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Syaokitty

Furry Entitlement

I frankly, am very over this communities weird sense of entitlement to art. Artists launch so many EASY ways for people to support them and they support themselves, and people STILL steal and leak content, and still demand that artists should pump out content for free. Every "Excuse" i hear has some air of bullshit to it.

"I can't afford it." That doesn't justify stealing, i can't afford a car but that doesn't mean it'd be okay if i stole one? same with a movie, a video game or anything else. if you can't afford it, you simply can't have it and will have to live with it.

"they paywall it!" That's the artists prerogative, you can not like it. But that again, doesn't justify stealing.

"Patreon is supposed to be a tip jar!" no, that's wrong, some artists can use it that way, but that is NOT the purpose of patreon, Ko-fi is a tip jar, and MOST artists have one.

I could go on and on but at the end of the day, the point is no "excuse" justifies stealing. There are SO many ways to support most artists, I for example, have a patreon, Where i post content every week, (Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays on top of other bonus content.) A Ko-Fi which is a tip jar where you can support me with a few bucks, a Red bubble store where you can get shirts, stickers among TONS of other physical goods you can buy. AND even a digital store where you can buy comics and art packs!
and of course there's the commission.

Artists in this community aren't rolling in dough, we aren't celebs who can't buy that private island because you leaked a drawing, we're not getting to eat, have gas or pay a phone bill because you had to have our hours of work for free.

I may seem mad but i am 100% justified in that anger, as someone who literally just spent two months homeless, i still worked hard on drawing art for my patrons who do support me. I output a full illustration a week, among other bonus content, we have lives and we love drawing content and we love the support from fans of our content, Thankfully i'm in a house now but without those dollars i got from patreon, and the tons of other avenue's i have things would be a LOT worse.

If you're really a fan of art, and artists, respect them. Don't go to *Those* sites and don't leak content.

*Addition*

adding this preemptively, as i worried it might come off like i'm generalizing, obviously i don't mean EVERYONE in the community, there are tons of people who throw all their money they can at art and artist they love, and those people are the life blood along with artists of this community and we are SO lucky to have generous people like you.  

**Addition**

As of today i have locked the comments and am done discussing this journal, i'm leaving it up as i'm not trying to "hide" it. But some of the responses i'm getting and seeing elsewhere are hurtful and disrespectful and while most were kind and positive the 20 hours this happened has actually made me want to consider a break from social media in my entire life. I'm not. So while civil discussions were happening please continue them privately on your own. Thank you.
Viewed: 160 times
Added: 6 years, 1 month ago
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rick2tails
6 years, 1 month ago
theres some lazy stupid people in the fandom. i dont like to think how much money ive spent on pictures. thousands and thousands of dollars but at least i can say that has supported many artists and i can do what i want with my money i work hard for it. people go "wah! I want lots of porn for free and i want it the exact way i want it and i want it now!"
eeveefan
6 years, 1 month ago
lol its cause people are spoiled and they think their still in the age of the dinosaurs. its sad that people expect free stuff out of others like art. art isnt free unless the artist gives out freebies but even then its not that often.
Syaokitty
6 years, 1 month ago
I understand people like, not being able to afford it, i mean art (furry art especially) is a luxury. But people forget i think that a single piece can take hours, days or even weeks and viewers consume it in SECONDS. It doesn't seem all that selfish that we ask for dollars, in a majority of people who run patreons cases, a SINGLE dollar. Even something like a freebie, cost time which we could be using to get/do commission work or other things. I am very happy for the people who do support me, do i wish it was more? of course! I do think some people are very spoiled and think the skills we learn and art we make belongs to them. It's very sad.
eeveefan
6 years, 1 month ago
its a shame that people do that. there are artists i watch who only do patreon to accept commissions and requestd which i hate because id never be able to get an art from them but i dont go and steal from them, what they do is their decision and i have to deal with it.

ive herd about tons of people hating on patreon to which i think is just absolutely stupid. but meh, what can ya do?

i hope things dont get to bad for you though. just ignore the idiots who bark nonsense at you saying you should make art for free, were not in the stone age anymore, things cost money and the only way you get free art is if the artist wantd to do it. some people are so spoiled dontcha think?
TwoTails
6 years, 1 month ago
That term applies to you too.
Optimistic opinions of how the markets work doesn't make it so.
You complain about not earning enough, well nor do I. But the reason is we aren't popular enough nor even good enough (yet) to be worth stealing. That is the marketplace.
There is a difference between friends & fans. Most fans don't know the artists therefore have no real personal connection, most have little reason to care because you/we are just products. Most can lose interest & even turn on artists for even the shakiest of reasons.

