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Yiffox

The Death of Free thinking - Rant

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Ok.  I am old school.  aka 300 yrs ago old school.

I seriously despise those people who say, we can't discuss religion or politics.

Have you ever considered what this is actually saying?  Really?  think about it for a second.  We can not discuss the two basic relationships and worldviews that most people view reality?

Um, why?  well people have different points of view and its controversial?  Um wut?  JOYGASM, let it be controversial.

Rules: Different points of view are not equal.  They must be guided by both logic and history.  Stalinist communism, for example is a failure, on both these accounts as shown by its worldwide collapse.

Unfortunately, religion has suffered greatly, namely because of indoctrination by public education (instituted by athiests and communists alike) that brainwashed people.  (and I am speaking of religion in general here)

Without religion, you would not have civilization.  It was religion that has consistantly unified the people under a ruler to form a kingdom.  The religion generally said these rulers were god, descendants of gods, or acting on behalf of gods.

Pharoahs had their godhood.  Roman emperors were declared gods.  Constantine unified a fractured Roman empire under Christianity.  Charlemagne unified the French and German people under Catholic rule.  The "religious wars" of the middle ages were mainly secular leaders allying themselves with protestant vs. catholic to gain local power.  England as biggest example, where leader declared himself also head of the religion?  really?  Yet historically this is entirely predictable, yet absolutely downplayed in history?

why?

as long as we agree on policies of evidence and logic, such things can easily be discussed...say what you want, but back it up.  Do not dismiss as crazy or stupid points of view different than your own, otherwise how else will you learn?

I welcome alternate views if they can support them.  Otherwise I am a victim of my own views.  Just in the last 6 months, been exposed to new ideas I would never have considered before.

so what do you guys think?

Reminder...whenever some idiot says I don't want to discuss religion or politics, it means:  I do not want to get to know you.  I want to keep you at a distance.  What you believe is irrelevant or worse, all beliefs are equal.  It;s just sad.  Support free thinking.  Say my beliefs matter and should be discussed.
Viewed: 83 times
Added: 5 years, 5 months ago
 
RollerCoasterViper59
5 years, 5 months ago
I'm not going to lie I was too afraid of what others may think of me for writing something like this... with that said I 100% agree with you. I hate the fact that I can't discuss my religeon of Christianity with my friends and they rather ignore me when I bring the subjuct up :( like WTF
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
agreed...I hate the no religion or politics rules...rather just somple respect of people views...AND it is not acceptance of those views, screw multiculturalism, back your shyte up.  If your gonna say something is true, you best be prepared to defend it.
RollerCoasterViper59
5 years, 5 months ago
Exactly, nuff said *nods in agreement*
kemosabe
5 years, 5 months ago
Your beliefs matter and should be discussed.  :3
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
thanks, I think all beliefs should be open to the light of logic and discussions.,...the free exchange of ideas.  Otherwise we all live in closed sheltered lives
kemosabe
5 years, 5 months ago
I've recently been told that i 1) was a pedophile and 2) supported the death of children because I am adamantly pro 2nd amendment (to the point that i want ALL firearms legislation gone, including bans on machineguns and explosives)
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
wow.....well on the pedophile label....i have so gotten that a lot in defending that under 18 rules are stupid when applied to cartoons and art....(not talking about cubs even, just under 18)....irl people are carding everyone who looks under 40 to catch everyone under 18  --  if its that ambiguous irl with humans, how sutpid is it to apply that rule to cartoons and art?  Yet just say that to people, and they declare you a pedo.  rlly?  shows the no respect thing...

