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Norithics

Nobody can draw, anymore?

As you may know, I'm keen on observing phenomena that occur within the fanbases of various entertainment media. One thing that I'm noticing lately is that the vocal portions of the comic book fanbase are feeling at ease with the indictment that artists don't know how to draw women. Or men. Or anything! But especially women. Here's just one example.

Now, I would like to point out that I saw this image and thought, "Wow, that's beautifully drawn!" But a cynical part of me knew, knew that the second the poster included the words "knows how to draw" in the title, it would be irresistible to the trope-savvy cynics. On the page, you can see that nearly every comment is about how "women don't look like that" and "bodies don't work that way."

I'm sorry but, I've seen this movie. You can take any piece of artwork and argue that it doesn't realistically depict something through proportions, anatomy, perspective, blah blah blah, until the poor artist in question would be backed up against the wall, making nothing but referenced life drawings... which nobody gives a shit about, because those aren't interesting, even to other artists. Life drawings, 99% of the time are used for two things: drawing someone who wants to be drawn, or as a tool to increase your skill in rendering those things in general. But nobody would pick up a fucking comic book that used life drawing as its medium, because one, it would be $15 a book and come out twice a year, and two, it would look bland and unengaging to most people.

Being that translating things photographically is both tiresome and ridiculous now that we have cameras, there's this thing that artists use to translate real or at least real-inspired characters and objects onto paper: it's called a style. You can argue up and down that somebody could be better at anatomy or proportions or whatever you like, but when it comes right down to it, anything interesting will be inaccurate. It just will. That's caracature. That's style. And I'm tired of laymen demanding that all artists reach some unknown nebulous goal of realistic perfection, at which point those people will stop caring about said artist's work in any way. That's enough. Stop it. That artist does know how to draw, and very damn well. Stop saying they don't, that's privileged fan elitism to its highest, most arrogant degree.
Viewed: 458 times
Added: 6 years, 6 months ago
 
MofetaFromBklyn
6 years, 6 months ago
This journal has really caught my attention after reading. The last part of it is pretty true.
joykill
6 years, 6 months ago
Agreed 100%
JapVixen
6 years, 6 months ago
You're right with that conclusion.  
KNIFE
6 years, 6 months ago
Absolutely agree.
ATmongoose
6 years, 6 months ago
Yeah some people fail to realize that the works artists draw are from their own ideas and interpretations. Either that or they take enjoyment from picking on people.
Zeikcied
6 years, 6 months ago
I think comic book artists get a bad rep.  But not all of them are innocent.  I've seen plenty of examples of horrible drawing done by this one artist whose name I forget.  I think Liefeld or something.  The guy does horrible things to the human body, especially relating to perspective.

However, there are artists who do things right.  Yeah, Batgirl's midsection does look a little too small, but it's not that big of a deal.  It's not too bad.  It looks quite good if you ignore that part.  Doesn't mean this guy can't draw women.  She still looks like a human being and it's not something that's blatantly obvious at first glance.  Once you start studying a drawing looking for mistakes, you're just trying to find a reason to complain for the sake of complaining.

So, yeah, I agree with you.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
A lot has been made of Lefield's artistic abilities or lack thereof. But the fact is, he just gets flak because his inadequacies are easily categorized. Every artist has their downside- lack of variety in body types, random anatomical anomaly, a problem with consistency- but it's all a matter of what you want to look good. Lefield got where he is because he draws huge dudes with lots of belty future-guns, and he draws it well enough that as kids enough of us looked at it and went, "COOL." Now that his heyday is done, it's easy to think he never had a place, but he did. People wanted ugly, and he drew ugly. It may be true that he's unable to draw anything else, but even then I wouldn't say "He can't draw."
Eviscerator
6 years, 6 months ago
" random anatomical anomaly
  I think it's safe to say most of us adore your anomalous anatomies. Hehehehe.
samsondrave
6 years, 6 months ago
Not really.  Nori seems to draw the same character over and over again: the strong, independent whore.  On top of that, his characters all seem very stiff, his expressions are rather limited, backgrounds are often nonexistent, and since I really don't have a thing for women whose tits look like they might tear right off their chests if they bounced too high I have to say that overall most of his drawings are just pretty damned boring to look at.  Gwen's really the only thing that keeps me here.
threyon
6 years, 6 months ago
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
I believe he made that caveat when he said "Most of us?"

