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Norithics

Sexual Harassment

So I'm sure you've seen the news: Everyone you know and love is a savage gropemonster. There's a camp for people who believe the accusers, and a camp for those who don't. I'm in the former. But I'm actually not here to talk about that. I wanna talk about what it's like to be the perpetrator.

When I was in Middle School, there was a girl in my class with a really nice butt. If I'd had more self-awareness or confidence, I might've also learned that she had a really nice personality, but again, I was in middle school. I obsessed over her body from afar, and in one class, I even sat behind her. She always wore snug shorts, and it drove me crazy. After about three weeks of being in the same class, far in the back, I ever so subtly started groping her. With me knee. Through the hole in the back of the school chair.

This went on for a week. Until finally, with a mix of fear and anger and frustration, she took me aside and said "I, am sick and tired, of your knee."

It was like waking up from a stupor. I felt like I'd been gut-punched. Why had I done this? Why didn't I just talk to her, and get to know her better? This was one of what would become hundreds of times that the sheer force of my hormones would convince me to do something completely out of character for me- I would never again touch someone against their will, but the list of foolish things I'd do would grow and grow.

I want to point out that at this point I had already undergone education about sexual harassment. I'd been told why it was bad and not to do it, and I intended not to. Why, then, did I still do it? It comes down to three reasons:

1. I didn't understand the female experience enough. I had no idea what it was like to be a girl, or the inherent barrage of attention, positive and negative, that being one entails- especially if you're pretty. Had I understood this, I might have been able to empathize with this girl better. I might have had that one extra step there to stop me. But also:

2. I was completely unprepared for how strong hormones are. This is probably the most important thing that we could be explaining to men and boys across the globe. For a certain portion of us- and it is a much larger portion than we might think- the desire to actualize our sexual feelings is overwhelmingly strong- and I use that word without exaggeration. The trope of boys tripping over their words isn't some dumb, unfounded trope- it's an unwitting admission to this exact phenomenon. And,

3. Sexual harassment gets monsterized way too much. People who commit this are always, without fail, portrayed as devious, monstrous sex perverts, shady figures that lurk in the shadows or leather-jacketed jackasses made to be the foils in our nice guy fantasies. As a result, we never believe that we could be the one to do it. That a regular person who just didn't understand their own impulses, might do something stupid and bad and humiliating like grope someone or make an aggressive advance based on green lights they'd imagined in their head.

So Is it any wonder the response to being accused, especially publicly, is to panic? To try and say that it didn't happen? To insist that they couldn't have done those things? It's more than just worrying about consequences: it's that they can't admit it to themselves, because to do so would be admitting that they, indeed, did the thing that we all agreed only inhuman monsters do.

That's why this whole conversation around it is so unhelpful. It's just an unending crescendo of "I can't believe ____ would do that!" No, it's not unbelievable. It's really common, and we need to treat it that way. Because "very common" doesn't equal "acceptable," it means "easy to believe" and "able to be talked about without tones of immense cataclysm."

TL;DR - I've done sexual harassment; if we can't stop being hysterical and disbelieving about it, we'll never be able to address it.


EDIT: Nope, I'm deleting all the irrelevant "But muh due process" comments. They're not what this journal's about and they amount to willful ignorance.


EDIT 2:
*pinches the bridge of his nose*
... Oh my fucking god.
People. Look.
"Believing the victim" doesn't mean believing that their account of the situation is 100% infallibly true and cannot be false.
It means giving them even and equal consideration as the accused, which the law and society writ large does not.
If you somehow didn't know this, then fine. But I am 100% done talking about it.
If you'd like to talk about the actual content of the journal then fantastic.
Viewed: 1,128 times
Added: 6 years, 4 months ago
 
AsroyalSagittarius
6 years, 4 months ago
great story life and it has a good moral,thank god I'm too scared to talk to a real girl ,lol
Milkie
6 years, 4 months ago
I've been there, man!

There was a young lady in classes with me back when I was just about to graduate the junior high and move on to actual real high school. She was a looker, through and through, and she no doubt knew it. She was quiet though, shy now that I think about it, but I burned for her, y'know? But me, I'm just crazy out of her league. I was out of everyone's league. I was the kinda guy who had, in the past, asked girls out because I was attracted to them in an effort to get to know them better, but... I was always "not their type."

So this girl, I just got overcome by this incredibly stupid desire. I stalked her on the internet. I sent her e-mails and instant messages from a separate e-mail account and said some really disgusting things to her. She was... surprisingly polite about it. She didn't yell at me or whatever, she just passively went along with a notable disinterest, but made no attempt to just cut me off like a cyst.

I only sent her a couple messages. After that, I immediately got flooded with this tremendous sense of regret and disgust in myself. I got real embarrassed and flustered. I wanted to just retreat into myself and die. Still, I powered through that and came clean - like 100% clean. I told her who I was and apologized and tried to explain what stupid shit must have been going through my mind when I did it. In the end I said, "You don't deserve what I did and I'm sorry."

Of course this meant that the rest of my time ever knowing her or being near her, she couldn't look at me without being visibly disappointed. Not disgusted or angry, she just... seemed so disappointed in me. It stung, but I shouldered it, knowing I'd dug my hole and had to lie in it. I never really thought of it from her perspective though, even in admitting fault. I just got severely disappointed in myself for being capable of doing something so... juvenile and disrespectful. Something only the most horrible of people do, in my mind.

So you ain't wrong, not one bit. Had I known that she no doubt got attention similar from lots of guys, probably on less gross levels, god forbid on worse, I might've been able to reign it in. I wasn't a bad kid - really well-behaved even! But the moment I decided to do that, it was crazy. I was completely outta my head. And in the end I cared more that I had been a vile, wretched young man and expected better of myself.

Cross my heart, I never did anything like that ever again. I lived with this girl basically knowing I had done something terrible and shameful that I'd never forgive myself for. It got easier over time. I learned from it. I don't really share the story though. It's not like I'd want anyone to know, y'know?

