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Blackraven2

Do you respect the police?

Let's do something fun and make a political journal post ;)

As published by a study from the federal police university, in 2015 police officers

- fired on human subject 40 times
- 34 times of those was in self defense
- 4 times it was to prevent an imminent crime
- 2 times it was to stop a suspect fleeing the scene

as a result of this, nationwide 10 people were killed by police fire and a further 22 were injured.

on top of this 48 "warning shots" were fired (intimidation fire deliberately not aimed directly at the suspects)

all this at a population of 82.1 Million people and 310 000 police officers nationwide.

One police officer was killed on duty in 2015 - in a knife attack (1.2 per year on average since 2000)

That's the statistics for Germany, in case you were wondering.



In comparison, the United States have roughly one million police force and 321 million population.

That means, 20% less police compared to Germany, but in 2015 there were 990 people shot by police officers, and 58 officers were killed on duty (41 of which by gunfire, the rest was assaults, vehicular assaults and similar).

That means the United States policemen are 30 times! more lethal ( aka kill 30 times more people per policeman) than the German police.

At the same time the United States policemen are 16 times more likely to be killed on duty (not counting accidents)

The yearly homicide rate (numbers of homicides per 100000 people) in the United States is 3.9 versus 0.9 in Germany - 4 times as high, but nowhere near as imbalanced as the police figure/

What does this little study tell us?

In Germany you don't need to fear the police. Even if you are committing a crime, the police will try to avoid killing you if you leave them a choice. There are some complaints that police isn't always responding quick enough if there's need for them, but generally Germany is considered quite a safe place to be in this day and age.

The image of the United States policeman is much worse. "Trigger happy" and "Shoot first, ask later" are some attributes often heard in respect to the US police force, along with allegations of corruption and racism - up to and including racial targeted killings by police men.

The statistics back up this image. Both of the police men as trigger happy killers as well as criminals disrespecting the law enforcing officers - and legal system - in such a way that they rather kill policemen than let themselves get arrested.

So what went wrong?

One thing is police force strength. The police in Germany is constantly complaining about being understaffed. So if the United States have one fifth less police, and at the same time a much higher crime rate, it's clear that the country is not giving enough resources to its law enforcement.

Or does it?

In the United States the Incarceration Rate (Number of people in Prison per 100000 citizens) is at an astonishing 698, (versus 78 for Germany) That means for around every 150 people, one is in jail.
(In Germany only one in 1300 people is in jail)  That's 2.2 million people in United States jails in total!

A person in jail costs the state around $30000 per year. A police officer on average earns around $80000 a year.

That means for the cost of having ten times the incarceration rate (2 million times 30000$) you could save 60 billion dollars every year, or instead hire an additional 700000 police officers. That would be 40% more than Germany instead of 20% less. Or instead you could opt for the same force strength but give them better training and equipment.

The problem in my opinion is that the United States legal system focuses on *punishment* of the criminal. If someone did bad, he must endure bad in turn in equal amount - resulting in unreasonably long jail terms and high incarceration rates. Jails are called "correction facilities" but effectively people are sent there to rot away so no one has to deal with them - for as long as possible. No "correction" takes place, in fact usually criminals get "hardened" in jail and come back way worse than before, especially for first offenders.

The German legal system is focused on crime prevention as well as reintegration of criminals into society - aka "fixing the problems instead of hiding them away" as a result the sentences are a lot less than in the states. There is no death penalty, but also no "accumulation of sentences" that could result in hundreds of years of jail time - if you committed crimes, you are sentenced based on the overall severity, which is usually dominated by the worst crime you committed.
That doesn't always work, ex-convicts have a hard time reintegrating here, too, and there's a percentage of repeat offenders - but its a lot lower than in the US.

All in all, it's a different paradigm.

If your goal is a safe society, respected police and reasonable expenses for law enforcement, it's pretty clear to me, which paradigm is superior.

The united states police man sees it as his duty to "stop criminals". Instead he should see it as his primary duty to "stop citizens from becoming criminals."  For that it would require a fundamental reform of not only the police, but also the legal system backing them up.

If a petty thief or a drug dealer has to expect being sentenced to 300 years in prison, its kinda understandable that he'd rather kill a police officer or be killed in the attempt, than be captured.

And if police force were adequately trained, equipped and supervised, you wouldn't end up with racist killers among them thinking they were doing society a favor.
Viewed: 57 times
Added: 7 years, 6 months ago
 
Furlips
7 years, 6 months ago
Well, yes.

Bunners
CuriousFerret
7 years, 6 months ago
I shared your journal link, with luck it'll draw some constructive conversation.