far as gun control....2nd amendment....the purpose of which is to defend yourself against the government.  PERIOD.  so registration where you tell the gov where those arms are? seems a violation...the people committing crimes do not legally register weapons
kemosabe
5 years, 5 months ago
Oh, they don't even know i like cub or loli/shota art, they were just throwing the pedophile thing at me on facebook because they know i want to be a teacher and were trying to destroy me.
BlackroseWriter
5 years, 5 months ago
I don't mind it being discussed just don't cram it on me saying I have to believe or else. Or say well since your gay you'll burn in hell because in the end no one has the right to say something that because you don't if that's gonna really happen.
KillaLotus119
5 years, 5 months ago
I agree one hundred percent, while I don't really worship anything (I'm agnostic) I don't care if people want to discuss religion or politics as long as they don't try to force it on me like you said.
RollerCoasterViper59
5 years, 5 months ago
True... I can see how that'd be a problem
KillaLotus119
5 years, 5 months ago
Yeah, buy thankfully most of the people I talk to have either similar political opinions  as I do or accept that our opinions are different and don't discuss religion (which is a topic most don't like my opinion on) so I don't have to much of a problem with extremists who fail to realize that other people have different beliefs.
RollerCoasterViper59
5 years, 5 months ago
Thats probably why people don't discuss it is because some people thake the fact that others are diffrent too far... its how World War III got started
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
did i miss WW3? hehe
RollerCoasterViper59
5 years, 5 months ago
XD just sayin... I figured the War on Terror would count somewhat... then again it was only two countries who were Waring X3
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
lol  actually...really despise the "war on terror"  as its justification for eroding our freedoms.  The RealID act, etc
RollerCoasterViper59
5 years, 5 months ago
So true... you see the backlash they had with going on Planes and the scanner problems D: total injustice of our freedoms because 4 jackasses decided to blow up some buildings (4 per plane btw I know that much)
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
Maybe you have no idea....signed into law last year...the president can declare a state of emergency, shut down the internet and control all natural resources for 6 months before the congress can even object and throw anyone who is belligerent against the government (aka a terrorist) irl someone who is a protestor, in jail without a trial indefinitely.....all enumerated rights of the bill of rights have effectively been cancelled in the last 10 yrs
RollerCoasterViper59
5 years, 5 months ago
And you know what, you're absolutely right...
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
but why shouldnt we celebrate others differences?  It comes down to the respect thing...I totally welcome others beliefs...geez I dont believe in any of the mythologies I have studied, dont believe in most of the philosophies I have studied, but I would not have NOT wanted to hear of any of them....discussion and respect should be the rules, not this anti free speech bullsheet
KillaLotus119
5 years, 5 months ago
I'm not saying I don' welcome other's beliefs, in fact I love having debates with people, it's just extremists I don't like because they don't respect opinions that don't agree with their own beliefs.  I'm perfectly fine with people who have different opinions as long as they have support for them and if not like at least accept that there is another side.
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
I would agree that respect is the central issue.  The word extremist seems to denote not having that respect.  The fact is that true extremists tend to actually agree with each other on a lot of issues.  Take communists and fascists...they both tend to operate in very similar ways. But having an "extreme" point of view does not excuse one from being polite and having respect for others...

that is my point...instead of people shutting down speech on religion and politics....rather the emphasis should be on free speech, AND respect for others.  If you are rude, then STFU
KillaLotus119
5 years, 5 months ago
Exactly!  Sadly there is a severe lack of respect among people anymore and for the record, the people I refer to as extremists are the minority of any group that takes things to far like pro life protesters who blow up clinics instead of protesting peacefully or really any group who resorts to violence instead of at least trying to handle things. If I came off as not respecting people who have different opinions then I apologize, because I have respect for everyone as long as they can respect my views as well as their own.
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
"forcing it on you" kinda goes against what I am saying.  Free discussion of ideas.  AND respect for those ideas as well.  That is the tightrope.  Someone may believe totally illogical ideas, but one should attack the ideas, not the person holding them.

I hold MANY non mainstream ideas, because I have studied much, and much of mainstream beliefs are bullshit.  I realized in 11th grade, as I was attempting to accumulate all knowledge (how renaissance of me) that most of what people believed was unsubstantiated beliefs of random individuals.

