Inkbunny

Same in Canada too. Best they've done is stop interest. But I still owe 16k or so.

An American will say "wtf? Only 16k?" meanwhile a European will go "wtf? You owe money for going to Uni?"

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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@ OneManArmy

Uni and the like used to be more or less free here. I don't know the exact story though, but I'm all for it if it's for skilled people we need and those who go for it are committed.

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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I think the working class produces the wealth, goods, and services in use by society through its labor; thus the workers should democratically decide how those things are distributed and to ensure the six basic necessities -- food, water, clothing, shelter, healthcare, and education for each citizen be met in exchange for their labor -- not commodified for profit. We already pay those who didn't attend for-profit colleges to attain their requisite skills, who provide a societal benefit -- those with experience, licenses, and certifications in vocational trades / physical labor. We can do the same for those who choose to attend college and provide a societal benefit though their educational experience. From each according to his ability to each according to his needs.

Long story short -- I think education is a public good that benefits the needs of society and that we as citizens of society are benefactors of this public good. Therefore, the financial burden of education should not be borne by the individual, but by the society as a whole. Student loans simply shouldn't exist.

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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Sadly many attempts at it failed. Great in basic theory in many contexts, but no guaranty of anything.

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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So what do you do when you fail?  You get back up and try again.  And try again, and again, and again if necessary until you succeed.  Capitalism is by its very nature a predatory system that preys on the weak and vulnerable, has ravaged the planet for every consumable natural resource, and has finally reached its late stage unsustainability.

What you're basically saying, "Socialism doesn't work."  To that I ask, "Then how come the ruling class spends obscene amounts of time, effort, energy, money and an equal measure of violence in order to sabotage and/or suppress it?"  America is an oligarchy masquerading as a dictatorship of private capital.

The true purpose of Socialism is to advance beyond the predatory phase of human development.  We're coming up pretty quick on the time when the choice between Socialism or Barbarism, and that choice will need to be made before this decade is out... if we make it that far.

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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You're better at me then words, I'd say that mate. I agree with the predatory description of capitalism, though as you said with you fall down, get back up is a common quark of it.

I'm fine with whatever works depending on the given context. But I'd rather not live in the USSR or China in the 50s.

I've never regarded it as a political thing, but a social one. Mix it with politics and you end up somewhere no better. Look at an Israeli Kibbutz, I have little respect for anything going on over there, they have all largely lost my respect, but the Kibbutz works in of itself.

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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Marx was a philosopher first, which in turn makes Socialism a philosophy first and a polity second. As to the USSR -- both nations beat back tyranny during WWII. Most of that war was fought on the Russian Front. Long story short, Communism defeated Fascism, even at the point of being pyrrhic. So, in a way, an argument can be made that the triumphs of Communism are directly responsible for you and I having the rights we do today. Let's also not forget that the USSR, while not perfect in any way, had a better standard of living than we've been led to believe. Let us also not forget that the USSR a) launched the first satellite into orbit, b) sent the first man into space, and c) performed the the first EVA (spacewalk). Yes, the United States made it to the moon, and yes, it is the greatest achievement of our species to date.

Those are some hella badges for a society whose reign as a superpower only lasted about 70 years. But if you were to ask me: Would you choose Communism or Fascism? Well, I think the choice is a no-brainer. One is a philosophy about we-we-we, the other an ideology about me-me-me. There's a massive difference between the two.

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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Edited 1 year, 11 months ago by Owner

True, he was a decent bloke, I like too think he turned in his grave. And maybe in Russia but in the Ukraine in the 30s they starved 8 million or so to death almost intentionally. But yeah in Russia things weren't so bad.
And Hitler was a fool in 1941, he attacked his Eastern foe with a giant airbase on the other side that flattened his means of production... done by slaves. It was one dictatorship vs another.