Same thing with all these other creeps creepin' on girls. They aren't gonna be forthcoming either, as you said. Nail on the head, bud.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
It's wild, isn't it? You can grow to even hate that side of yourself. It can become pathological if you're not careful.
Milkie
6 years, 4 months ago
I like to think it was just a big fat mistake, just some really unfortunate growing pains. The whole hormone thing... it's weird though. I can't say with all certainty that it was just hormones. Because like, if you're hormonal, it doesn;t, like... feel different or whatever. You're horny a lot, and you just kinda live with it and it becomes the way things are and you can't really tell that your body's just going haywire.

I wanna believe that'd be the only reason I go so far, in my reflection, out of character for myself and do something like that. I was not what you'd consider confident or brave. I shied away from girls because I knew my differences set me at a severe disadvantage. I always tried to keep my expectations in reality. Then I just flip the script and do that?

Like how does that even happen?

I'll never really get it. These days, I can't act like that. I can't even get anywhere near the glory days of being a young, horny teenager. I'm older now, tired. I know better now, and have more empathy under my belt than I ever did in school. Mistakes like that can be hella costly, so I aim never to repeat them!
caramelthecalf
6 years, 4 months ago
*nodnod* I agree. Communication stops most of it.  Everybody has different boundaries, as the moment it's crossed, then just tell the person to stop. This is not a cure-all, but it does stop most harassment.
dmflat
6 years, 4 months ago
I dunno whether to be thankful or not of the fact that this was the part of school I missed.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 4 months ago
All of this stuff going on today is a little scary im glad im NOT a boy growing up right now, because I would be even MORE terrified to talk to a girl, kiss a girl or engage with a girl.

It's exactly like you say And im not trying to DEFEND sexual harassment abuse or rape here. Not by a long shot, but these actions are often way over demonized. I mean there is a point were that kind of response is completely warranted but to a young male growing up with all this it has to be confusing and scary.


Dont kiss that girl if she decides she doesnt like you later she can cry harassment!


this doesn't even have to be TRUE! I know for a fact meny ADULT males are starting to feel this way. (it's part of the whole MGTOW thing) SO imagine what it's like to a tween or teen.




sedkitty
6 years, 4 months ago
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 4 months ago
thats so...pointlessly circuler. Also not sure what it has to do with me more or less agreeing with OP. Maybe im just to tired but it looks like the point is Any group can be demonized? Doesnt change the fact that this is a problem for both men and women and nobodys getting special treatment from me.

Men shouldent harass, women shouldent remain silent about harassment, parties found guilty of false accusations should be punished and cease to be belived in the future.

"Move your Enemies and do not be moved by them" -Sun Tzu

somebody is harassing you do something about it. No justice can come from silence. It's much easier to credibly make a credible accusation immediately after the fact then it is to do so 30 years later.

Or you could just smack the son of a bitch =p Im not normaly an advocate for physical violence but an unwanted but grabbing is traditionally replied to by an introduction to the open palm of your good hand, followed by a comparison to a serten porcine animal.

I supose that doesnt allways work either...I was harassed in High school...my Responce was to Tell a teacher about it the results were innefective and...hilarious... I'm glad I got a laugh out of it in the end I supose.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
No, the point of the comic is that when there's a genuine problem inside of a community, too many people are myopic and start making it about them, instead of understanding the greater point and seeing the big picture.

You know. Like seeing "Women complain about getting groped" and thinking "Gosh I would hate to be accused of groping someone!"
Eviscerator
6 years, 4 months ago
Well, you would hate to be accused of being groped if people assume you're guilty as as soon as you're accused, no?
Musuko42
6 years, 4 months ago
It's a fair point, but you have to be careful with this; when the 'community' is a gender, rather than a social group (like us furries), things start getting iffy. Why would being born with certain physical attributes endow you with responsibility to do something about the actions of others with similar attributes?

Kim Jong Un often wears glasses. I too wear glasses. If a little rat said to me "you know, you glasses-wearers can be awful dictators", what would you think my response would be? Defensive? Like the seagull's response?

The rat attacked the seagull, shouted at the seagull, insulted the seagull, and called him complacent and selfish. And when the rat finally ask for the seagull's help ("please just acknowledge that these gulls right here are being terrible"), it came AFTER the rat had opened with "you know, you seagulls can be awful cruel". So, is it any wonder that the seagull was, at that point, suspicious of the rat, and accused him of trying to demonise all seagulls?

There's a lesson here. Even if the rat felt the seagull had a moral obligation to do something...he certainly went about trying to communicate it in a very non-constructive way.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
" Musuko42 wrote:
Why would being born with certain physical attributes endow you with responsibility to do something about the actions of others with similar attributes?


Okay, there's this perception that if you accept that the problem exists, you have to accept the reputation of the worst actors, and that you yourself are part of the problem. This is needlessly self-obsessed and paranoid, because ironically, you're only part of the problem if you don't acknowledge that problem exists.

Really! All you have to do is say "Yeah, I see the stats; that seems like a problem. I dunno what to do about it, but it's there." And boom, you're not a seagull. Nobody's going to pressgang you into service in some social justice mob, or demand that you apologize for all men- and if they do, they're a 14 year old on Tumblr who's gonna get roundly dismissed like I see happen all the time when people get straight up Misandrist just about anywhere that has more than 20 members.

The rat in the comic asks the gull to intervene, and while that would be nice, honestly it would be a gigantic step up if people would just stop making excuses for why they don't have to acknowledge it.

As for the messaging angle? Shit, the whole journal was about that.
Musuko42
6 years, 4 months ago
"there's this perception that if you accept that the problem exists, you have to accept the reputation of the worst actors, and that you yourself are part of the problem"

I agree with you on that. But just looking at the specific scenario in the comic; the rat started off on the attack. He didn't say "those seagulls". He said "you seagulls". I think the seagull's response isn't self-obsessed or paranoid; it's justified. The rat opened with an attack on his species, not those specific mean seagulls over there.

