas what happens today is due to a collec
White people actually are oppressed. By other white people. I lived in an extremely small town, I'm very cognizant of how simple people- and 'simple' is not a perjorative- can have their livelihoods destroyed by people who think less than nothing of them, and then those same people can convince them that it was the 'other' that took their livelihoods, not the people who profited from it.
White people actually are oppressed. By other white people. I lived in an extremely small town, I'm
I don't see that as oppression unless they're forced by a higher power into those situations, but I can see how it's bad. I learned a while ago not to expect too much from anyone on a social standpoint, I've never seen anything if racism in Texas (coming from someone with a mixed race family) except from people from Spain hating people from Mexico, but I know it exists. Other than that...I think oppression does happen, but on the individual level. It depends on your race, sex, age, who you're approaching, what the subject is, the history behind it, who else is involved and the data that might apply to it. Like did you know all races are stopped by the police as often, but due to data at hand (weather true or not) hispanics and blacks are searched more often? I'd say on that level blacks are oppressed, they're physically forced to stop, it has nothing to do with their actions and everything to do with data that is linked to their race, but it's not because of a decision made to oppress, it's made in an attempt to protect and uphold the law. I think it's fair to say it's an oppression that is on the individual level because it doesn't effect every black person, rich ones or ones with power and influence for example. Does that make any sense to you? :3
I don't see that as oppression unless they're forced by a higher power into those situations, but I
A cop stops somebody. Then based on data, they treat them worse. Which then makes that person distrustful of police. Which then makes it harder to enforce the law. Which then aggravates crime. Which then reinforces the data.
Do you see a problem?
A cop stops somebody. Then based on data, they treat them worse. Which then makes that person distru
I do see one problem: the slippery slope fallacy. Another problem is that it's their decision to act in such a way that causes more untrust. And yet another reason is that I never mentioned "harsh stops", which happen as often as with any race, but that blacks and Hispanics are stopped more...in specific areas.
This is a problem that started with data, but escalates due to personal offense (which is taken, not given) even though the officers are doing what they're told. And you're saying that instead of taking an abusive officer as an idivudual we should judge all officers by their actions? You talk about this like every officer does it, and they are the majority.
I do see one problem: the slippery slope fallacy. Another problem is that it's their decision to ac
I never said it's okay for a cop to be abusive What did say is that if they're abusive then they are in the wrong, but if they stop someone based on data they are not. These things are not the same. I also said that the citizen accaused has no reason to despise all cops unless they think they're all the same, which would put both the cop and the person as being wrong.
I never said it's okay for a cop to be abusive What did say is that if they're abusive then they are
Being upset is not the same as acting on it, and the scrutiny is not the fault of the entire police force, but the data at hand and the individual that they ran into. You're approaching this like everyone is racist and every time someone is stopped they are the most dickish, monstrous officer doing it because they hate the person for their skin.
Being upset is not the same as acting on it, and the scrutiny is not the fault of the entire police
I'm with you on this one. Actual Oppression happens at the hands of Government, under Law. The closest thing we still have left are anti-drug laws which were mainly put in place for idiotic racist reasons. And even then, these laws hurt every single person no matter what they look like on the outside. They need to be done away with on a Federal level, completely and entirely.
There are absolutely cops who abuse their power throughout the US, for example, but they're acting on their own rather than based on laws or explicit instructions. They're abusing their position of authority, a problem that extends beyond racism. They're elevated above us common folk simply by being given a position of power, a term SJW's love to spew but always use incorrectly. Even if we could magically weed out all the racist cops, that doesn't solve the underlying problem that the position of power allows people to act on their desires and prejudices. We'd still have cops who shoot dogs, and molest women, and forcibly draw blood from perfectly sober people, and who throw flashbangs into infants cribs.
SJW's are missing the forest for the trees. It isn't just one group suffering from oppression, it's the common person -- everyone who isn't in a position of Governmental power -- who is subject to the whims of those in power. It's an uncoordinated system of infringements on Individual Rights, which is ostensibly worse than a unified Authoritarian attack on a specific group, because look at how divided everyone is. At least with a fascist regime or empire you can point at a leader and his chain of command who explicitly say "We want to kill/imprison/enslave all X's" and unite against that oppressive entity.
I'm with you on this one. Actual Oppression happens at the hands of Government, under Law. The close
I agree completely, save for one point! I do think that blacks have it harder more than over Weed, but what that leads to. Because of this and the higher rates at which blacks are incarcerated due to these circumstances they're stopped more often, are at a higher rate of being suspected of possession, and are accused more often. Now...I won't lie, out of every black and Hispanic person I've met three more smoke weed, and it's illegal, and it's stupid it's illegal because it doesn't harm anyone who's responsible for it. So the numbers may be accurate (from my perspective), but it's tackled so heavily that it's treated like murder! And that leads to needlessly serious pumishments.