Unless you somehow believe you represent a majority all by yourself!

EDIT: Also, I read your post back in Hazama's voice, and it was hilarious.
Eviscerator
6 years, 6 months ago
Man, I did not see all this coming, I was just trying to be punny.

That said, it's quite possible for a single person to consitute a majority! One just needs to measure by either ego or mass in some cases.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
Also, to be clear, I wish that I could get this kind of feedback more often. Subject matter preferences is whatever, I'm gonna draw what I want and I've never apologized for that. But the thing about technical particulars I could work on being put into concrete terms is nice once in a while. I just wish it didn't require someone who hates what I do to come and tell me about it. It seems like the only time I get in-depth constructive criticism is when it comes from self-professed trolls and people who could largely take or leave the majority of my work. It's almost frustrating, actually, because I never get a chance to really know what I honestly need to work on versus the cloud of boundless doubt that is personal paranoia.
samsondrave
6 years, 6 months ago
I was more implying that I was an exception, not a majority.  Also, I wouldn't necessarily say that I hate your works.  It's pretty damned hard to hate something that doesn't offend you.  It's just that, well, I'm not a big-boobie kind of guy, or a big-bottom one, or a big dick one, etc etc.  So I really could take or leave most of your works.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
You threw me off with "Not really," then, because that implies that most people do mind the things you listed, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case- otherwise, why would they watch me?

But on that note, I don't understand why you wouldn't just take me off your watch list and periodically search for dr_gwen_mason. I always tag my pictures, I don't draw loli particularly well, and I flood this place with other stuff, so... yeah. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, I have to say, the particularly chesty woman is a favorite of mine, but to say that Gwen's the only exception is kinda... I mean, I draw a good number of other things. Or does it just not count if it's not porn? I'm guessing that's it.
Zeikcied
6 years, 6 months ago
I'm not a fan of huge breasts, huge butts, or huge penises, either.  My favourite stuff of yours has been Dr. Gwen, the raccoon boy with his family (big brother, mother, and father), and Stacy and Jake with their mom.  The last two were things I suggested you do more of a while back.  I'd love to see more of them.  (With Stacy and Jake, I love the idea of kids watching their parents have sex.)

Anyway, I watch you because there's occasionally things that I really like, even though I may not enjoy the majority of what you draw.  I don't hate it, nor do I blame you for it, because it's ultimately your trademark.  I just keep quiet and hope that I see something that I like.  As an aside, I think you do a great job with loli and shota. :)
GunslingerDragon
6 years, 6 months ago
I enjoy your work enough that critique is not typically the first things that springs to mind, but if you'd like some critical feedback, ask and you shall receive. I have years of practice providing polite, professional, constructive criticism, and I try to provide some whenever I see an artist ask for it.
EroKord
6 years, 6 months ago
I saw the title and thought I'd be mad.
I saw the link and thought "yep, I'm gonna be mad"
Then I read the journal and I was like FUCK yeah! so tired or people whining about proportions and how "real" women don't look a certain way.

