Inkbunny

See that's the thing..I live in the southern part of the US. You'd think you'd see some dumbass shit like the alt-right here. But nope...it's shocking.

Btw, if I may make a correction to your nazi statements. The alte-right are groups like the KKK, nut jobs that are indeed racist and hate anyone that's not Baptist, so they even hate certain white people. The nazis was a fascist movement and an actual political group dedicated to keeping the opposition from speaking with death threats and violent acts.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ DragonPen

I tend to find that in areas that have been strongly ONE thing for a while.. you will see pockets of "the other extream: pop up allmost like some kinda weird.. defience.. I mean look at fucking sweeden.

Nice, comfortable sweeden, windmills flowers...death metal?

Canada is pretty liberal by US standards, so it would make sence that some people are starting to chafe and they then group up with others who share some of those veiws..over time that group will likely splinter into smaller groups, becouse they will end up going "yeah...all the immigration makes me uncomfortable but you guys are actual fascists im out!" and so on.

I could be wrong but I expect you will see a growth of conservativeism in canda mixed in with extreamists like Neo nazis, and racists, wich will then splinter off and distence themselves from then soon as they realize that fact.

ModestImmorality

6 years, 7 months ago

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Well, I'm right wing but I don't have any problems with trans people. There are many right wing types out there.

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ ModestImmorality

I still don't see anything that makes the right worth it, but I meant to type alt-right.

ModestImmorality

6 years, 7 months ago

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I'm not sure of the differences between right wing and alt-right as I'm not 24/7 political, I just know I'm too conservative to be left. I don't really care about sexualities, races, genders, etc. My focus is mainly on preservation of welfare systems and a more controlled economy in general.

frogstune

6 years, 6 months ago

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@ ModestImmorality

I don't think it matters what political affiliation you identify as, you probably don't share "all" the opinions attached to that affiliation. It is no different then the typical debate I have with religious people, and where they try to pin evolution on me and have me explain it to them, often in response to debating "creationism". But fact is, atheism isn't a belief in any thing, it is simply a disbelief in opposition of the belief in a god. Though it is true that evolutionists are primarily atheist, not every atheist is an evolutionist. And the same applies to the political parties and the individuals that claim their affiliation.

ModestImmorality

6 years, 6 months ago

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@ frogstune

The only evolution I recall we went through was from throwing literal shit to just talking shit.

...Though some people still do the former I'm sure.

frogstune

6 years, 6 months ago

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@ ModestImmorality

Had a "neighbor" in the military smear shit on the walls of his room in our barracks... Not sure what compels people to behave in such ways. =/

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

The alt right and crew hate many things. One thing that doesn't get talked about much (due to it being less political and more about there ego) is they love to infiltrate a place where no one talks about them and when the inevitable backlash happens just use it to shine more attention on them self's. There kind only knows how to be fake persecuted when it comes to those in the US

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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To me, they're known to want people gone and/or dead because they're not white cis and christian and born in the us

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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I agree, but I'm more pointing out there tactics on this one. Most people know about there reasons, but do not talk of there (and this one of few times this word can even remotely apply) subtitle tactics.

Izelith

6 years, 7 months ago

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What's alt-right?

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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nazis who don't dare call themselves nazis.

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

Basically a political party in the US that wants be able kill or literally torturer people into being Christina. Basically American ISIS but in the fledgling stages, or the very early Nazi party before the got in control.

Skunket

6 years, 7 months ago

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Actually "alt-right" is against anybody who is not american, cis, binary or hetero (and white of course).... they are the new american nazis.
-------------

'alt-right' or 'alternative right' is a name currently embraced by some white supremacists and white nationalists to refer to themselves and their ideology, which emphasizes preserving and protecting the white race in the United States in addition to, or over, other traditional conservative positions such as limited government, low taxes and strict law-and-order. The movement has been described as a mix of racism, white nationalism and populism ... criticizes "multiculturalism" and more rights for non-whites, women, Jews, Muslims, gays, immigrants and other minorities. Its members reject the American democratic ideal that all should have equality under the law regardless of creed, gender, ethnic origin or race

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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This is a better detailed definition.

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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Thanks.
I'm upset so I'm not about doing searches for definitions rn

DragonPen

6 years, 7 months ago

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It's a false definition actually...that's a political one, not an actual definition. Here is the literal one.

: Nazi; plural noun: Nazis
1.
historical
a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
derogatory
a person with extreme racist or authoritarian views.
a person who seeks to impose their views on others in a very autocratic or inflexible way.

Glire

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ DragonPen

ContraPoints has an excellent point about why pedantry about calling someone a nazi is, in fact, a common tactic by nazis: https://youtu.be/Sx4BVGPkdzk?t=551 (9 minutes 11 seconds in, if the time code doesn't work)

The short form is, dudes with nazi beliefs (and the alt-right do harbour beliefs taken straight from the National Socialist party of 1940s Germany) bog people down in petty squabbles about definitions about what words mean in order to avoid talking about their real policy goals, which are, to wit, ethnic cleansing and white supremacy.

