Straight Shame by Karmandel < Journal | Inkbunny, the Furry Art Community

Athendae

4 years, 10 months ago

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Iunno. Isn't "ally" enough? It's legitimately part of the official acronym. There's the "straight" inclusion. Just don't be an asshat, right, and you're part of the group. Lol

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Athendae

The A in LGBTIQA+ was for Asexual last I looked it up, but reading it as Allies is an attractive idea. "Don't be an asshat" is the golden rule for most aspects of life, actually.

Athendae

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Karmandel

There are, in fact, two A's in the official acronym; "ally," being right after "asexual." Lol

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Athendae

Well, you can't turn your back on that thing for more than a minute before it grows another letter! But that's good to know.

kamimatsu

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Originally it only meant Ally because a lot of people, just like today, pretended Asexuality didn't even exist, while simultaneously claiming we weren't being erased. It wasn't until the second A for Asexual that the group even acknowledged that we exist, and even then, it's rare that anyone actually acknowledge that we even go through anything, claiming that lack of records is somehow proof of no erasure, as if that made sense. Now they're not only thinking of removing the second A, but the B.

Karmandel

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ kamimatsu

Who are 'they'? During Pride week here there was full support from the organization for the Ace events I attended. I was at Europride too, and ace merch is given equal shelf space with other letters -- if they have more than Pride and trans, you are just as likely to find an ace flag as a bi, non-binary or gender-fluid one. (I didn't attend the programming at Europride, however, so I don't know how much Ace was included). But numbers are small, most Ace people are not out. I didn't spot a single Ace flag in the Europride parade except the one I wore, in Copenhagen there were like 10 people.

Anyway, in this part of the world the A has always been explained as Ace since it was added -- it's the second one that's Ally, except that it's usually not included because we're a bit backward. If it's different where you are, that's sad.

kamimatsu

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Where I am, we're either challenges for people to "complete", patients in an institution, or in my case, medicated under false pretenses.

Karmandel

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ kamimatsu

I believe you, and I'm sorry to hear it, but luckily it's not a universal occurrence.

MystBunny

4 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 4 years, 10 months ago by Owner

@ Karmandel

GEEZ that's a long acronym! We need a new name

luna112

4 years, 9 months ago

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@ Karmandel

What's the "I"?

Karmandel

4 years, 9 months ago

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@ luna112

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual. And I'm not sure which of those is supposed to represent non-binary people, but I guess they are either transgender or queer until they get their own letter.

Some of those are about sexual orientation, some of them are about gender identities and roles, intersex is also about physical makeup, and a little psychology (questioning) and politics (ally) goes into the mix as well. As long as everybody fights on the same side, it's not a problem.

RokukeShiba

4 years, 10 months ago

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Its pretty much all lives matter but against gays.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ RokukeShiba

Good point, but I'm not in the US so I don't feel qualified to speak about that. Also it could easily derail the discussion.

RokukeShiba

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Karmandel

basically its a pure reactionary, trying to muddy the water by saying "IF ITS ABOUT BEING EQUAL THEN WHY NO STRAIGHT PRIIIIDE"

Mostly done by anti gay types and edgelords.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ RokukeShiba

Yes, and that's why you have to pin the shame on them instead, for trying to sow confusion to protect their own privilege.

PonderousPlatypus

4 years, 10 months ago

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Incredibly well said. People clamoring for such symbols of pride are usually seeking only to undermine the support of others rather than explore any kind of actual celebration of culture. Which makes sense, because it's hard to push up normative causes beyond 'make sure you're thinking about ME today'.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ PonderousPlatypus

Thanks! And yes, when you are at the top the only way to increase your advantage is to bring other people down.

RollerCoasterViper59

4 years, 10 months ago

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*upvotes journal*

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ RollerCoasterViper59

Thanks!

GraceTheGoldenFurred

4 years, 10 months ago

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Very well said! I don't celebrate pride events because I think I'm special or better than anyone else, but in honor of the ongoing struggle for people to be accepted as who they are no matter who they love and no matter their identity. If there ever came a time when heterosexual folks were oppressed by anyone, I would stand with them in condemning that oppression. In the absence of that, however, I don't see any reason for heterosexual folks to engage in pride events because they have nothing they need to fight back against and it seems silly to me for anyone to act like things were otherwise.