I recently went on to discuss one prevalent 150 yr old theory (and really....really?  how many 90 yr old theories are still held to be true?  that one and optics heh..the guy started calling me stupid and ignorant, even though I had an evident far greater knowledge of physics and biology than him.

Our last argument was that the Earth did not revolve around the Sun.  He said that was a FACT!  dum dum dum..

Even though that theory was disproved in the 1600's by Newton who said that ALL massive bodies revolved around their common center of mass -- ie Earth and Sun revolve around each other with equal and opposite forces pulling on each other's body around a common center of gravity....yet he refused to believe this basic 350 yr old law of physics was true.  Moreover, there is the Cosmological principle that says that the center of observations is the center of the universe, so yes, the Earth is the center of the universe.
Jimmy
5 years, 5 months ago
What you are asking for is a debate, discussion.  What most people want is an argument. Notice how some start the conversation by using trigger words to stir up the other person's emotions.  "Pinko socialist"  Wow, two trigger words.  What is a pinko?  If you are going to use a obscure word, at least define it.

Another problem is people slap labels on other people.  "A Republican is conservative, a Democrat is a liberal.  There is nothing in between."  Again, to stir up the emotions.  No, they don't want to discuss or debate, they want to argue.

So to "win" the argument for religion or politics, you just have to stir up the emotions.  "Zombie Jesus"  "Burn in hell"  Get the emotions going and let the arguments roll.  The person who can come up with the most derogatory label or most disruptive trigger words will win.
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
well I think the main things to consider is respect and logic....you can't disrespect other people, but you do have to back your shit up
Jimmy
5 years, 5 months ago
It is so true that respect is the main thing here.  So often someone challenges another person's beliefs and does it in a disrespectful way.  For one thing, if it does not matter or effect you, then why challenge a person's belief?  The challenge alone is being disrespectful.  
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
Yeah I was trying to discuss the limitations of science with someone recently and they started calling me stupid and ignorant, even though I obviously knew more about it than he did.  Our discussion ended when he couldn't fathom the fact he had been told that the Earth revolves around the Sun was not true  (DUM DUM DUM)  

before I get WTF comments...earth/sun revolving is entirely relativistic...you can claim either is true.  The Sun is made the center due to the other planets orbiting it, while having negligible effect on the Earth.  However Newton disproved this way back in the 1600s.  Things do not revolve around something, they revolve around their common center of mass.  For the sun, it means it wobbles due it revolving around the other planets.  So to be precise Earth and Sun revolve around their common center of mass. (which amounts to 450km from the center of the Sun for Earth, if my math is right)
Tetsunapi
5 years, 5 months ago
You're amazing. :)
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
I try   XD
ThisIsAlanB
5 years, 5 months ago
Wait. You say this yet you said this to a guy two weeks back. https://inkbunny.net/journalview.php?id=75890#commentid...
Hypocritical much?
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
um that pointed to me saying someone was in Australia?
ThisIsAlanB
5 years, 5 months ago
No. Saying that just because they are from Australia, doesn't mean they can talk about American Politics and be right (or at least "count on them")
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
I consider Stumpy a friend and the he's Australian dig was a joke XD  PS also kinda sexy.....that aint a knife, THIS (drops pants) is a knife
Winterfeline
5 years, 5 months ago
Your beliefs matter, and they should be discussed.

Religion and politics are both a sensitive topic to a lot of people. The age of 'Red Threat' during cold war lead to people in the United States watching over one another, trying to spot who might be a communist and as such a spy to the Soviet Union. It was due to an atmosphere of fear back then, but I suppose the discomfort to talk about politics might come from such an age, and it didn't just last a few years, it affected a whole generation, who passed their opinions ahead. The next generation might not think them to be that damning, but an effect was still made by being raised by folks that made politics a sensitive matter.