I'm not saying using this tactic makes you a nazi or a white supremacist, but I am saying that by being pedantic about definitions, you're helping them do their dirty work, and if you don't want to do that, you might want to alter how you talk about this subject.

DragonPen

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Glire

I am helping NO ONE do their dirty work. To say such a thing is another tactic used by the nazi party...and used by the alt-left currently. I am merely trying to show how ideology can cause calling one group of people a nazi while in fact that name-calling group is using nazi tactics themselves. BOTH ARE BAD. End of story. Both alt groups are nothing more than nazis themselves because they BOTH use the same reterick whether they realize it or not.

Keeran

6 years, 7 months ago

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Actually, the Alt-Right is a movement that showed up after Mitt Romney lost the 2012 Election. They called themselves the "Alternative Right" to change and reform the Republican Party. Basically they were tired of Republican Party's bullshit of saying on thing, and being half-assed in their promises or just going in the opposite direction, especially after they agreed to policies like the Affordable Care Act and such, despite campaigning against "Obamacare" Movements like the Libertarian Party (which at the time held more right-leaning people) were part of this  "alt-Right" that wanted to break from  what the Republican Party had become. Most were  trying to get Ron Paul  to become the Republican candidate but instead, Romney won.

The thing is,  The term "Alt-Right" started to apply to Nazis and White Nationalists by many articles, not on their own identity. "Far-Right" was a more appropriate and used term since pretty much everyone saw and still see them as scumbags who can't get over the fact Civil Rights was a thing or that their lord and savior, Adolf Hitler lost WWII.  And yes, prior to that, Libertarians started to separate from the Right wing to become their own party since Left-leaning Libertarians exist (Libertarians believe in little to no government interactions especially in the realms of the free market. Separate from Statism beliefs that Republicans pushed for. A Libertarian can personally support or not support what other people do with their lives, but support their right to exercise their bodily autonomy free from government regulation on things such as abortions and whatnot.)

The thing is now,  The definition of the Alt-right is so convoluted now that I personally rather call a spade a spade. You have some people who support trans in the military and believe that taxpayers should foot the bill for their Surgery/HRT, others who support trans in the military yet do not support paying for their HRT/surgery, then you have scumbags who don't support them at all and call them perverts (and surprise surprise, they don't support gay people in the military. Joke's on them being that they already have despite restrictive laws prohibiting their entry)

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Keeran

this exactly!

the so called "alternative Right" was never intended to be a nazi or hate based movement. It was an attempt to change the way the right did things, and then it got co opted by internet trolls...and then actual nazis XD

Like this BS about PEPE the frong being a hate symbole..thats ludacris horse shit. PEPE is a blank slate you can USE him as a hate symbol but the original PEPE's were just part of the "Feels bad man" MEME on 4chan.

Keeran

6 years, 7 months ago

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I've seen/Used pepe memes before this whole nazi thing. The day the "dat boi" frog meme showed up, i was livid man!

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Keeran

yeah i laughed my ass off with i saw MSNBC do a report on PEPE the frong lol as a "hate symbole' i was like..

You know Nothing John Snow!

Glire

6 years, 7 months ago

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Hey, I responded to someone else with ContraPoints' video, and lo and behold, they have a section on symbols too! https://youtu.be/Sx4BVGPkdzk?t=608 (10 minutes 8 seconds in, if the time code doesn't work)

The short form is, fascists and hate groups are continuously adopting and rotating out symbols in order to identify theirselves to those in the know without normal people catching on, and when this is pointed out as a tactic, it allows them to say 'look, now SJWs think 👌🏻 is racist, because they think everything is racist!" It's a smokescreen: If hate groups use the symbol to identify each other, it's a hate symbol. Period.

Again, I don't think using this argument means you're a fascist or a white supremacist. But you are doing their dirty work, and I'd consider changing how you talk about these things in order to stop helping them.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Glire

Im not going to stop useing a symbol a joke an image ect, that I like find hilarious or find harmless like the aformentioned OK hand sign you showed off above... just becouse some fringe group of fuck heads decided they wanted to also use it.. thats insane. Im not just gonna "give them" whatever they decide to use..and nither should you.

Words and symbols have only as much power as you give them, there are ways to difuse a word or a symbol, intent is what matters, one drawing of pepe dressed as a nazi as a joke that then got picked up by some dip shits does not make PEPE itself a hate symbol... I honestly Never could fathum were this "OH MY GOD!!! THEY TOUCHED IT! NOW IT'S EVIL!!!" Logic came from.

if you ask me that just gives the symbol more power...

