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Norithics

(Philosophy, Society) Is feminism clawing at greater questions?

Caution: Incredible, extreme blathering ahead.

After a jaunt through Youtube, viewing videos that are pro-feminist, anti-feminist, anti-reactionist, anti-misandrist (the list goes on), there is something that has begun to strike me:

Equality isn't sexy.

When feminism started up, it had a tough row to hoe in a big way. Women didn't have opportunities, they didn't have ownership. The law was against them, in word and spirit. Victories were hard-fought and celebrated greatly. The battles were easy to see, easy to fix: We want to vote, we want to own things, we want to be legally, on paper, able to have the same things. And since those days of the dark ages, we've come a long way- nobody could argue we haven't.  Of course, there are still some things that continue to be out and open, easy to write down. Reproductive rights are a big one, and still stir those old feelings. But a majority of the things that are complained about in this arena are more social than legal, more subtle than check-box-able.

Sexual objectification, economic opportunity, a huge list can be made of the requests and complaints of feminism in its most modest and extreme depths. But no major ballot initiatives exist for these issues. Why? Because they're hard. The problems are clear: being objectified, statistically not having access to as much success, what have you. But the solutions are vague and fleeting, because all of these things can be perpetrated unconsciously, or even unintentionally. For the most part, gone are the issues of men standing in the way of women, for which the solution is obvious: don't stand there, there's plenty of other places to stand. But now, these easily-quantifiable things are being replaced with issues dealing directly with the interaction of the two sexes.

The fact is, gender-based difference is ingrained in our culture and our species. For millennia, we raised little girls to call for help and eventually to manipulate men with beauty and psychology, and we raised little boys to understand that they are not worth anything unless they can put women and children before themselves, and be as ruthless and economically successful as possible. As a result, women are still objectified for their bodies, and men are still objectified for their accomplishments. But you can't check a box at the ballot for this- there's nothing you can champion that will fix this problem, so as a result everyone just sits around, frustrated by it. Asking to be able to do things on your own is an easy request to fulfill; modifying the instincts and behavior of people around you is much, much harder.

It is a microcosm, for sure, but I have plenty of female friends. Whenever I'm told of 'girl problems,' I weigh in with empathy because I understand intellectually what's involved, if not personally. But there's another side to it. I also explain to these friends of mine what I refer to as 'boy problems,' having to do with the hormones, physical issues and otherwise that can plague the male experience. The reactions I've gotten have been mixed: Some meet with disgust, others with an awkward but accepting politeness, still others with fascination- indeed, explaining these things casually but clinically is a rarity.

This is a small, very tiny morsel of what I consider to be true equality: people of either sex understanding each other's situations and, thusly equipped, being able to empathize, advise, and otherwise supplement their relationships both serious and not. Understanding the reasons why someone may act a certain way is the key to getting along with them; like a best friend that knows all of your personal quirks and peeves, the sexes work best when enlightened to each other's motivations, both conscious and not.

It's almost difficult to properly describe what I'm talking about, but there is an ongoing resistance in progressive circles toward the idea that there is a 'male brain' and a 'female brain' that work as different entities. This is fallacy, unfortunately, because instinct and thought pattern are what they are due to natural selection and, ironically, until we learn to accept that and explore and understand it fully, we're doomed to constantly make these same mistakes in regard to one another.

There's this scenario in my head, of a young man and young woman, sitting on a couch together. The young man is explaining how she's overthinking a personal drama that's occurred because the man in question doesn't put any priority on the things she thinks he does. The young woman follows up with a thorough, exacting explanation of why her compatriot was in her 'friend zone' from day one. Neither one of them is discouraged or offended.

That's what equality looks like to me.
Viewed: 382 times
Added: 6 years, 2 months ago
 
SenGrisane
6 years, 2 months ago
I remember a news report about a book declaring war on the color pink. Seeing as it destroys a girls ability to be anything else than a barbie doll. And I have looked myself. It is really hard to find typical girl stuff in other colors than variations of pink.

But besides that. Man and Woman are different. No matter how many people discuss about there will always be a difference. Physically and Mentally. So... embrace the difference and accept them is the goal ^^

Although I would wonder what would happen if every human on earth would suddenly be a hermaphrodite. Perfect gender equality. No more homosexuals, no more hetero's either.
Yilares
6 years, 2 months ago
For some reason, the entirely neutral people in an episode of Futurama come to mind.

"Tell my wife...hello."
SenGrisane
6 years, 2 months ago
Yeah. That one was fun. Alarm beige :D
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
you are amongst those very few humans having a rare gift:reading other people's ind..cos YOU JUST READ MINE

and i will reply to your inquiry with just three words:

Discover of Sperm function (ca 8-10000 years ago)
Inset of Private Property
Religion

these are my three answers tho this issue

10.000+ years ago this wont even have been CLOSE to be a propblem of that entity

and no...what you refer as "instinct" more and more times during your text progression i call as "twisted pseudo-instinctual behaviours DISTORTED by Patriarcal Human Socety"

WARS
TABOOS
RELIGIONS
SEXUAL DIFFERENCES

all made-up BY PURPOSE

gender DID KNOW each other PERFECTLY untill the Iron Age,without misconceptions or misunderstandings

read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas   for further explainations on teh matter

PRIVATE PROPERTY over-extremized into palces it shoouldt have had been put intop ,SEPARATED SEXES,ad sold thsi "separation" as "instinctual" wehre we infact were untill that ,oment THE SOLE SPECIES SHARING MUTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF BOTH SEXES FLAWLESSLY IN TEH WHOLE ANIMAL KINGDOM


i said my word

EDIT: i DO NOT BELIEVE Males and Females are DIfferent...Physically surely..NOT MENTALLY....Body cannot be changed,MIND CAN BE
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
I'm afraid that's just bold-faced denial. I remember reading her research, actually, at a very young age, and being quite enchanted with it. The problem with is that while she finds a lot of interesting things, she purposefully leaves out a lot in order to reach the conclusions that she wanted to. There were a lot of problems with her findings, and while they were integral to starting the search... they ultimately were very flawed in the end.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
that might be true surely ..as every scence-based study,i wont deny that....but the flawfulness of a scientifcal-led study wont disprove what might anyway be considered true..i admit my guilt in linkig it to you a it to rushedly,i always find mysefl into dire situations where i caught myself in trouble..but i also must keep my mind focused on teh fact that,Science and in particular Anthropology often acted pretty much simialr to Religion..a littel as:WHAT I SAID IS LAW,THEREFORE WHAT I FOUND OUT IS TRUE...forgetting to fix up a thing: teh WAY things are discovered....i will keep on believeing into this MAtriarcal conceived theory,despite the flaws that tehresearcher purposedly overlooked in her discovers,because at teh very bottom of the academically-led and forcedly driven-to-conclusions statistical researches,being FILLED with flaws and faults...teh REALITY always surfaces up with clarity,which is : there has BEEN a time where thsi today-troubles werent such,regardless of who discovered that using imporper ways..its a bt like drinking Water using a coconut instead of a Glass Tumbler: teh Water will be a little more torbid and untidy...but i wil always be drinikin...WATER