"it would be a gigantic step up if people would just stop making excuses for why they don't have to acknowledge it."

It would be nice, yes. But here's the thing; they don't have to acknowledge it, and I don't think it's fair, or helpful, to insult them (by calling them a seagull) if they don't. If you want someone to acknowledge your cause, and maybe even help you, you have to convince them...and I don't think you accomplish that by using insults and shouting, like the rat does to the seagull.

I have an anecdote that illustrates this; I was asked my opinion about a protest that was happening in America, about a pipeline being built. I said that I don't have an opinion about it. When asked why, I said that it was happening to people thousands of miles away, and I didn't understand their situation, nor related to it, nor could I do anything helpful about the situation if I did. What followed was pretty close to how the rat talks to the seagull; I was accused of being selfish and uncaring, and worse.

Surprisingly, I didn't then say "you calling me a selfish scumbag has completely turned me around, and I now support your view!"

Back to your statement; that just recognising it's a problem means you're not a seagull. To what end? There is a monsterously huge list of issues in the world that both of us aren't aware of, don't care about, and can't do a single solitary helpful thing for. What good does it do for us to recognise all of those problems, if there's nothing we can do about them, other than to make us feel impotent and miserable?

If someone wants to be a seagull about your issue...maybe consider that they are busy dealing with other issues...ones which they do understand, can relate to, and can do something about... about which you're being a seagull? Just because they're not fighting or even acknowledging your battle, doesn't mean they're fighting no battles...and certainly doesn't give anyone the right to treat them like a seagull.

The world is huge, and full of issues, and we can each only help solve a tiny amount of them. And the only person who gets to decide which issues you can and should try to solve, is you. And nobody should be attacking you because they don't agree with your decision.

Be clear: I'm talking about the comic, not your journal. Your journal was thought-provoking. :)
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Hahaha, but don't you see though? By asking me to answer for this other person who you had a bad experience with, you're doing exactly the same thing the rat does in the comic. If you think that's wrong, then why do the same thing to me? And if you think that's right, then why doesn't it follow through the other way?
Musuko42
6 years, 4 months ago
Now we're just getting silly :p
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
If you say so!
Eviscerator
6 years, 4 months ago
Wow.  This comic practically parodies itself with its foolishness. "I'm just a rat, they don't listen to me."  Call the cops, get a gun, try something other than just talking if it's such a big deal.

STOP HARASSING THE MENTALLY CHALLENGED BIRD.  Jesus.
sedkitty
6 years, 4 months ago
The rat called the cops before.  They took a statement, and went to talk with the alleged assailants.  The gulls said they didn't do it, so it's a case of he-said-she-said.  So, like a majority of cases, it just got filed away.

(And check out the rant.  Cuh-raaaaaaa-zy.  Besides, that rat was totally asking for it.)

It's like the rat was talking from experience.  ...nah.


Also, if the rat had a gun, so would the gulls.  And the gulls aren't exactly going to be waiting for the rat to shoot them, however concealed the weapon might be.  What the rat could've walked away from is instead... well, guns don't kill people, so it must not be murder.

(Meanwhile, in rodent-related coincidences, my mouse stopped working.  Thank goodness I remembered my keyboard shortcuts.)
Eviscerator
6 years, 4 months ago
Nice pile of assertions there.  Doesn't change that the rat won't do anything themselves and expects others to fight on their own behalf.
sedkitty
6 years, 4 months ago
I'd reply to the comment someone left to me, but for some weird reason the reply button isn't there.  Oh well!
BrokenPupper
6 years, 4 months ago
Perfect.
PantyRanger
6 years, 4 months ago
I have never been accused of sexual harassment because I am severely uncomfortable with touching others, especially strangers. I have however been on the receiving end on several occasions, including a girl grabbing my hand and making me touch her boobs . . . it was extremely unpleasant.

I dunno, I always been an extremely sensitive person. Sensitive to touch and pain so I don't ever try to make skin contact with people. Only those I've consented to and date. I can't relate to that hormone thing because usually I just look at porn and beat off. The few times I've checked people out is so that I could figure out how to draw them. For most of middle school and high school, I never pursued relationships (I was closeted gay, anyways).

There's a lot of stuff i don't like to talk about during that time because it's unpleasant to talk about. But I didn't start having any "real" sexual relationships until my 20s.

In general, people make me nervous.

Peeps use to think something was wrong with me because I showed little outward sexual characteristics or "checked" people out. Always baffled me that others can't seem to focus on things when a "piece of fine ass" passes them.

Edit: This is why I don't want to go to fur cons cause that sort of atmosphere is gonna make me severely uncomfortable.
TheSpazman
6 years, 4 months ago
The atmosphere at fur-cons is nothing at-all like this.
JackDesert
6 years, 4 months ago
The fur con I went to had fursuiters randomly hugging people.  To most people it's harmless show of friendliness.
to people like me and maybe PantyGremlin, it sets off uncomfortable emotions.  Now the two that held up a sign said "HUG????" I gladly hugged.
PantyRanger
6 years, 4 months ago
I can agree that having random people hug me without my say so is not okay. I get jumpy when a person I date does it.
FelouseFarnayne
6 years, 4 months ago
This is really something I take on a case by case basis myself... Sadly due to my life of late sexual growth I can't say I fully understand being from the perspective of the "dumb kid who let his hormones get the better of him" because I was more the socially awkward shy kid that avoided dealing with people (especially since both boys and girls physically/emotionally bullied me for most of my school life) but I can emphasise with it due to my later experiences in my life and what I learned from others who got caught or was involved with said actions.

A recent example I can think of is a man who goes by the name of Adam Blampied. He was a man who got Youtube famous from talking about wrestling and due to his popularity he had a fair share of female fans. However it came to light that he took advantage of his female fans getting naked pictures of them and even lied to his then girlfriend by hiding that he was doing this. It was only because of his own admission of guilt that he himself came out to say "I did this and I am willing to take fault and admit I have a problem".