Skunket

6 years, 7 months ago

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<3.... I have no words for what you said and I do support this so much.

BlazeMG

6 years, 7 months ago

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Hating trans people makes no sense to me and the so-called "alt right" are largely a bunch of racist bigoted lunatics anyway.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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There is no such thing as the "alt-right". It's a name SJWs use to demonize anyone that disagrees with them in anything. I have been called alt-right just for leaning slightly to the conservative side in some particular issues. I had to actually google it to see what it meant because I had never heard the term. Of course, the same person who called me that also called me Nazi, fascist, and racist in the same sentence. They use all those terms interchangeably to call anyone they don't like.

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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So basically what the right dose anytime a someone not straight, or not "normal" wants go about there business without being harassed.

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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If you haven't heard the term, then you're lucky!
As a trans person, this whole thing is fucking scary to me. There are people who want to kill people like me based on the political side they support. If you've got nothing to fear, good for you! But living with the knowledge that even here, not even in the US, people support the idea so much that they actually display it while calling themselves patriots, I think I got a reason to fucking hate it.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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You live in fear if you want to live in fear. Some people have an interest in you believing people of some particular political leaning are monsters waiting for your around every corner to kill you. You hate "them" because you have been told they hate you. So I guess now you hate me too, despite not even knowing me.

The world is a lot more complex than that.

MalachiteTiger

6 years, 7 months ago

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I mean... some of us in the trans community have had neighbors who were literally murdered for being trans, so... I'd call it sensible caution for the sake of self-preservation rather than "want to live in fear."

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ MalachiteTiger

I understand that. But there is also those who profit from exaggerating the situation to make it look like there is an all-out war out there. There always have been a-holes, racists, homophobes and even people who would kill someone just for looking weird... I don't deny that. I have actually seen cases of that and I have even defended people from that.

I have been inhabiting this skin for half a century now, I can tell you the world today is a bazillion times more tolerant and accepting that it was when I was a kid. Mankind has moved in that direction a longest distance in the last twenty years than in the previous 5000.

But if you listen to some sectors of the media, they try to make it look like it's the opposite like bigotry has multiplied and become worse. Turn on the TV and all they talk about is Nazis making a comeback.

In my opinion, it has to do with cable news services losing audience to newest technology like Internet and mobile platforms. They need to keep their business running and fear sells. They need a new "the sky is falling" scenario every week to keep the audience from walking out.

MalachiteTiger

6 years, 7 months ago

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Well, I mean, the current president did pick a guy who wanted homosexuality to be re-criminalized to be his domestic policy advisor, and another who took the same position back in 2003 to be his attorney general, and someone who donated the anti-gay lobbyist group of the former to run the Department of Education.

It's not like people are hallucinating.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ MalachiteTiger

As I said, when I was young school books still called homosexuality an "aberration" and homosexuals were institutionalized and subjected to electroshock therapy to "cure" them of their "disease". That was "science" back then.

We don't live in a perfect world, but we have gone a long way from that in recent times.

But some people nowadays pretend that accidentally being called by the wrong noun is an offense equal to Hitler's extermination programs.

People. Need. Perspective.

MalachiteTiger

6 years, 7 months ago

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Misgendering isn't about someone accidentally being called the wrong pronoun.
It's because lots of trans people (Probably a large majority) have people deliberately and willfully getting it wrong as a form of low-key harassment.

At least understand what it is people are objecting to before you call them unreasonable for objecting to it.

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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I don't know if it's much help, but I do know what it's like to both live in fear, and be hated for who/what you are.

BrokenPupper

6 years, 7 months ago

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Are you fucking serious?

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

@ BrokenPupper

Yes, this very common in the US especially the deep south region witch is basically a mini theocracy.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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How typical. The one claiming to oppose "haters" and "intolerance" showers me with stereotypical insults based on my geographic location.

That's why I love about your kind, your hypocrisy speaks for itself. All I have to do is sit back and watch.

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

Whats that old saying Republicans like to throw around? "It isn't racist if its true." and the complaints of "Cant call a spade a spade?" Welcome to the other side of the coin. I live in one of the many states where can I legally be refused life saving services like EMS and what have you, just because the guys on the truck don't want to save someone not of there ideology. Remember, "Its not hypocrisy if its true."

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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I have no idea what you are talking about.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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What does my comment have to do with "denying services" or whatever your story is there? Coins? Spades? I have no idea what you are talking about. I guess you have list of topics you need to plug into the conversation at the first possible chance you get... but at least try to make them relevant or something. You are making it really confusing.

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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Sorry about that, might have been before your time. Basically phrases like that are common place here and basically used to justify treating people badly based on purely political, gender, orientation or anything else they wanted to be blatantly offensive about.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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Before my time?

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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They are older phrases that are falling out of use in lue more blatant slogans. Mostly keep going older generation still using from time to time.