If people just wanna party, though, hell, I'll party anytime!

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ GraceTheGoldenFurred

Exactly!

But I'm afraid those "straight pride" guys are no fun at parties. Let's you and me go out back and have a drink while they wave their dicks at each other, I have some nice scotch right here I can bring.

Lamia

4 years, 10 months ago

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I don't really understand or care about the whole pride thing

but if someone's serious about their straight pride I'm not going to discourage them, since ultimately that's what equality is about

even if what they're doing is some dumb shit, I'll still shake their hand and promote their freedom to be a dumbshit

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Lamia

Sure, "do what thou wilt an it hurt no one."

But when there is a claim that LGBT+ Pride is wrong and should be suppressed because the LGBT+ community don't want to help the poor oppressed majority celebrate themselves -- that falls foul of the 'hurt no one' part.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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Also I seem to have lost two watchers because I posted this. Totally worth it :)

IsabelleUrsaga

4 years, 10 months ago

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Hear hear, Karmandel. Hear freaking hear.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ IsabelleUrsaga

Thanks!

thefluffiest1

4 years, 10 months ago

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I could stand to be a little less visible, in all honesty.

I agree and see nothing which needs restating among the above comments and your original post.

I am, in the same thought, tired of the false dichotomy in all this. Subjugation, oppression, marginalization, condemnation, and all other forms of exclusionary means which have been applied to any classification, they are all relics of a disconnected society where isolationism was even possible. Given this electronic frontier it is willful ignorance—that is to say, choosing to ignore the reality—of the melting pot nature of our new society. Indeed, we are so little our nationality or race or even social status here, in this amalgam of potentials, that it's absurd to bring the artifacts of closed social groups into this glorious future.

Ideographs of sexuality, be they pride flags or symbols of any sort, are being used to bolster those that still feel shame. “Pride” isn't about throwing in the face of others as those that demand “straight pride” symbols (I recommend the middot: •) but rather bolstering those still in shame over what they feel and who may have yet to express that which they hold in shame in any meaningful way. To be so incapable of understanding how others feel or the meaning behind such movements boggles the parts of my mind unfortunate enough to encounter these elements of our wondrous society.

Sure, I'm me, and I'm not in these minorities so I don't get any of the pretty flags (if I did, I'd want it to have cake on it, though °ω°). But I'm in other minorities! °дº

That's right! I like cub, and gore, and snuff, and a million (or maybe like seventy) other things that are in bad taste and I (perhaps rightfully) find too shameful to even list next to those few things. I can't take pride in my deviancy, my aberration from societal conventions, and it fills me with shame. I'm haunted by the things in my mind, at times, and for many years been fearful of the dangers of entertaining such thoughts to any extent. Shame and secrecy, a partitioning of my world, a double life began to form, it's awful the effects of shame.

Pride is more than being represented, it's about more than being represented, it's about helping others stuck in fear and shame from… well, sometimes it's easy to not see a future. We're all in this together, and I'm proud to be able to help others get over their shame and fear, emotions born from not feeling accepted, even if all I'm doing 99% of the time is not being one of the idiots perpetuating hate.

It's hard to tell if I've digressed but I'll shut up now. ·—·

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ thefluffiest1

I wish you were right, but being online doesn't seem to diminish the amount of hatred that people exhibit towards each other because of RL identities.

Also I don't agree that Pride is only about supporting people who feel shame. Shame is what anti-LGBT groups want LGBT people to feel, and I'm sure the Pride Parades help people stop feeling that shame, but Pride is also about working to eliminate the very real human rights violations that LGBT+ people experience the world over.

I was actually carrying my asexual flag during the pride parade because it is part of my RL identity, and I would like people to respect my sexuality in RL (not that anybody was hitting on me anyway). I wasn't told I didn't belong, and I was able to buy ace-related merch at the Pride Village. But then I don't think I would have been treated any differently if I had just worn the rainbow flag and walked with the parade as an ally.