I respect our civil servants, but there is much that needs adressing training wise and proper support.
Blackraven2
7 years, 5 months ago
thanks, I think it was worth it :)
Mole
7 years, 6 months ago
In the united states.. I don't respect the police.  I'm not going to attack police officer or openly disrespect them.... but but I have 0% trust in them.  And I don't believe all cops are bad... but i might run into that one who might end up killing me over something stupid... because he thought me an unarmed person might have a gun because i reach into my pocket for my ID

Comparing the the US to any other country.. it's obvious we have fundamental problems.

I think we do need a change.. and start taking queues from other countries that have less police brutality issues.  

The reason why we have our current BLM issue is.. because our law enforcement and legal system is BROKEN...  And a good number of people are in denial of it.  There are so many examples of unjust killings of people.. that of course there are people in the street close to rioting

A rational reaction for the authority is to look at their own policy and make corrections.. like how a few cities in the states have... but the normal reaction is to sweep it under the rug and let it disappear...  And this is something that has been happening for decades... it's just being brought up again because everyone has a camera and we can see it with our own eyes

Change needs to happen.. but much like segregation.. ti's extremely long and hard... and more than likely it's going to take the court and a few people in power to make the change... instead of the American people agreeing.. that maybe we should be more sane like Germany or Canada.  When it came to segregation.. it took almost a hundred years for the court to declare it unconstitutional... because there were obvious difference between white and black schools.  And when segregation ended.. did we all come together .. no, in some places the president had to deploy the army and tanks to protect black students to make sure they go into those white only school.
Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
That opens another can of worms. With the need of change identified, where and how can you cause change in a political system where most participants are mostly focused on their own gain and remaining in power.

There are people protesting against the police brutality and racism, but I think most of them have not identified the underlying cause of the problem. The politicians just want to get rid of the protests as easy and with as little costs as possible. I can see chief-of-police being swapped in some cities, and maybe even some pawn being relieved of office to have a scapegoat. But significantly more funding for the police force nationwide? The paradigm shift in the legal system? That's not even on the list of anyone's demands yet I think.

What politicians are going to do is give the majority of the protesters something to be happy about, like the scapegoat. Then in a whip-and-honey approach, they'll also arrest those who keep protesting too long and too loud. And as a last action they'll all claim that they have some solution on their agenda for the year 2020+ if they are reelected - without going into detail.
The effective change - nothing at all, until the whole thing flares up again.

The legal system has grown over centuries, based on religious ideals that have very old-testament-ish roots - an eye for an eye and such. Who does wrong must be punished in a way that equals the wrong, so the population will be satisfied that justice has been served. This dates back to the age of the wild west and lynch mobs, sheriffs and bad boys with revolvers. An age where anyone who had a reason to avoid the authorities in the old world came to the new in hope for a better life. Be it because they were oppressed for expressing their religious ideas, be it because they were criminals, or just entrepreneurs hoping for a big profit. Hard men that needed a hard and harsh law to deal with them and keep a nation under control that had wide spaces to hide and unlimited opportunities. You needed to lock the criminals behind bars or kill them because otherwise they'd just travel to the next state and do their deeds there. These criminals had already traveled across the Atlantic ocean to avoid the law. They got a new chance in the new world, but if they messed it up, there was only one solution.

One more reason, law enforcement had to appease the equally hard men who were trying hard to stay lawful. If it didn't, you'd end up these people taking justice in their own hands, and theres little that's more disillusioning about the power of a federal state than a lynchmob.

This line of thoughts is still strong even nowadays, libertarian factions often voice their disdain that there is a police force at all, that not every man and woman with a gun is free to take the law (or what they want to be the law) into their own hands.

But the united states is no longer a sparsely settled open land full of outlaws. It's a modern society with a large social gap, and the risk to come in conflict with the law is high as anywhere at the heel-end of the social-class-war. Not because they are born criminals, or criminals entered the country with the intend to exploit its weakness, but because they seek to correct some of the unfairness that leaves them without a chance.

(The American dream: Start as a dish washer - become a millionaire. But what do you do if dishes are washed by machines and no one is hiring you if you don't have work experience or a degree? Answer: Sell drugs. The American dream reloaded for people with colored skin: from the dealer to the drug lord)

You end up with a whole generation of disillusioned youngsters with a high risk of becoming criminal.
But instead of facing social programs to aid these hotspots, they face a legal system that was invented to deal with notorious gangsters like Billy the kid and his ilk.
Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
That's what fills the prisons. That's what makes kids that know no better fear the police as the guys who will bring them behind bars to be gang raped for the rest of their lives by older kids who have nothing better to do than try to be the big fish among the inmate parallel society, because they aren't getting out any time soon and even if they were they would not be facing any perspective for the better.

The police? In that scheme they have a hopeless mission. They need to enforce a law that's in part the cause of the problem. No wonder they are hated. No wonder they are being fought against and shot at.