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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cliff notes/ short form answer. Basically alot of us do not like the right due alot of them pushing laws from an outdated view that make getting even basic necessity's like medical care harder to get.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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I get it, I get it.

You are angry and the world. I'm part of the world. Hence you are angry at me.

I get it... I was a teenager too.

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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Wrong, I'm angry cause at any given time I can legally be refused the medicine I pay for that keeps me from going blind just because I don't hold the beliefs of the majority.

Amaterasu

6 years, 7 months ago

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i think he's trying to elicit a reaction out of you. either that or he truly believes that you said something absolutly unforgivable to him. I'm trying to rationalize his actions towards what you've said and I cant do it

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Amaterasu

That's possible, or it could be something else I've noticed recently. I live in a deeply republican region, therefore the tend be filtered. I here what they would only say to others that know for a fact agree with them. He may not get the unfiltered version so to speak so may not have same experience as a point of reference.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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It actually exists, it was founded by Mike Cernovich and Google Alaska (On Twitter), and unfortunately a lot of their ideals and attitudes align with a big majority of the elements that make up Fascism, the one thing stopping them from actually being Fascist is that they have been speaking for and fighting for free speech.

You're still not entirely wrong, because that has also become a political dog whistle to negatively tag ANYONE who doesn't agree with the ideals of AntiFa, an organization that not only checks all the marks of a fascist organization, but also employs the same terrorist tactics used by the Kremlin.

Long and short of it, the Alt-Right and AntiFa are both collectivist degenerates, and I want nothing to do with either of them. I may be a mixed race trans woman of colour (Fillipina/Spanish), but it won't matter to people like Saucy, because while they claim to be in support for trans people, they will still throw people like me who refuse to bow down to social justice fascism under the bus all the same.

catgirlsister

6 years, 7 months ago

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Sorry for butting in like this, but I think the reason alt-righters are "fighting for free speech" is because they want to be able to say whatever horrendous thing they want with zero consequences. Also, keep in mind anti-fascists wouldn't be out there punching white supremacists and nazis if there wasn't any fascism to fight. It's not a big battle between two equals that can be defused by handwringing and denouncing all violence. The proper way to "fight" them is to denounce white supremacy, support marginalized folks, and make sure the alt-right (or any fascist groups) doesn't have a national platform for their terrible views.

Also, I can't speak for every person of color in the universe, obviously, but I'm a nonbinary folk from Mexico, and I support what Saucy's doing, and I'm willing to bet they stand with all of us. I say these things because americans are our neighbors and I'm worried that whatever evil spawn that emerges from that alt-right movement will try to influence us and the rest of Latin America if they're successful in their racist, transphobic tirade. I want to be proud of our neighbors, not afraid of what they might do to us if they give their most despicable members a free pass because "antifa are just as bad" or something.

(If this doesn't make much sense to you, by all means feel free to PM me about it!)

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

And I am the kind of person who respects honesty over niceness. Forcing people who are bigoted towards us to repress their feelings will only cause those feelings to fester and turn ugly over time. For a lot of my friends, I was the first direct contact with a trans person they've had, and prior to that point, they've held quite a few beliefs that would tar and feather them from the trans community. But because I've listened to their perspective, hung out with them and reached out to them, their attitudes towards trans folk have improved a lot.

I don't want false acceptance, I don't want to be accepted by someone who can't be honest enough to tell me how they really feel, and I cannot be friends with someone who is too scared to be honest with me. I think that a majority of bigotry comes from bad experiences in the past or ignorance, and it would be far more productive to reach out to the core of their issues and address them than to attack them until they capitulate. Attacking bigots will only work if your world view is constructed out of high time preference, and I cannot respect that, as it often does more long term harm than good.

Consider this IAMA on racism and befriending klansmen: https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/70vcr0/im_daryl_d...

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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To go into more detail in certain bits of your posts, my position has never been to denounce violence. I have beaten the crap out of racists before, but the important difference is that I only acted when they started crossing beyond speech into acts of aggression, like firing bb guns at us. The last kid that tried that was sent flying across the gazebo with a single kick.

You also have to understand that I do all of that already. I've never been one to approve of bigotry, I've always been supportive of marginalized folk around myself, and I've done a lot to denounce fascism wherever it pops up, including threats to individualism and free speech and the rise of tribalism. I never really felt the need to advertize them, because that is not the entirety of my personality. I am a person, not a collection of issues, and I'd like to think that my actions will do more to prove my beliefs than virtue-signalling them.

catgirlsister

6 years, 7 months ago

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I respect that you're so willing to denounce fascism and all, but it becomes a problem when you equate antifa with the alt-right by implying they're using terrorist tactics. Antifa don't lead hate rallies or advocate for ethnic cleansing or run over and stab people in broad daylight. For that reason, I think it's really dangerous for people to treat all sides with the same disdain, which is where the comment over denouncing violence came from. Not everyone is willing to wait until racists become violent to oppose them, much less put their bodies on the line if it comes to that. (But kudos to you for being brave enough to do that.)