However, I saw no reason to signpost my interest in incestuous cub snuff sex art -- I prefer keep that private except on this profile, and I am not going to be persecuted because if it.

thefluffiest1

4 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 4 years, 10 months ago by Owner

@ Karmandel

I must apologize, I meant to broaden the conversation and have narrowed it in my error. If you’ll allow me, I’d like to address my many mistakes.

My overly idyllic descriptions of the internet were, at best, wishful thinking, to be sure. It’s much too obvious how far the reality falls short of expectations and perhaps it’s too much to ask that the narrow-minded bigots leave their prejudices at the door. It’s easier to find acceptance in an online community but your point that hatred persists is very true.

As to what Pride is about, it would be ignorant of me to assume the intentions or motives of others, and indeed was ignorant of me to overstate the perspective I should have more humbly offered as another facet of benefit Pride may have; so follows that your original point of the concept of “straight pride” being in poor taste (to paraphrase) further marginalizes those whom Pride may benefit. Albeit a hypothetical set of people, it was something I hadn’t seen discussed and which I felt merited inclusion.

Easily most egregious of me: I can now see the blatant false equivalence I made in bringing up my proclivities. It’s inexcusable how I correlated my shame with those whom Pride is meant to help, only made worse by my admission of how far reaching Pride might be. I am truly sorry for my hurtful inconsideration and regret the disrespectful way I pushed myself into the conversation.

I concede that I was wrong to assign my own characterizations on the nuances of pride as a concept and feeling, to Pride as the support of others whom deserve better than my ineloquence. I have a lot to think about and will take this as a lesson learned, that I might better myself for the future. In time, perhaps I won’t be so foolish. Any smarter than I may have been wise enough to remain silent.

I thank you for your reply, your time, and your patience with my egotistical behavior.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ thefluffiest1

Don't be so hard on yourself. I didn't think that you were trying to derail the discussion or anything. It's natural to see an issue in the terms that occupy your own mind, and I thought you had valid points, I just wanted to focus on other aspects.

kamimatsu

4 years, 10 months ago

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Both extremes tend to pretend that people like me (male romantic asexuals) either don't exist (while forgetting erasure exists), don't count due to being a majority (because 0.5% is totally the majority), are not oppressed *enough* (3 feet or 8 feet, drowning is still drowning), or somehow appropriated being erased (while claiming there is no historical evidence of said erasure, while forgetting that erasure is inherently always going to be missing from history because that is what erasure means), I've been accused of appropriating being the victim of corrective rape. I was 16, she was 18. My parents pretend it *caused* my asexuality despite her doing so as a *reaction* to finding out about it, before i knew the term existed. Most people think i must be "a virgin who lost hope", conveniently forgetting that i *lost* my virginity in a way that destroys hope *much* more painfully.

To those against lgbt pride, I'm just some loser looking for a reason to be special. To LGBT, I'm some asshole who thinks I'm better than everyone.

In reality I'm just tired of being called the freak just because I don't want to fuck, and I'd like to, for once, NOT be something special. I want to be normal.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ kamimatsu

I'm sad to hear that this sort of thing is happening to you, and personally I don't understand why anybody would want to keep you out of the LGBT+ family or tell you that you are wrong about what you need to be happy.

Please know that I'm not saying your identity shouldn't be a part of LGBT+ -- the "straight pride" people I'm arguing against are the heteronormative ones. Maybe I should have used that word, but it feels so clunky.

(I'm using this answer twice because of two very similar situations).

kamimatsu

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Thank you. Honestly, I know you weren't talking about me in the journal, or even implying it. I'm not good at wording things to avoid sounding accusatory. I do appreciate the support.

KevinSnowpaw

4 years, 10 months ago

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I will try to answer from the perspective of a Bisexual Male why theres a cry for a straight pride movement. I will also try to respond to some of your comments.

Let me just start by saying I think the concept of staight pride flags and parades is, kinda sad, and very clingy.

I also want to say, again as a Bisexual male so im not burned down by the extremists for "speaking for others" Im part of this whole LGBTQXZYP+ mess and I gotta say.