another add to this is,and to enforce my own thesis (totally detatched to the reseacher's one) if tehres one very basic flaw that cannot be fixed almost at all into Humanhood is what i call "prey-animal behaviour" once they discover a particular Social Order,regardless on how much it will eventually y become screwed up the will STICK TO IT PERMANENTLY because..eh..what can you do..."we are accustomead an its too ahrd to chance" and you knwo what? this is the ONLY POINT where ci an agree wit you completely

but gosh....i just figured out an inquiting thing....i would need a WHOLE WEBSITE to extensively draw an omnicomprensive anthropopbiological treaty of this
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
But... there's nothing to support any of that. Her entire conclusion was based on a series of logical fallacies, and nobody since has been able to reach the same conclusions she did, least of all the one you assert. Believe me, a matriarchal society has just as many problems inherent. =/
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
oh never had a doubt Mathiracal society would have problems....of coruse it woudl have...just NOT THIS KINDA problems we woudl have...if not else,at least we woudl ahev a "different way" to conceive life as..if nothing better.at least "different"

and once more...i also rememebr veyr well her research ad HUGE fallacies...id be quite dumb and insane to blank this off,but at he same time,just because NO ONE else ever proved otherwise ,or dared to ever go further what she discovered authorizes me to quit resarching things MYSELF ....also cos, i already refused to accept the role of the classic  "man who conquers and marries wives and win wars and gain money for family" cos this is,as you mentioned in teh text of your Journal JUST LABELS...adn you know what i woould do with a label? ILL SCRATCH IT OFF MY SKIN.....regardless if i will be sticking alone forever..better alone than labeled...and i KNOW ,at teh very bottom of that,caring not a single nothing about a researchers'studies at this point: WOMEN doesnt ned a MALE at ANY COST at their side ..i NEVER believed that...nor ever i will..regardless if the MAtriacal theory will be ever proven as a true or conversedly WOMENSA RE NOT HOLY NOT PURE: TEHY CAN FIGHT A BLOODY WAR IF TEHY WISH TO
OsirisPM
6 years, 2 months ago
We have the benefit of hindsight. I suspect most ancient cultures' treatment of women, men, the elderly, and/or children would disgust us, and I would recommend that in looking back, we see history as something that had to happen to get us where we are now, rather than as stuff that just happened, what the hell. Oh, and there were no Golden Ages, and we do not live in a Fallen Time.
We live in a time when we are fortunate (as in the past), to have the latest ideal, and one we are equipped to dream of.
I would like to think this ideal is that:
Freedom tempered with justice for all, with all further knowledge only for those that seek it.
Hopefully, society will catch up.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
cool story bro...i respect your point of view...you are optimist and that suffices...i wish you  a good life (im not sarcastic,i wish you such for good )
WesleyFoxx
6 years, 2 months ago
I am kind of amazed you even bothered to respond when they jumped straight into THE ALL CAPS/ROYAL CANTERLOT VOICE to emphasize their CONSPIRACY THEORIES like this was some sort of TEXT BASED ADVENTURE GAME
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
Well, I can't exactly throw stones when it comes to insane conspiracies, can I?
BunkerBear979
6 years, 2 months ago
I want true equality. I do. Where everyone can look at everyone else and see no flaws in them. It would be nice. For every man and woman to have the same chance at everything regardless of sex or color.

But I could use some help understanding something. The women in my life say that they want to be treated equal, yet they also claim that "Men should not hit Women because it's not right." Yet, that in itself is sexist. I believe that without a reason no one should hit another. Yet if a Woman or a man offends me and hurts my honor or my loved ones then I will lash out regardless of gender. In fact, this has happened before a while back. And I was marked as a "Woman Beater" Even though she laid the first blow.

Why is that? Is it just the Women I know that are like that, or does the gender as a whole tend to believe that they are weaker? And if that is true, why is that?

Please help me with this. It's been bugging me for some time now.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
what brings Women (especially in AMerica) behaving this way is the consantly perpetrated and seamlessly endless WITHDRAWAL of SELF-ESTEEM tehy had to whitstand in 8000 years now...try to picture that: hwo could i be open and friendly if somebody would NOT LETTING  ME UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS AGES AGO PURPOSEDLY letting myself wander in an OCEAN OF FEAR AND HATE ? thus leading Women accept the imposed vision of Weakness and frailness WHICH IS TOTALLY FALSE AND MADE-UP
and yes...i need Help on this too...my Life met a GIant Wall teh day i started concerning about this...AND IT WONT CHANGE UNTILL ILL BE AT PEACE OF MIND.....even if i dunno if ill meet such state on this Life
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
What you interpret as a conspiracy is actually a construct perpetuated by the disposability of men in reproductive roles. Women and children were inherently more valuable to protect, thus they were raised to call for help and allow men to do the most dangerous work. Men, in this same vent of natural selection, were made to understand that, being not nearly as valuable, they were to become strong and able, thus able to protect said women and children.

Of course modernly, we have no use for these roles, so that's why we should try to work around them. But ignoring them is done at your own peril, for reasons above.
BunkerBear979
6 years, 2 months ago
(Ignoring the strange use of capitalized words and lack of proper grammar almost everywhere in that statement)

I get what you mean. Yet the education system and the general moral system of America seems to push the idea that "Woman are weaker and men are stronger." Which is sexist no matter the wording. I believe that no one should harm another without a just reason. But if you look at an average school situation, say, two boys get into a fight. The principal is informed and they are suspended for 3 days or so depending on the seriousness of the altercation. The same incident occurs with girls, and the same thing occurs. Suspension for 3 days or so. Then a boy hits a girl for whatever reason. He is borderline expelled. I have seen this happen more than once. And it is not pretty or fair. I've gone through several schools in my lifetime and it all seems to be the same. The adults. The elders of our society. The ones who pass down knowledge and wisdom from generation to generation teach that the genders are different beyond a biological level. Women are to be viewed as weaker "Because they just are." This has been told to me by teachers and adults my entire life. As I near 21 I am still being told this as if it is a universal rule that I somehow can't understand. But the problem I have is that this is still a thing in today's day and age. This pity mongering and fear spreading. All it does is tell the men that they are stronger and the women that they are weaker. This is untrue, and flawed to the core.