When someone starts only producing for the richest customers, they are telling most of their fans "fuck you"..
So resulting retaliation & disrespect is fully their own fault.

Concept of stealing isn't simple.
I can't afford important professional software, so I often have to use "free" versions, otherwise I would've had even less chance to do anything in life.
Fairness is the key, and it doesn't mean what only one side wants.
Looting poor food producers isn't ethical, but nor is allowing wealthy food corporations to hoard & even destroy food because they want to drive up costs.
Syaokitty
6 years, 1 month ago
what term applies to me too? Furry Entitlement?

1. i don't consider myself a furry but i wouldn't blame you or anyone for not knowing that. I do love and care for this community that has helped me grow a lot as an artist and has supported me (i'd easily be a lot worse out without it)

2. I'd hardly call myself entitled, in what sense even? i don't expect artists to give me art for free, if i could support tons of artists via patreon,etc. i 100% would and plan to (i even have a list written down of all the people i plan to support on those avenues once i can afford it)
But thats the difference, i don't use my lack of funs to justify stealing from small idependent creators.

I personally have had my work leaked/stolen a number of times, and it HAS hurt my bottom line. Patreon and all these other avenues are shaky at best, Anyone who runs a patreon knows that they live and die month to month by many single dollar donations.

And just because i'm say, a fan of an artist and not their friend, it doesn't mean i treat them like some kind of subhuman machine who only spits out content i enjoy. I understand that people who i follow/follow me lack a personal connection but i feel we all have a creative one, whether it be that they like the things i create or vice versa.

Creating avenues to make money of something you enjoy doing and likely talented at shouldn't be shamed as "Greedy" and the many other words i see artists who run patreons get slung at them.

i'd argue that the huge majority of artists who run patreons and such things aren't like, say a big corporation who sure, don't like being stolen from but won't go out of business over it likely. but Artists like myself (and many others) it DOES hurt our way of life and not only do we get shamed, and hated on for wanting to maintain that way of life but now we get it from being upset that the content we spend hours creating is getting stolen too? that's crazy.
TwoTails
6 years, 1 month ago
1-denial, you engage more than rare offhand comments or art with furries, you are a furry, period.
2-blame others, speak for others, you imply you should be making tons of money on art, that the thieves are taking most of that. No.
  We are nowhere near the levels of those that make like 5k/month, that's what exponential means - a B-grade artist usually can't earn up to half as much as an A-grade artist, even being worth 1/4 of that seemingly small grade difference is cocky.
  Even some of my garbage ended up on those unofficial paysites, I didn't really care, if anything it was almost a complement, though the line was they were shady companies directly profiting rather than leaking, so those should be & do get eliminated.
So you don't speak for me on this, I have a Patreon too, I'm not doing well, but I take the high ground and admit it's because I'm not good enough, I don't blame it on the poor & call everybody thieves.

Thee main problem with Patreon that people don't understand is, it alienates fans when artists move the bulk of their art behind a paywall.
It is the same as people having a favorite TV show, but then it is moved solely to some paysite that many people cannot use or afford (region issues, credit/debit not available everywhere)
Artists have the right to do this, yes, but many people have the right to kill all the wildlife in their yard, it doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Why do so many of you people not get this?
Syaokitty
6 years, 1 month ago
I kinda decide if i'm a furry or not? I am active in the community but drawing or engaging with it does not "make me one"

Blaming thieves for being thieves isn't really something i feel all that bad about. I don't imply i should be making "Tons of money" would i like to be? of course, who wouldn't. Should i be making "5k a month" i'd love that but again i am not NEARLY that popular and i get that.

Its a lack of respect for the artist of said work, When my stuff was leaked i saw it was that they didn't respect me enough to WAIT (i post literally all patreon content FOR FREE a month after its on patreon)

I didn't intend to be speaking FOR YOU, i was sort of just speaking as an artist on how i feel and how i assume most other artists would feel, obviously not every artist would agree with me.

