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Whippy

What the heck is the benefit of abstractification?

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Okay, so I was reading this page about Kit's air foil. If you scroll all the way down and look at the bottom part about the uses of Kit's air foil...it gets extremely weird. It gives the impression of suddenly turning from an easy to grasp cartoon into one of those anime role playing games where everything is measured out as a number:
" Its first use is as a riding board, for which a character uses the Mechanical: airfoil operation skill. Without improving this skill beyond the base attribute, the character suffers a +10 increase to all riding difficulties.


This kind of junk makes no sense to me what so ever!! And I can't stand it when people do this to things. What the hell is +10 riding difficulty??!!! This is an animated show!!!  The animators more than likely thought in terms of weight, force,and  momentum. Stuff you can actually FEEL in real life. Putting every little thing on a number scale is just turning it from something simple and understandable into some stupidly complex math problem.

This is one reason I think I've avoided every single Final Fantasy and everything similar to it. I just can not boil the world down that much and still be satisfied. I remember growing up and playing games like megaman, zelda, TMNT, and the like. Even with those 8-bit pixelated graphics, I still matched it up to something real. The idea of having an energy meter made sense because I knew what it was like to run out of energy in real life. You can only take so many hits before it's night night time XD And when you learn a skill in real life, you can feel and see proof that you get better.

In my mind I only see the over abstracting thing as a way very unconvincing way to add "variety" to a game while keeping the variety restricted to abstract programming variables, not tangible or visual things. To do this to a cartoon without any reason what so ever is just useless.
Viewed: 78 times
Added: 6 years ago
 
MrSOCKS
6 years ago
*reads the article*
Now, *this* is an example of someone with too much time on their hands.
Dudes. It's a fucking cartoon.
The airfoil is like Captain America's shield and Batarangs. They're not based on physics or aerodynamic practicality. They're props that look cool in action.
The only thing in this topic that's more inane to discuss, is light-sabers.
Whippy
6 years ago
LOL...thank you!
Yes...waaaay too much time on their hands.
supremekitten
6 years ago
Ah don't take this personally, but I don't agree at all.

I remember growing up and playing games like angband http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Ang... ... and scorched earth... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/Scorched...
Also a bunch of other games... they had plenty of lovely numbers.
also a bunch of card games... like poker, those had nice numbers too, and board games also

You'll be happy to notice that all high budget computer games nowadays like to strip all menus and leave those stupid simplified bars without numbers.

I won't be happy, because i hate this, I like my numbers just fine and this new trend is only stripping the gameplay of any depth, fun, and overall making them stupid and annoying.

Sorry, to me a game is a game, not a movie and not a role play. a role play game is still a game. A game has rules and game mechanics, and generally lots of numbers. I hate all these new games which are like 1/2 a movie and the other 1/2 is a completely simplified, nonexistent gameplay.

A game at the most basic level is a list of abstract rules and usually also numbers, not a glorified movie with some button mashing on top.
Not everyone likes numbers, but some people do, I like numbers.
I like thinking about numbers, and adding them to stuff, and debating them. And to make fictional graphs of power of anime characters... in numbers, and debate it.
I have a nice text i wrote debating how much calories a human must eat to have the energy of a nuclear explosion of some type, and then it went into an analysis of energy usage of magical circles and runes.
Whippy
6 years ago
Hmm..movies with glorified button mashing. I actually like games with a very good story to them. Also ones that have a lot of little actions you can do. Reality simulation stuff like Shenmue, Grand Theft Auto, or even Flash Back. Portal sucked me in pretty well too, those puzzles were very fun. Often I'm not too interested in a character's stats unless it prevents me from interacting in the environment in some way.

This might sound odd but I would love a game with no levels or things to "beat" at all. Just a really interesting space to explore, maybe build some things. I do this a lot in games that let me get away with it. Just walk, swim, or fly around playing with stuff.

I understand that games do need numbers, well...most games, not all. It just seems to ruin the fun for me when the numbers become the main focus of everything. I know that in a digital game, the program itself needs variables and 'stats' in order to make it all work, and most of that is hidden from the user while they play.