This is a plague, pure and simple. It's a disease of flawed morals that, for some strange reason, is still able to pass in today's day and age. But I would like someone to try and explain that why, through all of the time we've had as a species, this is still a thing.
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
Actually, I did explain that, in the post precisely above yours. Women were conditioned to 'act' as the weaker sex, not because they were indeed demonstrably weaker, but because they were reproductively more valuable.
BunkerBear979
6 years, 2 months ago
You know, that makes sense. Although it is still a flawed thing that holds no use in today's society as you mentioned. Damn. I wish my therapist was as freaking smart as you. She is the kind of person who agrees that women should be treated better and that genders hold roles. Which is not the kind of therapist I need right now but it's the only my insurance covers :/
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
This idea, in addition to being destructive to women's self-esteem, is devastating to men. It gives us a completely erroneous sense of priorities, and as a result, we fall victim to the same sexist, obsolete expectations. It sucks for everyone involved.
BunkerBear979
6 years, 2 months ago
This is totally true. I mean, I'm a man. I know this because penis. But I have these insane expectations on my shoulders because society demands it. And if I don't fit that frame then I'm viewed as less of a man because of it, and it enrages me.

I have a massive sub streak in me and I prefer housework to work-work. I believe I would make a nice stay at home mate for whomever would take me. But as a man and someone who really just wants to be an equal, I am viewed as less because of my desires. I've even been called selfish as a result. I know that plenty of people don't like work-work, but I am a very clean person and view myself as a housewife type despite what society says. And I really loathe that more than anything. Equality in all forms is something I try and spread, and I am in no way shape or form a stupid person. But so many people of both genders view me as less for it and, you're right, it really sucks.
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
My boyfriend's the same way as you. And frankly, I'm happy to let him do those things while I'm out in the coal mines. I've never felt like I had the worse part of the deal, either- if I'm not there, bills don't get paid, but if he's not there, I have no motivation or support. We like where we are, but instincts come around to tell me I'm not bringing in enough bacon, and tell him that he should be doing more. It's just... not right.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
exactly...as i said before...labels are useless for both gender and especially in USA (and of course not only) where i dunno for which socially-based reason MAles must all be on duty for war and Work and females must all be Good Wives and frightened-to-death preys

and to once mroe quoting BunkerBear970 comment "She is the kind of person who agrees that women should be treated better and that genders hold roles" ist what i tried to state too...thats what i meant for "not teh weaker sex at all" again..im sorry if i sound so cocky on my answers...i seem i cannot convey correctly my own thoughts and instead of explaining my point of view quietly enough,i end up mesisng it all ...sorry..i didnt mean to sound like ass
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
"This is a plague, pure and simple. It's a disease of flawed morals that, for some strange reason, is still able to pass in today's day and age. But I would like someone to try and explain that why, through all of the time we've had as a species, this is still a thing."

i tried to void my own brain for a good half an hour giving my point of view....and i still keep on my point. PRIVATE PROPERTY INSET IS TEH ANSWER...if you dont believe me its okay..humans is an Hierarchical species:only if teh "master" speaks it is believed

but i also painstakingly do believe in the strenght of common people voice,as i am,as you and Norithics are too..thus this is my ,newly stated,answer : PRIVATE PROPERTY INSET,RELIGION BELIEFS,MILITARY BASED SOCIETY...

if thsi cannot be of help for youa s an answer...im deeply sorry..i did MORE THAN THE MOST i could
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
It's a double standard. It's not that confusing, life is full of them. The only way you can combat them is to try and make the people around you understand them. If they perpetrate that double standard, then it becomes obvious that they don't really value equality and there's not much to be gained.

That said, nothing good ever happens when these things come to blows. A very unfortunate return to a meaningless struggle.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
quoting your last line,its as i said in my other reply: HUMANS WANT TO STICK TO THIS BEHAVIOUR because tehy feel too hopeless into changing it,regardless if this change would be ACTUALLY POSSIBLE..(and i DO believe it is..i will NEVER believe teh opposite...youc an bet it i would galdly sell all of my happiness to stick to this,and OH YES..youc an say im quite strict-minded..well I AM...maybe i will melt down a bit one day....but this is my thesis) and you can say this kinda struggle would be meaningless...fine...its what Iunqisition thought over Galileo Galilei discovers...500 years before its theory would have been proven as TRUE

maybe in anotehr life,i will rejoyce enjopying a world where what today sounds IMPOSSIBLE...one day wont any lònger be...oh yes..IM THAT ROMANTIC...i care not a nibble about hwo petty  i coudl sound...
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
" BunkerBear979 wrote:
I want true equality. I do. Where everyone can look at everyone else and see no flaws in them. It would be nice. For every man and woman to have the same chance at everything regardless of sex or color.

But I could use some help understanding something. The women in my life say that they want to be treated equal, yet they also claim that "Men should not hit Women because it's not right." Yet, that in itself is sexist. I believe that without a reason no one should hit another. Yet if a Woman or a man offends me and hurts my honor or my loved ones then I will lash out regardless of gender. In fact, this has happened before a while back. And I was marked as a "Woman Beater" Even though she laid the first blow.

Why is that? Is it just the Women I know that are like that, or does the gender as a whole tend to believe that they are weaker? And if that is true, why is that?

Please help me with this. It's been bugging me for some time now.



Even without focusing on gender, it seems very common for people to focus on differences and consider them flaws. If you look at any elementary school, the kids tend to demonstrate this. Given how common this is, it's tempting to think this is inherent in human nature, but if you look at how exaggerated it can be in other cultures, one wonders if culture might play a big role in it.