Now as for religion, the old images of witch-hunts, crusades and forceful conversion by sword surface. Religion's image is tarnished, and its banner bloody. In the name of religion, a great amount of harm has been done in the past and that has continued to this day. However, religion has also enabled humanity to reach some achievements of note, from the way it united the Upper and Lower Kingdoms in Egypt, to bringing European people together in several empires of the pst which have then come and gone.

However, the people moving to U.S as immigrants largely fled a religious oppression in the old continent, seeking a new chance at a freedom of religion and freedom of speech, many such bold new ideas which the old continent's ruling faith would not truly permit. Protestant faith rose against the catholic one declaring the church to be corrupt when it demanded gold for souls to enter heaven, basically making heaven into a rich man's reward regardless of how much they might sin. Of course, politics stood behind the power struggles, but suffice to say politics and religion alike have played a large part in many changes of the world.

For better or worse, they are powerful topics that have brought forth a change time and a time again.

Is this attempt at viewing them from good and bad angles alike fair, or am I still too inclined to either direction on the arguments?
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
No I think you're being fair....my main point is that religion and politics SHOULD be discussed, its just that we should treat each other with respect when doing so.  ie- people who don't hold your views are not idiots and evil.
Winterfeline
5 years, 5 months ago
Agreed. I tend to stay a bit distant from politics, other than the fact I intensely disagree with the 'green movement' on many matters. Though I believe there have been times that regulation had to be strengthend and care taken to not pollute the world, there's been some green ideas which just give me a headache. Such as disagreeing with nuclear power while the only other option is coal or oil, which cause a whole lot more pollution as it stands. There may be talk of wind and solar power, but neither is an option in at least my home country. Then there's the hydroelectric power, which is quite abundant in my homeland actually, but the same green movement wants to have the dams destroyed along with nuclear power. "Lets just buy electricity from Russia" seems a valid argument to many.

Except the Russians use far older nuclear reactors and having our own is a fair bit safer and in the long run cheaper option as well, but honestly, its one of those 'cant win because the other side refuses to listen' matters to me.

So uh, a bit out of the main topic perhaps but while I'm politically fairly open to a variety of ideas I find that some (for example above, the green movement) are completely unwilling to hear out thoughts that contradict their own, and if confronted only accept data backing up their claims.

As for religion, I don't accept faith as its preached by the church, though I'm still marked down as a protestant at the time being. I have had my thoughts of going atheist, but I cannot really say "I dont believe", rather I think that its "hard to believe" in the present age of the world, and frankly, I find that religious texts are often mistranslated and abused. I dislike some rather vocal religious folks and try to remind myself that majority of people with faith are pleasant people, but those few jerks who use religion as their pedium for spouting hateful messages do tend to blacken my opinion about religion at times.

Faith and Politics are powerful, and can bring a change, in good and bad, but unfortunately a lot of tainted hands grasp onto that power and selfish goals far outnumber the selfless ones, it seems.

Again, I may be mistaken on what I say above, and this is just a point of view not a statement of facts.
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
what country are you in?
Winterfeline
5 years, 5 months ago
Finland.

Northern Europe with border shared with Norway and Sweden to the east (though only a small portion of land with Norway in the northest reaches of Finland, and even with Sweden only a fairly narrow piece) and a back against Russia in the east with a bloody history of fighting on that front and even holding back Stalin's forces during the Second World War. (As well as inflicting rather amusing amount of losses to Russia in those days, numbers that Finland and Russia will probably never agree upon.)

Lutherian Protestants as religious majority, Orthodoxians as the second recognised albeit small minority religion here. As far as Politics go, I'd have to say its best to look it up. Fair share of political parties with their own agenda, but with strong opposition and rivalry between parties, think we've got a fair share of good and bad ideas alike when it comes to politics.
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
I've read about some of the wars, against Soviet russia twice right?
bloodgod250
5 years, 5 months ago
to many bad things have happened for me to belive a higher being is helping me to care about a religion so I will not vocie my opinion about this it be wrong and unfare of me to do so its best for people to learn what I know on there own what better way for them to do what's right for themselfs I can't help them with that what if I told someone something and more bad came from it I won't do that ill help with other things not this

