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Patreon, is time to move on?

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Well.. lot of people know the new TOS of Patreon,  there are tons of "patreon like" services overthere, even some that are made specifically for porn..  I think most of artists should move because Patreon will be a place like Deviantart soon

But where, and this is the question,  because I have the idea that if most of us will move to the same place, our customers/members will move with us... if  for the contrary most of artists split in different size, it will be harder to get members, since some people will be used to some pages and other not..

Years ago, when Sheezyart did the same that patreon is doing now, most of the furry artists moved to Furaffinity, and was really nice for a while..  everyone was there..  but then Furaffinity went into troll mode too,  and people started an exodus from FA,  some people moved here, others to SoFurry or hentai foundry..  and other decided to stay, didn't worked well for all us since not all our followers will follow you in many different sites..   for example I lost lot of friends who still resist to being active on inkbunny...

That shouldn't happen us with patreon,  because this time will affect our pockets..  so people, specially the ones who have patreon, i'm interested on hear your suggestions

(spread the word between the artists who have patreon please)
Viewed: 1,020 times
Added: 6 years, 6 months ago
 
alfredofroylan
6 years, 6 months ago
Enty es el "Patreon" japonés y como puede ver en la página de inicio son bastante liberales en cuanto a su contenido, la desventaja es que está en japonés, por lo que no sé cómo manejan el dinero por allá y la navegación es igual de horrible que en Pixiv.
https://enty.jp/
caramelthecalf
6 years, 6 months ago
Yo no sabe mucho espanol. Gracias por el information de enty.
krezz
6 years, 6 months ago
Thank you for the info. By the way, near the upper-right corner appears the flag of Japan (white retangle with a red tiny circle), click there and you will be able to see the page in various languages, english included.
But there's a new problem: how many of our actual supporters will follow us there?
alfredofroylan
6 years, 6 months ago
Yeah, didn't saw it at first, the Q&A is quite big.
https://enty.jp/en/faq
GreenReaper
6 years, 5 months ago
Ask yourself how many followed you there to start with, vs. how many just happened to be there and decided to give you money, and I think you will have the answer you seek. (Admittedly, it helps to be able to read the user interface.)
roninhunt0987
6 years, 6 months ago
i think it may be time to jump ship from it bro... its gonna be run down like dA
Xennos
6 years, 6 months ago
Most people I know Included myself have move our contents to Discord... Well I know it's not the best solution as Discord ToS are almost as bad. But it's less likely the chance to get screwed over plus it's more expendable and easily to replace when worst came to past. So it's not a bad idea to prolong the inevitable... at least until better alternative arise.
krezz
6 years, 6 months ago
Can you send me a PM please?
EmbertheArtist
6 years, 6 months ago
It really sucks that this is happening......
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 6 months ago
man FUCK patreon
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
Much like the thing with the schools - its best to do some research before going full attack robot. From what I understand people are claiming that they might be in danger of losing the ability to lost patreon, yes?
https://puu.sh/y4W3D/de5205b19c.png
Again, this seems to me like it protects fictional depictions. Game of Thrones has rape, incest, violence, death, gore, sexual glorification, and probably pedophilia in there somewhere. If GoT is safe, my nazi Rodents and your cubs are safe.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 6 months ago
i dont honestly give a shit on a shingle one way or another =p about patreon. that being said theres a lot of artist i like who DO care about it,and i have seen this over and over and over again when it comes to underaged content in artistic mediums. the ToS change is pretty shitty at doing the one damn thing it's suposed to do wich is make the rules for useing the site clear =p

Here it says that historical or personal stories and dipictions can be ok but farther up it demonizes depictions of rape includeing fictitious and simulated depictions. It was allready agaisnt the rules of patreon to post stuff that was illegal so it seems to me this new change to the ToS is pretty clearly going after "porn" but is willing to allow stuff thats more "tasteful" at least thats how i am interpreting it.

I cant help but assume the worst however it's not the first time a company has done this shit.

I hope your right in the end, and there a private company so they can do as they please but it's still shitting seeing this happen all the time.
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
They have to follow their own rules, and their rules state fiction is fine. Unless someone is posting dickpics and getting money for them they should be fine. They Explicitly talk about real life pornography when mentioning the porn that isn't allowed and go out of their way to distinguish between fiction and reality. Panic is the enemy, though if I am misunderstanding the situation, feel free to point that out...but I think even on no hours of sleep I have managed to solve this issue before too many people delete their accounts and LOSE THEIR SOURCE OF INCOME over a rumor that took a few seconds to debunk.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 6 months ago
well for the sake of people who rely on patreon I hope your right, it does kinda sound like it's not ok to post on patreon BUT will make exceptions for "this stuff here" but thats ultamit up to the team that reveiws and polices content... i donno man


" We have zero tolerance when it comes to the glorification of sexual violence which includes bestiality, rape, and child exploitation (i.e., sexualized depiction of minors). This is true for illustrated, animated, or any other type of content.


seeems to say the opasit here >. and thats what worrys me. It goes out of it's way to mention illistrated and animated content. Right below that is what your referanceing saying fictional content is protected.