Another problem is that, while you can absolutely sit down with your friends, family, neighbors, etc. and explain why what they're doing or saying is wrong, you can't do that with the complete strangers who could hurt you if given the chance. Daryl Davis' method is kindhearted, and I'll be taking that advice you linked to heart if someone close to me espouses hateful views. Its one big flaw, though, is that it treats horrible views on race as something that can be solved across a whole country by just talking to the white supremacists. Debating them is a bad idea because they see it as a chance to spread their awful rhetoric under the guise of civil discussion. But there's nothing civil about their views or methods, and pretending it is normalizes it. That's REALLY dangerous.

I really really hope I don't come off as rude or dismissive about your stance here, but I take this stuff very seriously, and it pains me to see good and sensible people making excuses for why they don't shun these guys. Lots of people seemed perfectly willing to shun the alt-right and support antifa folks when the Charlottesville attack happened. At the very least, I hope my arguments -- that antifa isn't equal or worse, and that bigots should be shunned, not debated -- make a little bit of sense, as sloppy as they are (just thinking about this stuff too much makes me anxious as all hell). There's a reason why I picked a side and am so wary of letting bigots do their thing: it's less about "virtue-signalling" and more about "not wanting to get harassed or threatened over who I am."

(And again, if something doesn't sound clear, just PM me. I'd rather not muck up Saucy's journal even further. Thanks for hearing me out.)

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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Dude... Antifa Does use facist tactis. I have watched them light things on fire beat people with sticks, chanting hatefull slogans at people, pepper spray unarmed protesters in the face, throw tocks, thow Literal feces! throw bricks, ect.

If they think can can "fight facism" with facism, there going to be sorely mistaken. Even Most of the normal elemnts of the left have started to disavow them. Maybe at the beginning they had pure intentions, but there little more then anarcho communist shit bags now. There Moraly less vile then say actual Nazi's but there willing to stoop to levels of violance that so far the actual fucking nazi's and clansman have NOT.

im not saying they WONT but lately ANTIFA has cuased a lot more damage to property and to people then they have. the charlettevillie murder not withstanding.

If your Anti facist group, makes the facists look better then you..your fucking it up.

Belive me Fuck the Klan fuck the Neo Nazi's ect. But i gotta toss antifa on that pyre as well.

Fuck ANYBODY who uses violance and fear to achive there goals.

catgirlsister

6 years, 7 months ago

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If you think those things are bad enough, just read what the alt-right's been doing. The links I posted on a comment farther below (here & here for your convenience) are from May and August of this year, and I saw all of that as it happened. Antifa didn't kill innocent people in those attacks. Obviously, antifa get violent, too, but like I said, it's as a response to the violence from the alt-right. It wouldn't be necessary if actual fascists weren't stabbing people and running them over.

You've got the right idea, and I'm happy that you don't tolerate any of these racist groups, but denouncing "both sides" as equally bad is a nearsighted way of looking at this whole mess. White supremacists are trying to get rid of everyone they deem undesirable. Antifa are trying to stop them. This next part is important (to me, at least): You can acknowledge that antifa's tactics are violent while also acknowledging that they pale in comparison to the horrible things white supremacists have already done -- and consistently threaten to do. But it's dangerous to think of them as equally bad things. It only makes it worse, and people aren't willing to wait until nazis get more power or kill more people to confront them.

There's no massive communist/socialist/anarchist/whatever movement in the US killing innocent people. But there is a fascist one that has done just that, and in broad daylight. Please don't equate them. And while we're at it, confront the alt-righters and transphobes in our own community. We would super appreciate it if more people stood up against them.

(P.S: I know it's just a slip-up, but don't call me "dude," sorry! Anything gender-neutral is fine.)

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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"	(P.S: I know it's just a slip-up, but don't call me "dude," sorry! Anything gender-neutral is fine.)

to be fare.. your a colorful icon i have never interacted with before, your political social ideological and gender identities are all completely unknown to me. So no offense was intended, though I do wish to point out I refer to "dude" as rather neutral. I grew up in Cali, everybody is a dude there. Just like "hey man" doesn't automatically denote im speaking to a male, though I suppose that is often the case. I wont go out of my way to guess your preferred pronouns and honestly.. I dont know you, so I've no incentive to care, but for the remainder I will try to refrain of masculin pronouns such as he, him, man, dude ect. Though I useualy call everybody by dude or hey man.

As for the actual post, I look at it this way. KKK white nationalists and neo nazi's are bad people at worst, and misguided people at best, but as long as there not cammiting violance or breaking the law, i couldent give less of a fuck about em.

the majority of politicaly motivated violance i have seen, accepting the car icident, has been from ANTIFA. So while Ideologicaly speaking the extream right fuckers are worse, ANTIFA is the one burning shit to the ground..