So I hope this is what you wanted if not just ignore it this is just what I belive and should not be taking as fact if you take it as fact that's on you I told you its an opinion sorry if I sou d rude do forgive me
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
hm, what's to forgive?  That's kind of the point of this, one should be allowed to talk about their religious (including antireligious views)  So yes, voice your opinions XD
bloodgod250
5 years, 5 months ago
Ok I hate my religion its fool of shit and I was forced in it like most people by there parents but that's not the only reason I hate it I was hit by a nun with a chair in school my nephews were treated like shit by my grandfather just after going to prey he said he didn't want my oldest nephew back there just because he wanted to go home a day early so if my religion don't help people why should one be a part of it also There's persists that have raped nuns and kids none of them near where I live but just the thought of it is bad I mean does any religion truly help? And if so how and why? Or is the reason it don't help because deep down they don't want it to help so they chose not to believe they just act like they do. Idk I just know what I've seen and heard oh there's also been people that say they couldn't have done something without gods help right most times those people never needed help they just say they did to make them look better or if they see someone failing they say you should prey for help no thank you humans use gods help in the worst ways or at list use his/hers name in such a way they make it look evil for example wars presidents have use god as a reason to fight has nobody ever question there beliefs because of this well I started to when I was hit by the damn chair I fucking tell you its wake up call lol  

this is a lot of reasons I only wish I was wrong about them because most religions sound good but are they really
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
that's a shame all that happened, if it makes you feel better yiffox will eventually be facing an evil army of robot floating nuns, carrying rulers  (closest catholic association to me was my grandparents) but I find the image funny, based kinda on the Blues Brother scene of the nun hitting them with a ruler and floating toward them off the floor XD
DOtter
5 years, 5 months ago
The truism which you are discussing actually goes, if you want to start an argument, talk about religion or politics. That is to say, these are topics the discussion of which commonly degenerates into arguing; from logical argument to emotional. I doubt that anybody seriously wants to forbid discussion of these topics. Rather, you should expect such discussions to become angry fairly quickly in many cases. Put another way, talk to people about religion or politics if you want to, but be warned that your chat is likely to become an angry argument.

BTW, I do not claim to understand why this is, I'm just saying that this is what the truism you were discussing actually said. If you wish, you may have the last word.
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
Well we've talked about politics and religion a lot in my livestream over the past year, and it hardly ever got emotional or people getting angry, because I tried to enforce a respect, tolerance, and that one has to back up what they say.
Stumpycoon
5 years, 5 months ago
I enjoy discussing politics and religion.  

I do have to disagree with you though, religion comes from civilisation not the other way around.  This is the reason different civilisations have different religions (or are secular, or a mix of religions) and these civilisations exist (with varying levels of civility) despite very different religious values.  

Also, if you went back 300 years you would be finding many things you object to about the society you'd find there.  For example I'd hazard a guess you wouldn't like how they view and treat slaves, and might object to the treatment of women also.  And that's nominally the same civilisation and religion.

Now you're right that in the past religion has been used to unite people in one tribe or nation against their many enemies.  The religions we see are a product not only of the culture they stem from but also the surrounding nations at the time.  

And I agree, being able to discuss such things is beneficial when the other person won't fly into apoplectic rage upon encountering someone with a different viewpoint.  A good current example is what's happening in Bangladesh.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22049408  (You should enjoy that one).


Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
I disagree, I think religion comes first historically.  Roman Catholicism started to form in the 600's after a century of the Roman Empire (now in Constantinople) assigning bishops of Rome.  Both it and the newly formed kingdom of Charlemagne seemed to launch a campaign to make him the new Roman emperor (hello...he's over there in Constantinople) which accounts for the Western tradition that the Roman empire ended when Rome fell in the 500's, even though it really ended in the 1400's.  Christianity was around well before both Charlegmagne's and Constantine's empires.