As for the double-standard you mentioned about hitting someone, regardless of the reason or who instigated the conflict, it seems to me that the label of "woman beater" jumped of people's minds because they were not familiar with any alternative interpretation for that situation. Those people probably had never been introduced to the concept of someone being a "man beater", so for lack of an alternative interpretation, there was probably a tendency to gravitate toward the only familiar interpretation. I wonder if there are times where a person's "opinion" is simply them considering all of the interpretations they are familiar with and selecting the one that feels right. If there are few to choose from, there could be an unintentional bias.
Granted, I'm toying with a pretty abstract notion here, so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't believe that women on the whole are simply "like that" because it seems to be stronger in some places than others. Some of the things I read about in Japan make me frightened to ever visit there. In the very least, culture seems to have an influence.
Then again, I tend to have a distaste for thinking that all people are the same, even within a gender, so this might be a personal bias on my part.
Seolsaw
6 years, 2 months ago
One things Ive found interesting is this, according to this one bbc article I read awhile back, there is a place in the rural regions of India where the gender roles were reversed. It still is like that today. Being still a very undeveloped area you can see too how its like a bizzarro version of what the majority of our planet developed. Here is the story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16592633
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
i read that too,that article....in my own opinion that SHOULD BE quite close as the Humanity have been ages ago....and i repeat...researchers are ONLY such....they can only write articles and do...well..researches,,,or publish books....the only thing that i know its Reality is there....regardless of how pessimistic Humanhood can be....or accustomed to those as Norithics properly named them "double standards" i know im not teh only one knwoing this....
Zarpaulus
6 years, 2 months ago
Did you miss the whole thing about men in that society feeling "useless", and they've been raised in that kind of culture.

And I don't understand where you get the idea that humanity was like that, most tribal societies are either patriarchal or somewhat egalitarian.  Gorilla troops consist of a silverback and his harem, both species of chimpanzee establish separate hierarchies for males and females in their groups (bonobos are somewhat matriarchal but they seem to be more concerned with fucking than status), and orangutans are solitary.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
that makes sense ,speaking of Primates...except for ONE SINGLE SPECIES


PAN PANISCUS...more widely known as BONOBO....and i feel like i could even stop tipying here...if something inside my head wont force me underlinyin their main behavioural trait right here...they share a FEMALE-RULED SOCIETY

and you might reply..they are not more than an exception...for sure...but why should i consider a SINGLE exception IRRILEVANT?

i dont believe in statistics too much,they are useful to draw a general trait of a commonly-shared behaviour..but EXCEPTIONS put down the test seriously..and as you might guessed,im into that fully

oh and dont worry...i didnt miss teh point about males being treated as Useless....because is what im tryin to explain with my own words too..failing once again..but i dont care,evolution works for me as well,ill learn expressing my thoughts clearlier..soemday  ;)

besides the main  fact concenring me is that i'd be needing HALF AN INTERNET to epxlain why in my opinion HUmans once were differnt, and i have proves of this....but i fear i might be kicked off IB for flooding...which i dont wish to
Zarpaulus
6 years, 2 months ago
I mentioned bonobos, and said that they don't care that much about social hierarchy in comparison to the other species of chimpanzee and other primates.

Anthropology is too politicized, especially in the area of gender roles, to make any concrete statements about humanity.  But the fact remains that the vast majority of human societies, at all levels of technological development, are patriarchal to some extent.  With the most egalitarianism in industrialized western nations.

And is there a reason why you apparently can't spell?
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
"Anthropology is too politicized, especially in the area of gender roles, to make any concrete statements about humanity"

you matched the CENTER of the PROBLEM....they made us believe that this kinda social organization has always been THERE..where infact I KNOW ITS NOT..and the sad fact (sad for me) is im one of the VERY FEW people that knows this hasn't always been the case.and i don't certainly need a million dollars-payed researcher to know it .but because of an alterate perception of the "altruistical instinct" certainly derived from Apes,and EHAVILY misused into Human Race i cannot be allowed to say that.i will be labeled as a jerk ....which probably i'm already been..but the fact is clear....you involunteerlymatched what i thought as well..that is what you said: " the fact remains that the vast majority of human societies, at all levels of technological development, are patriarchal to some extent.  With the most egalitarianism in industrialized western nations" this is why I KNOW IT WASN'T ALWAYS BEEN SUCH A THING ...and i know i have no means to show it ,since i understand the skeptical attitude western people (included me and you) have towards this...but at he same time, im sure we cannot have been socially ruled this way since our first appearance on this Planet....after all, Human Race appearet 1.000.000 years ago roughly..HOW IS IT POSSIBLE WE NEVER CHANGED NOR FOR A SECOND OUR WAY TO CONCEIVE THE WORLD? think about it ,wouldn't we have had the chance to create things like Cars,Trains ,Towns and Social Rules as we know it THOUSANDS OF YEARS EARLIER than what we actually did,if that was the case? i repeat myself a little clearlier,all we know and we are brought to believe as always been there it has been actually brought there by PRIVATE PROPERTY discover...without this fundamental thing you could forget about Girlfriends,Boyfriends,friend-zones,abortions,condoms,viagra,weddings,religions,wars,towns,boundaries...and WRITTEN LANGUAGES!


speaking of written things....and to answer to yoru last question...i know i do a lotof typos and orthographic errors..sorry...its i often happen to type on pure darkness and never looking at the letters on my keyboard,and since im not motherlanguage and teh codepage of my KB is not in Am-English/English i very often caught myself mistipyin a gorup of letters or more...don't worry..im not dyslexic
Zarpaulus
6 years, 2 months ago
And what does the "altruistic instinct" (assuming that's what you meant) have to do with humanity possibly being matriarchal hundreds of thousands of years ago?  I've seen women acting just as selfish or altruistic as men.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
i must clarify this...of course ..what i meant for "altruistic" in HUmans is actually a  beahviour not exactly aiming to "help another fellow" but ,in this case,trappled and distorted into the Private Property discover,"feeling FORCED to subdue yoruself to your fellow" and not cause you feel a sense of bond,of togetherness..but just to avoid the sense of guilt in not "sacrifyin yourself for your pack/tribe"
the difference is VERY subtle but distinguishable,for what i had teh chance to observe: amongst socially-ruled animals,and especially "prey" animals (as Apes are,since..well..they are not exactly "predators" first off....keep in mind the distinction between "preys" and "predators" cos its FUNDAMENTAL to understand WHERE the Human Behaviour started from) in general,when a member of the group needs an help to do something,other members co-operate to help him,and vice versa,and fairly enough too..when a member of the same group threathens the inner-group soundness and safeness he got challenged and he can challenge back its oppositors....he might win,and the other elements of the pack/tribe will have him raised up in the hieracrhy..or he will be shooed away from its own group of Apes (in this case)...what happened in humans is something quite different,and private property discover of course did not do teh whole deal,mbut helpd ALOT into worsening the deal: HUmans began to take advantage DELIBERATEDLY of individuals considered weaker and/or non-useful  RFUSING to allow them fighting back fairly,and even in the case they would have a chance,teh group prevented them to express it, EACH TIME,they had  a chance to do so...il put down a clear and short example..in Politics,especially in western word,when an aspiring-to Politician wants to run for its place ,even if he woudl deserve to have a chance to climb up and win the ballots,somebody will always try to make him/her appear a sa Loser or as a non-belivable/dangerous individual EVEN BEFORE he/she could have had the time to go up at the White House and show everybody what he is about..a bit like what happened in Russia where secret servicies POISIONED Alexandr Litvinenkno a bunch ayears ago...(ugly example..but at least..its clear enough)