So im actualy more worried about ANTIFA at the moment.

One peice of shit might be worse then the other, but two wrongs dont make a right, and you cant say that just becouse ONE turd smells a bit LESS like a turd, that it is anything other then a turd. Bad is bad, Dagress of HOW bad is just samantics.

I am tired of the identify politics.

ANTIFA are a bunch of hypocritcal communist douch bags, there not helping anything so in my book, since actions speak louder then words, there just as bad yes. Even if there NOT "just as bad" there still bad... we should not defend them.

catgirlsister

6 years, 7 months ago

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(Well, I have a lot of Cali friends who can attest to how easy it is to slip dudes and mans into every sentence, so don't sweat it. Thank you for caring enough to use proper pronouns, I appreciate it a lot.)

Now... as a mexican, I very much care about what white supremacists have to say, considering americans are our next-door neighbors. In fact, I care way more about what those groups are doing than antifa. Not that I don't care about the latter or anything, but I don't exactly stay up at night thinking "dang, I hope antifa don't throw another brick at the police." In the end, to me at least, it's about what group poses the most immediate, believable danger to those I love, and most of the ones I love happen to be marginalized folks.

I could sit here and argue about semantics and identity politics and privilege all night, but I don't have the stamina for it, and I don't want to make folks like you who are opposing hate groups tune out altogether. I just ask that you think about it from my point of view (I already have from yours, for what it's worth) and listen to people like me who are gravely worried about the way things are going in the US. If I sound upset or anything, it's because I'm literally worried sick about this stuff. I'm done for the night (I've had a nasty headache for a while now), but feel free to PM me about this anytime. I'm just really tired.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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well in summery XD We might not agree on whos the bigger threat but i tend to veiw the white supremacists as a very loud angry and stupid minority =p most sane people dont listen to them.

I just dont like how antifa kinda gets a pass well..no, thats not fare. they have gotten a pass untill RECENTLY lately there bullshits been called into question and critisized so im happy about that i was onoy mag about it before people SOME not all but SOME people on the left were acting like there were damn heros lol. There an anarcho communist group XD there crazy as they come.

Dont worry about the white supremacists to much the vast majority of white americans even republicans dont hate based on race. some of us are pretty ahrd line against "illegal" imigration but perfectly fine with normal immigration. lets me honest america is a nation of imigrents and while I am MASSIVELY anti illegal, i am also pro makeing it less of a pain in the ASS to become a citizen

Stay safe man.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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I promissed not to use man I am sorry force of habit. I Just ment, please stay safe...I've herd about the shit goong down in Mexico with the 7.1 earth quake thats some scary shit.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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This video is a close approximation on how I determine degrees of fascism. AntiFa promotes group primacy, they promote a victim narrative, they are collectivist rather than individualist, they are very tribalistic, they tie their morale to the grandeur of the group, they gravitate towards SJW thought leaders and they promote the beauty of violence and of their will when faced with leading the group to success in a Darwinian struggle. They hit all the notes that makes a Fascist group Fascist, and quite honestly, I found that my way of dealing with Fascism, by being agnostic towards political leanings of each group, and denouncing elements rather than labels, to be far more effective. I am an individualist and a freedom lover, and I would prioritize those over safety.

That is not to say that their idea is wrong, it's their approach that is the problem. Very few understand that this isn't a problem with people, it's a problem of memetics. You need to understand how ideas are formed and spread, how they interact and resonate with each other. How can you hope to fight a problem if you don't know its true nature? At the very least you understand the idea of memetic contamination when talking about the risk of taking on bad ideas yourself, but understand that you're putting yourself more at risk by fighting the people who carry those ideas. Also know that there are ways to harden yourself from outside influence, the way I've learned it is to spend years arguing with people on all sorts of subjects from all perspectives. In a way, it's like building up your immune system, memetic seclusion (aka safe spaces) will only serve to make you more vulnerable to bad ideas taking hold of your mind whether you would be able to realize it or not.

To understand why I model my world view this way, I am not an atheist, but an animist. I see people as being connected to one another inextricably, which is why I can't abide by the idea that people with bad ideas are there to be shunned, because the same standard could be applied to me, for any other reason, and it would be just as justified because their perceptions are just as valid as mine. I also don't believe that people's beliefs and world views are set in stone, I am a constantly evolving individual, forever introspective, and forever self-revising, and that same principle applies to people who happen to fall under the definition of bigot, especially when re-evaluating one's own views to accommodate their friends, which is what humans tend to do.