I find this interesting from a psychological stand point as he had revealed that he had issues involving ego and getting positive attention he never had before drove him to do this on top of his uncontrollable need of a sexual gravitation just because he could do it and even get it. It situations like this that make me glad that people are not outright monsters in most cases (as the media would like to paint) but rather just people who are weak or have uncontrollable urge that spurs them to do this action due to their own personal experiences in life.
MaximilianUltimata
6 years, 4 months ago
It sounds bizarrely apt, for teen Nori to be booping a girl in the butt.

There's a few major differences between your case and most of the cases in the news right now. The first and foremost is the age; most of the men accused of sexual assault are much older than us as we are right now (for Roy Moore, he was roughly our age when he is accused to have molested young teens). They aren't tweens trying to deal with the sudden barrage of hormones from puberty.

The second, and this is the extremely important factor, it seems, is the power dynamic between the accused and accusers. Between Roy Moore, Roger Ailes, Harvey Weinstein, Bill O'Reilly, and even Chris Savino (creator of Loud House), they used their fame, power, money, and/or status to intimidate accusers into either giving in to their advances, prevent them from speaking out against blatant sexual assault, or (and this is especially true for those from Hollywood and in particular Roger Ailes) using their workplace as an ad hoc dating/escort service. And of course, because he is unashamedly the physical amalgam of all of America's sins from the past 70+ years, the Entropy was the most blatant about his own sexual assault history by openly bragging about it when he got the tiniest taste of the vapid illusion of power he thinks he has.
icebatman
6 years, 4 months ago
that is true
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
It's true they're older, but also, they grew up in much more repressive times than we did, both toward women and sex in general. If you don't educate someone when they're young, they'll never get rid of the bad habits.
MaximilianUltimata
6 years, 4 months ago
Also give them a safe and healthy outlet.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Yes, also this.
PaperMercenary
6 years, 4 months ago
I almost left a huge comment about my love life. xD I'm a bit tired.  Anyways, unintentional groping has only ever happened to me once and it wasn't even with my awareness.  I was in a super crowded hall in my freshman year and I was trying to get to class.  A thousand faces and I wasn't looking at any one, next thing I know this girl yells right next to my face for me to get off her.  Apparently in trying to push passed her, I had gotten stuck pressed up against her while we walked in the same direction.  No idea for how long or what, but I looked through her, as I often did with people I don't like- and yes, I instantly did not like her because she yelled at me.  Didn't matter that we were invading each others' spaces, not to me.  I had places to go and shit to do.  I don't even remember what she looked like, but I remember that she had chocolate brown eyes that were black at the edges of her iris.  Super pretty eyes, but that's all I remember about her.  Yelling and eyes.

Nothing happened beyond that, I got to class and to my knowledge never encountered her again.  I don't look at people's faces as a norm, because at 6'1" I am a bit on the tall side and tend to look down at the ground so I am watching where I'm going.  I'm also hyper aware that women have breasts, so if I ever looked at a woman, it was usually their outline that I saw and nothing else.  Maybe I'd notice a color here or there, like skin color or the color of their top or hair, but that's about it.  That's changed, obviously, but I'm a grown ass man now and no longer battling whoremoans that make me do things I'd rather not get punished for doing.

That's my experience with unintentional gropage and as I said, its not even that.

As for hormones though... there's a reason I refer to them as "whoremoans".  Good lord the stupid shit I did when I popped an erection.  Thankfully God was kind enough to not land me in jail for some of it. xD  Not that I did anything illegal mind you, but in a "he said, she said" situation, the woman wins every time unless the guy is super charismatic and well liked, things I am not.  Most of the things I did though, were in the relative safety of being online because it didn't matter what I looked like or where I came from.

If I had to give advice on how to deal with whoremoans, I would not be able to.  Mine were particularly strong and I did and said things that in a normal, calm state, I wouldn't have even thought about- let alone wanted to do.  My methods of dealing with my whoremoans were also only effective because I know my body and what makes it tick and likely would not work for anyone else.  So... I guess generally the best advice I can give is go to an adult of your gender- someone you trust obviously such as one of your parents- and just talk to them. Vent the weirdness just beneath your skin and ask for help.  They likely wont know how to help, because everyone is different, but at least you wont be dealing with it alone.

*shrugs* Or just wing it.  You're only a teenager for a short time and then you'll be in your twenties.  You will literally never, ever again be a teenager.  So do some shit you'll regret later, or don't.  *shrugs again* It's your life.
SassyAfterDark
6 years, 4 months ago
I've been in those positions, but I've never acted out my part, so to speak. I managed to triumph over my hormones for reasons I could never fully understand. If I had to guess, it's the fact that I always viewed personality before body, which can be as much a mistake as it is a blessing, in my opinion. So many girls were cute, but if I ever ventured close enough, I'm learn how scathing, hurtful, and just outright venomous they are capable of being. So, maybe if I wasn't so sensitive, I may have done it, or maybe if the risk didn't outweigh the reward by such a long shot, I may have done it. I don't know why I'm saying this, perhaps it's because I needed it off my chest and my pick-and-choose Christian mother would severely punish me over it. Eh. Good talk.
ScottySkunk
6 years, 4 months ago
In highschool I had a girl who sat in front of me with an amazing butt..  I never did more. Then look though.. Everything sex in the USA is over blown.
KuraiOokami
6 years, 4 months ago
Don't forget that women have these urges too. And if you're someone that's been sexually harassed / assaulted by one, regardless of age though younger makes it shittier, there's that whole stigma of guys like it too much, girls can't do that to guys, etc etc... makes doing anything against it a laughable joke at your expense ._.