I hate pride parades pride flags, trans flags gay flags race flags and anything else that allows or encourages people to identify as there skin color or sexual preference as the core of there identity instead of simply, a garnish, on the side of the massive plate of who they are. This would include "straight pride"

Maybe once upon a time we needed a pride parade to celibrate being gay or bi or any non "normative" orientation but we DONT now.

we DO NOT.

The entire culture war has been won, homosexual bisexual and every other Exual under the sun with perhaps the notable exception of pedophila is at best Embraced with GREAT affection by society and the media and culture as a whole, and at worst, tolerated by it wich is ALL the gay pride movement when it got started ever asked for!

to just be treated as normal or left alone to there own lives. I cant agree with that more, consenting adults have a write to live there lives how they see fit as long as they harm nobody.

he only people who are Anti Gay now a days in the civilized world anyway are fringe groups, usually of religious extremists. Even mainstream religious people are perfectly happy to tolerate homosexuality as long as it's not forced on them. SO basicly it's just a handfull of ass holes who are "anti gay" We arnt "fighting for equality and acceptance" Pride parades have turned into disgusting celebrations of fetishism and sex, when origenaly they were about simply not being afraid of who you WHERE!

the shit ive seen at modern pride parades turns my stomachache and maybe not all pride parades are like this but ive seen enough that it's far to meny. I dotn wanna see your dick and balls flopping around while you and your buddies are crawling on all fours in a leather and latex pony head with a bit in your mouth...there are kids here! Maybe there should not be if your going to be doing that crap!

So since pride has devolved into a degeneracy, ive since stopped enjoying the concept. I am deeply saddened becouse the gay pride movement was never originally about sex, it was about simply being proud of who you were and not being afraid to Say it, like it was something bad or shameful.

"	I'm a male and as cishet as they come. Can you explain to me what I need a flag for? Which cultural majority is trying to erase me and deny my existence, who do I need to push back against to be allowed to lead my life in dignity or even safety?

You dont and neither do I

I'm already celebrated by mainstream culture just for being clever enough to be born as a white male in a western country. Who do I and my fellow middleaged cishet white males need to rally against? Nobody. Absolutely nobody. The cold facts are that it will take decades or centuries before there is anything like parity of power between people like me and the most inclusive alliance of LGBT+ people you can think of.

I work with LGBTQ+ people on a daily basses two of my co workers are openly trans, media and tv shows are full of positive homosexual characters, neither you Nor I need to struggle against "Oppression" we are not oppressed, unless you live in Arabia, your lifes fucking awesome as a gay person in the USA.

I just find it kinda sad, Homosexuals just wanted to be accepted or at least, tolerated, and left alone. Now look at what pride parades have become... I am Ashamed of it all.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ KevinSnowpaw

Well, Pride is not only about male homosexuals in the USA. The battle is not won -- transgendered people still have a much higher suicide rate than other identities, homosexuals are still being executed in many countries. I was at Europride last week, as I said, and the programming was about supporting LGBT+ people who are genuinely oppressed. It was a gigantic party, yes, the leather gays were very visible, yes, and we confused the normies, yes, but it was also a meeting place for many organizations that are still needed to do genuine good in the world.

If Pride had really devolved into just a flag-waving sex party occasion I would agree with you, there would be no real difference to what the 'straight pride' people want.

But that is not what I see. I don't know how much of the impression you get is because of the actions of the LGBT+ community itself -- they are probably not blameless, but other actors also have an interest in presenting that view.

unsent

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ Karmandel

pssst transgender is not a verb, it's not a noun, it's an adjective. don't say "transgendered people" it's transgender people. or simply trans people. thanks.

Karmandel

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ unsent

Sure, transgender works just as well as transgendered, but what is your authority for saying that transgendered is wrong? The trans people I know don't worry about that sort of detail, you are the first person to complain.

unsent

4 years, 6 months ago

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Edited 4 years, 6 months ago by Owner

@ Karmandel

it's vox but it still nails the points: https://www.vox.com/2015/2/18/8055691/transgender-trans...

they're not correcting you because either they don't quite know it - being trans doesn't automatically make you educated about all trans issues - or because they're afraid to point it out because they don't want to irritate you

transgendered isn't a real word because there is no such thing as trensgending. it's not a verb. most trans people find it offensive, and it costs you nothing to accept the mistake and use the word correctly in the future rather than doubling down :/

Karmandel

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ unsent

Oh, I see, you (or the Vox writer) think 'gendered' and 'colored' always mean that people changed to be that way. That's not the way language works, grammatical constructions can have more than one meaning -- for instance, 'gendered pronoun' is the technical term for a pronoun that implies the gender of the person it refers to, and the term in no way implies that the pronoun was given a gender at some time, it always had it.