Of course, there are people from whom I have to separate from for my own safety, but that is more a matter of cost/benefit analysis than a matter of principle. Those events are exceedingly rare, because I am unable to feel fear for my own safety, only the fear that comes from social anxiety and for other people's safety.

catgirlsister

6 years, 7 months ago

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Excuse me if I don't type another text wall for this, but all this stuff gave me a headache and I'd rather not hear yet another excuse for why shunning white supremacists is bad and anti-fascists are just as fascist and related things I disagree with. Just read the reply I left Kevin above and that should give you the gist of it re: antifa stuff.

And I should note, I'm not calling for everyone right of center to be silenced or something like that. Like I said earlier, talking to those close to you and rehabilitating them works, but that won't work if it's strangers you're working with, and especially not if they want to hurt you. Lord knows I was part of some really vile circles (though not as vile as... y'know) when I was younger. But I didn't get better by asking everyone to be polite and sit down with me and deliver their thesis on Why I Fucked Up. Friends called me out, told me why something I did was wrong, and asked me to do better. It was rough. But I became a better person for it (or at least, that's what I'd like to believe).

People aren't always gonna make peace and reach a hand out for this sort of stuff. There's value in helping people you know out of terrible places and mindsets, but there's a limit to how far they can fall before they have to realize on their own that what they believe in is flawed and pull themselves out. If you can't agree with any of that, well, I can't force you to, and I won't hassle you about it. But at least consider why I have this stance in the first place. That's all.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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It's not an excuse, it's my abject refusal to live in fear. I am tired of trans support groups promoting a culture of victimhood rather than strength, and I am tired of seeing the tragic results of the false positives your group has made actual victims out of in your crusade to exclude bad people™. Painting them as such seems like just as much of an excuse to hurt people from my point of view, even if they may be bad.

bencoon

6 years, 7 months ago

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Err, what? 'alt right' is a term coined and adopted by neo-nazis and white supremacists who wanted to try to look more socially acceptable (See: Richard Spencer) and try to put a civilized veneer onto their actions and behavior. They are labeling themselves this, not some amorphous insidious cabal of SJWs.

You may be confusing it with 'alt left', which is a term made up out of whole cloth to try to push a 'both sides are equally bad' narrative.

BrokenPupper

6 years, 7 months ago

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THIS!! FINALLY SOMEONE THAT KNOWS!

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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I was under the impression the the term Alt Left came about as a way to seperate Normal left thinking folk from crazy black mask wareing communists with bricks and motov cocktails. XD

If you ask me we can use it, not everybody on the left supports groups like ANTIFA. even if there "not as bad as Nazi's" there still pretty bad. I've seen some serius shit from them. I dont think they represent the left well at all.

bencoon

6 years, 7 months ago

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You would be incorrect. 'alt left' as a term was made up, unsurprisingly, by the same people who try to argue that 'antifa' is an organization to discredit the people protesting and fighting back against the neo-nazi groups like the ones in Charlottesville.

Did you not notice how 'antifa' didn't become a term until certain media entities needed a way to 'balance' the alarming rise of white supremacist groups emboldened by Trump's support? 'Antifa' is a political position. Anti Fascist. If you are against nazis, you are antifa. It's kind of like if you jerk it to furry porn, you are a furry. Certain media elements are trying to push a group called Black Bloc as the some total of the concept of antifa, but that group does not have any support outside their own circle.

But consider this; the 'alt right' neo nazis already have a very public bodycount. The violence has already begun, and frankly, I think it's foolish to tut at people who wish to defend themselves.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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I gues that makes me antifa to then XD

by the lose definition of the Acronym at least.

I am sure not every protester self identifying as an ANTIFA member is a bad person, but I cant forgive the violance i have seen from black mask wareing weapon brandishing thugs waveing hammer and sickle flags and chanting anti american, anti captalist, pro communism c=slogans.

Those people are makeing shit worse, it's impossible for me to take the movement seriously if there most visual members resort to fascism, to fight fascism.

Nobody is (or should anyway) be argueing that the Nazis are the good guys. But when Antfa or perhaps I would be bettter served by stateing "Black Block" protestors and counter protestors, are throwing fire bombs and smashing shit, there not HELPING the case any. Last time I checked, the Neo nazi armies were not rounding up people into camps, and we still had the rule of law..so we dont need clusters of masked vigilanties with a political agenda policeing stuff for us.

there bad

they may not be KKK ot white supremacist bad, Ideological speaking, but that doesn't make them LESS bad. they both need to fuck off.

bencoon

6 years, 7 months ago

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Citation please? I'd LOVE to see these supposed hordes of communists. There have been protests in the thousands with fewer arrests than the beerfest down the street.

No, the neonazis are just threatening people with firearms, beating and attacking... oh yeah, and they already have a body count. You do realize that most of the fighting, the recorded instigators are in fact members of white supremacist groups? Cameras are everywhere. So, yeah, it's understandable that protesters are starting to arm up. I dunno about you, but I do believe in self defense.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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Im not defending the neo nazis man. there fuck heads. I just refuse to give ANTIFA a pass for there bullshit either.