Education in how to properly deal with hormones and the primal urges needs to be improved. There are still some places using 1940s video were abstinence is the only sex ed and if you do anything else it's hell for you! >_>
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Yes, a very good addition. Regardless of statistical comparison, it's important that we try not to overnormalize the way we overdramatize the other side of that spectrum.
ShaneLaFleur
6 years, 4 months ago
I'm more in the 'believer the accusers' camp. I'm glad that women are coming out now and that the truly guilty creeps are finally getting their comeuppance. The accuser should be believed and taken seriously in each case and there should be a full investigation each time...if the accusations turn out to be false, that will come out in the course of the investigation but more than likely they will be true and the accused should be punished accordingly.

One case I think was handled fairly well by all involved was Chris Savino. Once the accusations came out, Nickelodeon immediately took action. They suspended him and later fired him from 'The Loud House' and the show will go on without his input. The fans of the show (at least the ones I've encountered) at first couldn't believe the accusations but then once the scope of the accusations fully came to light, they quickly denounced Savino's actions. They're still fans of the show, but now express disdain and anger at Savino's actions and immediately call out anyone trying to defend the man. They also are quick to respect all the talented women who work on the show who are now free from intimidation and harassment. Savino, to my knowledge never fully denied the accusations and quickly issued a full apology to all the women he hurt and intimidated over the years. The fans accepted his apology but did say it was 'too little, too late' to forgive him for his actions and have moved on to enjoy the show and not mention him at all anymore when talking about the show. For the record I am a fan of the show and have denounced Savino fully for his actions.

I do have a great respect for women but I do admit I have slipped up more than once. I do my best in those situations to own up to those mistakes and work hard to be a better man. As a bisexual male, I have had a few situations where I have gotten unwanted and or/uncomfortable attention from other males (mostly online)..because of that and because of the way I was raised, I have a better understanding of what these accusers went through.

These things should be discussed fully. The more they're discussed in a frank and open manner, the more we'll be able to deal with the issue and things will improve.
AlastorKnight
6 years, 4 months ago
I honestly don't know who to believe, it's a touchy subject (no pun intended) and I tend to shy away from those. I do however believe there does need to be a balance; while overdramatizing things is bad, as you mentioned above, over-normalizing them can be just as bad, because it can desensitize us to harassment if we just say "Oh, this happens all the time". (We might do better to say things like "This happens all the time, that's why everyone should be informed about it, etc.", but that is my opinion.)

I cannot say that I've had a situation quite like this, but I do agree that sexual harassment does need to be treated as if it's more common than people think. As if anyone can do it, because odds are, they can.
lilblue
6 years, 4 months ago
I can honestly say this has really changed a lot, certainly not a great year for those who were harassed by major celebrities.
LordFriez
6 years, 4 months ago
I feel for all of the women that have been molested and abused, they never deserved such treatment just for being who they are.
Unfortunately these kinds of situations can happen to Either sex, tho granted it's happened to many more women (that has come out to say it atleast).
I am one such example.

I was molested at around the age of 10 by a male family member, which this wasn't a "one time" of it either.
I was so young that I didn't know what to do about it. I felt like if I told anyone I would be in trouble since I was involved or "letting them do it".
Being afraid of that I never told anyone, until they were caught molesting me.
They didn't get sentenced due to their young age, and to this day I have had to live with it haunting me.
The emotional scars have never healed since it was a family member I was close to.
My parents told me to never tell anyone, lest it would lead to the destruction of our family.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Ugh, that's horrible. I hope you've been able to open up to people since.
LordFriez
6 years, 4 months ago
I've only been able to tell my gf and best friend about it, but not enough courage to tell them what fully that that person did to me.
To this day everyone that knows the perpetrator has no idea what they have done.
Eviscerator
6 years, 4 months ago
While I understand the difficulty of proving cases, I don't believe the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' is ignorant shit.

Nor do I believe comparing your personal experience as a hormone addled adolescent is equivalent to grown ass adults making shitty decisions.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Don't create some inverse strawman for these people, they were not arguing on the level of concepts. That's giving them way too much credit.

Anyway the other reason why it pissed me off is because it was apropo of nothing considering that's not what the journal is about, which just goes to further show how naked the myopic disregard is.

Also who said it was equivalent?? It's indicative. As in, the best case scenario is going wrong, therefore we have a deeper, more pathological problem to solve here.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
And let me be very clear on this, because you're the one comment on it I'm gonna leave up.
Due Process already won.
It won all the way to the bank.
It won so hard that legally challenging accusers without some miraculous evidence or major social standing is basically impossible.
It won so deep and so far, that women just basically gave the fuck up and said, "The justice system can't help us."

At that point, with no other alternative, they said to themselves, "Welp. Literally the only thing I can do to protect other women from these creeps is to tell each other." Because the system so majorly failed them, they set up basically the social justice version of a shanty town.

And now people are pissed off that there's no due process, on the shanty town.

So I hope this illustrates why that line of reasoning makes me just short of apoplectic, and why I do not take it seriously.
Eviscerator
6 years, 4 months ago
So you're saying that people are likely as not guilty anyhow and should still be punished or something?  Mob rule is okay when you agree with it?  Maybe I'm not following you or missing something, but it surely looks like you're going off your rocker.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
I responded to you at the bottom of the journal.
I can't believe I even had to say this.
Eviscerator
6 years, 4 months ago
You also said you were done talking about it, so dropped the subject.
Delquea
6 years, 4 months ago
*deeeeeeeep inhale* I'm afraid this is the very first time I have to disagree with you Nori. As a woman who been on the receiving end myself, I have to agree sexual harassment isn't a small ordeal and should be handled right away, in all due respect though, thats due to the western society's mob mentality when it comes to women. I seen males get sexually harassed and they are always told to deal with it or enjoy it because the harassment is coming from a woman. It don't help that there have been multiple cases (one such example being Kevin Clash (aka Elmo) who was PROVEN to be innocent but still had his entire career and reputation ruined because of a jealous crackhead) where no evidence was present and when the truth was revealed, the industry and society still sided with the woman.