I'm hardly blaming the poor, i AM poor and completely understand that, but again being poor doesn't justify theft especially on the indie/freelance level. If i was making "5k a month" i honestly probably wouldn't mind or bother being mad about my content being leaked. most of the popular artists dont and that makes sense.

I'm not going to apologize for wanting to make a living off of something i've spent my whole life learning how to do, going to school for and wanting as a career.
TwoTails
6 years, 1 month ago
At the most basic, I am saying you came off as kinda presumptuous, dissing facts you dont agree with rather than factoring them in.
Stuff gets leaked, no point in declaring war on the clouds because it rains. As a whole, something that becomes more of a problem than benefit usually gets dealt with appropriately, but you can't judge that yourself.
For one thing, even if your art was leaked, how many of them looked for it specifically to avoid paying when they could have?
The probability is very low, you aren't that well known, anybody that ended up with it probably wasn't a serious fan anyway & merely stumbled on to it. So there is a possibility of that bringing in a few fans that might want commissions or such.

I do know, the few times I peer into there, is to see what these people are doing. Only once in a blue moon do I end up taking something, and even then it's usually out of spite (some popufur that only posts censored versions on their galleries of something I'd normally see for free, like the double whammy greed of exclusive paywalled paid commissions (in which are usually of copyrighted characters, so major hypocrisy there anyway)).
So, I tend not to take what I can't afford nor need for valid reasons though I do intend to buy later IF the artists/makers remain humble, but to those that go greedy asshole, I have no sympathy for, plus they risk getting dumped by everyone hard someday.

Like, I have not played ANY new games in almost a decade, I've only recently partially played some of those I missed out on around 2009, but even then it felt more like I had to see what was missed, oddly haven't really enjoyed them.
GreenReaper
6 years, 1 month ago
With regards to the "I'm not a furry" bit: I'm reminded of this comic, and others like it. :-)

You may have your opinion about whether what you do counts as "being furry". The opinions of third-parties may differ. And that's OK, unless you try to say "my opinion must be right because we're talking about me".

In practice, though, I tend to agree with you, if only because you picked almost entirely non-furry art here. No true furry would have avoided featuring their furry works on a furry site if at all possible. ;-)
Syaokitty
6 years, 1 month ago
I picked mainly not furry art (and porn) because 1.that was posted in places i don't like posting porn. (The only porn images are cropped) and 2. I also picked the pieces I'm most proud of. Those comics are quite funny. But i feel I'm allowed to decide if I'm "furry" or not.
Lucareon
6 years, 1 month ago
I've read your reports on your situation, and it's things like that that make me weary of the way I treat artists.  I always try to be as positive as possible.  Like I said on Patreon, I hope that things are ready to improve for you.  And I really do appreciate the commissions you've done for me.  I'd never post them anywhere without your permission. :3
Syaokitty
6 years, 1 month ago
Honestly posting commissions you bought is 100% totally fine, as is posting art i post anywhere for free, you just have to credit and not edit. but the patreon stuff i feel is for them and its rude to me and them to steal that stuff and post it elsewhere (especially when i post it for free eventually anyway)
GrandAdmiral
6 years, 1 month ago
While we're on the subject, you should draw me free art that I will be unnecessarily critical of, but I have no money, so just do it for the exposure. :/

It's not like artists are people who need money to live and are actually trying to use the skill they've poured countless hours into to make that money.

Fuck, paywall the shit out of your art. Your time and effort is worth money. You might as well make something off your hard work.
Syaokitty
6 years, 1 month ago
This. Thank you!
batbat
6 years, 1 month ago
Lol paywall.

XD people trying to make money off of porn on the internet is like Eskimos trying to sell each-other snow.

Either you're selling to the Eskimo King who wants everything, or people who are either too stupid to find something of more use to pay for or because they basically have everything being the son of the Eskimo king XD

It can be done but..... damn

I've tried patreon on 3 seperate occasions and was disappointed each time. You get artists who were already producing art for free start these up, make a bunch of bullshit promises about getting special content.... NOPE.

The only art I'll ever be paying for will be of me, my mate/friends, or of godzilla sitting in tokyo bay busting ass under water creating a tidal wave or two.... cause that's hilarious.

Seriously there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pictures out there... why the fuck do I wanna try and "support" people who don't make good on the shit half of the time anyway?