But they make it worse by retaliating against everyone who has the wrong skin color.

To change this, one would have to give those 2 million kids in the prisons a perspective. Show them that they do have a chance in society. That the society wants them to have a chance.

Give them jobs, give them reintegration programs, give them education in jail, so they have a degree when they come back.
Reduce the sentences so these people have a life to live when they get out beyond getting drunk, stoned or doing something illegal.

If this generation has the feeling that the laws are supposed to make things better instead of punish those who are already at a disadvantage. Then they might start to respect the law. If they start to respect the law they might start to respect those who must enforce it.

And then something could be gained by also "fixing" the police force itself. More staff, better training, a "de-escalating" strategy on the street, shooting as a very last resort. And getting rid of the racist ideology among the ranks.

Right now it looks like the legal system is a cart with a broken wheel. Now the horse in front of it - the police force - collapsed in spasms, and people are discussing about replacing the horse - maybe with a stronger one --- won't help much without fixing the waggon ;)

But I don't think the US society has realized that the waggon is broken in the first place. Not even those who are protesting against police brutality.
Mole
7 years, 6 months ago
We both agree that the law system is broken... but I'm not willing to let law enforcement pass as an unwilling participant in this issue.  Yes, some people are treated as scapegoat as a distraction of a bigger problem... in a few cases, there aren't even scapegoats except for the victims.

Ignoring the social economic issues and why black people have a tendency of going to jail... there are instances where officers are above the law and there is no accountability.  With the example of Eric Garner.. who was choke by an officer while not resisting.  He died and their family received a lot of money.  The obvious answer is to throw the choker under the bus and just ignore the bigger issue.. but citizens don't even get that.  

With the idea that law enforcement involves protecting the people... it's becoming obvious the mission takes aback seat for them protecting themselves.  

I believe our legal system should change... but at the moment the bigger issue is the obvious corruption with the police.  It's not a generation that need to learn how to respect the law..  But a generation being shown that people who try to follow the law can still die.  

It is extremely hard to start a conversation towards a bigger vision of a society that respect the law... when it's obvious that state violence get protected by the law.  We're passed the point that the police might bring you to jail.. we're at the point that the police might not even bother and kill you.

It should be obvious we hold officers at a higher standard.. but in the states.. we hold them to a lower standard.
Mole
7 years, 6 months ago
i'll talk more later, at work and finishing up
Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
Take your time :-) I'm likely going to sleep soon, different time zone and such .

I agree, the level of "getting away with it" because the legal system protects police officers and colleagues and superiors protect corrupt ones is completely unsustainable.

Especially with the libertarian and vigliante friendly ideology around it wont take many cases of "killer cops getting away with it" until you end up with an angry mob taking justice into their own hands.

There already have been retaliation killings of random unrelated officers. So far they have been condemned. But if the law fails to treat police officers who murder innocents the same way it treats other killers, if murderers end up scot free without even a charge or trial, then you have a desaster waiting to happen and rightfully so.

Policemen who do bad things exist. There are always racist killers, some of them will be among the police force. But theres no excuse at all for not correcting this but actually protecting these individuals, nor for encouraging that behaviour in the ranks.

And theres consequences. The angry mob that demands harsh punishments I talked about? Its gonna be on the street and demand blood. And no FBI, national guard or martial law's gonna save them anymore, that would only cause more bloodshed on both sides.

Theres an easy way out though. Politicians will have to respond, and all they will have to do is set an example on the next officer who is unlucky enough to get filmed while killing someone unarmed on duty.

Thats what I expect to happen. Or a small civil war if not ;)

Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
Looks like things are happening faster than anticipated. I'm only reading the German news, but apparently there has been protests in Charlotte again despite curfew and national guard presence and at least one person killed.
On the other hand there might be a scapegoat now. In Tulsa a police-woman has now been charged with manslaughter and imprisoned after shooting a cooperative suspect. Might be too little too late. People are angry and at this point any news related to the topic might fuel the fire.
Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
Forgot to actually write what I originally wanted to say over all that backstory ;)

You'd need a grassroots movement with lots of media (or new media) attention demanding a change in the punishing law towards a preventive/reintegrating law.

If enough people demanded that, politicians would maybe respond. There have been cases in the past. The main issue I see is getting enough people to see that as a necessity in the first place.

From what I have heard from people who went to the US as exchange students, this punishing ideology seems to be deeply rooted in American society starting with schools enforce harsh and embarrassing "public" punitive actions against rule offenders as the main corrective action for anything. Cafeteria duty for using swear words, complete with a sign saying why the student is sentenced to do this. Cleaning the yard during break time so everyone sees.
This is different from Germany, where punishments are usually focused on improving the offenders behavior, not setting a public example. The traditional punishment for rule offenses is extra homework assignments, or sometimes assignments after hours under supervision by the teacher. The offender spends time at school instead of having free-time, but in turn has the opportunity to learn more. (Usually the repeat offenders are the ones who need to improve their grades anyway, so that's a good idea) Helping the school caretaker after hours with maintenance work was also a common "punishment" but aside from the forced nature of the thing, there was nothing inherently bad about this task. No public humiliation. Correction, yes, Punishment... not a lot.

