Inkbunny

exactly my first thought xD

KevinSnowpaw

11 years, 1 month ago

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Your character here.

ScottySkunk

11 years, 1 month ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

Ohhhh. premade pics?

KevinSnowpaw

11 years, 1 month ago

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it's that thing were they draw a bunch of Nondiscript place holder people in verius poses and you buy or bid on, a slot, which they then turn into your charicter.

ScottySkunk

11 years, 1 month ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

ahh. i havent run into much of those.

Bluewag

11 years, 1 month ago

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I guess you guys don't watch as many annoying artists as I do.

dafgdfagdf

11 years, 1 month ago

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ive only seen a few artists i watch do them and most of them dont make them shitty, but i have stumbled across a few that id have to agree with you on.

Hipstotter

11 years, 1 month ago

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I agree! The amount of YCH is just nauseating.

Bluewag

11 years, 1 month ago

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@ Hipstotter

I thought you were gonna go all memetic and say it was too damn high XD

Wolfblade

11 years, 1 month ago

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Yeah, fuck everyone doing what they want to do.

No artist should be able to do their art the way they want to do it, and people shouldn't support artists who want to use their own imaginations instead of being someone else's porn printer.

Damnation if it actually manages to make the artists more money while also costing individual buyers only a part of the higher cost. Witchcraft!

Nothing's more important than everybody getting their porn, their way.

BrandonBunny

11 years, 1 month ago

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While I see where you are coming from and agree with your train of thought, I do think still that flynn is some what right aswell. Imagination and doing what you want in art is a real nice comfort, but there is a lot of artists not really putting much effort forth on improving their skills. What I see more of, is right along the lines of this journal, where artists aren't using the advantage of imagination to their own well advantage. Keyword, MOST, of them are still doing cookie cutter images and only changing slight things to make the character fit.

Again I agree with where you come from more so than this journal, but it's not happening so much the way you pronounce, at least from what I have seen.

Wolfblade

11 years, 1 month ago

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Edited 11 years, 1 month ago by Owner

@ BrandonBunny

When artists are using these as an excuse to just be lazy, that does suck. They should be making the same effort they normally would. As I said, I haven't seen many artists putting less work into the finished YCH pic than they would normally. As for only making minor changes to the sketch - MOST artists draw all X species pretty much the same. The difference between how they'd draw this person's canine sona and that person's canine sona usually don't amount to more than those same "minor" changes. I would imagine that any >sensible< buyer who sees an artist's ych work significantly drop from their usual work would pass on bidding. Unless they still felt that even the lower-quality was still worth it to them.

And that's the point that matters in the whole price/worth/value argument. If someone else still feels it to be worth the cost, then that's that. Personally, I will always, always, always, find the whole notion of spinning rims, and the prices they go for, to be utterly stupid and ridiculous. I think the people buying them are retarded, and the people selling them are taking advantage of their retardedness. But I am certain that no small amount of people will disagree strongly with me, and even be offended at my opinion. And really, furry art commissions are no less frivolous and unnecessary than spinning rims. You don't need them, they serve no utilitarian purpose, but if you want it badly enough to think they're worth it, then you pay what you have to pay to have them. Or you don't think it's worth that much, and you don't get them.

The thing is though, there is a difference between speaking the opinion "I think you're stupid for paying that much for that stuff" versus telling people they can't, or they shouldn't, or implying that there's something wrong or deceitful with the manufacturers of spinning rims making the things available at all.

That's the difference most people "just expressing this opinion" don't seem to catch. Say "I think this sucks," sure, fine. But when you're acting like something is wrong about it, that anybody is being cheated or stolen from, or that people shouldn't be allowed to charge what the market will support, all that crap steps outside of "just expressing an opinion" and is very much attacking the character and behaviors of other people. Accusing someone of wrongdoing or cheating people or attacking their character or telling them there's a limit to the quality of life they are allowed to lead steps beyond simply having an opinion.

There's a difference between expressing that you don't understand the appeal others find in something, versus telling people "stop paying for shit you want to pay for because >I< don't like what you're paying for" as this journal is doing.

BrandonBunny

11 years, 1 month ago

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I see your viewpoint very well, and I agree with you completely. I guess it's just generally easier to say "Well damn, this sucks"

Wolfblade

11 years, 1 month ago

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@ BrandonBunny

Flynn helped me just below to elaborate on the specific point of why these "opinions" are more than that, and are not okay.

Bluewag

11 years, 1 month ago

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@ BrandonBunny

Don't ever let anyone tell you that having an opinion is not okay. Opinion is not a thought crime.

Wolfblade

11 years, 1 month ago

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Accusations and demands are not opinions.