But anyway, even though 'gender' is a noun, English allows you to use it as an adjective too. So I will do that in English. It doesn't work that way in my native language, though, and please don't come and try to change it.

unsent

4 years, 6 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Please stop being so dense

Just because a compound word contains another word it doesn't mean it follows the same rules as that word

SissyHairball

4 years, 10 months ago

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I can definitely see where some may be coming from, though.

Both as a masculine cis male, and as a feminine female, I was horribly depressed. I hated life. I hated myself. I avoided mirrors. Realizing that there was a somewhat middle ground, one that I'm actually comfortable sitting in, changed my life for the better.

In spite of that, I've been told repeatedly during pride month 2019 that my identity is invalid and that I should just be cis homosexual or trans hetero. I need to stop "sitting on the fence" and "pick a side."

"I'm just going through a transitional period and I'll find my true self eventually."

"I'm a trans-trender and should burn in hell."

"Cis is cis no matter how feminine you prefer to be."

"Femboy is a derogatory word."

"Sissy is a derogatory word."

I could go on and on. Fact is, there are some cishets in a similar situation. It hurts being told that you don't matter just because you're not part of the LGBTQ+ community. That you're relegated to being an "ally." There are even people who say that being cishet isn't valid during pride month, who actively go out and harass cishets.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ SissyHairball

BunnyFoxglove

4 years, 10 months ago

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I'll be honest, I don't like the "pride parade" stuff. I have nothing against people being what they want to be, and I don't think they should have to hide it. I also don't think they need to have a big parade about it either.

When you start being loud and obnoxious about it, how is that any different than the people who are loud and obnoxious against it? Why can't we just celebrate life, and all aspects of it instead? Why should we celebrate the Pride movement, when really it should have just been common decency to begin with. It feels weird to celebrate "Pride" when really it's the "Not straight parade".

So basically the people who didn't want to be ostracized, are throwing a parade to ostracize the people that they feel ostracized them. When did two wrongs make a right? The whole thing baffles me.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ BunnyFoxglove

Well, I've never heard of LGBT+ people who wanted straight people to disappear. Also the two sides are not equal in power.

If common decency had been in force 50 years ago, Stonewall would never have happened. And if the people who want straight representation in the Pride movement would use their energy on making the world safe for non-straight people instead, then Pride would stop being needed so much sooner.

Ameinias

4 years, 10 months ago

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Maybe there should be a criterium, transparent for everyone, for when you're allowed under the 'umbrella' and when not? What would that criterium (or criteria) be?

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Ameinias

I wish there could be. But it seems to be a general human tendency that movements split into factions that fight each other more bitterly than the establishment they started out as an opposition to. As several people have testified in these comments, you may find the people who should be your allies, trying to erase your identity instead.

Personally I don't understand what motivates this, but it makes me ashamed for humanity.

(From what I see this tends to happen more in the US and the UK than in Europe -- but I'm not in deep enough in the local groups to actually know what happens there, so I may well be wrong).

Ameinias

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Karmandel

The problem is that if there aren't any criteria then the Movement can accept and reject people just cause they don't want bad publicity. Cause let's be honest, there are people who are shunned a thousand times more than traditional, mainstream lgbt people. That fact has made the Movement quite reactionary, in my opinion. Maybe more bad than good.

Stumpycoon

4 years, 10 months ago

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Well said.

InannaLabbatu

4 years, 10 months ago

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Edited 4 years, 10 months ago by Owner

Long comment.  TL;DR at the bottom for your convenience.

---

Up until a couple days ago I had the attitude that "pride" events and so on were bad things, because of the idea that if you want equal rights you shouldn't be calling attention to yourselves lest people think you're evil or whatever.