It at the point where any woman can now make a false claim and they are believed, no arguments. people just think they are 100% correct. This may not fit your perception of how things are done, but I witnessed these false claims straight up close. Even during the time I was a supervisor where a woman made a claim against a male for attempting to rape her and threaten her. Of course everyone believed her unaware the male actually had an alibi and proved it. I even had to fire the woman for making the claim in the beginning.

Sorry Nori but there are times where one shouldn't believe a claim just because "They said so". Society have a mob mentality when it comes to these things and while many of the cases been proven true, just as many been proven false with actual confessions from the accusers and people are still on the accusers' side. And that bothers me a lot.

Unfortunately this comment may be deleted based on that last line which is concerning.
HelixBreak
6 years, 4 months ago
You're conflating "Accept that the accused is guilty" with "Accept the accusation might have merit" It's less a case of automatically accepting any accusation as true and more that people wish the default response wasnt "No, that didn't happen because I 'know' this person." Going automatically to 'the male is guilty' is just as bad, neither gender should automatically get a pass. The default response should be "This is a serious accusation, let us examine both of the involved parties to make sure we get the truth and then act on said truth".
Delquea
6 years, 4 months ago
Actually that exactly what I was trying to say (I assumed my own experience and what I witnessed would have hinted that but I blame my own lack of words). But I still meant it when I said that for the most part, people will side with women more than males who been sexually harassed.
HelixBreak
6 years, 4 months ago
The thing is that's just another side of the same problem. "The person who is making an accusation should be at least listened to" would cover men as well. With the current default of "The woman is right unless the man is famous, in which case he is right" doesn't help anyone.
Delquea
6 years, 4 months ago
As I said before, its all a case of mob mentality and it got to the point I can't believe either side since it became a misleading mess of chaos with no real merit based on whatever social bias exist. Personally it annoys me because Sexual Harassment really carries little weight anymore due to how everyone treats it. But I'm just rambling since cases like these annoys me XD
icebatman
6 years, 4 months ago
^this
Eviscerator
6 years, 4 months ago
For what it's worth, I agree entirely.  It's difficult to balance an accusation both potentially having merit, and uphold the idea of presumption of innocence with today's social media quickly descending into mob justice.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
THANK YOU.
God this wasn't even the point argh
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Yeah, not what I was saying. I clarified at the bottom of the journal.
Delquea
6 years, 4 months ago
I know but I'm never sure of a person's intentions when they give such warnings. I'd fully explain but then I'd have to make 3 full comments.

NOW if your reply wasn't related to that but what I said in general, I still stand by what I said in which the whole ordeal is just a chaotic mess of accusations and assumptions due to social norms in which no one can barely comprehend how touchy the subject matter is and is either quick to defend the accuser or the accused. If that made sense because English isn't my favorite language.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
We are experiencing some serious growing pains right now. The way this situation is working currently isn't the way it should work in the future, it's just that this moment in time is extremely necessary so that we can create a better method of arbitration that doesn't so nakedly favor one side or another. Maybe that looks like something less legal and more interpersonal, I don't know.
Delquea
6 years, 4 months ago
For that to happen, the social bias that claims women are always innocent needs to end, and the popularity of the male needs to be disregarded. Both those things are very likely to happen. Along with that, society needs to realize woman can sexual harass males also (Its a fact that sexual harassment against males is often *THANKFULLY not always* ignored if its done by a woman)

People need to try and see both sides of the argument before passing judgements of guilty or innocent. But I unfortunately see no means of that happening anytime soon if not at all.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
It's a problem of vision. Everyone reacts viscerally to each individual moment in time, unable to see beyond that moment they're living, to see the big picture, and what it could mean. Ironically, it's because people dig in their heels so much out of the fear of What's Possible that it's so agonizing to reach the better end of that possibility. Every tired fight has to be refought countless times. Every addressed concern has to be relitigated. And yet the status quo is held as the 'safe' option. It's maddening.
Delquea
6 years, 4 months ago
Thats society in a nutshell unfortunately.
Exelbirth
6 years, 4 months ago
But muh due process!

I kid, I kid.  You are right, it is quite likely very common, more so than this puritanical-minded society may be inclined to think (could be correlation there, but would have to have the topic more publicly discussed than it currently is).  One thing I'm curious about though is the ratio.  If we were to assume every single accusation of sexual harassment was true, I wonder how many of them would be intentional predatory harassment vs unintentional oblivious harassment.  I would think (hope, really) that the unintentional greatly outweighs the intentional.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
It's a good question. Like clearly there are a lot of mechanisms of power being intentionally manipulated, but then there's also a lot of ignorance as to people's own functions and psychology.
NapalmXiphias
6 years, 4 months ago
Dude...under the influence of drugs and alcohol back in college, there were 3-4 times I almost did things I would later regret, sexually speaking. One of my friends actually had to hold me back on one occasion. Not something I'm proud of. I never do drugs now and I use my alcohol sparingly.

Judging from the comments, it seems I'm not the only one.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
No, not at all. It's a much more widespread thing than anyone wanted to imagine.
JackDesert
6 years, 4 months ago
Jack pushes the 'muh due process' panel out of the way.  I was actually on the other end of the stick on this.  
I was in 6th or 7th grade,  barely into the teen years.  A girl sat behind me and every day she'd take a shoe off and then run her toes along my back.  This went on for weeks.  But when ever I went to talk to her about it, she'd walk away saying "I'm not interested in you.  Telling the teachers was no good either since they were like "She's flirting with you' and I say "She pretty much is telling me verbally the other way.
Finally she slipped her foot up the back of my shirt and I grabbed the sides of the shirt and pulled hard and I said in no uncertain terms "We need to talk NOW!"  I then began to mention that she is doing something I wasn't comfortable with while keeping her foot trapped in my shirt against my back.  I even slumped down to keep her from moving her foot down out of my shirt.  I told her if she's not interested in me then stop warming her feet on my back, if she is then I had interest in her..,

I spent the day in the office being told by the principal that I was sexually harassing her by trapping her foot in my shirt like that.  It didn't matter she was playing footsie with my back in class, I was the bad guy.    