As for the cops, agreed, there are many who abuse power and many more who do their job. People like to compare them on a group level, which is like saying if three hospitals had 6 terrible doctors they're all bad...and how many hospitals are there? But also there's the fact that the police protect each other and those who benefit them more than others, so there's a significant worry I have that the force is becoming a clique, people who only protect each other and see their job less as having a significant impact and more as another dayjob. Going past the officials of the force to actively Fire and punish the ones that actually do something heinous and serious needs to be acted, because they aren't going to do much to their own people.
I agree completely, save for one point! I do think that blacks have it harder more than over Weed, b
This guy didn't get duped to being a white nationalist. He chose it, realized he was wrong and chose something else. There is no creation. This individual could have easily refused to listen to those people. It's his fault. Not the fault of invisible manipulators. If he can't own up to his own stupidity he's failed as a person. Period.
There's no such thing as hidden manipulative evil people. You have to realize EVERYONE is inherently a terrible person.
This just gives sympathy to people you dislike as a way to rationalize behavior you don't understand. He chose to listen. Nothing will change that. The least he could do was admit he was just too dumb and didn't properly educate himself and form his own opinion.
This guy didn't get duped to being a white nationalist. He chose it, realized he was wrong and chose
I want you to understand that I don't think you're a bad person for thinking that? But you're wrong. Like, categorically wrong. How do I know?
Because I used to be one of those manipulators.
Granted, I didn't use it to further a political stance- I did it to psychologically torture people, because I'm a sadist. I purposefully picked out people who looked weak or unsure- usually socially isolated- probed them using qualifying questions, and essentially locked them into my abuse, using psychological tricks to make them too afraid to leave or seek help. And it worked. Over and over. Because while it's attractive to think you have ultimate control over yourself, that control only extends as far as your perception to understand the machinations others hold over you.
And the real kicker?
When they seemed to be wresting out from my control, even a little bit? If they sought another friend or authority figure? I'd tell them exactly what you said.
"I'm not forcing anybody. They're around me because they want to be. I don't have magic powers or anything."
And they'd side with me. Because that argument is so alluring.
And so, so wrong.
I want you to understand that I don't think you're a bad person for thinking that? But you're wrong.
Well, to start. I don't care if you think I'm a bad person or not, but at least the thought counts. I'm not saying manipulation isn't something that doesn't exist, in or within this self.
The problem is I've encountered this specific case and it's a common long drawn out explanation to rationalize political debates. If a person states a ideology you disagree with, another particular option for a person to do is try to rationalize these ideologies in a way that would feel convenient.
This may often lead to a false sense of superiority as well as an inability to question one's own bias. I.E.: I am 100% right and the only reason this person believes this is that they must have been manipulated to. Another example is, being 'misguided."
Well, to start. I don't care if you think I'm a bad person or not, but at least the thought counts.
Well I guess that's interesting? But it also has nothing to do with anything. This entire journal was made to point out how manipulative people can affect your worldview in subtle ways to make you more sympathetic to atrocious worldviews, like White Nationalism, which is not a respectable position or series of arguments.
Well I guess that's interesting? But it also has nothing to do with anything. This entire journal wa
Well, it's possible, but that is sort of also where some of my disbelief lies. White Nationalism is a pretty extreme ideology to be "manipulated into". You clearly have some personal issues you need to work out.
Also, I'm only pointing this out under the impression that someone would think "every right leaning argument" is the same as white nationalism. But, if we're talking specifically white nationalism, yes, that's pretty damn extreme.
Well, it's possible, but that is sort of also where some of my disbelief lies. White Nationalism is
That's the problem. There are a lot more people 'with issues' than you think. A lot more. Most of the people who get sucked into strong ideologies of any kind have a need for something to fill their lives. And more often than not, those are the people who take it too far.
That's the problem. There are a lot more people 'with issues' than you think. A lot more. Most of t
Wanted to Add why thinking this way can lead to problems:
Thinking, "They manipulate", leads to a person's inability to look into their arguments and debate them rationally and properly. By that course, I would have to unsubscribe to literally every political leaning channel ever so that I'm not susceptible to ideology brain magic . . ..EX.: I like Hbomberguy though, and I mostly disagree with him, but his arguments and details fascinate me and some of his points are sound. If I were to assume I was being manipulated by a "SJW", then I should not be watching his content. Note: Some people think this.
I watch him and Sargon of Akkad frequently. Both are hated by one group or another. Not for neutrality reasons, by the way, i just prefer to understand arguments I disagree with and make sound judgement.
And, I seen this before. I know friends who lean in either direction and they suck at arguing simply because they did not educate themselves on what their arguing for. Also leads to the creation of the "Strawman Argument".
I lost the time to edit my comment. Wanted to Add why thinking this way can lead to problems: Thin