But I realized something in, of all places, the General Chat in Star Wars: The Old Republic, on the planet Dromund Kaas (or DK, for short), which if anyone here is familiar with that game, you'll know that DK chat is one of the most toxic general chats in the game.  So it kinda surprised me that I realized this there.  I actually made the above argument about pride and the person who was defending pride pointed out that if the Civil Rights Movement had done what I was suggesting, we would still have Jim Crow.  And that really made me think about things.

You see, I was different when I was a kid, and my own parents are the two most racist and bigoted people I know.  They'd never join the likes of the KKK or anything like that, but only because it would make them look bad to others, not because they disagree with the racism of such groups.  And because I was so different, my parents were not kind to me.  They kept telling if I just became normal, everything would be okay.  Well, I did my level best to become normal, and everything only got worse.  Abusive behavior became more pronounced, not less.  The more I did what they wanted, the more of my humanity they took away from me.  Because I was naturally different, they more regularly shit on me, as it were, with complete impunity.

This made me realize that Pride is a good thing, precisely because it frightens and offends the majority.  If the majority is never offended, the majority (who has all the power usually) is never going to take action, and as I learned in high school during some of the worst bullying I've ever encountered, the only way to get a bully to stop abusing you is to make them hurt.  In the case of my parents, simply being myself hurt them enough that they spent more time complaining and less time abusing.  Nothing will ever change if you blend in.  But without having a way to effectively fight back, being yourself is a death sentence.  Pride gives people that way to effectively fight back, and I think that's why so many people despise the Pride movement.

Plus, it's just people being proud of what they are.  No preaching of violence or of overthrowing governments, which of course confuses the living hell out of oppressors whose main mode of operation is violence.  This is why Gandhi's movement and Martin Luther King Jr's movement were so powerful: they did something that the violent oppressors hadn't prepared to deal with.  And Pride merely follows that same pattern.  Violent people don't understand it, so all they can really do is talk smack about it while it basically gets the people within the movement the attention they need to effectively fight back against their oppressors.

---

TL;DR - Most oppressors are violent and so they assume that any resistance against them will be violent in return, and they gear up for it.  Pride isn't violent, it simply gives you a means to be yourself without as much fear of retaliation.  This is why so many people make an issue out of Pride, and lambast it.  Oppressors are little more than schoolyard bullies who've grown up and are bullying a lot more people with much more violent methods than they had available to them as kids, so they want you to either cower before their might or fight them using their weapons.  But simply being yourself, and having a lot of other people supportive of you being yourself, is something they're not prepared for, they don't comprehend it.  So they resort to critcizing Pride movements.

Ameinias

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ InannaLabbatu

Thanks for the long story.

Personally, I'm not too fond of Pride (partially) because I don't find them very tolerant, even though they claim to be. I'm sure some people affiliated with it is, but my view, in general, is that it's too intolerant.

InannaLabbatu

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Ameinias

Oh, I agree that there are intolerant folks within those groups.  But that's pretty much normal for any group, you'll always have some fanatics who take it way too far.

I myself have been SWATted by what I assume were trans* activists on Twitter (or at least they attempted to, the local police department only sent two beat cops, but it was the usual "felony in progress" line that SWATters like to use when making their false accusations) because I dared to disagree with them on something.  I don't even remember what the disagreement was on, but I myself am transgender and I guess in those fanatics' minds that combined with my disagreeing with what they were saying makes me a heretic/traitor.  Plus, I am also Otherkin, and a lot of the trans* activists absolutely despise people like me.  The hatred is palpable and very real.

But like I said, those are just the fanatics, the overbearing gatekeeping jackasses who want things done exactly their way and everyone else can "die in a fire" as a popular Internet line goes.  And truth be told, I don't think the fanatics really are interested in pride or whatever other cause they claim to believe in.  I think they're there because they're attention whores.  They're basically the Alex Joneses of activism (not talking about Jones's beliefs here, but his obsession with basically stealing the limelight from everyone else).

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ InannaLabbatu

Thanks for this, the comparison to the Civil Rights Movement is very relevant here. Pride exists to cause change in the world, not to make people feel good about themselves.