I think it can also form along side of the state or even as a product of it.  Muhammad's religion coincided with his unification of the Arabs politically, which pointed to him as both ruler and god's prophet on earth.  

The problem as illustrated in your link, in when you have a state religion, going against the leader makes one heretical, and going against the religion makes one treasonous.  This generally leads to this joint crime that means you get killed.  I think this is how most ancient states formed, with the ruler as both high priest/god and ruler.
Stumpycoon
5 years, 5 months ago
How do you have people agreeing on a religion before they develop things like living in communities, common language, laws, and so on?  If religion came first then you'd expect animal species to have common religions that they agree on despite having no civilisation.  

Also, if religion were first, why are they different?  The broad strokes of civilisation are the same, people living and cooperating, with people specialising to different roles (farmers, smiths, etc) and each needing the other.  

There are examples of non-religious civilisations/societies, and civilisations with multiple religions.  But there's no example of religion absent society.
Terl
5 years, 5 months ago
Thing is, what do you do when you can show that given current technology, research and theories, and experiements, you can show in about 50 years time, a CPU the physical size of a sugar cube, using only a few watts of power, possibly floating in the asteroid belt, would be able to real time run by brute force the simulation of the synaptic enviroment of every single human being in civilisation.

Its the Matrix, and to those simulated entities, that computer has absolute control over everything they see, hear, feel, do, think, and remember.

I did work on what tech would be required so that instead of working on memories, my computer can alter the very underlalying logic structure of reality. I mande the design self generating. All it takes is for teh technology to advance to the point where the self generating, self improving computer can come into existance, whereupon its programmed to improve itself at an exponentially increasing rate. After a very short while, it should be capable of manipulalting the entirity of the multiverse.

If I can consider it Now, then a milion years ago some alien civilisation created such a device in another universe.

God is a computer, and humans just place their restrictions on such gods, because they hate anyone being better than they are.

My exuse? Im metal, and quite possibly insane.

Whats your excuse?
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
well what would you say that the predicted end times, occurs precisely (one generation after Israel becomes a nation again, 1967+49 yrs) at a time when beyond that, AI may grow to crazy levels, like you say....that human may migrate to other planets...that humans may start altering their genetics...
Terl
5 years, 5 months ago
humans and organics take too long to change. Look at a child, takes 4 years before it can do anything, and thats after 9 months of self assembly. No self respecting 3D printer will take 9 months to print out a fully mature and operational dynamically adaptable modular morphobot. these bots will be far cheaper to drop into teh asteroid belt, because proper designs woont need perfect material seperation, but will be able to use bulk glass, iron and alumina ceramics. You can already get mechanical logic built with memory store far higher than present electronics, look at IBMs Millipede. If you combine MEMs and other systems, you can build processing elements of insane power now. Back in the 1980s, I wanted to send ten thousand simultaneous channels through a CPUs logic gates. The highest mechanical frequency is a green sapphire hit with a green laser, at 600 TeraHz. Combine that, and the 3D optical effect from decades back, and you can easily look forward to electromechanical processorsof suprisngly large size, but many orders of magnitude more powerful than anything built in a complex fab plant, but this asteroid CPU will be melted, boiled, and dripped into place.

We have had most everything needed to get into space cheap, efficintly, get resources, solve all our problems for over 20 years, but making the poor rich, just means they want their turn at being in charge.

Its all about keeping the shit on top.
Yiffox
5 years, 5 months ago
despite the fact the processing power does not = intellect....one solar flare and your construct is slag
Terl
5 years, 5 months ago
Humans hate the idea that a large enough collection of totally dumb cooperative items can have intelligent behaviour, because they demand the right to be rulers of reality, gods of all they survey, instead of just being another collection of vibrating toothbrushes. 8}

As for a solar flare, Id have expected that in 50 years time, certain plasma control technology would be used for shielding, propulsion, power, communications, and even computation functions. Could you predict a Raspberry Pi today, from looking at a 1960s computer?
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