now you would ask me...why woudl teh fact Humans are "prey animals" as Apes with all of this? quite easy to answer: Preys in wildlife must ALWAYS deal with beings TENS of times stronger than them,and plus,being veyr often socially organized in huge packs/tribes (mice,rabbits,deers,apes,squirrels,) tehy woudl do jyst about EVERYTHING tehy could to be amongst the one surviving teh "predators attacks" ...a behaviour not easily found into Predators themselves,whose are,incidentally, FEWER,with a LONGER lifespan than preys,and environmentally WAY less active than preys (see the Lions who need to move around a lot solely when in need to follow groups of bovines or to defend their territory,) thus leading said kind animals to rise up their I.Q. to create any possible way to survive their own environent (seee some kinda birds  faking their death to deceive the predators) and with teh evolution,and the progressive morphing of human brain structures,Humans adapted these behaviours they learnt to their new bi-pedal society,at first not entirely applyin the whole hierarchical and socially competitive "prey-style" way of behaving (this is teh famous streak of time i was referring to as "Matriarchy") but then,after some ten-thousands of years ,once discovering teh Private Property (based itself onto teh discover of Male Sperm use,NOT KNOWN before) finally applyin this socio-competitional hierarchical pyramid compeltely..from this point to the Solomon Empire,the Ancient Greeks and teh AEgyptians and then the III word war-....the step is negligible


i hope i clarified something more this time....as you see,researchers are not always useful, on emust discover ist own species History BY ITS OWN
Zarpaulus
6 years, 2 months ago
One, most animal social groups consist of closely-related kin.

Two, it's perfectly possible for a species to be both a predator and prey.  Chimps (including bonobos) hunt, most monkeys eat insects, sometimes birds or lizards, even gorillas fish for termites.  And of course hunting, especially cooperatively, requires a lot more brainpower than running away.
threyon
6 years, 2 months ago
*sifts through blocks of text and comments* My head hurts... ;_;
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
TL;DR - I wish real life were a little more like Partners.
threyon
6 years, 2 months ago
All of my favorite stories and series are the ones I wish I could live in. Out of all them though, I'd like to live in yours the most. ^^

I wonder, does that make me an escapist or an idealist?
Milkie
6 years, 2 months ago
I like to think this can only ever be achieved by difference in generations.

I don't know if I am absolutely correct, but I can still boldly say that I think homosexuality is more accepted by my generation than the last. I like to think that's evidence of a possibility that if we start to think of things in a different way than our parents, things will slowly shift in that direction - though it may take generations to reach the conclusion you want. It's not just raising kids to think a certain way though...

The way we think is reflected in media, TV shows, video games... It's reflected in stories, novels, writing, even news articles. The more people absorb others' opinions, the more their own opinions will shape around them.

True equality may never be reached, because for some reason no matter what the social movement, someone is always wanting to play devil's advocate. Someone's thoughts will oppose another's, and like what I described above, those ideals will be as infectious as any, for better or for worse.

Seeing eye-to-eye universally on issues like that seems like a utopian dream... which sucks.
phyrexfirestorm
6 years, 2 months ago
I find it odd to now know you have the same mindset as me on this issue. Just as well, I share some similar opinions on thos who commented above, too.

Most noteably, the thing I have noticed (and please, ladies, dont hate me for this) is that women wanted to be treated as equally as men, while still being treated overall as women. That ccaan't happen. Think about it. they are damned near polar opposites, and to bring them together into being would create nothing. Or maybe it's anti-matter. I dunno. Regardless, they cannot coexist. You can, however, find a balance between them by dedicating time for each  side.
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
I think it can happen- it just depends on us developing a new understanding of what it means to be a 'man' or a 'woman.'
phyrexfirestorm
6 years, 2 months ago
thing is, though, we can't go to extremes. if it's taken to mean something like "the only appropriate time to be a man or woman is in the workplace (or at home)", then we will forget ourselves. Just the same, if we treat people specifically as a man or woman, we'll probably kill ourselves off.

There is a time and place for everything. I just pray we have the time left to place everyting.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
i quote yoru observation too..but the fact is: we might be HURRY developing such "new sense of being" simply because keeping on teh "sexes war" that long will contribute noteworthly getting our Race closer and closer to EXTINCTION ..im not joking
picture taht: a whoel species EXCTINCT because of Gender-based Riots! O_O

wouldnt be that somehow humiliating to be remembered for?
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
" phyrexfirestorm wrote:
... women wanted to be treated as equally as men, while still being treated overall as women.

That ccaan't happen. Think about it. they are damned near polar opposites, and to bring them together into being would create nothing. Or maybe it's anti-matter. I dunno. Regardless, they cannot coexist. You can, however, find a balance between them by dedicating time for each  side.



Perhaps you're confusing yourself a little with an abstract idea.
If two things are different, that doesn't necessarily make them opposites.

However, the problem you referred to is an interesting one.
Some women probably still struggle to see themselves differently than the traditional stereotypes.
The women who originally instigated the feminist movement were probably still struggling with familiar traditional expectations they held toward themselves.
They knew they should look at themselves differently, but it's hard to come up with a completely new alternative from scratch.

But something interesting has happened over the past few decades. People were introduced to the concept of "feminine" and "masculine" being individual styles rather than associating it with gender and cultural roles.
That seems to be the alternative that was needed.
These days, I see people who are all over the gender spectrum, physically and mentally, interacting as friends on very even ground.
Although it seems to be becoming more common in younger generations where I live, it's hasn't become ubiquitous in the culture yet.
phyrexfirestorm
6 years, 2 months ago
sadly, that hasnt apparently occured in my area. I know that there are men and women everywhere who treat each other as equals both in and out of the workplace, and there are no problems. for this, I would gladly applaud. However, what I am referring to is the type of person (can be either male or female, doesnt matter) who says they want to be treated equally, yet complain when it happens because they aren't treated as an individual.
Kinda hard to explain, but I hope you get what I mean.

Personally, I dont care what gender you are. You still get the same treatment, unless you prove to me that you either dont deserve what you are given.