When they AREN'T real women, and that's the point. Sorry 3D ladies, 9/10 times you're going to lose to sexy 2D ladies. No need to get your panties in a twist. We don't complain (too much) about your obsession wish super idealized bishies.
GrayscaleRain
6 years, 6 months ago
Frankly it's my art, and I can draw what I want, how I want.
bloodfx
6 years, 6 months ago
PREACH!!! erm... i mean well said, ol' chap! I got great advice once and it went something like this: "Learn to draw the human body, learn how it works and it's intricacies... Then you can draw it anyway you want!" I'm all for ppl that can draw realistically but the work does get boring and eventually you end up twisting those basics into what Nori refers to as a style! Diversity my friends, it's fun and it truly is the spice of life, it would truly be boring if everyone drew the same! =D
DevasiaMentality
6 years, 6 months ago
You sir have managed to make applaud you once again. This hit's home with me, especially since I'm a mecha fan, and some times when people talk about Transformers and Gundams there are those that have issues with either scale or proportions of certain robots, sometimes inciting they're not realistic, and it just makes me wanna kick puppies. Perfectly human proportions is for real life people, not robots and illustrations!
RenAndFriends
6 years, 6 months ago
I always love reading these journals, hehe ;) You have a way with words
purplecat
6 years, 6 months ago
This made me think about every single entry artclass I've taken (one highschool, one community college, and two art colleges) and all of them are completely focused on drawing real things. I can see how it can be like a building block for some people, but I always hated it. I don't want to be a camera, I want to draw with creativity, and that's probably the mindset of why I never passed any of those classes. That might sound pretty bad, but still, I'm interested in fictional mediums because it breaks away from reality, not replicates it.

Also it does kinda piss me off seeing people say someone's art sucks when it's just because of a reason of personal preference. There's a lot I don't like but I just say I don't like it, I'm willing to admit it can be pretty good even if I never ever wanted to be exposed to it myself.
KitE5
6 years, 6 months ago
X3 for the first bit of this journal I was thinking of some smartass comment about art is there because photos are boring, since I thought you were agreeing with those people on that picture. Until I got to the end.

No true point in drawing absolute photo-realism, when there are cameras about. Art is simply the aesthetic pleasure of enhancing a point of interest. People wouldn't really like those DC comics very much if they were just photos taken of people posing for each frame.
Luvythicus
6 years, 6 months ago
I've had people nag about my style. Fuck that shit, I don't draw realism!

Great journal! I just keep doing what I do.
Arkanos
6 years, 6 months ago
I thought this was gonna be a rant on unrealistic art, but I was pleasantly surprised by it being the opposite. I was mildly surprised to find that I agree whole-heartedly, as well.
SenGrisane
6 years, 6 months ago
I demand you stop drawing those gorgeous boobies of yours :P
And no unrealistically large boners too. ^^
LoZeed
6 years, 6 months ago
You sir are the Leifield antidote, making a good point and all that.
Drbigt
6 years, 6 months ago
Wait a second, I looked at that pic and it looked just fine. Maybe these people who complain haven't been near enough women?
ChaosSabre
6 years, 6 months ago
Oh it's just the comic book fans. If the picture in question has some sexualized form they'll bitch about it.
But that there is ok. I've seen waaaaaaaay worse comic book styles.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
That's so weird to me. I'd think they'd be used to it by now, being that the medium's been like this, oh, forever?
ChaosSabre
6 years, 6 months ago
Yeah it has been. Females always were wearing those tight outfits and things like that. So of course artist tried to make them look sexy.
EtherSaga
6 years, 6 months ago
I agree with you, but not 100%

If the artist intentionally does it wrong as a sense of style, such as caricatures, or anthromorphic creatures or whatever, then its okay. But if the artist is generally mal-practiced in anatomy, perspective or whatever, then the artist is stifling themselves unknowingly.

I love style, one can get anything and everything from it. But I don't cloak myself in it, giving myself a false sense of security. If I've done something wrong, unintentionally, and someone points it out, I learn from my mistakes.

So I guess, basically people need to realize that it isn't about style or realism that is the problem, but telling the difference between fantasy and reality. I'm pretty sure the artist of that example you gave knows that women don't look like that, but he chose not to follow it, making it his style.

