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Norithics

Cub Art and Grooming, Part 2

If you know me well, you'll know that I can't leave something well enough alone.

When people came forward and said that they'd been groomed into molestation as children using Cub Porn, it was a serious moment recalibration for me. The idea that what I'm doing is harmless seemed to no longer be true. So I did what I felt I needed to: I asked for more information. Surprisingly, quite a number of people were willing to talk to me about their experiences, and I've learned a lot from these accounts. One thing in particular, in fact, surprised me a lot. But here's the spread.

The accounts pretty much split down two types:
1) People trying to use the furry fandom as a way to lure in vulnerable teens/tweens to create RL child porn.
2) Internet relationships between a tween/teen and an adult

The first account is pretty familiar to us- stranger tries to endear themselves to a child, meets up, they end up in a bad situation they can't escape, they use the CP they make to bring in another, the cycle continues. Strangers in the dark.

The second one, however, is much more common by any metric I can measure, and it's surprising how public it is. A young person enters a relationship with someone much too old for them, the older one draws, commissions or asks the younger one to draw them both consummating their relationship (because pictures are the roses of furry relationships; we're weird that way), and the relationship continues until they meet. The grooming aspect of the art is specific to depicting both of them, together, in some way, shape or form.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

If someone raises an objection, or a question, about the ages involved? The younger person just... ages their character up, and pretends to be older.

At this point, the abuse is invisible to us. Nobody who doesn't know the younger person personally has any way of knowing what's going on. In fact, in plenty of cases, the younger person was never not portrayed as an adult in art. We have no way of knowing how many couples out there feature people of drastically different ages, both posing as adults.

So let's do a thought experiment.

Let's say we nuked all cub art. Clean, porn, everything, gone tomorrow. What happens to these two cases?

In the first case, well. Nothing. Cub art was never a necessary component, it was just a secondary vector for abusers to find and trade with other abusers, and they'll never not have that. They'll create their own hidden network and hang out there and finding them will be even harder.

In the second case, everyone knows you can't draw cubs and it's strictly enforced, so... everyone has an adult character. Every furry tween and teen on the internet draws themselves as an adult, making it absolutely impossible for anyone to know they aren't one. They get thrust into the miasma of general furry art, which has a ton of porn. They get approached by people as if they're an adult, unless their manner of communication gives it away to someone looking for it. In any case, this relationship is impossible to detect, and therefore the abuse is even harder to find.

In conclusion: Taking steps to castigate non-offending pedophiles and remove art networks related to it pushes them into the dark, makes them less likely to get help if they need it, and actively trains them to be more secretive- which is how you get away with molesting children.

Having a cub art community makes finding abusers easier. If you want to help vulnerable young people, stop raging and start engaging.

TL;DR: I am not morally conflicted about doing what I do anymore; I am now doubly sure this is the right direction.
Viewed: 1,096 times
Added: 5 years, 8 months ago
 
RokukeShiba
5 years, 8 months ago
and  also its more common to be abused by your family member then a scary internet people.

Also grooming been happening waaaaaay before furry art. Like Video games, books, comics, and music for example.
Norithics
5 years, 8 months ago
And much more common to be abused by someone who isn't a pedophile. All of these things stack up together to paint a very different picture than the one commonly portrayed.
Jasiven
5 years, 8 months ago
Things the right ignores, right there. And, to be fair, most of humanity. It's all "Oh no, pedophiles! *lumping abusers in with harmless people*"
doomcup
5 years, 8 months ago
I'm glad you took the time to think all this through. I don't think I could have; I'd have rejected it out of hand. Thanks for being better than me, and thus spurring me to be better too.
Delquea
5 years, 8 months ago
It funny because I made this argument many times in the past. People were in deep rooted denial I gave up bothering to explain.
Nothing will change in the short run and things will actively become much worse in the long run.
Not help by the fact a US State Attorney once openly admitted they crack down on drawn works cos its easier than going after people who engage in the real thing.
deleter
5 years, 8 months ago
OMFG, not this again... If you're gonna nuke your gallery, gimme a heads up so I can save my favorites.
Norithics
5 years, 8 months ago
You might try reading the thing.
deleter
5 years, 8 months ago
I did. Cub porn is not an excuse for pedophilia. Some fucked up shit happened to me as a child and I'm not repeating those actions. It's called therapy, people.
YukiAkuma
5 years, 8 months ago
If you read it then why did you get the impression he'd ever delete his gallery?