Then again, maybe I'm a little insane when it comes to people in general, so if I make no sense, disregard me.
Rakaziel
6 years, 2 months ago
I sometimes wonder how far a tendency for double standards is an evoultionary trait, given that it also occurs among primates.
You try to break the rules to get advantages, untill you are at the top - then you enforce the rules to prevent anyone from getting an advantage over you, or losing any of the advantages you gained, even when they are based on rule-based inequality. Evolution to some degree favors moderate antisocial tendencies, "moderate" in this case meaning "not losing your position of power or your life in the process."
Which would mean that genetic engineering, on the scale of global eugenetics, could be necessary to truly get rid of this tendency and make sure it does not reemerge. On the other hand, a too peaceful humanity would be easy prey to any alien spacies that may have an interest in colonizing us - meaning we have to keep some of our aggression, just in case. On a smaller scale the aliens in the equation would be the remaining unmodified humans.

I guess it is possible in three hundred to five hundred years, if the course of history favors this direction, given that it would require very advanced genome assembly technology and a place where genetic modification of humans and cloning is legal. Or when we colonize other planets.

Asexual reproduction via cloning could to some degree solve the gender equality issues within a society by creating a mono-gendered society (Sexual orientation is, theorectically, the smallest obstacle, given that it is determined by something and thus can be engineered in new clones once we find out what determines it). But then again, with the human tendency to concoct the weirdest and most unfavorable prejustices against members of other groups, an in fact only hold together as a group with something or someone to fight against (which also why team sports are so popular, they are the peaceful version thereof), it would create even greater problems in the long run.

Which means that, all things considered, yes, your definition of true equality is the one most worth following.
Mitsozuka
6 years, 2 months ago
I love the way you're thinking... but sadly I have the funniest feeling that in no way would such equal terms be possible en masse in our lifetime.
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
You don't have to look for it to be world-wide.
If it exists where you live, that's a start.
darkstormwatch
6 years, 2 months ago
I had done some research a while back out of boredom and curiosity and through it saw a trend. Back in the old, old days it was a needed thing of girls learning things of preparing food and tending wounds. Not because it was directly required of them but because it was a maternal instinct of "I must tend your needs because I care for you" it is still evident in today with most families. I think some ladies would agree with that while others will just call it blind and that could be chalked up to the way they were raised but those ladies that have had children. I think would agree there is a need in there that is deep based to protect and nurture. Men face it a bit more sternly of to nurture and protect the family means to face and carry the hardships directly. Go hunt so the ladies may care for those in need, be ready to fight to keep other males from taking or harming the families under their care.

that was before we stopped being nomads, and started closing our minds to wonders of lands and fears of the things we didn't know. Then we settled and started harvesting the land itself and that same pattern slowly became locked in of ladies hide in the house doing "lady" chores and men worked the fields. It became more extreme as Religious ideals and locked in social ideals formed becoming Chivalry.

in today's world Chivalry is accused of being Sexist not as being Protective or Respectable or even of being a form of idolizing a lady for her existence being worth more then that man could believe he could ever provide. In today's world Women want to carry the perceived gold trophy of being tough and strong not realizing that in the old days before even chivalry they were far tougher then men for the shear fact that they were the last line of protection to the old and the young if the men were ever bested or not fast enough to be there and protect.

Sorry for my little meandering thought line there and ignore it if it pisses ya off. It is just my little path to understanding where things started and how they twisted around.
DOtter
6 years, 2 months ago
My goodness! You've stirred up quite a discussion, Norry. It seems you've touched on something we all find important. (I'll have to come back later and read through more of the comments.)

As for my own opinion, I agree that the matters left to be resolved are complex. I can think of two things that would help. First, it would be good to have as thorough as possible an understanding of the differences between how women and men think and how much of it is "nature" as opposed to "nurture." Further, this should be taught in school as a mandatory course so that everybody knows it. Second, a much greater emphasis on empathy in society would be a good idea. Given these two things, both men and women would understand each other pretty well and be more predisposed in any given encounter to care about them. How does that sound?
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
That actually sounds quite reasonable! I'd go for that.
DOtter
6 years, 2 months ago
You flatter me. Usually you give an insightful analysis of what's right and wrong about a response. Your outright agreement is rare!

On further consideration, however, it would also be useful to have and to teach a good deal more about what makes us individuals and to promote that, too. We don't want to be defined by gender alone, after all.

Arm chair social engineering is fun!
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
I really think that's part and parcel of the education. Suggestions rather than commands. Instead of insisting people act a certain way, it's something to use to figure out why someone's acting a certain way.
DOtter
6 years, 2 months ago
I believe the law works properly in that respect; whatever is not specifically prohibited is therefore allowed. Minimal prohibition is best, of course, while reason and persuasion is better still. Education for children should start with the skills people will need all their lives to learn more, then give them the knowledge they'll need to thrive in the society we want to build for them, or whatever they make of it after we've done. Education should continue all one's life, though, in one way or another.
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
My dad had in interesting saying: "Learn how to learn."
Eyehazcookie
6 years, 2 months ago
Sigh......people always take social issues further then they should be taken. Whether it be sexism, racism, or any kind of issue with any kind of discrimination, it turns into a fight of double standards and the "discriminated" party trying to gain more advantages more than trying to be equal. Woman wanting to be treated exactly the same when it comes to the paycheck but getting coworkers fired at any sexual jokes heard at the workplace. Not saying we should be played less for the same job but when it comes down to the social matters we can't keep those other advantages that makes it unfair. Wish people weren't so uptight =.=

Double standards bother me when it comes to "equality"
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
One of the tricky things I've noticed about feminism is that it's not all one thing.
Much to my own emotional detriment, it took me many years to realize this.
There are multiple feminist viewpoints.
This is natural because there are multiple people involved.

I remember reading about an extreme feminist movement in the 80's where the women in it referred to themselves as wymen, and they were trying to completely replace traditional the concept of a female with an alternative, even to the point of encouraging people to use alternative words in the English language to avoid ones associated with traditional concepts of "female". The problem was that this particular group also tended to be very violent and extreme.
They didn't end up representing feminism overall because the majority of feminists did not agree with their extreme views.
Just because different viewpoints refer to themselves with the same word, doesn't mean they are the same.
Ultimately, individual people have individual viewpoints.
Lamia
6 years, 2 months ago
a lot of people forget that objectively, the only difference between males and females is the biology, everything else including methods of thinking is a result of the evolution of society

it's just an unfortunate fact

I dunno if that's actually relevant to the conversation but it made me remember it
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
This is partially true, but after a point, the behavior affects the biology affects the behavior. What's considered immediately attractive, hormonal drive and consequence, etc. can all be affected by psychology and somebody's formative experience, but it's also nudged and guided by thousands of years of actual evolution. That's the part I'm saying we ignore at our own peril.