Bluewag

11 years, 1 month ago

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"	Wolfblade wrote:
	There's a difference between expressing that you don't understand the appeal others find in something, versus telling people "stop paying for shit you want to pay for because >I< don't like what you're paying for" as this journal is doing.

The only difference I can see between the two is that you like they way one is expressed but not the other. They're both opinions. Kinda like how people can rant and rave about "America embracing homosexuality" being the downfall of society are entitled to their opinion, I, too, am entitled to the opinion that patronizing YCH auctions encourages artists to churn out unimaginative art in the same pose over and over again.

Wolfblade

11 years, 1 month ago

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OMG, you hit precisely the failure people have in distinguishing an opinion they are entitled to from what is actually a harmful statement that is >not< simply an opinion! Your "opinion" here IS like the "opinion" you bring up, and is wrong for the same reason; you're making a negative and derogatory judgment of people using fallacious reasoning to apply a direct fault and responsibility to change to correct a state of affairs you feel to be undesirable - you're blaming them for something which leads to people feeling it's okay to mistreat them because hey, this thing that has us upset is their fault. It is NOT the same thing as an opinion of "I don't like this."

You seriously could not have chosen a more perfect way to establish my point for me, thank you.

The idea of "America embracing gays will be the downfall of society" is NOT simply "an opinion" that ANYBODY should be entitled to. It vilifies a specific group of people and blames them for a perceived unwanted state of affairs that is NOT accurate or fair or rational to blame them for. This "opinion" is used to justify negative judgment of the people it dumps baseless and irrational blame upon.

An opinion, by definition, is not something based on facts or objective reasoning. It is subjective belief, not substantial fact. Matters of opinion are things that can't be right or wrong; preference, tastes, likes/dislikes. I like this movie, I hate that music, I think this is stupid, I think that looks better over there. Things that do not have an objectively verifiable yes/no, true/false, right/wrong answer.

"Embracing gays will destroy society" is a statement of proposed fact where we CAN look at actual facts and evidence and see more than a significant amount of verifiable data to dispute the claim. It is not simply an opinion, it is a statement that is at the very least extremely questionable in its veracity, AND, the spread of this fallacious idea directly leads to feelings and attitudes that are used to justify negative and hurtful treatment, behavior and regard towards people who have NOT done anything of any kind of wrong to warrant this negative judgment.

Your statements and attitude towards ych auctions goes well beyond simply expressing a subjective opinion.

You are assigning aspects of blame and wrong-doing to people, and expressing negative and derogatory judgment of those people because of your fallacious and irrational application of blame to these people, as well as making demands that people change behavior which is beneficial to them, and causes NO detriment to you which they can be fairly faulted for (Joe being chosen instead of Bob for a job does not mean it is "Joe's fault" that Bob remains jobless - Bob telling Joe he has to quit so Bob can have the job is comparable to what you are doing), but you want them to instead switch to behavior which is more to your personal subjective preferences, but which DOES deny them circumstances that would be much more preferable to them.

You go beyond "I don't like this, I'd prefer something else instead" to "you people are wrong for doing this, you are taking something from me, and you all need to change what you are doing to suit my preferences, even at the cost of a direct disadvantage and limiting of your own best interests."

If you can't see the difference here, as you can't see how "embracing gays will be the downfall of society" is NOT a simple opinion people should be entitled to hold, and believe, and spread to others as if it is truth: then I at least hope others seeing this can understand the difference. Because it is a fucking big one.

The reaction this "opinion" gets from artists is justified in the same way as the reaction the "gays will destroy society" opinion gets from gay people who - rightfully so - find it to be a closed-minded, egocentric, offensive and hurtful opinion that SHOULD be fought every time it surfaces.

Bluewag

11 years, 1 month ago

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I'm allowed to have whatever opinions I please, and am free to express them however I wish, in whatever venue I wish. This is my journal, after all. No one forced you to come here and write as much as you have on the topic. You can ascribe all kinds of nastiness to me, if that's what makes you feel justified in impugning me because of an opinion.

The point of the matter is, I find YCH journals/submissions cluttering up my feeds bothersome, the art generated by it to be of generally lesser quality and less diverse, and encourages commissioners to accept this lesser quality custom luxury item for the same or even GREATER cost than they were previously obtaining them. The way I have seen these conducted favors the artist only and not the general commissioning public. As an artist, you don't agree. I'm totally fine with that. What I'm not fine with is you launching attacks comparing me to this or that kind of person. One thing you are really great at is straw manning someone's argument. It doesn't make your argument any stronger to weaken somebody else's with misinformation; it makes it weaker that it can't stand on its own without detracting from an opposing viewpoint.

Now, if you can't express yourself respectfully and succinctly, kindly go away. You haven't earned nearly enough good will from whatever "friendship" we had at some point for me to allow you to commandeer a journal and spread a cloud of negativity over my space, especially given how quickly you jumped to believing the worst about me with no proof whatsoever.