BigD

4 years, 7 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Then why are we supposed to cheer for blacks who brag about their race, while calling whites who do it racist? Race is race and bragging about it can't somehow be different just because of what race you are.

BigD

4 years, 7 months ago

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@ InannaLabbatu

Pride events based on things one has no control over are bad in that they are irrational and demonstrate an irrational mindset by those who participate. They declare that your value as a person is dependent on things you have no control over, rather than on the things you do (ie, that a black man is somehow equal to or more moral than a man like Chris Garnder simply because of the race they share). And by extension, they declare those who don't share the characteristics to be evil.

That being said, there's no reason to ban such people from being irrational provided they don't initiate force against others. Irrational doesn't automatically mean something should be illegal.

Jewel

4 years, 10 months ago

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I don't see any problem in straight pride. From the vantage point of a conservative white male I'm sure it feels like your cultural identity is under siege from all sides; political, demographic, values. I don't think the idea of identity celebration should be limited to people who are "oppressed","abnormal", or in the minority.

https://images.theconversation.com/files/246288/origina...

IMO the above shouldn't be controversial.

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Jewel

Well, of course. Everybody should be allowed to celebrate their own identity, as long as they do it without harming other groups.

The Straight Pride people, however, seem to want to be recognized as another oppressed, erased, abnormalized group and be treated equally with minority groups like transgendered persons. That ain't so, and it's not discrimination when they aren't.

(And if some conservative white males are being disadvantaged by identity-based policies, which I don't deny though I doubt the problem is as pervasive as some make it sound -- it is because the conservative, middle aged, white, cishet president of the university has determined that the best way of protecting his bonus is to implement those policies. The "LGBT+ Cabal" does not have the power to implement anything by itself).

Jewel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Karmandel

"	treated equally with minority groups like transgendered persons. That ain't so, and it's not discrimination when they aren't.

I think that's the very definition of discrimination! Transgendered people should be treated just the same as non-transgendered people. I don't understand why you'd be advocating otherwise.

Also "affirmative action" is pretty disgusting. It's wrong on so many levels.

It's ineffective because it treats the symptoms (poor college attendance amongst blacks) of an underlying issue (systemic poverty, poor cultural norms, poor government services) instead of fixing the fundamental problem that prevents people from competing on an even playing field. If you know anything about process optimization you know that you have to get to the root cause and fix the issue there, not paper over it with fixes down the line.

It's unfair because it punishes people who have done nothing wrong by artificially lowering their competitive chances to get into a center of higher education. Bear in mind this is actually affecting asian students just as much as it is white-cis-hetreo males [whom everyone likes to demonize, including you I see :^)].

Karmandel

4 years, 10 months ago

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@ Jewel

You cut out the first part of the sentence you quote. Yes, if transgendered people were being treated exactly the same as straight people, straight people would have a legitimate cause for complaint in the "straight pride" issue.

But transgendered people, or any of the other groups in LGBT+, are being stigmatized as abnormal, their identities are being erased, and they are the victims of various other sorts of oppression. That does not happen to straight (heteronormative) white males. (It does happen to women and to people of color, regardless of sexual and gender identity, but those are other battles).

I'm not advocating that the oppression of LGBT+ people should continue, I'm saying that straight people should stop claiming that they are being oppressed. I thought I put that very clearly already.

Also about affirmative action -- I totally agree that it is a very inefficient way of trying to fix problems that are caused by unequal access to quality primary and secondary education and other social inequalities. But I assume (since I'm not in the US where this happens) that the minority groups that are advocating affirmative action have also been advocating for improvements in the other areas -- it is the politicians and administrators in power who have chosen to paper over the problem with affirmative action instead of fixing the underlying problem. The majority of hose politicians and administrators just happens to be made up by straight white males -- I'm not saying it's because straight white males are evil as such, or that any other group would be better, but given history it's hard to imagine that any other group would have been in that position of power.

My point is that it is certainly not the LGBT+ community who are oppressing young straight white (or asian) males in this fashion, and if they are being oppressed it's not because of their sexual or gender identity, it's because of their privileged background. (Privilege is not just money, it's also what schools your parents arrange for you or if they can do your homework with you). It still does not entitle them to a pride flag.