Hell, he made a journal a couple of weeks ago that was directly against the idea of deleting your past mistakes to make yourself look completely pure and innocent.
deleter
5 years, 8 months ago
If YOU read the journal, there was a hypothetical deletion of certain art. I would like a notification before any deletion of any content is planned so I can save said content accordingly.
Norithics
5 years, 8 months ago
That was a general hypothetical of all cub art everywhere being deleted.
deleter
5 years, 8 months ago
My statement remains.
Norithics
5 years, 8 months ago
You do you, weird guy.
xephion
5 years, 8 months ago
you are right but....

there is the problem that is the reason all these not real problems becomes problems society needs to demonize something the same thing has happened for thousands of years, it happen to marihuana a legal drug (that yes it can create addiction but not even close as how smoking does and honestly all medical drugs or most of the strongest ones can create addiction) that was demonized by the us president to make people hate mexicans (since the immigration problem or that what they called it was very relevant back then too)... im not joking that was a real thing society cannot blame themselves for their problems so they demonized things that are not problems to try to please the masses meanwhile that give them time to either ignore the real problem or try to solve the problem that is not easy to solve (very rarely they do). demonizing on the other hand is so much easier than actually fixing the problem.
SexyBigEars69
5 years, 8 months ago
Here's my two cents.

Honestly, people look for things to blame for things happening because it's "never their fault".

People killing people -  Blame video games
Someone's life gets fucked because of alcohol - Blame alcohol
People getting fat and having heart disease - Blame McDonalds
People getting depressed - Blame social media
People causing in car crashes because of cell phone use - Blame the cell phone
Committing bestiality - Blame furry porn

You get the idea... The point is that cub/loli/shota porn is being blamed for something that has been going on for decades. This
just happens to be another "tool" for grooming.

With that said, instead of blaming a couple of drawn art, you gotta blame the parents for not teaching internet safety about this kind of thing to their children.
Delicious
5 years, 8 months ago
This little internal conflict has been...not in great amount, but at least one of the reasons I've pushed away from Inkbunny to focus more on my personal life for the last few months.  It seemed like something I could just tackle later on, as opposed to factoring in the additional stress of considering the options for the future of...drawing.

The argument you've made helps quite a bit; I'd like to joke that it just incentivizes further depravity in content, though when you think of the role in society a loli/shota artist plays in that situation, it kinda leaves a janitorial tinge.
 I suppose that kinda makes sense since we play with the extra filthy stuff.
Norithics
5 years, 8 months ago
Yeah! Basically.
I mean that's what community is, at the end of the day. Whether you bake cookies or make filth, building and being mindful of the network of people you exist within is the same. I don't want or need approval from people on the outside- I just want to prevent bad things from happening to good people.
Seth65
5 years, 8 months ago
A flip of your thought experiment: Would finding offenders be easier if there were no rules on cub porn? Just draw and post as much as you want, it's every bit as equal as the currently accepted stuff. Would the flood foster that sense of community and encourage people to speak out, or does it just build a haystack for a needle to get lost in?
Norithics
5 years, 8 months ago
Well that's exactly it- when people who do cub are in the general population, they're seen by people who don't, and are therefore more scrutinizing. The idea is that the community then has a better information network to work off of and you can at the very least investigate better.
MaximilianUltimata
5 years, 8 months ago
And that doesn't even consider the fact that most offenders are already close to the targeted child and a large majority of the time a relative.

