This ties into my journal about the recent star wars movie. So I'm filling up this space here with text so people that see the journal in their feed don't see the spoilery parts. Is this enough? I dunno. Lets add a bit more text here. Lalalala! Blah Blah Bluh! I think we are past the preview window now. Let's begin. _______________________________________________________________________
There are certain plot devices that sort of seize a whole setting once they are implemented and only work if a show/movie/series revolves around them.
Time travel is one of these. Once you introduce time travel to a setting basically every struggle becomes meaningless as it can be undone in no time at all (sorry the pun). It can work if care is taken (such as severely limiting the effect or availability of said time travel) or if the whole plot revolves around it (Back to the Future comes to mind).
Now coming back to the recent Star Wars movie. I have hinted at the thing in the previous journal here: https://inkbunny.net/j/303062 The scene I hinted at is of course the scene that the rebels turn one of their ships into a kinetic projectile. Basically they defeated a whole fleet with something that pretty much any ship has installed as a basic function (except for the cheapest of ships designed to work as part of a larger support vessel).
So let's sum up the losses:
Rebel Side: 1 ship about 6 km in length
Empire Side: 1 ship about 60 km in length at least half a dozen of capital ships probably as large as the Rebel ship
You can see the problem here. Assembling large fleets of anything or even building a death star or a death planet are meaningless if you can lose it to any garbage ship (or get so damaged, extensive repair is necessary). And I do not think for a moment that nobody in this setting has ever tried something like this. The rebels have been plenty desperate many times. Someone would have tried this ages ago when FTL was invented.
The warfare would mostly revolve around concealing the position of your fleet. Engagement would come with FTL torpedoes nuking a known position before your own ships come in. The larger something is, the larger the target painted on it. So fleets would tend to large numbers rather than large sizes. Anything stationary is pretty much out.
In the clean up afterwards, there might be small ships duking it out dog fights, but apart from that engagements would be like this. "Sir the enemy has gotten hold if our position. We need to jump to lightsp-" *Large boom, everyone dies*
Now how will Star Wars handle this? Good way to handle this: They come up with a good reason why this the lightspeed ram is not used more often (such as severe drawbacks/limitations. I have not been able to come up with anything good, but Star Trek has one with Omega Particles that destroy the ability for FTL travel in a huge area.) Or from now on the ram is used much more often and changes galactic warfare forever.
Bad way to handle this (which is what I think will happen): Everyone will simply ignore this event and never attempt anything like it ever again.
"from now on the ram is used much more often and changes galactic warfare forever." I like this option the most. Innovation SHOULD change the world forever.
"from now on the ram is used much more often and changes galactic warfare forever." I like this opti
There is one thing you seemed to miss about Star Wars FTL and this situation. It takes a bit for the FTL drive to "warm up" and the ship has to be essentially stationary while its happening. In this specific instance the First Order fleet thought that Holdo was trying to bluff them and ignored her until she suddenly pulled a 180 and before they could react she zipped through them. Plus the ships were VERY close to each other, within a couple ship lengths, making lining up the shot very easy. In most combat situations this would be impractical, if the "kinetic missile" was far enough away that it wouldn't be blasted out of the sky while warming up its FTL then the enemy target would have time to maneuver out of the path. Though you are right about kinetic missiles like this being useful against large relatively stationary targets like bases on planets or huge space stations like the Death Star. Keep in mind your idea for a kinetic missile would be VERY expensive in universe, it would have to not only waste a perfectly good FTL drive system that I imagine is pretty hard to make, but you'd also need the mass of a decently sized ship to kill a properly shielded target. Ironically given their financial situation this idea would much better suit the first order than the rebels since they have far more resources to waste.
There is one thing you seemed to miss about Star Wars FTL and this situation. It takes a bit for th
I don't recall Star Wars ships have to be stationary to go to light speed. I think it was actually very hard to go to light speed from standing and only experienced pilots could do that (like Han Solo when he jumped out the cargo hold).
About aiming a ship to use as a weapon I can't say how hard that is, as it would require a lot more detail about how the engine and the computers work that calculate the jump. It might be inaccurate enough to be impractical, but I'm sure the losing side would at least try such a maneuver even if the chances are low. They have used plans with low probability of success in the past ;3
And about the cost, it is relative. Losing one ship is certainly hard blow to ones resources (especially for the Rebel side) the potential destruction could cost the other side multitudes of the sacrificed resources. In the scene from the movie the Rebels destroyed easily 1000 times the resources they had sacrificed. And yes, the First Order could much easier use this tactic than the Rebels as they have much more resources to waste.
I don't recall Star Wars ships have to be stationary to go to light speed. I think it was actually v
I didn't mean totally stationary, I meant relatively speaking, like you have to keep your ship flying in a relatively straight path at a constant speed for at least a few seconds, but now I'm just being pedantic. I think it's also worth noting that although Holdo's maneuver destroyed most of that first order fleet, the giant flagship was cut in half, but survived and was still mostly functional afterwards, perhaps if she centered the hit better to take out the bridge or reactor she could have destroyed it utterly, but that reinforces just how hard it would be to aim effectively.