Hell I've even commisioned a fairly popular artist Zen when I was at a convention. "oh i should have it done by the end of the con", "oh you should get it a week from now"...... never fucking came. I had to go and ask this artist for a fucking refund after they put it off for a few months, finally finishing and "sending it" only for it to never arrive. Sucks cause I really like their art and would of likely gotten more work from them.... but nope, too much hassle and frustration.

Of all the things you can spend money on for enjoyment, let alone enjoyment with others, art is one of the very last things.

"hmmm i've got some disposable income, what should I spend it on? oh I know, i'll have someone doodle me a cool little picture on a scrap of paper"

Different folks different strokes I suppose.
GreenReaper
6 years, 1 month ago
Ah, the good old "you wouldn't download a car!" ploy. :-)

Overall I think this is a good argument for a basic income. Arts can benefit a lot of people. If you hide it behind a paywall, the benefit to society is less. If you don't, it may not get made at all. The capitalist model is beneficial - but perhaps not optimal.

From a site owner's perspective, I totally support the right to decide how to monetize their art, and the only qualms I have are things like when there is a falling out and an artist uses their copyright to remove art that has actually been paid for from people's galleries, either because they don't like the person, the art, or the site it's on. (Courts in my jurisdiction have found an implied license for use by commissioners.)
Syaokitty
6 years, 1 month ago
Like an artist wanting a commission removed? Yah that's a sticky situation. But that's not this. I'm aware people will leak and steal. Its the people in the community complaining or being mean to artists for using services like patreon for revenue. The smaller percent of the community who feel like artists should do it "for exposure" or "not for money but because they like to draw" And for some That's totally enough but i don't think it's fair to give grief to those trying to survive.
GreenReaper
6 years, 1 month ago
Part of it is the natural frustration of seeing something beyond your reach, that others can get but you cannot. There is often a lack of empathy - and, yes, a desire to get something for nothing. Often - but not always - this comes from younger people who have not worked yet themselves.

Some people have even found that a combination of cajoling and denigration can get them free art from certain emotionally-vulnerable artists, and they exploit this.

In a slightly more positive sense, some people may also have a "noble" view of art as a calling which should be unsullied by material concerns. But I don't think this is the motivation behind most such comments, and in any case it is unrealistic.

As you say, some artists really do "give art away" at low or no cost because they are in a position to do so, being independently wealthy or (more commonly) in study, or supported by others. This is not bad per se - rather, to be celebrated - but it can set an expectation that every artist should be effectively giving their work away. (And this applies in other spheres, too - I work for Inkbunny "for free", but that does not mean I expect everyone to do website administration for free. Especially if it is administration on a project that I want and they are not inherently interested in!)
CodyFox
6 years, 1 month ago
I support a few artists on Patreon and I certainly understand Syaokitty's point about people stealing/leaking art that is not meant to be free. Totally get those points.

However, there is a different issue I think has come up more recently where I think people purchasing art or contributing to Patreon are possibly seen as more of a potential revenue stream and not so much as people (who may also be barely making ends meet, but still are willing to contribute.) This definitely came up when Patreon attempted to change its payment structure by increasing costs to the patrons. It was framed as "contributors need more percentage of revenue, Patreon won't pay it, so patrons pay more money. Everyone wins!!!" Somehow patrons were completely out of any consideration of having any value in the decision, almost like they were just an endless stream of money and who cares if they need to work an extra hour at the factory to absorb the costs of continuing to support the artists they like/care about. They can take it!

But I see some posts lately about how prices of everything needs to go up, particularly with the fursuits. There is a recent thread on Twitter about how commissioners need to stop complaining about $10,000.00 fursuits, like "they just don't value things/want everything for free." Yet, the people making those claims don't seem to consider just how long someone has to work at some soul crushing job at the factory or fast food restaurant or wherever, just to afford the $5,000.00 fursuit. It's like, whelp, what's another 5 grand! Evil fursuit commissioners don't want to allow fursuit maker to eat, so they won't work another few months of overtime to cough up 5 thousand more dollars! Bad people! They need to suck it up and get that money!"

I feel like there are large parts of the furry community that are maybe not fully understanding the value of money. It might be because the community in general is younger, and so a lot of furries have not yet spent years of their lives slaving away in some corporate machine, or some depressing service job, so they don't necessarily understand what it means for someone to hand over the proceeds from such efforts.