It's just that seeing that role playing system applied to TaleSpin today really....irked me to no end because it didn't seem useful, intuitive, or needed in that case.
supremekitten
6 years ago
Honestly, I do like some exploration "games" which lack any visible numbers (or even life bars), like Knytt and some others. (If you haven't played Knytt, you should, also knytt stories - and there are lots of "expansion" areas for that one). Also Yume nikki was an interesting exploration "game" where stats didn't matter.
But I also like my stat management and particularly I like some level grinding, and those games where everything levels up, I just love those. Like rune factory 3 where you level up your "walking" by walking, your "sleeping skill" by going to bed, your "eating skill" by using food items, and so on and on and on. (a total of about 50 skills lol)
Or Disgaea where your levels go up to 9999 and your stats go up to millions. You level up your individual stats, your levels, your items, your shopkeepers, your skills, disgaea was all about leveling your numbers, also awesome.
And there are some games which simply need numbers, particularly most strategy/simulation games which center around buying and selling stuff, as well as rpg games... an rpg without any numbers is just meh. While in rpg's one has to limit stat management, if you strip all the numbers from it, it just flattens the game mechanics and makes it less interesting.
BunnyFoxglove
6 years ago
lol usually when they list stuff like that, it has to do with D&D. This is because you can import anything into D&D using a set of rules and guidelines. Heck there's even a huge book somebody made around the rules of sex in D&D. It's kind of funny that people get that involved with this stuff, but to each their own pass-time.

As for the view on a "generalized overview", that doesn't actually exist in games. That bar you see, actually has a numerical value attached to it. There's a numerical rate at which it goes down based on what you do, etc. A lot of games these days have the numbers turned off by default for the casual gamer, but there's usually an option to turn them back on for the more advanced users.
joykill
6 years ago
it seems like everything on this site uses this kinda model. outside the bottom blub it a handy resource. it feels like your complaining just to complain.  
Whippy
6 years ago
Well, bitching, yes I am. And also asking why is it useful?
joykill
6 years ago
i was more meaning the information on the top more then the RPG info on the bottom
shadycat
6 years ago
I've looked over that site a number of times over the years. Honestly, it looks like someone was trying to put together a Talespin RPG. Not the worst idea ever...
Whippy
6 years ago
Ah...I guess it could be worse ^^; Although it's difficult to imagine how..
shadycat
6 years ago
Really? They could have tried putting together an RPG without quantifiable values. See? That was easy.
Whippy
6 years ago
*falls over laughing* ^.^
KevinSnowpaw
6 years ago
it's rules for the D6 role playing systum.

" Readers will notice a box following the end of each character or vehicle profile, with a list of figures such as "2D" or "3D+2" in various categories. These numbers, known as die codes, are based on the classic "D6" system published by West End Games.
Whippy
6 years ago
Yeah..haha! I noticed that later today when browsing that site. Still makes me cringe seeing it applied to TaleSpin though ^///^
NaydrxSpade
6 years ago
All games rely on numbers.  Ever program a game before?  Even the most simplified game like Minecraft has very difficult programming to make simple interactions like walking into a wall.  Without numbers in a game, the game will never be.  Energy bars need a certain amount of numbers so that your character won't die too quickly.
Whippy
6 years ago
Yes, I know. I haven't programmed a game before but I do dabble with programming in general. I'm not bashing using numbers in games period. What I am bashing is abstracting everything out to a number and making the player deal with it purely as numbers. All that calculation is usually hidden from the player in video games.  I always thought games were akin to make-believe where you essentially put yourself in a character's shoes and act as them in their world for a while. The first time I heard the term "role playing game" it made me excited because I thought it would be a very Immersive thing where you really get into the character and their world. Sadly, it turned out to be a final fantasy style game with turn based attack systems and a complex system of stats for everything.  
NaydrxSpade
6 years ago
And that's where the immersion comes in.  It all depends on how well you upgrade your character(s) abilities and statistics.  Every item and ability makes a character strong on one side, but weakens them on another, like if you want your character to wear a ring that increases their strength and defense by five points, but at the cost of two health points, would you use it?  It's a way to balance out a character so that they aren't a "god" character . . . like most broken M.U.G.E.N characters >.>
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