Maybe. Though the US could've sent a satellite up first, but refused too use a military rocket but a scientific one that was still months away from being ready and it wasn't until after the first EVA that a progressive developmental manned space program was started with Soyuz, before that Vostoc and Voskhod were more intended for firsts feats rather then technology development.
Then the Yanks made it to the Moon and destroyed one of the most well set up engineering programs ever, the Apollo and Saturn programs have been seen in hindsight as cheaper then the Shuttle, more versatile and adaptable and could've been used on a Venus flyby in 1975 (check out the Apollo Applications Program, it's amazing!) and by large what Souyz and Salyut did but on a far wider scale. Sure the US made it too the Moon, but the USSR made a sustainable, progressive and economical space program. Soyuz is only now at the end of it's potential after 50 or so years of development, imagine what the Apollo/Saturn system could've done?! And as for rockets, they are now only developing a replacement for the R-7 core rocket used since Sputnik... over 60 years of use!
The USSR could've had a shuttle the Buran, it was not worth it. The Shuttle apart from it's job with the Hubble Space Telescope and maybe the ISS was mostly a fun failure.

I choose democracy, the rite too tell either too go fuck themselves. Both types of government prevent free speech, criticism and assembly. I live in a democracy which had parties that can reflect them and I'll always respect their right too make their stand. The US is lucky, it got close with Trump in becoming fascist, if he gets back... VOTE!

I'm not American and live where workers rights, access to healthcare, compensation for health issues and the like have been around along with universal suffrage for longer then living memory, much of that can't be said for either the US or Russia... or Switzerland for that matter. (although we have our share of serious social problems as well)

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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The Holodomor was a natural disaster exacerbated by sanctions and mismanagement. Yes, the same kinds of sanctions that are being put on Russia today were put on the Soviet Union back in the 30s. The harvest of that year (1932-33) didn't yield what the Soviets originally expected, and so they grossly overestimated the grain output. Western powers refused to accept gold as payment on the previous regime's debts, and instead insisted on other commodities -- lumber, oil, and grain. By the 1930s, the major Western powers (the US, Britain, France), would only accept payment in grain. So, when the 1932-33 harvest season came around and grain was in short supply -- these are the perfect ingredients for a famine.

The common belief that the Communists deliberately starved the people of Soviet Ukraine is Nazi propaganda. The fact that it has persisted this long and is widely believed would make Goebbels proud.

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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Edited 1 year, 11 months ago by Owner

Yeah, that's what they all say commie. They say the same stuff about the Potato famine and Mao's Great Leap Forward. I didn't say it was artificial.

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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These facts don't change because they hurt your feelings, challenge, or invalidate your beliefs. History is history. I didn't become a Socialist because I woke up one day and said, "Well this looks like fun." It's taken years of very careful research, questioning and discarding most of my former beliefs about the way the world is.

I did not deny the Holodomor occurred. I presented clear, concise facts that the historical record shows for the time period. To lay blame squarely on the USSR and Communism for this as a deliberate act on their part in the face of this evidence is juvenile and irresponsible. Be well with your way.

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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Dude, I agree with you. My only issue is I've yet to see a nation that really is what it says.

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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Mao's famine was the result of continuing to export wheat as a cash crop instead of saving some for his people.

The Potato famine had a number of contributors including poor weather, and blight that contaminate multiple farms. It was bad farming tactics and a lack of other forms of employment and terrible policy set by the British.

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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Yep, pretty much.

TheGroundedAviator

1 year, 11 months ago

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Sorry for prior words. I recently had faced off against a vile Nazi like guy who said the Holocaust didn't happen and another who said the Falun Gong weren't in camps and being harvested for kidneys and livers.

KushHeadFievel

1 year, 11 months ago

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Edited 1 year, 11 months ago by Owner

I would say marijuana taxes could pay for quite a lot but our government is still too afraid to give up their war on mostly pot.

You want a good productive system you might just have to make some compromises to get there.
You people started a problem, I don't mean you. I mean the system approving Opioid in pill form then people get hooked.
They began the problem then try to fix it?