There's a lot of chaff and grave misconceptions surrounding pedophilia and sexual abuse in general, but this particular vein boils down to this general stigma surrounding pornography as a whole and an underlying and persistent mentality across all of humanity that an accurate estimation of the world's status can be made on immediate optics alone; if you can't see it, it's not there. It's snowing outside, therefore, global warming is a myth. It's night outside, therefore, the sun is a hoax. There's an endless ocean of magma some miles beneath our feet at all times, but most people never think about that because they can't see it.

It's easy to point to pictures of five year old puppyfurs getting double penetrated and claim that it causes real abuse, but banning it is not going to solve the problem you accuse it of; you could ban wafer biscuits for the same effect. All you are doing is getting rid of the optics that make you think of it and creating an even bigger problem in the process. This is the exact same thing that happened during Prohibition (barring for the moment the drunken domestic abuse problems at the time).

Getting rid of cub porn (or porn in general) and thinking it will cut down or get rid of sexual abuse is just sweeping the problem under the rug. A person who is prepared to commit such abuse will not be deterred because porn is banned; it will happen regardless, and they'll groom the child another way (see: wafer biscuits). You are right; it's far more important to teach people and children alike to be vigilant and responsible and to not stigmatize sex so that they will be afraid of coming forward if and when they do get abused.
moyomongoose
5 years, 8 months ago
The old, "Devil made me do it", excuse.
I believe it was Jeffery Dahmer, who's attorney tried to convince the court that the pornography industry made Dahmer commit those murders.

The idea that cub porn causes child molesters to get triggered falls into that same folly of Dahmer's defense attorney, and that cop-out, "the Devil made me do it".  
KNIFE
5 years, 8 months ago
I think people tried getting rid of something they thought would stop German immigration in the early 1900's...what was that again...OH yeah..ALCOHOL aka PROHIBITION!

 

Learn from our mistakes?  FUCK no!
FoxyDean
5 years, 8 months ago
That was an enlightening read. I don't have a dog in that particular race, so it's not something I've ever really given any amount of thought to. But everything you're saying here seems to make pretty good sense to me.
ElfenSciuridae
5 years, 8 months ago
I have been an active online furry since the mid 90s and a furry long before since then.

In looking at the Porn industry and the various genres thereof, it is Rule 34 - if it is out there, there will be porn of it. In that, such material, porn or not, will be used as such to lure the innocent into it. Hell, as a teenager growing up in the 70s/80s, I remember there was Cartoon Porn with the famous characters - Popeye, Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, and so on and so forth! This is nothing new.

As for those who claim that such material was used to lure them, it might as well be true. It does happen. But the fault is not yours, even as a creator of the material. The fault is that of those scumbags that would use such art to lure the innocent.

Think of it this way, if somebody is lured into a car and has had various sexual actions done to them that would amount to a crime, would you blame the car manufacturer? Apparently some people would.

An artist creates in order to create to communicate an idea. Whether that idea is about money, power, sex, what ever - it demonstrates the expression of ideas. And as you know, there are many out there do not agree with the ideas of others and prefer them to be silences. Do not think that somebody out there is taking your work to influence the young and innocent to do their bidding - that is going to be done whether it is your work or somebody else's works. This is why we can not have nice things.
Kupok
5 years, 8 months ago
I am glad you are seeking answers through as many angles as possible. I am in no position to be able to approach this subject with any amount of objectivity.
Kittymew
5 years, 8 months ago
Yeah I can get behind this. Good shit.
TheGreyWolverine
5 years, 8 months ago
"we're weird that way" Yes, very true
TermiteTerror
5 years, 8 months ago
For me at the end of the day, fictional work stays fiction. Anything can be persuasive or have influence over others, good or bad. That never means artwork can decide for people's actions though. There will always be bad people regardless of the subject of their interests.
TheDJTC
5 years, 8 months ago
The second case scenario reminds me of when I was younger cuz no one ever gave out their age or well, any information for fear of the internet boogeyman
8jj3
5 years, 8 months ago
Censorship always has the opposite effect. If I see someone has purposely hidden something, I'm automatically more interested. We can't help ourselves, it's our nature.
pyrostinger
5 years, 8 months ago
You make some really good points, but... man. Cub porn continues to skeeve me the fuck out. The only solace I get is that I KNOW it's fiction, and that no actual children were harmed in the making of it. Your art in particular is easy to disassociate with the Real Thing, since it's not only 1) fake kids 2) furries but 3) you lean way hard into fantastic proportions, giving ostensible children ridiculous breasts, asses, and/or dicks.