BigD

4 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 4 years, 7 months ago by Owner

How does a straight person bragging about something he has no control over violate the rights of others while an LGBT+ person doing the same somehow promotes rights? If equality is the goal, then the same action can't somehow be different just because the person doing it prefers to go for the same gender rather than the opposite one. That's like saying rape is somehow not rape because a woman does it to a man instead of vice versa. A is A, regardless of sex, race, or sexual orientation.

Also, however offensive "straight pride" may be to some people, how do people declaring it initiate force against others or prevent them from living their lives? People do far more foolish things aside from bragging about something they have no control over every day, yet we don't accuse them of trying to oppress those who don't indulge in such things.

Karmandel

4 years, 7 months ago

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@ BigD

I don't think anybody in this thread said that Straight Pride would violate the rights of anybody else.

But some proponents of Straight Pride are saying that their rights are being violated because the Pride movement won't include them. And as a straight cis man I'm telling them that they sound like little entitled brats.

The whole reason that Pride exists is that straight people are excluding LGBT+ people all the time. The straights aren't celebrating the queers, so why should the queers celebrate the straights?

If straight people want equality they can work to create it for LGBT+ people, then Pride would not be necessary and they wouldn't miss out on anything. In fact Pride welcomes straight allies, at least where I am.

I'm not going to answer your other comments because Pride is not about race, and while there may be parallels the situation is so different between the US and Europe that I can't have an opinion.

EdgarKingmaker

4 years, 5 months ago

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I... obliviously didn't even realize it was a discussion.

Gonna go back into my bat cave now.

Karmandel

4 years, 5 months ago

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@ EdgarKingmaker

Don't worry, it's not your fault -- this stuff is not in the evening news directly, you only encounter opinions like this if you follow LGBT 'influencers' (or their opponents).

EdgarKingmaker

4 years, 5 months ago

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@ Karmandel

I'm in the "don't care about any of it" category. Also, I got my bat signal jammed up for now.

For now.

AllastorBallast

4 years, 3 months ago

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Ha! That is hilarious!

Karmandel

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ AllastorBallast

I wasn't trying to be funny, but thanks!

AllastorBallast

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Its funny because it doesn't matter anyway, in the end its all utter bullshit, because we gon DIE and take none of this baggage with us wherever the hell we go or end up.

Karmandel

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ AllastorBallast

Well, yeah, but our little monkey brains don't know that, so better make the world a good place to live in so you can be happy. Happiness is not logical.

AllastorBallast

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ Karmandel

We still don't have race down pat as no longer being an issue, hell with increase in forced diversity, both things are being looked at with scrutiny by the majority.

Karmandel

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ AllastorBallast

Well, the majority has always been skeptical about changes, that doesn't mean that they are right. 120 years ago, the majority thought that letting women vote was a bad idea.

AllastorBallast

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Yea and that was something thousands of years in the making.

Karmandel

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ AllastorBallast

To be honest, I don't think that's an excuse. It took people hundreds of thousands of years to come up with the idea of banging two rocks together, and I'm sure there were grumpy old men opposed to that idea as well.

Things just move faster now, and you have to wake up and smell the coffee. And maybe you have a point in that people are not evolved to live in a society that changes so fast, but I'm not going to accept transgender people being driven to suicide just because you are not willing to wrap your head around the idea. Which is where we started.

AllastorBallast

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ Karmandel

That's just the problem, no one seems to notice that just about everywhere else that isn't influenced by our ideology from the start..they fuckin hate anyone thinking or acting differently. Hell it took the human race FOREVER to realize "Hey, maybe we shouldn't be doin this whole enslavement of others thing" And somehow it's still a thing for those that are utterly fucked! I agree, we shoulda advanced from this AGES ago, but the human race is a bunch of doodoo brains! No one ever thinks the same! Good or horrendously fucking awful, you can't control everyone's thought processes. Some people just need to be removed entirely from your life and possibly others, no discrimination!

Karmandel

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ AllastorBallast

Ha, then we agree! In my private life I try to avoid the bigots, and just teach the people who seem willing to listen.

AllastorBallast

4 years, 3 months ago

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@ Karmandel

Exactly! And few want to do that! So what do we do?! We move them around!

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