Student loans should not be there at all, anyone who has the brains to do this should be able to get that education.

My two cents.

KushHeadFievel

1 year, 11 months ago

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@ KushHeadFievel

In simple why should others have to pay for the country's future?

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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@ KushHeadFievel

If we want to maintain a functioning society we have to see to the advancement of those that will eventually replace us.

We need to leave the infuctucture necessary for growth to occur in all its facets.

Education in American is funded and regulated at the state and local level. Most states require public education for all children in their jurisdiction under their constitution.

So their is a legal precedent to provide some form of public education.

The debt issue has accrued as private and public universities increase tuition and course work for degrees beyond inflationary forces.

Student debt can't be discharged by bankruptcy as other private loans.

So that debt has accumulated into a staggering amount that simply isn't going away as so many student can't get work that will accommodate that debt.

Its dragging down consumer spending and creating a bubble that could endanger other finacial intuitions if it bursts like the housing bubble.

So there immediate and long term consequences for not dealing with the debt.

Sleepyly

1 year, 11 months ago

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I dont wanna discuss politics in general, specially with things i dont have in depth knowledge of but i wanna ask you to please get out of this mindset of "Evol right wingars just want to see me dead and poor!". Everything has a reason to be in human society, be it right or wrong, if some people are afraid of forgiving loans its because there are serious consequences for doing so.
Take this from a person who has no future and may be on the streets in a few years, if there was a magical solution to such worldly problems and i didn't have to pay a cent i would hop right on it. I too want this world to be more gentle, warm and caring but you don't do this by saying "Fuck you, pay me"

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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Sadly, "Fuck you, pay me," is what we have in America. Unfortunately, America is an oligarchy, a dictatorship of private capital. There are no good reasons for the things to be going on and currently ravaging the world, where the wealthiest few continue to profit at the behest of the many who continue to struggle, equally for no good reason.

There aren't serious consequences for forgiving student loan debt. Were that true, why did the Fed buy back $4 trillion dollars of corporate-owned debt at a 0% interest rate through the CARES Act? So everyone blows smoke about student borrowers who can't afford a pot to piss in, but somehow letting corporations off the hook is magically okay? Seems to me the pot's calling the kettle black.

Sleepyly

1 year, 11 months ago

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As flawed as it is (And it sure is) the United States is still one of the best countries to live in, if not, then why is it still one of the main targets for immigration? People say America is literally the worst place to live in but they never go to Cuba or Nigeria because they know these countries are exponentially worse even if you are living under a bridge. Point being its a superpotency for a reason and that reason is great economic freedom (tho there really isnt much left of it), yes it could use a better healthcare system, improve the immigration process among other things but its not hell.

The Fed should not exist really, yes they forgive the rich but they really shouldn't which is why the economy is stagnating (Too big to fail my ass). But my point is this doesn't make forgiving student debts an action without consequence, someone has to pay for that education and the bill has to go somewhere.

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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I would need to see proof as to whether the US is one of the main targets for immigration, but hypothetically if that's a true statement, my answer to your question is that anyone who is seeking asylum or refuge has a right to seek it.  One of the biggest reasons I believe the US may be an immigration target is that the US dollar remains the world's reserve currency.  When, and if, that balance shifts to another country's currency -- ala, the Russian ruble or the Chinese yuan, I will suggest those immigration patterns may very well change.

In terms of world order the United States is an empire, if but for its financial stake in the world's economy alone.  The problem here is, as history has shown time and again, all empires collapse under their own weight.  It happened to the Egyptians, the Persians, the Romans, the Ottomans, and the British (I know I'm not carte blanche naming every single empire that ever existed -- these are but a few examples).  It will happen here as well, and that fleet of ships has already done sailed.  Capitalism has rendered itself unsustainable.  The only way to progress forward from here is to implement Socialism by piece meal.  If we don't act on it, our children will.