The legal system, if the offenses become more severe, is also extremely forgiving with first offenders and young criminals. Criminals are often assigned to social workers as unpaid helpers, to improve the situation in the very neighborhood that led them astray. If they didn't show up or didn't do the work, they could still be jailed, but the opportunity to do something good instead is always there.

Even young adults - until age 22 ish maybe are usually still sentenced according to youth criminal law - depending on social background and history and also development of the offender. This of course changes for older ppl and of course repeat offenders. But even there, common prison terms are just long enough to have the suspect learn his lesson. The latter half of the sentence is often carried out in reintegration measures. Education, "open prison" where the inmate is living on conditions more akin to someone on parole. And drastically shortened prison terms if the inmate has a promising outlook.

But for a change to that, people would have to stop believing that "punishment is fair" the same way they had to stop believing that "black people are inferior".

People that have been educated that there must be punishment or there would be no justice, need to unlearn that.  Ironically, religion could in theory help there. After all a certain Jesus of Nazareth preached forgiveness and this "presenting the other cheek" thingy or "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" and stuff like that.

That in a country where still over 50% of the population support death penalty.

I'm not saying its impossible, but it's not going to be easy.


One would have to sway public opinion what "justice" means from "people who do bad deeds need to be punished" towards "people who do bad deeds need to be educated better so they do good deeds instead"
Mole
7 years, 6 months ago
I'm just now getting to this.. I agree with most of what you say... it would require a change.  But it's very hard to influence people to agree with change.  As a country, we're trapped in our own bubble and accept it as a way of life..

In a lot of ways... when it comes to law enforcement.. technically if we were
Arikado
7 years, 6 months ago
I would like to visit the US, but seeing all those news dosen't make me respect the police, it scares me!
What's worse is that don't have to fear much, because I'm white.
I'd rather stay in germany and make vacation in a small village in france.
Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
The other advantage is, to visit France from Germany, you don't have to apply for permits, give your fingernails like a criminal or fill out questionnaires for the immigration office - you just go there :)
It's also a lot closer, quicker and cheaper to travel :)

The only disadvantage I see is, they only speak French *chuckle*


Now an interesting question would be how the French people see their police. In the country, in the city, or in the banlieus. As far as I see it, France - in parts - faces comparable social problems like the United States, but with less trigger-happiness or mortality on both sides. There were big riots after this young guy died in the transformer station trying to hide from the police a few years ago.

Anyone from France here?
Arikado
7 years, 6 months ago
" give your fingernails like a criminal

Not my precious fingernails! XD
Yeah, they don't speak german or english. Okay, one time in an amusement park there was a woman from germany working there.
Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
Lol, fingerprints, I meant.  Then again with US immigration you never know. That hasn't been without precedent after all.

You don't expect the spanish inquisition ;)
Arikado
7 years, 6 months ago
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition.
SilentHunter
7 years, 6 months ago
I wish I could move to Germany, it sounds nice.
emikochan
7 years, 6 months ago
I'm from the uk so i do trust the police, they're not hard enough over here haha. I see criminals getting away with stuff often.
Blackraven2
7 years, 6 months ago
Heh, good point, the UK is another interesting story :)
Good old Scotland Yard is still world famous for good old school police work, but I guess whoever had the grand idea to replace patrolling bobbies with inhuman camera surveillance in the '90s still has to learn the hard way that cameras can not protect you. You might scream for help but all they do is dutifully record it on file. And it's not always the good guys accessing those files either.
emikochan
7 years, 6 months ago
yeah sadly the police are completely under-funded here. There are no files to access, 90% of them don't work and the 10% that do are too unclear to capture anything useful.
Blackraven2
7 years, 5 months ago
Doesn't surprise me at all. It's been more than ten years since they started operation "big brother" - Now the shiny new gadgets that were all the rage in the early 2000s are outdated, insecure, worn and broken. And updating or replacing them regularly would cost all that money that they hoped to save with all the nifty tech.

Are there any public statistics about police expenditure, personel count, number of CCTV installations and crime rates in the UK that you could link?
emikochan
7 years, 5 months ago
I don't know much outside of anecdote, but all the public services have been constantly being defunded since the recession. in some cases losing 99% of their funding according to my friend that works at the council.
Stumpycoon
7 years, 6 months ago
Good points, and thanks for running the numbers.
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