This isn't George Orwell's 1981; there's no such thing as a thought crime. I'm fully entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours. If you have a problem embracing that, then it's YOU who is like the "America embracing gays will be the downfall of society" crowd (ie. unable to respect a different opinion) than I (ie. openly respecting the opinion, though disagreeing).

Please take your snide, nasty, self-satisfied attitude elsewhere. It really, truly is not welcome here.

Wolfblade

11 years, 1 month ago

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Freedom of speech does not mean 'I can express myself any way in any venue.' Saying whatever/however/wherever you want isn't a right. Nor is going unchallenged when you're wrong.

However, you ARE right in that THIS venue is yours; you can express yourself however you like here. If I seemed to say "you can't say this," I'll clarify; you can say this, but it's wrong. Your claims are not true of most of the people you make them against, and your demands are irrational and self-centered.

I'm not ascribing nastiness to you. I am trying to help you see how what you did WAS - unintentionally - nasty to the people you're talking to and about. I've shown how and why this journal is NOT just an opinion: YOU are laying negative claims and irrational demands against a group of people that includes me. It's not how you've done it, it's that doing this is wrong, regardless of how you presented it.

Let's pretend you had been neutral: "Artists/commissioners, please stop doing what both groups of you find to be preferable. I just really don't like it. Commission slots are taken from us when other people are paying so much more for them. I see why you all like doing it this way, but I'd rather you take commissions the way I want you to take them. Please go back to doing things the way I prefer it instead of the way you prefer it. Thank you."

Can you see what's wrong there, even if asked nicely? AGAIN: you're not stating an opinion with this journal. You're making claims and demands. Those claims and demands are wrong and irrational regardless of how you make them.

So you don't like ych.

Ask people to add 'ych' to their tags, and then you filter that tag. Or unwatch those artists. Speaking on the quality of the artwork, or who the arrangement favors, those are opinions, so I won't argue those points beyond stating that clearly people paying for them disagree.

YOU compared what you were doing - validly - to the people blaming gays. Your journal, like those people, are NOT "expressing opinions." Both are making false claims and demanding change from people that would take away what they want to satisfy what you want. I'm not straw-manning. That's what your journal and that "opinion" are doing. Present the text of this journal and our exchange to someone you trust to be fair and objective and see what they think.

If you can't see how saying "fuck off with this bullshit" and telling us how we can or can't offer our services is disrespectful to me and anyone doing these, then I wouldn't know where to begin satisfying your concept of respectful. As for succinctly, yeah, I suck at that.

"	"America embracing gays will be the downfall of society" crowd (ie. unable to respect a different opinion) than I (ie. openly respecting the opinion, though disagreeing).

NOT. OPINIONS. Those people are NOT "unable to respect a different opinion." Jesus Christ. Those people are BLAMING gays for the ills of society and demanding EVERYONE CHANGE to act how those people want them to act. Which is WHAT YOUR JOURNAL IS DOING, and why you, like those people, are in the wrong.

Even if that statement WAS just an opinion - you're saying to RESPECT people who believe gays will be the downfall of society? That belief deserves respect? People are being told how to live their life by someone who is only negatively affected because they have all these WRONG ideas that make them THINK they're negatively affected by it - you say we're supposed to RESPECT that?

Think of the insanity of a gay person standing in front of one of those people and being told "you have to respect this person and their beliefs even though they, their incorrect belief, AND their expression of it are all disrespectful to you." That's what you're doing and saying here.

This isn't about our fight. If you meant anything you ever said to me about respecting me when we were friends, then why is it impossible for you to give me that credit now?

Bluewag

11 years, 1 month ago

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Boolean expression "respectfully AND succinctly" failed. Topic locked.

I'm not sure why it took you five months to care about anything to do with me, even though it's an opinion expressed on the internet. Maybe you feel guilty, or maybe you're trying to justify your dislike of me now by going that extra mile to try and discredit my opinion (only to further entrench it, by the way). Not really sure, not really interested in knowing. Just go away, please.

You're an incredibly negative and toxic factor in my life right now that I can happily do without. After the amount of stomach churning anxiety and emotional tumult I've felt since September, I see absolutely nothing further to be gained from speaking again in any medium.

You go your way and constantly think the worst about everybody, even your friends; I'll go mine and be foolishly trusting and cultivate as many meaningful relationships as I can.

Bluewag

11 years, 1 month ago

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I don't even watch you, nor have I for months. I have no idea what you're up to up to artistically. If you're doing YCH stuff, that's your own business. I'm allowed to have an opinion, and it's just as valid as yours.

Lurdanjo

11 years, 1 month ago

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