I love commissioning stuff. I've spent tons of money on art and someday I'd like to have a fursuit. But everyone needs to fully understand the "blood, sweat and tears" that produces money, and that those who give money have to suffer more in the machine that is the capitalist economy in order to give more money. Although I use Patreon to a limited extent and make donations there, I also think the Patreon system has unfortunately created some unrealistic expectations on what can be done there. (This is just due to there being limited resources on the Patron side, so there will only be so many artists pulling in huge dollar amounts per month.) I'll continue to give money on Patreon, but I have realized that it is mainly a donation, except for those artists who give some form of commissions in exchange for Patreon payments.
GreenReaper
6 years, 1 month ago
Patrons are not Patreon's primary customers; rather, it is the content-creators (and others who are being supported), to whom they provide a fundraising and content-distribution service. Of course it was foolish to imagine they could just load more fees onto end-users, but I can see why they weren't first on the list of stakeholders.

As for fursuits: supply almost inevitably increases to match demand. There has been a huge explosion in fursuit building and if anything I believe prices have come down significantly from what they were. Which is one reason we see so many fursuiters now. Heck, Walmart has $20 heads in the bargain bin, which just didn't exist before.

There are always going to be huge prices at the very top of the market - I remember a manticore commission a decade ago that cost ~$12,000, back when that was more money. It was awesome, but I don't know many people who would have paid that.

Some do make huge amounts of money - or just have it - and maybe don't understand how much it takes for other people to earn it. (Though at the same time many jobs require significant study beforehand, so the stereotype isn't necessarily accurate.)

But a fursuit is also a luxury - especially at these prices. You simply wouldn't ever expect to get a Lamborghini if you were working a service job. That may be true to a lesser extent for some fursuit-builders as well.
CodyFox
6 years, 1 month ago
I agree that supply and demand will likely sort out the fursuit situation. My main complaint is about people saying that if you are a commissioner that won't pay $10,000.00 for a fursuit, that means you are an evil bastards who wants fursuit creators to starve or just wants everything for free. It's a ridiculous mindset,  and I think speaks to the larger issue I was mentioning about people not understanding how much money that is and what it takes to have that while supporting oneself or a family. Yes, some fursuit makers are around minimum wage. But so are most of their potential customers. If someone wants to declare that they are the Lamborgini of fursuits and don't come to them unless you are a rich furry, that's fine. But I don't think the average consumer should be shamed for not agreeing to such prices.
CodyFox
6 years, 1 month ago
Also, regarding Patreon not considering patrons as its primary customers, that really speaks to just how bizarre that system is. It means that they are being paid by someone other than their customers. There are some professions where that is acceptable I suppose, but I know in mine personally that would generally be a big no no, as well as most financial professions. It's also why insurance companies have armies of lobbyists and lawyers.

I guess maybe I am looking at Patreon as more of a fiduciary in that sense because I do see it as a charity essentially. There's no legal remedy forcing content creators to do anything for the money that comes in. Patreon is merely a middle man taking a cut out of donations. That's why I think it is strange for them to so easily diss the Patrons.
GreenReaper
6 years, 1 month ago
That's really not all that unusual. I mean Inkbunny is kinda in the same boat - our features and resources are most-heavily used by commissioning artists, so you think it'd be them sending in the big donations, right? A few of them, for sure; but ~85% of the time it's regular folk who just happen to have money to spend on supporting the community. (And that's really cool. Imagine how it'd suck if artists had to decide whether to pay $5/month for us to host their art beyond 1280px, or to be eligible for placement on Popular.)

I'm not saying it was smart for Patreon to try to soak patrons for the fees, just that they're not Patreon's main "customers". If they're a fiduciary it's more on behalf of the content-creators for whom they may hold funds for disbursal.
CodyFox
6 years, 1 month ago
There are a few ways you could look at that last point. If they are holding the money for disbursement, then they could be considered as akin to a trustee, in which case their "customer" is the person who set up the trust. It's why beneficiaries of trusts generally can't simply fire the trustee or demand to receive all of the money immediately. The person who created it has the power, even after they are dead (in which case theiy maintain so called "dead hand control" far beyond the grave.)

If however you think of them more as a bank, then they their master is the person owning the account, no matter who deposited money into it. I see them more as the former.
GreenReaper
6 years, 1 month ago
Heck, I just wish PayPal was regulated as a bank. :-p
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