So I go with "It might or might not have happened" and wait for more information to come out before I entrench myself into one camp or another.  But this discussion is one I like.  It is cathartic to talk about it.
Exelbirth
6 years, 4 months ago
Perfect example of the double standard right there.  I'd bet a thousand bucks that if it was you putting your foot up a girl's shirt and she trapped your foot there, you'd still be the guilty party.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Man, schools in general are the worst for this. Nobody's ever paying attention and everyone's got their own assumptions, so the wrong person ends up getting the stick most of the time.
TheKangarooCourt
6 years, 4 months ago
It appears to be the whole thing stems from a social stigma created by an environment in which we grow up where we don't really understand at first, its not something you can talk to anyone about and receive proper guidance, and one wrong move and your left guilty-minded, stressed, or traumatized depending on which side of the scenario your on. As youths, its because people are afraid to discuss it, feel "if we don't mention it, they will remain innocent and pure and not have any understanding." That's the problem, youthful minds absorb information far more far quickly than one would think just from what they see, hear, experience, etc, and any cases that could have been avoided aren't often handled properly and that affects them negatively.

I would call what we have now is an old social deterrent that we kind of naturally fall back on. The fear of consequences, judgement, and lack of anyone to talk to, no healthy outlet, and no ways of seeking console without becoming a pariah to everyone they hold dear. It doesn't solve the problem, it just forces people who may want to talk about it to bottle it up, feel guilt, stress, or something worse, and then what comes from that?

Innocence begets curiosity, curiosity begets understanding, and understanding begets misunderstanding depending on how we learn.

But hey this all could be a bunch of nonsense, what the heck do I know?
Kupok
6 years, 4 months ago
I have nothing constructive to add, But in lieu of a +fav button, I want you to know I enjoyed reading this and thank you for sharing.
Khzhak
6 years, 4 months ago
I used to chase this girl around, and want to hug her.  I think we were both about four or five.  She didn't want to be hugged.  I don't remember much more about that because it was back in '80 or '81.

The girl next door kept showing me her stuff, but she was a year older.  We were both...I think I was ten, she was eleven.  She initiated too.  One day I used a couple of her doll combs to move stuff around and look, I didn't want to touch it.  Then she wanted to see mine.  We were in her bathroom, and then her mother asked if I was ok.  I quick got on the can, she opened the door a crack, I told her I was almost done, and asked if I'd seen her daughter.  I said something, I forget what, and she said to hurry up and closed the door.

When I was in high school, this girl always wanted to hug me, but I didn't want to be hugged.  Kinda full circle there.

I found glory holes in an adult bookstore in New Orleans on vacation.  A guy sat next to me in the booth, started going at it, I asked if I could touch it.  Snce then, every time, I ask first, no matter what.  I even ask a second time if it's been a minute while we relocate.  Kids will be kids, but as an adult, consent is required.

All of that is why I like the cub being the aggressor in art I commission, the adult has weight, strength, power, money, experience, the cub has curiosity and naivete that needs to be sated.  In reality, yes, stop anything inappropriate.  In fiction, let it happen, by all means.

I kinda skimmed the comments and skipped a bunch, but I like the journal.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
It's interesting to learn people's histories with this kind of thing. Thanks for sharing.
ShawnGuku
6 years, 4 months ago
Stop bein such a bitch about the comments

EDIT: And merry Christmas!
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Stop being fuckin' dumb and I will.
Wiouds
6 years, 4 months ago
How is learning more about this and finding other view points dumb? Pointing out how this mind set has cause innocent to be harassed hat is as bad if not worse.

Go right ahead and delete this comment if you support harassment.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Oh my god you guys are just bound and determined to get right onto my shitlist aren't you

I didn't delete your comments because you "had a different opinion," I deleted them because they had nothing to do with the fucking journal. You can't have a different opinion because you don't even know what my opinion actually was, on account of the fact that you read the first two sentences and started typing some shitty irrelevant pre-baked talking point. If you don't care enough to actually read what's being discussed, then I don't care enough to give you a platform.
ShawnGuku
6 years, 4 months ago
In my original, now deleted comment, I did mention my opinion on the whole sexual harassment vs sexual assault topic as well as stating my opinion on the witch hunt aspect.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Congratulations, you've shown you really didn't read it, because that's not what it was about either.
ShawnGuku
6 years, 4 months ago
I'm starting to think you don't really have a point
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
... jesus christ

"I've done sexual harassment; if we can't stop being hysterical and disbelieving about it, we'll never be able to address it."

That's it. That's all. That's the whole thing in a nutshell, what was so hard about that??
ShawnGuku
6 years, 4 months ago
Maybe it's just the all-over-the-place way you wrote the journal, it didn't seem to come to a conclusive point. At least as I read it.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
*Deep breath*
Alright.
I'll start adding a conclusive byline at the end.
But that still isn't an excuse to run off on some tangent. Don't do that.
MickJagger
6 years, 4 months ago
I heard this story recently where it was basically the same thing but in relation to child abuse and rape from islamic parents living in the U.S. before 9/11. Earlier, you said the sexual harassment thing had come up because of the inadequacy of the justice system. Can you tell me about how related the two are?

Don't gotta answer if you don't wanna.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Can you find me a source on this?
MickJagger
6 years, 4 months ago
I had the damned thing, but I'll look again.