SO... Just Illistrated or animated chilporn that I SUPOSE featured a real child as a mondel and Rape or fetish acts that are indistinguishable from nonconcentual sex, EXCEPTING works that are clearly fiction? they really should have made this clearer
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
That is talking about real sex...again - I don't know what more I could possibly do beyond showing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that their site explicit says that fiction - even citing game of thrones AND Lolicon - are fine.

My content contains the most extreme stuff you will find in the fandom, trust me - I make a note of keeping tabs on who goes full right on the issue of pornography. Most places make a distinction between real and fictional because real pornography has the possibility to hurt real people - spreading disease, sometimes involving sex slaves, and sometimes involving people otherwise forced into it or unable to consent.
KevinSnowpaw
6 years, 6 months ago
in adition to the point Foxy makes it only says lolita... again I wish it was more clear Lolita COULD referance lolicon but it also is more likely just referances the fictional story Lolita. Saying as a Work of fiction it's protected becouse it's not pornographic and is not visual. Text gets way more protection then any other form of  consumable media.
Foxy101
6 years, 6 months ago
Yeah but you can't ignore the previous paragraph that specifically targets sexual acts involving children in any media including digital or animated as well as "other fringe sexual fetish content"

" We have zero tolerance when it comes to the glorification of sexual violence which includes bestiality, rape, and child exploitation (i.e., sexualized depiction of minors). This is true for illustrated, animated, or any other type of content. Patreon reserves the right to review and remove accounts that may violate this guideline. As a strong commitment to child safety, we will work with law enforcement whenever we come across child exploitation.

We also do not allow other fringe sexual fetish content, such as incest, necrophilia, or fetish content that is hard to distinguish from non-consensual sex.


You can say it's only real porn but it does say, "This is true for illustrated, animated, or any other type of content. " and as far as law, really a site has a tos that you agree to regardless of local laws. Their payment solutions are what cause the conflic that require these changes in the first place.
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
But its talking about real pornography in that context. Unless you think that patreon had each sentence crafted by a different person. I just don't like how no research is put into anything anymore...it literally took me opening their ToS to find that fiction is okay. GoT has rape, GoT has bestiality, GoT has incest, GoT probably has everything. There is probably a GoT book I don't know about where anthro wolves with five dicks just have a massive orgy while coated in blood. GoT is pretty fucking weird and sexualized.
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
I actually have a way to solve this - would anyone like to contact patreon and ask for clarification?
Foxy101
6 years, 6 months ago
Also the mention of Game of Thrones and Lolita are referring to using the context of the situations that happen in them to educate, not make porn of.

" the Trust and Safety team will take into consideration context including personal, historical or educational narrative.
Foxy101
6 years, 6 months ago
Honestly I think patreon would only crack down on you if you host the images there and have someone out to get you. Personally I don't care as I don't use patreon, but I think people should be aware that unless they have it in writing from patreon they can shut you down fairly quickly which may hurt more than finding a different place for this sort of thing.
Foxy101
6 years, 6 months ago
I'm going to ask them now, but one more thing I forgot to mention. I believe "Lolita"
is referring to the Novel by Vladimir Nabokov not loli porn
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
I sent them an email as well! I will keep you posted.
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
By the way, the novel is not named that by accident - it features a 12 year old in a sexual situation.
Foxy101
6 years, 6 months ago
We'll see, really I hope you're right as a lot of people need patreon
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
You can rely on me to raise hell if somehow a 12 year old being raped by her step-father, a women being sold by her brother to fantasy mongols to be raped and tortured, whatever the fuck happened in the pilot with those two blondes, and slaughtering children is okay but furries are not.
LeydenTheWolf
6 years, 5 months ago
What's going on with patreon right now?
Blackraven2
6 years, 6 months ago
I have warned about over reliance on patreon for a long time, but well...

Main issue is that patreon-like services that explicitly allow pr0n will be boycotted by paypal, making payments cumbersome.

that was the one big advantage of patreon so far, that they allowed - or tolerated pr0n, while still compatible with popular online payment services

it will be much harder to find a willing customerbase, especially for reoccuring payments, if the people have to trust the page with their credit card or bank account details directly
AcidSkunkWolf
6 years, 6 months ago
No puede ser, ahora ya no hay mas paginas crowfunding
Robthe1st
6 years, 6 months ago
If you're going to leave Patreon.. then where would u go?
krezz
6 years, 6 months ago
I remember that Inkbunny had a "payment system" (in beta version?) for artists, something like an early Patreon. Could that be reactivated? And of course, IB should get a percentage of the profits.
GreenReaper
6 years, 5 months ago
It was de-activated soon after FA's account, and for similar reasons. We'd need to find a payment processor which was compatible, and chances of that aren't good. Or spin up something based on Bitcoin or the like. It's not a focus of current development.
Lapsa
6 years, 6 months ago
I don't, but: https://puu.sh/y4W3D/de5205b19c.png Doesn't the high-lighted part protect artists?
torchlight
6 years, 5 months ago
Apparently not, since someone I support had to remove all their animated bestiality content, which somehow includes anthro monsters with humans.
Lapsa
6 years, 5 months ago
Well I just got finished talking with them via email - and they said it was dependent on each individual case so I couldn't be given a definitive answer.
BizyMouse
6 years, 6 months ago
you just have to store the stuff that violates their TOS somewhere else.
MistahToonCatUwU
6 years, 6 months ago
just give out the cub shiz in emails or discord
EricAdler
6 years, 6 months ago
Other artists have tried this route, and it looks like, when Patreon is cracking down on someone, they go after that person for off-site content that is even mentioned through Patreon.
NyuroraXBigdon
6 years, 6 months ago
Puedo saber donde te enteraste de esto? como creador tambien debo saber pero no encuentro nada de ello ni por su Facebook o su Twitter nisiquiera un correo de llamando.