I didn't mean totally stationary, I meant relatively speaking, like you have to keep your ship flyin
The porn RPG I'm working on with Neokat focuses on time travel, almost exclusively.
Unlike other time-travel oriented stories, knocking up somebody in the past, dynamically affects every future time period, in some way! Major story events also affect history, but... sex is more fun! :P
As for Star Wars? I haven't seen it, and I don't plan to. The prequels were bad enough.
The porn RPG I'm working on with Neokat focuses on time travel, almost exclusively. Unlike other ti
Ramships were used quite often in the now defunct Expanded Universe. During the Battle of Centerpoint in the "Showdown at Centerpoint" novel in particular, they were used in order to fight against the Bakura Defense Fleet.
Also, the drawback to the use of hyperspace speeds as a weapon is that not only the Galactic Republic, but the Imperial Fleets made extensive use of Interdictor-class cruisers, which effectively cut off the ability to go into hyperspace in a very large area around the ship. The Bakuran Fleet had technology that allowed them to briefly ignore the effects of an interdiction field, though it was only really used during the Battle of Centerpoint to circumvent a system wide interdiction of the Corellian System.
But since Disney killed the EU, none of that is particularly relevant anymore.
Ramships were used quite often in the now defunct Expanded Universe. During the Battle of Centerpoin
Yes. That would be a good explanation why such a tactic is not used.
However that ship that could follow space ships in hyperspace would have an interdictor installed if it existed. As it seemed the sole purpose was catching fleeing ships.
Yes. That would be a good explanation why such a tactic is not used. However that ship that could f
Personally, what bothered me more is that the rebels and the bad guys were supposed to be in a high-speed chase, which means they would be moving across a huge distance in the galaxy. But in the middle of all that a small ship can separate from them, land on a planet, do a bunch of stuff there then return to the chase and join the battle again. For that to work, the small ship has to be incredibly faster than all the other ships involved in the action because once they left the chase and went to a planet, both fleets would have to be far beyond their reach.
It has been already established that both sides were flying at the maximum speed of their engines. How the hell did Finn and Rose catch up with them after being wandering around a casino and riding alien greyhounds for what looked like a whole day?
Personally, what bothered me more is that the rebels and the bad guys were supposed to be in a high-
Well, a speed boat can accelerate and decelerate faster than a heavily laden cargo ship, and they DID mention the thing about their ships being too heavy to go any faster. They might have some beefy engines, but even they have their limits. And a smaller ship doesn't need quite as powerful engines to go much faster, because it has less mass, so it requires less force to move it. If you slap on bigger engines, you'll end up needing larger fuel tanks and power generator's etc. Like how the Millennium Falcon has had some "special modifications".
As far as being able to catch up, there's hyperspace. That was the whole thing, the rebels could easily hyperspace away, but they were being tracked and the First Order would just catch up to them.
I know some people are annoyed at the chase, and why the First Order didn't just send some ships ahead, through hyperspace, to cut them off. I mean, obviously that would just result in the rebels lol I guess I mean Resistance, jumping away through hyperspace and the First Order having to reposition their fleet to cut them off again... so they didn't bother, because either way the Resistance ships would run out of fuel sooner or later. Presumably, the hyperdrive may use a different fuel than the sub-light engines, and any hyperspace shenanigans would have resulted in the same chase through boring empty space while they stalled for time.
Well, a speed boat can accelerate and decelerate faster than a heavily laden cargo ship, and they DI
The difference between a heavy and a lightweight ship would mean something only if the ships had to land and take off, but once they are in space it would be irrelevant, they would keep a constant acceleration.
Of course, movies are full of violations of the laws of physics. I rolled my eyes during the whole scene where one ship drops bombs on another... what exactly is making the bombs go "down" in zero gravity?
It is also shown that when one ship runs out of fuel it starts slowing down and can be shot by the enemy. In reality, it would continue to move at the same speed with the engines off. Real spacecraft don't fly around with the engines on at all, once they are accelerated to the right speed they can keep moving forever in that direction.
The difference between a heavy and a lightweight ship would mean something only if the ships had to
Yeah. There were a lot things odd with the high-speed chase. Like part of the FO fleet could have just jumped in front cut them off. But both sides seemed to be okay with just trotting along.
Yeah. There were a lot things odd with the high-speed chase. Like part of the FO fleet could have ju
Well... for the rebels at least, it's always the whole problem of actually OBTAINING new ships with a complete, functional hyperdrive engine installed... once you launch one into an enemy ship, or use it like a shotgun into their fleet, you no longer have the ship. For the empire, it would be easy to mass produce FTL capable ships AS missile weapons. The problem for both is that it does result in the almost total destruction of both vessels, which is not always the ideal outcome in many conflicts.
The old EU, and now the Rebels series, did have ships that prevented hyperspace travel. And then there's the whole "mass" thing, which is science stuff beyond my reckoning. lol.
Incidentally, this is basically the whole "wormhole" argument presented in Farscape, and we saw the result of a weaponised wormhole in the end, as opposed to the intermittent use of them to travel through space.