Sorry if I'm rambling.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
Nor do I! That wasn't the point of the journal at all. Style can be used as a way of masking inadequate passion for improvement, but I'm referring to the inverse- just ignoring that style is even a thing, to the point where anything not real is dumb or some... stupid shit like that. It's the fan inversion of the "It's just my style, shut up!" thing, where they refuse to even acknowledge reality.
EtherSaga
6 years, 6 months ago
I see. That's understandable, coming from an artists point of view.

So you're basically venting and asking the question 'why won't they understand?'

Pretty much because not everyone else thinks or sees things the way you do. But I'm sure you already know that. It's always good to vent.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
I know that my opinion is mine and not everyone can see eye to eye with me, and further that art is completely subjective. But... I mean, I look at that drawing and I think, I would kill to be able to just draw like that, no problem. Then some random person comes up and says, "Well they don't know how to draw." I can't help but just be flabbergasted. Like, really? Fuckin'... seriously? "I wish they'd portray women more realistically" is valid. "I think that the suit's a little bit too tight on her" is valid. Even "I think her proportions are off" is valid. But just straight up "No, he can't draw women." I can't. I just can't ever see that as anything but the intentional braying of a stupid, stupid ass.
EtherSaga
6 years, 6 months ago
Aye, I agree with that much as well. That sort of blind bigotry is repulsive. But more than likely 'Trollers gonna troll'.
Incaros
6 years, 6 months ago
That's the problem with a large number of people. You can give them EXACTLY what they want, and they will STILL find something to complain about. I think they just mention "that isn't how bodies work" thing so they can make themselves look smarter. Or at least so they can think they make themselves look smarter.
DrakeGrey
6 years, 6 months ago
Amen to that bruv' Pv^
VarioLestra
6 years, 6 months ago
heh. thankfully, MY indication that someone can't draw falls on the lines of "Is... is that a leg? no? that's an arm? REALLY?"
when it's just a few-steps from blob-dom, or stick-figure-ism.
otherwise, it's just a question of taste.
I can say that the image you linked to is not exactly my taste. but it's still excellently drawn.
JeremyMikales
6 years, 6 months ago
I knew a guy at one point (If pressed, I might have to admit he was a friend at one point, but he turned into an asshole over time, and this is one of the symptoms of this) who insisted that for art to be good it had to be realistic, and involve a good deal of obvious effort. To him, a style being "Cartoony" is a  cop out meant to excuse an artist who was too incompetant to draw properly. He'd hate your art.

This position regularly pissed me off.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
Yeah, that's just... eugh. Cartoons are not a crutch, they're a medium. That guy was comple-he-etely ignorant.
halotoyou111
6 years, 6 months ago
comic book art was a lot worse in the 90's when liefeld was a major player and a shit ton of artists tried to copy him. His style was excrement and is a contributing factor as to why the 90's is known as the dark age of comics.

thankfully comic book art has improved over that, but I still prefer art like seen in the watchmen where it might not have super fancy shading but the anatomy, composition, and environmental detail is incredible.
JeremyMikales
6 years, 6 months ago
A moment of fairness: As bad as art got in the 90s, it's rarely ever been actually good until the last twenty or twenty five years. Prior to that, artists were encouraged to lean on a rigid house style and you had to be as serious visionary like Jack Kirby to get around that*. Combine that with the fact that until the late 80s, early 90s and possibly even further then comics were made to be as cheap as absolutely possible, so they were printed on bad paper using shoddy printing presses. If you look at comics from the 60s or 70s you probably will notice that unless it's been taken very good care of (At which point you the guy who owns it is probably coming at you with a bat for touching it), it's in pretty bad condition, and probably has numerous printing errors like offset color dyes. Comic companies didn't have the money to spend on good paper and good presses, so they encouraged art to be as simple and basic as possible to get around this.