Lo maximo que encontre ha sido, que debes marcar tu pagina como contenido NSFW y no dejar aquel contenido sea visible publicamente sino por almenos aquellos que hayan sean Patreons de 1 dolar.

Terminos y condiciones de Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/legal
Facebook de Patreon: https://twitter.com/patreon
Twitter oficial de Patreon: https://www.facebook.com/patreon

No han hecho ningun anuncio por estos medios como puedes ver.

~BIGDON
NyuroraXBigdon
6 years, 6 months ago
CLICK

~BIGDON
SALTORII
6 years, 6 months ago
did you have a suggestion for the choice?
EricAdler
6 years, 6 months ago
There's a lot of comparison between furry porn and Game of Thrones going on here, pointing out that GoT also has content that is technically in violation of the ToS.  However, there is a big difference that is being overlooked:

GoT is currently being sponsored by a deep-pockets Corporation, so GoT is given a 'pass' because it would be expensive to fight off the corporate lawsuits generated to protect it.  Furry artists, on the other hand, do not have the several hundred thousand dollars in a "legal defense fund" to fight off such attacks, and so are easy prey.

The section about the Trust and Safety team taking context, including historical, personal, or educational narrative is their CYA line to be inconsistent with enforcement.  GoT violates the ToS, but it is popular, backed by a big corporation, and brings in big bucks to the site, so it is deemed 'acceptable within its context.'  Furry erotica, on the other hand, has a smaller audience, lacks corporate backing, and is a trickle in site revenue compared to GoT, so furries get the ToS enforced against them, while George R. R. Martin (The man's so big around the middle he needed a second middle name to cover the girth?) escapes enforcement.
graymuzzle
6 years, 5 months ago
This certainly calls into question whether "Tina's story" will continue to develop it's Patreon presence Based on this, I'm inclined to say 'No'.
Tazer
6 years, 5 months ago
Generally speaking I'd say you're safe with Patreon as long as you host your tos breaching files off-site, and don't use Patreon to communicate the distribution of such content. A lot of Patreon users have their stuff in conjunction with the likes of Discord and other communications services. Obviously don't use these services as your sole means of communication, as if Patreon sees you aren't updating at all, they may think you've stopped using it completely, which could harm your income.
Shokuji
6 years, 5 months ago
Seems like everyone is sorta moving to using Discord as their distribution platform while continuing to use Patreon as a tool to collect support. Just make sure you're running Discord on your own hardware so you don't risk being shut down (shota/loli/cub is against their TOS but only on their hardware, apparently).
Namingway
6 years, 5 months ago
Well that sure didn't last long.
sonictopfan
6 years, 5 months ago
huh, feeling like I dodged a bullet here, I hope things work out for you though and everyone who uses patreon or any similar source of income.
Rayfox
6 years, 5 months ago
I already set up an account over on Enty and HicceArts so if you move to either one I'll follow you
Hoshiko
6 years, 5 months ago
This is out of a real recent occurrence with the patreon staff:
Patreon account - 600$/month income
Patreon admins checked it after report, found shota on it. Artist removed all reported pictures and used links instead. That was also not allowed. Now he switched to a website and only posts "new posts available". and sfw art too.

So patreon + "my pixiv" memberlist and no posts on patreon works and is accepted by their admins.

Also. The admins never removed his account or income. Only warned him and told him what needs removal.

So there´s still ways to use patreon even for extreme content
BunnyArtist47
6 years, 5 months ago
So. Is it all porn in general or just that of extreme cases?

To me, it also seems only a small minority of Artist's that I personally follow and support are bringing up the situation.
BunnyArtist47
6 years, 5 months ago
By that of extreme cases the tos line of-
"We have zero tolerance when it comes to the glorification of sexual violence which includes bestiality, rape, and child exploitation (i.e., sexualized depiction of minors). This is true for illustrated, animated, or any other type of content."

Beyond all the blacksheep artist and those that rely in my opinion too heavily on Patreon, only seems loli and cub artist are in the uproar.
alphamule
6 years, 4 months ago
Let them enjoy their fetid swamp.  This, along with the new fee structure is killing them ATM.  I didn't like them already (preferred to pay the likes of Booth users than Patreon or DLSite), but this is why I can't in good conscious even consider using them as artist or consumer!

*Stays off the backwater site*
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