Which reminds me: TELEPORTATION. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, with the Utrom and the Triceratons and the Federation, even in the original comics. Once you have a teleporter, everyone will be afraid that the enemy will use it to teleport nukes directly into your base, and you can't defend against something like that, so you will try to do it first, to wipe out your enemy.
My theory is that nobody does it BECAUSE there are consequences, such as, for example, debris travelling at light speed that could potentially cause devastating destruction somewhere, which you cannot possibly defend against. Remember: "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
Well... for the rebels at least, it's always the whole problem of actually OBTAINING new ships with
It is difficult to argue how exactly it would work as details are missing. It just has to be addressed in some way in the following movie, because it is such a major thing. Ships that can prevent light speed would be one such solution.
And yes, especially for the rebels one ship is a huge resource they would not want to squander. But in certain situations you could get a lot of value out of sacrificing one vessel. Like when you can take out a multitude of enemy ships by sacrificing one of your own.
Light speed debris is also an interesting side effect I had not considered. As long as they give some explanation I will be content. I just don't want them to ignore this event completely.
It is difficult to argue how exactly it would work as details are missing. It just has to be address
There's a few things to be considered here: 1. Hyperdrive seems like it can't be activated automatically because of a specific technological limitation they seem to have in-universe. In fact, anything happening automatically or without manual input doesn't really occur in Star Wars. 2. Droids could do it, but then you're entrusting your whole military effort to droids, and that's not something people seem to want to do. This may be part of the reason for #1. 3. This would be *enormously* expensive. A capital ship ramming another capital ship was crazy damaging, but who's to say a fighter wouldn't just do fractional damage? After all, mass increases force exponentially, rather than additively. 4. If you just knew you could get hyperdrive-rammed at any point, nobody's going to go to war personally, and if they did, it'd all be in swarms of tiny ships.
Awright, a geeky conversation! There's a few things to be considered here: 1. Hyperdrive seems like
1. Hm, I have not thought about it. That seems an oddity of the universe. But couldn't you, build a droid brain into the ship as autopilot? They can build sentient thinking machines, but an autopilot is out the question? Seems a strange combination. 2. The relationship to droids could effect this. But the humans/aliens could be on board till the last moment and then leave shortly before the jump. Also could make for an interesting story if a ram ship computer suddenly decides "I don't wanna die" and goes awol" ^^ 3. Yes. The damage increase/decrease is much likely exponential. But you could build ships specifically for ramming with lots of mass (mostly solid blocks of metal) to have more impact for their size. And it depends on the situation of course. If you are bound to lose a few of your capital ships in an engagement, you might as well sacrifice one preemptively. 4. That is what I was getting at. The larger the ship, the easier to hit. So ship size would be capped at one point to prevent easy hitting.
1. Hm, I have not thought about it. That seems an oddity of the universe. But couldn't you, build a
One thing about plot devices is the old "wait why not use the such-and-such from the other episode?" Prime example is the time turner thingy in Harry Potter. Or in the second last season of Dr Who when he found a common battlefield medical device so powerful it could bring a human back to life and accidentally make them immortal, and about four stories later the doctor's companion died and he was at a loss for what to do.
My prediction regarding the FTL-missile-ship in Star Wars is that either a) no-one ever thought of it before because you need to blow yourself up too or b) people did think of this before but because they nuked themselves and their target no-one ever learned about it.
Also possibly damage is proportional? The smaller rebel ship sort of shot through the target, so maybe a X-Wing FTL-strike is just a bug on the windshield? And I expect that the reason no-one makes unmanned FTL-torpedoes is the calculation time, and/or it is very hit and miss, possibly with a side order of "the torpedo is still small so doesn't wipe out large targets, why do you think they made Star Destroyers so big?"
Having said that, I'd not be surprised if the franchise's solution is "let's not let the rebels get any ships of significant size again".
One thing about plot devices is the old "wait why not use the such-and-such from the other episode?"
It seems unlikely nobody would have ever thought of it before or heard of someone trying.
In the original trilogy a little ship flying at normal speed was able to do so much damage to a capital ship it veered off course and collided into the death star. If you aim at the right place even a tiny ship could do significant damage.
I just hope it is addressed somehow.
Sorry for the lateness. It seems unlikely nobody would have ever thought of it before or heard of s
Shields are the main reason that I think no-one in Star Wars thought about ramming tactics. It seems the design ideology is more defensive. And my best explanation for why no-one in Star Wars ever heard of it before is still that it must have been a lot of cases of mutual destruction, and no-one left to tell the tale.
No worries about the late reply. Shields are the main reason that I think no-one in Star Wars tho
In the case of that particular movie though, there's one character who could have averted everything that went wrong if she had simply told people "The situation looks grim, but there is a plan, for reasons of operational secrecy I can not tell you the details. Trust me, and we will all get through this." Thinking that there was no plan was what got the main characters to hatch their own crackpot scheme which went awry and nearly got the rebellion wiped out.
In the case of that particular movie though, there's one character who could have averted everything