Do I wish cub porn disappeared? Kinda. There are days when I see some stuff and I'm... super uncomfortable about it. But largely I subscribe to the notion that it's not really harming folks, and some even picture themselves in the role of the children rather than that of the adults in the picture, and that has a therapeutic effect. And honestly, if actual pedophiles are choosing to wank it to cub/loli/shota porn rather than actually going out and doing this in the real, I would much, much, MUCH rather this be the case.

Additionally, I haven't been convinced that there's any sort of through line between the enjoyment of cub/loli/shota stuff and actually preying on children.
DiogenesShandor
5 years, 8 months ago
More importantly, the people worried about cub art being used for grooming are just tilting at windmills to begin with.
Relee
5 years, 8 months ago
I've always cut off erotic relationships with folks when they revealed they were underage, but I've met a few 'adults' over the years who weren't. There are some pretty smart and yiff-hungry kids out there.
skyboxmonster
5 years, 8 months ago
Yes this is a major issue. as i said in my comment below
LordTronimator
5 years, 8 months ago
Oof. I honestly don't buy this sort of thing for a second. Cub art doesn't "groom" people into becoming pedophiles. If they were going to become pedophiles, it was going to happen no matter what. Cub art had nothing to do with it. It's just a scapegoat like... blaming video games for people becoming violent. Video games had nothing to do with it. It had everything to do with the individual and how they were raised. The way I see it? It's still completely harmless and those who become pedophiles don't do so because of art of cute, underaged animal people exploring their sexualities. It's because they were already fucked in the head to begin with.
skyboxmonster
5 years, 8 months ago
Why do I always end up in the opposite extreme.

I had a 14 year old. BEGGING ME. to become his boyfriend. throwing lines at me like "Gender shouldn't matter if you love someone" and "age is just a number" like a reverse gay-pedo.

I had to keep telling him over and over that I was not Gay/bi or a pedo. and blocked him
he found me 2 years later and asked it all over again. I said there was no change and I blocked him again.

I cant imagine how much trouble kids like that can cause or get into.

heck 2 days ago i found a another 14 year old stalking a friend of mine. he made 4 accounts on FA to follow him. I reported each one and got them all banned because he was a dumbass and did nothing to hide who he was.

now i hear he is on Eka's. ill have to find and report him there too.
Khzhak
5 years, 8 months ago
This isn't just furry stuff, or only with the prevalence of the internet.  I had this girl chasing me for a while, we worked at Blockbuster together.  I was like "I'm 21, you're 16.  Get back to me once you turn 18, and we'll see."  I moved a couple months later, she's 37 now, I haven't heard word number one from her since I left that job.  And no, we never did anything past me turning around, I elbowed her in the boob by accident, she tried to seduce me from that, there were customers around anyhow.  I never saw her wearing anything more revealing than a button down shirt with only the top button open.

There was one other time, but she was the older one.  So I don't think it counts for this.
Nezumi
5 years, 7 months ago
I'm vaguely wondering where the implicit "part one" is and what it said. But these are similar to the conclusions I'd drawn even without knowing the specific stories, so... yay?
doomcup
5 years, 7 months ago
Kittymew
1 year, 9 months ago
Cub art is a pretty uncommon vector compared to things like Minecraft. So if we're going after cubs again, are we about to see some big shakeups...oh wait no it's just more hate politics.

They don't care about the children, sweetie. If anything, we do more than most. I've gotten a few kids out of bad situations.
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