We have the capacity to overcome our baser natures by the fact of our intellect, which makes us different from every other animal, but the problem inherent in this is that we take this to mean that we automatically do so, when in fact it takes a conscious effort. Much like nature is responsible for our worst traits (like greed for example), each sex has very slightly different grooves cut into the way they reach conclusions that affects their way of thinking. There's more than plenty of science that explains an aggregate difference of skills in various subjects by way of physical brain makeup.

So, there is a difference, and you're right that it's biological, but the physical and the mental are inexorably tied, and it's important I think that we recognize that without this knee-jerk fear that accepting this will cause inequality. Indeed, equality can't progress until we do accept its presence.
CCubed
6 years, 2 months ago
There's a point to be made here, but I can't follow what the journal is trying to say. Can anyone clarify, I'm having trouble following along.
Norithics
6 years, 2 months ago
In a nutshell, the 'easy fixes' are pretty much over for gender inequality- legal rights and the like. To make any further progress will require much more subtle, personal development as people.
shadycat
6 years, 2 months ago
Excellent essay. My feeling is that, while progress may be made, men and women will never be completely on the same page. Men and women ARE different and our hardwired sexual drivers and desired sexual outcomes are often at cross purposes.
yiharbin
6 years, 2 months ago
feminists are no longer really fighting for equal rights in the same regard they once were.... many of the movements and groups of people that faught for equality dont stop once it is to a point where minimal progress can be made if any..... modern feminists are more jaded and sexist women.... well... at least the majority i have personally encountered or heard of..... the war is over on the physical grounds. All that is left is human psychology and the natural mind which cant just simply be taken or voted on or whatever..... all the grounds that could be won have been one, as far as feminism goes.

honistly, I do not think full equality can exist, because before time was time, the role of the male was to protect the females, the children and the wellness of the group, as well as hold and control the power... the role of the female has been to take care of the young for the most part.... not even looking at that, people tend not to see completely eye to eye on things, and the male and female minds are wired completely differently... hell, males and females are practivally different species, we dont even see the same light spectrum (one gender sees more infra red light, whilst the other sees more ultraviolet light. I do not recall which is which though). Genders are designed completely different, but not all people accept that and push one to be more like the other........
I lost my train of thaught XD I think I was going somewhere with that, but I dont remember where
XD
sorry
Lost
6 years, 2 months ago
I don't know where to start on this. My sister, in a twist of brilliant and horrible irony, is a feminist who has a very sensitive berserk button about traditional gender roles and the "Disney Princess" stereotype, similar to some of my views, but she's a mom now, so that's probably why it's less subtle for her.

I've had issues with my own gender my whole life. I've always been a very cerebral person, interested in information, knowledge, books, but that was marred by a very conservative environment, where if you didn't meet a certain macho man criteria (get in fights, fix a tractor, drink beer, etc.) you were a failure of a man.

I get what you're trying to say; I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. I've been in my own personal bubble about the battle of the sexes, so to speak. Because I've always been the cerebral person, I've always been able to talk with women about their problems, to the point I don't really understand how one can't. And then I remember the apes that I grew up around and wonder how one can have such a primitive, ignorant perspective.

That's ultimately what we're fighting against. We're fighting against people's way of thinking, on both a macro (cultural) and micro (individual) level, and both can be and are reinforced/rebuilt by one another.
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
Considering the environment you grew up in, perhaps your sister developed an emotional need to resist traditional stereotypes.

I myself have long had an irrational tendency to distrust and reject ideas that suggest that men and women are fundamentally different. In my case, it stems from an early rejection that I never completely got over, and any idea that feels like it allows the notion that women can never understand or genuinely like men bothers me deeply. I want to believe we're the same because the alternative enables a very discouraging and heart-breaking viewpoint for me. (Granted, it also didn't help that I later confused the more extreme side of feminism with feminism in general.) Fortunately, I'm well aware of my bias and how it works.
Lost
6 years, 2 months ago
No, she told me that when she was a kid, her mom (she's a half-sister) tried to get her to be into the things all the other girls were into so she wouldn't be ostracized at school. Like me, she was interested in things you wouldn't normally associate with teens and adolescents, like politics and book learnin', but she delved slightly into the stereotype pool to appease her mom. Now that she is a mom, she's trying to let her kids decide what they're interested in, and not choose for them because the culture dictates that her daughter should be playing with Barbie dolls or her son should be interested in dinosaurs or whatever boys are interested in. Their interests crisscross, though, so now they ritualistically sacrifice Barbie dolls to dinosaurs.
Eviscerator
6 years, 2 months ago
..

Wow. I think I'm fucked in the head. To me, equality looks like herms.  Herms everywhere x.x  THE RABBITS. AUGHDAMNITKILLWITHFIRE.
LoZeed
6 years, 2 months ago
Yet another reason aliens could kick our asses.
You can go around treating the opposing genders as equal but when it comes down to it,
their vastly different on even the most baisc terms, what we really need is tolerance and respect for eachother.
Two halfs of the same whole thats how we were created one cannot exist without the other nor is one superior.
Humans are just so ignorant when comes to these things, most of the time they don't hear themselves talk.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
this sounds liek an endlessly unbreakable closed circle: despite teh fact Humanhood has teh Reality of teh Things in front tehir friggin eyes..they will keep them SHUT CLOSED...
you,we all are arguing about "differnt genders,different ethics ,but at the same time we demand respect,but at the same time we demand freedim,but at the same friggin time we demand to be loved monogamically,but at teh same time we want to shag with the whole world,but at he same tim...."

just what the hell? is it thathard to comprehend we are just a giant huge mass of EGOCENTRICAL MONKEYS AND THATS THAT? (with many excuses to Monkeys..its not their fault at all)
LoZeed
6 years, 2 months ago
The human race so advanced yet so stupid, it's funny like that.
AndyBanez
6 years, 2 months ago
yeah it might be funny..ina  way, i dont deny this..at all

the only thing is,personally (i cannot argue on anybody else than me) i dont exactly like those claiming to be "advanced" yet ending acting like JERKS as much as DESTROYING their own world..this is not "advanced" for me ..its INSANITY
you can say i have no sense of humour....too bad for me: i will live a sad life...
LoZeed
6 years, 2 months ago
Just relax it's not like you have to care bout this stuff,
I'm saying I personally don't give a crap cause none of it's gonna change enough to be noticed.
All the same I'd prefer not to have this kind of stuff shoved down my throat everyday.
Anyways have a nice whatever holiday this is.
(i dont have better things to do but id rather sleep than be part of something redundant)
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
" LoZeed wrote:
Yet another reason aliens could kick our asses.
You can go around treating the opposing genders as equal but when it comes down to it,
their vastly different on even the most baisc terms, what we really need is tolerance and respect for eachother.
Two halfs of the same whole thats how we were created one cannot exist without the other nor is one superior.
Humans are just so ignorant when comes to these things, most of the time they don't hear themselves talk.