As for student loan forgiveness is concerned, the consequences of instituting this predatory practice should have been considered prior to the Fed and college institutions colluding on convincing entire generations of its nation's populace that the best path for everyone is the most expensive one.  Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs fame said it best:  "We're lending money we don't have to kids with no hope of paying it back for jobs that don't exist."

Sleepyly

1 year, 11 months ago

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I remember seeing this statistic in a geography book but that was quite a while ago, though i believe its still true, after all why else they have such ridiculously harsh immigration rules? If not they would probably be begging for qualified labor.
I think the US will collapse more due to cultural reasons, economies can be rebuilt as so with most things material. What i believe is the problem is that the country is essentially forgetting what it is, why it was made to exist in the first place and why this legacy has been passed on through generations..
As well as rampant materialism which is sorta related with things you are saying, many of the rich just want to see the numbers grow and while every business has to be profitable good ones know that they are made by their employees and the people who keep them alive as consumers. Its not just on a business level but on an individual one too though honestly i dont wanna spend 30 minutes writing about it :P

Surprisingly i kinda agree with the last paragraph? Why the fuck are people giving 100k loans to people who will make anywhere between 0 and 2000 dollars a month (arts and similar majors i mean)? Sure govt can cover it in certain cases but that is only rolling the debt forward, the student still has to pay. Honestly how the fuck someone even considers giving gender studies students loan money?
But what is done is done and you cant just uno reverse it unfortunately, as sad as it is.

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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Sorry I don't have the heart of a servant.

I recognize the untenable postion of personal debt and national debt.

The right offers no solution and rather let the whole system collapse in favor of perfer tax expert status for the wealthy.

This has been the right's only accomplishment beyond unpaid for war over 50 years.

This is a solution that puts the burden on banks and those foolish enough to hold contracts on debt that never will be paid off.

Dems have their share of blame, being as they helped everyone get into debt in the 90s instead of getting them out of poverty.

The centers policy of just ignoring every issue under the sun hasn't resolved anything ether.

The time has come to take action.

And I don't pity the banks or others that feast off the debt of the poor.

Sleepyly

1 year, 11 months ago

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You dont need to pity the banks, pity yourself and your buddies after everything collapses on your heads.
And while i agree that a collapse is inevitable and mistakes have been made treating the business class as a supervillain never worked, communism is merely the greatest extreme of that at display but every social and economic system that relies on the mentality of pillaging will fail. Essentially: "Muh social democracy" and its derivatives will fail.

I don't say this out of mean spirit, rather i just want people to think about the consequences of their mindset and what that actually looks like in practice

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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We've been in rescission for two months already.

The persistent supply chain issues haven't been resolved.

China is shutting down on covid outbreak.

Russia is throwing oil markets into panic.

Wages are not enough to get people to work.

People are spending less as they have no money to spare beyond essentials.

Now's a good time to rotate into I-bonds if you can.

I got to work last two years and my wages bumped a little as no one cares to drive truck anymore.

And Republicans raised my effective tax rate from 4 to 22 and removed itemization which lost me my pre diem.

I am the one holding up this failed country.

I can't even get the funds to pave the roads I got to drive on to deliver your groceries.

I'm not the problem nor the cause.

Sleepyly

1 year, 11 months ago

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Didn't say you were neither of both, sorry if it came out like that.

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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Can you not really see when only one party, one class has all the power and influence to set policy there is only one side to blame?

The left and workers have had no say at all after decades of right wing policy and union busting.

Maybe Smalls can actually push organize labor back into a prominent role.

Better man then I and the entire democratic party for certain.

But I'm not going to forgive the center or the right until they reconcile their negligence and corruption.

Hell I haven't even touched on the bigotry of religious revival turning places like Tennesse into a hot bed of child marriage and codified abuse of spouses.