This changed in the 90s because some high profile auctions of rare comics convinced people that comic books could be valuable, sparking the big collectors' market bubble that nearly killed comics when it burst. But in the meantime comics companies started improving the production values of their comics and could handle better art. This was about the same time the Auteur Theory started to come to comics because coincidentally (The 90s were a tumultuous   time in comics and a lot of things came to a head at the same time) writers and artists got sick of being treated like drones by their bosses. This resulted in the proliferation of indie comics and a certain mainstreaming of them, in particularly a rebellion against 'house-styles'. Say what you want about Liefield, his art is really different than what came before it.

No, it doesn't make his art good, that just makes his art fresh at the time. Like if you were locked in a basement for five years and fed on bread and water, if you go to McDonalds it'll probably be the best thing you remember ever having.

TL;DR: The 90s were a Renaissance, if a very[/i] poorly handled one, and Liefeld was a symptom of what was wrong with things rather than a cause.

*This is mostly a complaint aimed at mainstream comics produced in the US. Things got more flexible the further you got away from there and there were really good artists in the 60s and 70s producing great comics. You just weren't going to find any of it while browsing comics at a news-stand.
halotoyou111
6 years, 6 months ago
I suppose you're right. I'm also not being fair to 90's comics either. I recently read kingdom come, and the artwork in it was stunning.
Furman
6 years, 6 months ago
I wish I courd draw.....even 1/3 as good as anyone here
SkyeEldrich
6 years, 6 months ago
Speaking as someone who's trying to LEARN to draw...  It's F***ING HARD!!!  I don't know how professional artists get everything right, because every one of my pics has stuff screwed up. ^_^:;;
Rakaziel
6 years, 6 months ago
Practice, practice, and more practice. You need insight and experience.
Read books on the topic that show you the tricks and the principles behind it all, from proportion to perspective to -very important- the picture composition as a whole, then use them in your art to form the neural connections between abstractly knowing them and actually applying them, in coordination of brain, hand and eye. Brain here also includes the emotions you want to convey in your art - the easiest way to do this is to feel these emotions while creating the art, the easiest way to induce these emotion and the entire "feel" of the piece of art is listening to music that does it for you. Music in general is a good way to keep your engine going.
Repeat that till you no longer need to consciously think about it because the thought process is embedded as an automated routine. Like learning a mathematic formular, just with less numbers and more proportions.
Talent is important but can be substituted with enough skill, and you need skill to fully make use of your talent anyway.
Alfador
6 years, 6 months ago
It takes a great knowledge of anatomy and proportion to get them just wrong enough in just the right ways to be MORE pleasing to the eye than reality. Which, of course, is the whole POINT of art.
Rakaziel
6 years, 6 months ago
It's funny. On the one hand you have the people who essentially say anybody who does not do fotorealism can't draw. On the other hand you have the people who say photorealism has no artistic value. Ultimately most of both just want to look more sophisticated than the artist, because of the instinctive obsession with social status that seems to be part of our evolution.

Analysis of what could be done better is a good thing, but petty status wars is something we as a species need to grow out of.

Speaking of analysis and samsomdrave's comment, one way to make your characters look less "stiff" would be to use more perspective, the way you draw them now they often either have all their limbs positioned on one imaginary plane (like leaning against a wall) or most of the limbs positioned pairs and parallel to each other, and the point of view from which the entire character is seen is also often the same.
The solution to draw them more realistic would be to also give them more positions in which their limbs extend into several different directions, and then using perspectivic shortening and overlapping body parts to create a more three-dimensional picture. And to use more different camera angles with the resulting perspectivic shortening and overlapping body parts. More shading would also increase the effect.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
First of all, thank you for the extended advice, I really really appreciate it.

But secondly... well, I'm having trouble. I've realized for a good while now that my pictures look stiff, and I've been trying to give more thought to perspective, arm placement and all that! But being that my only feedback seems to amount to the fetishistic value of the picture, I don't really learn if I've done anything wrong or right. So I'm putting in the effort, but I don't know if I'm making any progress.