MickJagger
6 years, 4 months ago
I FOUND IT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmRDwumgANY

Also, I dunno if you were enjoying it, but I thought the back and forth between you and Shawn was super comical. xD

Is he like your rival or something?
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Oh.
It's an anonymous 4chan post.
You might as well have asked me to verify the veracity of a creepypasta.
MickJagger
6 years, 4 months ago
I may have jumped the gun. Sorry.
Blackraven2
6 years, 4 months ago
why can't one fav journals?
GabrielLaVedier
6 years, 4 months ago
This is a journal that's long overdue. It makes a point that few even recognize and does it in a very welcoming and familiar way. You should be applauded for your candor and consideration of all sides.
chimangetsu
6 years, 4 months ago
Ffs. The usual suspects are really at it, aren't they?
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
"But wait! BUT WAIT! I have an irrelevant talking point to bulldog into this!"
sedkitty
6 years, 4 months ago
Incidentally, here's the comment the artist appended to the comic:

A comic about Seagulls.

If you feel like this comic doesn’t accurately represent you, and that you personally don’t act like this, good. That means this comic isn’t about you.

If you DO act like this, and are working on a counter argument about how not all _____ are ______, well that’s just disappointing.

(I know I should've posted this as a reply somewhere up there, but meh.)
Guron65
6 years, 4 months ago
Great journal, but I don’t know if we are on the same page when it comes to the point of all this. The main reason all of this uproar is happening is not just the sexual harassment, that’s a big part but not just that. It’s mainly about these people in high places who used their position to take advantage of women below them. In your case, you and that girl were both students on the same level of power (minus whether you were in 7th or 8th grade). But would she have called you out if you were,say, the class president or captain of the football team or whatever? I’m trying to make this sound as civil and nice as possible but if I say something that offends you I apologize. This my first time commenting on this website. I’m just trying to make sure we’re on the same page.

However, I think we can all agree on not masterbating in front of somebody or in public. There’s a time and a place for that.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Ah, but were we?
I had an inherent power over her: I was well-liked. Great grades, well-behaved, teachers liked me. Previous to this, I'd used this reputation and manipulation of authority figures to abuse other students (I had some serious problems when I was younger, it was bad). So in all likelihood, if I'd had the mind to, I could have simply denied it and probably come out on top. Yeah. Me. A kid. Using the exact same structures to get away with that and worse.

This is the only thing that bothers me about this whole situation. The focus is almost exclusively on rich and/or popular people, when in reality the same thing is happening to a much larger scale on the lower rungs of society, and it echoes the same way. And like I said, the more we exclude ourselves from the people perpetrating these things, the less we imagine ourselves as being capable of it. Famous or not, we have got to reinforce that anybody could do this kind of thing if they're in the right mindset, and explain to them how to work against that.
Guron65
6 years, 4 months ago
Huh, I didn’t know that about you, interesting. Like I said, I thought your journal was great, I just wanted to confirm that. Also, totally agree with you on acknowledging everybody is capable of this and if needed do something about it.
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
Yeah, I'm on board, power structures are an extremely pernicious aspect of this whole thing- I've talked about that before, so I wanted to add in the personal angle.
Guron65
6 years, 4 months ago
Good for you 😊👍
pyrostinger
6 years, 4 months ago
Man. I am hardpressed to disagree with anything here. I sorta recall having thoughts that I thankfully didn't act on involving hormones and such.

As a sort of side note, I *got* sexually harrassed at work the other day. The only reason it wasn't more traumatic was because it was weird and involved an unintentionally hilarious name that I'm dubious about embracing now. After all, it isn't everyday that some middle-aged white dude calls you "Studly Hungwell".
Norithics
6 years, 4 months ago
It's all over the place, isn't it? Coming forward, happening, just... damn.
pyrostinger
6 years, 4 months ago
It is, but I am glad that this stuff is coming out. A lot of what's being widely reported involved people who are being creeps.
AquaShade
6 years, 4 months ago
recent surveys, studies, and journals have given us the statistics that less than 40% of people say it's okay to harass women, more than 60% of the same participants, will be more lenient if the harassment is at men.

As a kid, I can provide my own experience to that growing statistical number. I remember some jerk of a girl, getting in my face, saying she was my girlfriend, and threatening to break up with me if I didn't buy her actual diamonds.....yeah. Those kinds of shallow assholes exist, regardless of gender. It just happens that the Golddigger stereotype is about women. But believe me, every stereotype, including sexual harassment, goes both ways.

I sympathize and... honestly, I'm being one hundred percent honest here. I wish I had your extroversion. The hormonal drive led you to kneegrope some hot girl? I could never do that. Too busy studying, or reading books. Hell, I doubt I'll ever find a girlfriend to be frank, even when I do complete my medical degree.

I'd say, don't be too hard on yourself. You now have the self awareness to keep yourself from doing something pervy unless the person wants it.

As far as victims go, rule on evidence, not on feels. Take the testimony/accusations of someone, male or female (Btw, if you account pregnancy traps, the number of rapes tips in favor of men being the victims) into a balanced account. Let the police do their job, and always, always, go to the police, not a counselor, not a dean, not a priest, proper investigations lead to results when truth is on your side. ^^;

At least, that's the hope. Yes, some rapists get away. But it's not 8 out of every 10.


Also, sorry for the long comment >< Love your work and happy that you didn't get in too much trouble over the incident. I hope the girl is doing well too ^^
wallarooblacke
6 years ago
Egads! That is horrible! Forced into a relation that you didn't want by someone
who will hate your guts regardless of what you do later on... Breaking up is the
ONLY option there is.

Especially if that person doesn't respect you.

Makes me appreciate being single.
subjectm8
6 years, 4 months ago
i got accused of sexual harassment
but i think might've been because the teachers overheard that i drew porn when i was like, 13th years old, so those cunts were bias against me.

i hope that burden that you carry doesn't become overwhelming, nori.
you're good boy
juiceandspunk
6 years, 2 months ago
More people need to read this.
wallarooblacke
6 years ago
Even if you live like a monk, you'd get accused even if you say nothing but wave and nod to someone
in a friendly manner while making eye contact by some alarmist type of a person.

People are getting THAT crazy now.
Norithics
6 years ago
Not really.
wallarooblacke
6 years ago
Yeah, that blanket statement wasn't helping, but there ARE those alarmists
that do run that route, right?
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