Sleepyly

1 year, 11 months ago

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Idk much about the American political system but outside of elections and such i see the left gaining more and more power socially so its definitely not entirely one sided, specially considering that this has fueled candidates like Bernie, and yes i know he will likely never get elected but i cant imagine shit like that happening 20 or so years ago.
Also how can it be so one side if last election was so tight? I feel the left is so obsessed with their underdog narrative that they blind themselves to even their own achievements, i guess its all or nothing then.

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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You can't tie Democrats to the left.

When Obama had 2/3 of the senate and able to pass any legislation he wanted, they gave us a health care plan written by the Heritage Society. A extreme ring wing organization.

So instead of Medicare for all like all of eourpe, or the public option which was the moderate compromise, we were force into buying private insurance at ridiculous premiums and unfair deductibles.

Obama also continued the war in Afghanistan for no gain for us or them, indiscriminately bombed everyone under the sun, and continued spying on Americans.

He didn't gain us marriage equality, the defining vote on the supreme court was cast by a libertarian, as was the recent ruling protection homosexuals from being fired or denied hire based on their sexual preference.

Biden has kept none of his promises, letting Manchin a conservative Democrat tank his entire domestic agenda, and only got a supreme court justice advanced because the balance of the court is still 6/3 in favor of Republicans.

Democrats have done nothing to advance left agenda and capitulate to conservative policy at every chance.

Republicans have embrace full on facisism under Trump's cult of personality and never made any effort to compromise with the left.

The left has no representation, and thus no power to affect policy at all.

Don't buy the branding of corporations flying a rainbow flag.

Its pure hype and nothing else.

AxleFurret

1 year, 11 months ago

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I do not think Biden or the people controlling Biden are going to let him forgive average student loans considering Biden was one of, if not the biggest, signers and advocates of the 2005 "Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act". https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/joe-bid... That stripped all standard bankruptcy protections from private AND public student loans, then he and a lot of politicians on the left AND right immediately went on to make massive profits off of banks and student loan lending companies/agencies as tuition costs skyrocketed once student debt was treated like criminal debt and not dischargeable in bankruptcy

My thoughts on what should be done, especially considering I still have student loans that now cost many times more than they were:

I think instead of outright forgiveness, they just need to return the bankruptcy protections and treat student loan debt as any other form of consumer debt, able to be discharged in bankruptcy. That way the people that take that route will have a tough time with credit for about 7 years, but will not have their lives completely and utterly ruined like they are now, and the people that can afford to or have paid their loans off will not be as pissed off as what would happen with "forgiveness".

I also don't think government issued or government backed student loans should be allowed to charge interest or tack on fees.

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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@ AxleFurret

A reasonable position.

KevinSnowpaw

1 year, 11 months ago

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Edited 1 year, 11 months ago by Owner

preditory loans are something im very much against.

Forgiveing billions in student loans is however not great economicly and also.. not the governments job.. it's not there job to bail your ass out becouse you were unable to get a job in the feild you wanted or tok out a bunch of laons and then never finished school in the firstplace.

I dont want to screw people here but it's also not fair to tax payers to have them bail your ass out.

it's also not a salution.

the real salution is to tackle both preditory loans AND the issue with the american educational system.

the cost of a collage education has SKYROCKTED every year, and the value OF that education as continued to decline all while theres absolutely no garantee you will get into the feild you want right out of school.

Collage COSTS to fucking much.

we make collage more affordable and then a lot of these issues go away

problem is we have all bought into this manufactured MYTH that we NEED collage to be secsessful you can go to a trade school for less then 1/50th the cost of collage and get a damn good job.

CuriousFerret

1 year, 11 months ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

You can't discharge student loan debt through bankruptcy.

It's a mill stone around your neck for life.

On top of universities adding superfluous credits needed to get a degree.

The whole thing is a racket.

Assuming the government has the right to legislate away such credit requirement practices, that doesn't deal with the accrued debt hang over peoples heada suppressing their purchasing power creating a drag on the economic as well as an ever growing debt bubble that will burst at point when it proves impossible to collect.