In my opinion, even if it turns out that women and men are only physically different, it wouldn't matter.
Considering that individual people are different from one another, it makes sense to focus on tolerance and respect.
After all, we deal with on another on an individual level.
LoZeed
6 years, 2 months ago
The mighty T&R once again proves that most petty problems can be solved by talking like ordinary people.
But the world is still full of people with their fingers in their ears.
Korokage
6 years, 2 months ago
Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssss. All of this. Some days I can't help but think that we'd be better off if we took all the assholes, put them on a rocket, and sent them to their own sexist/racist/whathaveyou-ist space colony where we don't have to put up with their shit and we can have ALL the utopias. Seriously. By the way, have you ever watched Laci Green's videos? She's pretty cool IMO.
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
This is unrelated, but I noticed something kind of funny.
Your response would actually work no matter what the subject of conversation was.
voreking100
6 years, 2 months ago
Similar sort of thing with people with different skin (refuse to use the word race, there is only one race, the human race, people just have different skin tones depending on their environment). I think it is stupid when people insult others or treat others unfairly because the colour of their skin. It's like getting angry at someone because they are covered with blue paint, makes no sense at all. just wish there was a way for everyone to loose the pigment in their skin so that we were all grey, then no one would be able to say anything about anyone else.

If people want true equality then EVERYTHING has to be the same. same jobs, same money, same clothes, same car, same house, same hair, everything... I'd just like to see people open their eyes for once and see that there are no races, just people, see the world in greyscale instead of black and white.
DOtter
6 years, 2 months ago
" voreking100 wrote:
...I just wish there was a way for everyone to loose the pigment in their skin so that we were all grey, then no one would be able to say anything about anyone else...


Every human has the same genes that make black people black, it's just not expressed as strongly in other people. If the ozone layer cannot be repaired and the amount of ultraviolet light from the sun that reaches us remains high, within a thousand years or so we'll all be black. Would you settle for that?
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
I remember hearing that most of the people in the world actually are black.
So it's kind of ironic that this country has things reversed and discriminates against what is, worldwide, the majority.
DOtter
6 years, 2 months ago
Seriously??? That's amazing! According to Yahoo answers though, Asians are the majority.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110727100156AA8YxOa
It's still interesting though, that white skinned people are in the minority.
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
See my comment above.
There's actually an interesting irony about this issue.
humbird0
6 years, 2 months ago
Is seems like the most important parts of feminism were a success.
I rarely ever see anyone my own age who looks down on women, and in younger generations, even less-so.
And people being different isn't really the issue, as long as there's respect and understanding, so I think you're right about that being more important.

The problem of how genders are portrayed is not really an individual one. I hate to blame mass media for people's problems. But the mental associations seem to mostly come from there. Interestingly enough, it seems like the internet has been fracturing it, so that problem might gradually fade too.
I was watching a Penn & Teller episode about Cheerleaders and how that industry is kind of a corporate racket. But at one point, it mentioned something interesting: Even though girls are mostly allowed to play the same sports as boys, some girls simply prefer feminine things. So if you think about it as a style, it makes more sense. I happen to know a man who prefers feminine things, more-so than most women I know, and he's completely straight, no question about it. It's a preference.
So the the only issue seems to be the remaining cultural tendency to associate styles with genders, and I think even that seems to be gradually fading.
I'd say that feminism has succeeded overall.
talinuva
6 years, 2 months ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhB0IM0P3GI&feature...

Probably, nobody knows more about the difference between us than a marriage motivational speaker.
db6
db6
6 years, 2 months ago
You're so smart and thoughtful, I just want to hug you!
kemosabe
6 years, 2 months ago
I have a question.  How do I know if I have sought to attain the masculine traits because that was my personal, individual desire, or if it was because of society/nature/nurture/ spahgetti monster in the sky?
LabrnMystic
6 years, 2 months ago
Has no one seen a scyfy show? Gender neutral, true equality is boring. You can't have both sides of the coin. Complaing people are staring, but then complaing when a friend goes out of his way to not look.
Shokuji
6 years, 2 months ago
An interesting read. I think lots would be gained by everyone in many ways if we tried to understand each other better. This is beyond gender, it's culture as well. Lots of traditions are kept alive that really need to die, people shouldn't just accept how things are, they should study things for themselves and be able to think on their own about not only this issue but other issues like it. All too often we're told what to think/feel by society, by religion, by parents, by peers, etc. Sometimes they're 'good' things, other times 'bad'.. but even that's subjective and sometimes hard to argue against/for. Anyways, thanks for the interesting journal, and sorry for my rambling. ^^;
kingmaster1
6 years, 2 months ago
I feel so dumb when I read these! :(

I can totally see your point and of course compare it to the ones in the comments section (any that are worth reading of course, no offense to anyone)

But half the time I have to look up some words and a lot of the point just so it works in my little mind :P

You're awesome nori, in art and mind, and I greatly respect these things :) (not trying to suck up, just being honest)
AlexReynard
5 years, 11 months ago
>For millennia, we raised little girls to call for help and eventually to manipulate men with beauty and psychology, and we raised little boys to understand that they are not worth anything unless they can put women and children before themselves, and be as ruthless and economically successful as possible. As a result, women are still objectified for their bodies, and men are still objectified for their accomplishments.

Wowsers. That's bracingly true and lusciously concise. A perfect little summation of the balance in gender roles. If pop culture reduces women to just a pair of tits, men are reduced to just their wallets. ;)

Also, if you haven't already seen Hjernevask, I cannot recommend it more highly. The Wikipedia article has links to every episode. It's a documentary miniseries about the nature vs. nurture debate. What keeps popping up is a resistance in some scientists to believe in actual science over PC morality. The idea that there are biological differences between humans is just anathema to them; it's all caused by culture 'forcing' roles onto us. Some of the research they talk about in this series, especially in regards to gender roles, just blew my mind.

(Amusingly enough, over in Norway it's considered PC to think that being gay is a choice!)
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