Like, here I use a lot of limb difference! Is it better? Does it work, or is it still the same? I can't tell.

How about here and here, or how about here? Bunch of perspective work! Does it work? I have no idea.

Hell, look at just the most recent page in my gallery. There's a crap ton of different poses and angles I've got people viewed at, but I can't figure out if it's helping or not. It's so stifling that I feel like I've reached my improvement ceiling not because I'm doing well, but because when I look at a picture that looks fluid, and I look at a picture of mine, I can't tell what the difference between them is. I'm trying all the superficial things that I can notice, and it seems like I'm doing what you ask, but it feels like there's something very basic about it that I'm not understanding. So, so frustrating. Urgh.
Rakaziel
6 years, 6 months ago
In https://inkbunny.net/submissionview.php?id=251911 the arm placement and head look good and the leg pose in itself, too. Only the angle of the legs and hips seems a little off, part of that effect is that from her pose alone I can not tell whether she is sitting or jumping, the shadows on her lower legs and the ground which would tell that with certanity are missing. The pose itself and picture composition look good.

https://inkbunny.net/submissionview.php?id=253864 looks good composition wise and the perspective looks good for the most part. What looks a little off are the fox's back and tail in relation to the back rest and arm rest of the couch, also because the contours of the couch can only be guessed here - it would need a few highlights to show how the couch is actually shaped. The tail looks off because in order to snake over the arm rest of the couch the tail wound have to bend up and down, which would create shades and highlights in natural lighting.
The back and lower right shoulder look off, mainly because the flannel pattern does not match the bend of the back and does not match the stretching and squashing of the fabric at the shoulder, a darker line to show the position of the seam would also add a threedimensional effect there. What increases the effect, especially in relation to his lower back and tail, is that the back rest of the couch seems to have no volume that would normally overlap with him. The way he is drawn currently it looks more like he were sitting on a rug or at the edge of the couch, while the rest of his pose indicates that he is leaning back.

https://inkbunny.net/submissionview.php?id=196011 looks good, the only mismatching parts are the sign (though that could also simply be it not standing perfectly upright), Naoki's neck (using his lower arm as reference for the legth of his torso, he would need a disproportially long neck for this pose to work - the solution with a shorter neck would be to push his head deeper into the cleavage) and the cat's hand on his hip (because the line of where her fingers are holding him and the actual line of his hip do not match). It also looks like Naoki's hip is a bit too low and his lower body a bit too long, unless his entire back is leaned back, in which case the shadows on his lower belly (after the point where he bends back) would be darker as it is not exposed to the sun.

https://inkbunny.net/submissionview.php?id=236890 looks really good, the pose is very dynamic and the perspective seems to work fine. The line of her muscles and her clothing does not match at her belt, but that could simply indicate loose-fitting clothing. Maybe a bit less shadow on her upper legs, towards her knees, it would maybe better convey the shape of the leg being a right angle at her knees. The Black Beast/Echelon would look better if it was pointed at the same point Natalie is looking at.

That is what I can see so far.
Seth65
6 years, 6 months ago
Man, I want to critique like that.
Rakaziel
6 years, 6 months ago
The only thing a good critique requires are politeness and insight. Read books on the subject (the ones I read were on comic drawing and on the work of some painters) and look at classic paintings. If anythying they are excellent examples of realism and skill. Same goes for creative 20th century painters who painted in a classic style, like Dali.

My own lineart skills are barely better than Nori's and he is better at shading. But that does not mean that I do not see the things, even if I have trouble reaching them myself.
Seth65
6 years, 6 months ago
Of course I understand that one does not need skill and just needs to understand artistic principles in order to critique. What I like about yours is the descriptions on what could use improvement. I have problems describing what the issue is or what can be done to help "fix" it, though I can usually tell where the "problem" is.
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
Those are all very helpful, very accurate observations. I can work on those in the future!