A mortgage has the house as collateral, a car loan the vehicle to repo.

How do you reclaim an education?

Dent forgiveness removes that drag on consumers as well as recuperate tax revenue as debtors would be taxed on the forgiven loans.

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

So... let's not forgive billions in Federal Student Loan debt, but instead bail out multi billion dollar corporations to the tune of $4 trillion dollars that they then refuse to pay back?  Student loans should not exist, period.  I have already posted all of my reasons why for this further up in the thread.  I will only repeat one.

Educated people produce thing for society's benefit.  Therefore, the burden of the cost of that education should not be levied on the individual, but the society as a whole.  The government, politicians, and college institutions colluded together to commodify the "value" of education for profit.  Unfortunately society as a whole made a bad decision and bought into this commodified lie.  Therefore, society as a whole must bear the brunt of the cost of this mistake.

If we can afford to bail out corporations, if we can afford to send massive amounts of aid and arms to engage in a proxy war, if we can afford to spend almost a trillion dollars a year annually on national defense, we can afford to absorb the cost of a lie.  This can be done, with the flick of a pen at no cost to the taxpayer, but we actively choose not to do it.  It's our fault as a society that we pass off wealth, job titles, and social status as merit.  Those with a for-profit education don't necessarily work harder than those without.  I know it sounds a little off-putting, but at the same time it's objective observation.

KevinSnowpaw

1 year, 11 months ago

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I don't agree with bailing out corporations either. Though I suppose at least in that case you could argue it helps save some jobs. I still don't like it though.

As to the rest of that...uhh..opinion...I'm sorry but no.

Your not entitled to free shit, stop listening to your lib arts professor.

Now I'm not saying there's no marit to the concept of a secsesfull nation providing state funded education, but we allready do this with the public school system and its terrible. It teaches you very little.

Sorry man communism, Socialism, anything with Marx attatched...items not going to hold water with me. History's proven it doesn't work, and please! Don't come at me with that not real socialism, not real communism crap.

You took out a loan to invest in the betterment of yourself. Nobody should be entitled to pay the back but you.

BattyBatFirebrand

1 year, 11 months ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

I'm not going to get into discourse and defend Socialism or Marxist philosophy with you, but I would like to point out a few things to help you try and understand my position, be it that you disagree:

1) You might not agree with bailing out corporations, but it's being done on your dime time and again and without your say-so.
No one ever has the wedge about that.  There's only outcry for students to repay their college debt, not for corporations to repay their outstanding debt.

2) There's a difference between Communism and Socialism and they have absolutely nothing in common with liberalism or liberal arts.
3) I don't have a liberal arts professor nor am I in college.
4) Public schools are a failure because they are run by bureaucrats, not educators. I spent several years in this system so I know this from experience.
5) Students don't take out loans for the betterment of themselves.  They do it in the name of "getting a higher paying job."  The education of the individual actually works out more for the betterment of the company, industry and society where the individual resides.  It sounds like an opinion, but it is in fact objective observation.
6) We live in a society which passes of wealth/net worth, business acumen, your job title, and social status as merit.  If you fall on hard times, bad luck is seen as bad character.
7) For a philosophy that history has apparently shown "doesn't work," a lot of time, effort, energy, labor, money and an equal measure of physical and emotional violence has been perpetrated with the expressed purpose of suppressing and sabotaging it.  I find it odd how, if something is that broken, why bother?

My issue with your take isn't that you believe Socialism or Communism doesn't work, it's that you've engaged in conjecture.  It's ok.  I'm not going to burn you for it; it's a very common mistake that all of us make at one time or another.  I'm actually more sympathetic to it than you may think because I used to say the same thing about these things before taking the time to actually learn about them.  Now all know why I don't like discussing politics; it's just too divisive these days. With that, I'm going to close by agreeing to disagree with you amicably and respectfully.  All my well wishes.  Be safe and take care.

KevinSnowpaw

1 year, 11 months ago

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