I'm still plagued by this general problem, but... I think I have a theory as to why it isn't working, and it regards my use of line. I think my linework is suffering from the thick strokes I use to hash out shapes, as I notice my pencil drawings tend to seem a bit more appreciable in this manner. Perhaps I'll try just using thin strokes and see if this makes any difference.
Norithics
2 years, 8 months ago
It's been four years since you gave me this advice, and it never left my head. I've been trying to make things better in all regards. What do you think? How's my progress?
PonderousPlatypus
6 years, 6 months ago
What the subject really boils down to is that being cynical and disliking things is thought of by many to be a 'cool' sort of thing these days. It's very hip to jump on a bandwagon and imply that your standards are just a wee bit higher than the average joe's, that you're a discerning and intelligent consumer who demands something more than the usual slop. With comic books, it started when people realized Rob Liefeld is terrible. Now, don't take that the wrong way, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve what he earned. There was a demand, and he supplied to the enjoyment of his fanbase. But, just because people wanted it doesn't meant it wasn't -awful-. So many pouches, so little feet! Also, try to read some of his own original dialogue sometime.

But, back on point. Somebody pointed out some of Rob's shortcomings, and because they are so pronounced a lot of people thought it was hilarious. And then everyone got to feel superior and look down on him, and assert that they were too good for his work. But, people being people, this started a trend. A trend of looking at other artists and condemning them, hoping to get a similar effect going, hoping to be seen as cool or different because they hold the bar higher than most other people. In reality, all they're doing to being too picky, like a little kid that only wants to eat fish sticks for dinner every single night.

In closing, fuck y'all niggas, they art be fine.
wolfman1214
6 years, 6 months ago
Oh just ignore those assholes. They're probably the same as the CoDfag HD graphic whores. "THAT SUCKS IF IT DOESN'T HAVE GRAPHICS BETTER THAN LIFE ITSELF DURR HURR HURRDEEURR!!!!"
Lamia
6 years, 6 months ago
I think the main problem is that because we have billions of real-life references to human beings, people will look for any error possible in a drawing of one if it's anywhere near realness; the margin of error is huge

meanwhile our rainbow-colored giant-breasted huge-assed animals are just fine because there's not much of a real analogue, plus having basis in years of cartoons and overarching exaggeration in proportion and expression gives it all a subconscious 'I can deal with this' sorta reaction

but as far as the style thing goes, complaining about it is all in why someone does so

in my case, I like to draw for entertainment purposes, for others more than myself, so in most cases I can't use the 'it's my style' argument when confronted with substantial criticism, not that I've ever gotten any but you get what I mean; subtle changes in what my style portrays could improve it greatly
if I wanted to make something just because I wanted to, I don't think I'd give a damn, but even still I don't really even now

that's just what I think in my morning stupor, anyway
Norithics
6 years, 6 months ago
Well, I find myself of the opinion that "It's my style" shouldn't have to be a defense. Nobody should have to defend themselves at all. All of us are always in some state of transition, there'll always be room for improvement. You don't think you're perfect, and I get the idea you're not... closed to improvement, so I just don't see the reason anybody should get up in arms that you're not to whatever arbitrary point of enlightenment or what have you. Stagnating can be annoying for artists and fans both, but I mean... it's still a free service we're rendering, here. I don't really see the entitlement.

When people deconstructively said they didn't like my art in the past, I offered them their money back- which was obviously a dig because they paid nothing. It was snide and petty, but I loved it, because it was the perfect summation of "Why should I give a shit what you don't like?"

So it's sort of like, as artists we owe it to ourselves to try and get better through various means... but that's it! We owe it to ourselves, period. Nobody else.
Lamia
6 years, 6 months ago
yeah, I getcha, most people do get riled up though by being criticized in one way or the other, for dissatisfaction and the like

still, I want to satisfy all I can with what I have or what some could point out, so long as I enjoy it still, and I sorta am right now I guess
PsyChuan
6 years, 6 months ago
For every nitpicker, though, there is a Rob Liefeld. Or however you spell that.
FritzRand
6 years, 6 months ago
Very, very interesting to read.  I sorta have various forms of ocd, so the latest pic i've been workin on, i've constantly been stopping and asking, "Is this position realistic",  guess I oughta spent a bit less time doing that.  Ha, I can't draw for crap.
123notit123
6 years, 6 months ago
May I just say that your journal and the comments for this thread are the highlight of my day. I'm so glad to hear such rational discussion on the internet, it gives me hope.
ChaosKnightMatthew
6 years, 6 months ago
Well, I do agree with you on this journal. There is a difference between trying to be real and having a personal style for drawing not a lot of people understand. Though I've been trying to get my drawing style improved, which I think I'm doing fairly well with what i know already, I've asked a the DA forums once about why couldn't I receive any comments for my drawings. Half the answer was pretty much what was said here, that the anatomy was off so my art should be burned to a crisp (No t exactly said like that, but is a general view since there were some rather... nasty comments said then >.>')

Overall, if someone does have a style of their own I can see it fair to encourage if it looks good and assist on the wrong areas but not to say he or she can't draw at all. >.<' Is just wrong I think.
ElfenSciuridae
6 years, 6 months ago
Style is everything. The Tick would not be The Tick if he did not have that 3ft lower jaw sticking out from under his head!
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/The-Tick...
Shardshatter
6 years, 6 months ago
Oh my fucking God! You hit the nail right on the head. The jerks expecting or even needing people to draw like their textbooks is so stinking annoying. I see folks trying to browbeat people like Jollyjack or bash Humberto Ramos for stylizing and emphasizing their art and I get nauseous. And it's never really about the art, it's about this long trend of homogenization that folks are forcing down others throats. The Loomis worshipers who cite the anatomy argument seem to forget that everyone doesn't want to be just some lame figure drawing cult member like themselves or a photographer who uses pencils. Without style, there is no bit of the artist in the piece. And these assholes would love that. It just means that there is a way to quantify art in general. Making it a binary decision like a math equation, between right or wrong and not upon what's most striking in the piece. Yes, there are certain body proportions that make sense to the human mind, but there is also skewing that to get a certain feel off of the character or emphasizing parts of them to appeal to tastes.

I could go on and on with this, but it just makes me mad to think about it. I've seen many an art discussion ruined by the loudest whiner in the room using those stupid arguments that aren't factual, but personal taste of the most elitist pricks who were spanked too hard by art professors and think they can assimilate every cartoonist, painter, and doodler who comes across their path. Ignoring tone, emphasis, what the artist was going for, what they normally draw, and being stubbornly close-minded burns my biscuits. I know there are people leaning on crutches as far as their art goes out here, but just because it's become the "in thing" to try and break someone down and be "superior" at all times doesn't it's acceptable to be a rude asshole when critiquing others or do so, in depth, when no one asked you to.

Thank you for bringing this up, man. Thank you for bringing this to light and starting the discussion. Because it seems to me that anyone with an iota of smarts or ability is on the side of the fence where the rational folks are.
Watchering
6 years, 6 months ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K1Kd9mZL8g

When they talk about stylized vs photo realism I think applies here too even though they're taking about video games. Personally it annoys me seeing people complaining about things like "where are her organs?, she must have back problems, breasts don't look like that" I get I know you don't like this stuff and it confuses you. That's par for the course but how did you get to this picture to complain though?  
Rhemora
6 years, 6 months ago
I know that I cannot draw but I can still see some things that sometimes artists miss out on and when they ask I do tell them what I see that could be improved, I am not one to be an outright prick like some of the people in that image were, I know that proportion is in the eye of the artist and we shouldn't think that we can do better just because someone else did the picture in question. In the end a lot of critics who just criticize for the joy of feeling big should just sit down and be quiet so the rest of us can enjoy ourselves more in life.
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