Children please.. if you cant both play nice go and sit in the corner lol.

Fuck facism on both sides.

as for citation... just youtube antifa... or take a look at Berkly in 2016 when Milo whent to speak there.. yeah he's a provocature but they started lighting shit ON FIRE just beocuse they diddent want him there. they cuased thousends in damages XD

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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That may be how the term originated, but that definition is meaningless now. The word is definitely used as an umbrella term for "everyone we don't like" by the left. I heard the term for the first time when I "liked" a comment condemning a recent terrorist attack in Europe on Facebook which prompted someone to call me an "alt-right racist". I googled it and I found out it had something to do with green cartoon frogs.

It may have been originally the name of an actual group in Alaska, but today it has transcended into the memetic realm.

bencoon

6 years, 7 months ago

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Nope, sorry, that's still what it is despite whatever silliness you may or may not have seen on facebook. It's still a self-identified label, worn by people who proudly display some pretty horrific opinions and behaviors.

ThaPig

6 years, 7 months ago

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In that case, I apologize for being uninformed and recant my "there is no such thing as..." comment.

I was sincerely unaware there are actual people who use the term to describe themselves. My opinion was based on what I had experienced so far: the use of the term as a generic insult directed at a wide range of people. As I mentioned, someone called me that for having opinions that are not even all that right-leaning.

bencoon

6 years, 7 months ago

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Facebook is dumb. I don't know what your comment was that prompted that person's response and to be honest, I don't care to find out. But I appreciate the apology.

BrokenPupper

6 years, 6 months ago

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The depressing part is that the alt-right wants to hide their seriousness under "memes" and coding, mimicking the Nazis from WW2. Nazis have always taken an interest in occult symbols like the Black Sun and like the swastika itself, but more obscure symbols can be useful as a kind of secret handshake, a way for fascists to recognize each other, without the unaware taking notice. The best symbols to use for that purpose are ones that are not generally associated with Nazis, or at least have other meanings, like the Othala rune or the iron cross. The alt-right have been doing the same with Pepe the frog and the OK sign. It's pretty creepy.

Keeran

6 years, 7 months ago

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The Alt-right is a thing. It was the movement to counter and reform the Republican Party after the 2102 Election. But then people started mixing them with nazis and white nationalists. and then it turned into a shitstorm.

Soulfire

6 years, 7 months ago

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this is soo true

Gendasi

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

It's a text-wall, but read to the end. No hate or ill will intended. I'd hate to "trigger" someone by pointing out what should be common sense.

Here's where I become a social leper:

Human beings have two sexes, two genders, and that's it. If you want to be referred to as male, be a fucking male. Get the surgery, change your name, grow a fucking beard. Same thing in the other direction. Get the treatments, learn to shop for bras, all that shit. I'm not going to look at someone who is physically male, behaving as a male, dressing as a male, and sounding like motherfucking Barry-goddamned-White and second guess their "gender identity." If we're friends and you'd prefer I use a different pronoun for you, I'll make the attempt, but I am a man of science.

Science, as in proof. Like "believe it when I see it."

I do NOT support creating a greater rift between people by breaking them up into more groups and factions. I do NOT support making more legislation to handle a minute percentage of the populace as some kind of magic fairy people who shall not suffer. I do NOT support the idea that someone's feelings are more important than the greater populace.

I DO believe that the tiny, vocal minority is a mosquito in everyone's ear that we need to simply tolerate, not cater to.

No extermination, no persecution, no shunning, but also no special treatment. I'm not going to go to a bar, get wasted and stumble into the wrong restroom TWICE because trans individuals want their own restroom. That's a bunch of politically-correct, hand-holding, hugbox, disposable, happy horseshit.

Learn to love one another for our differences, people. Celebrate those differences but don't let them define who we are. Trans or otherwise. Gay, straight, bi, or whatever. Black, white, purple with polka-dots. We're all human beings and should be able to coexist without all this "I'm special and you should treat me as such" garbage that is only making matters worse.

Remember, folks: you may be special and unique, like a snowflake... but every special snowflake looks the same in a blizzard.

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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How about "I read the first few sentences and fuck you already"

Go live in your special safe space where everyone is cis and leave me the fuck alone.
And before you say anything, YOU decided to comment.
Fuck you.

Gendasi

6 years, 7 months ago

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See, this is exactly the problem I wanted to point out.

EVERYONE wants to be safe but rather than everyone getting along, we have the Alt-Right, we have the Far Left, we have the <insert> Live Matter groups, and none are willing to step back and take a look at where they're all upset.

Nobody feels respected.

Nobody.

I have a friend who is trans and I struggle daily with referring to her as a man. Because I respect her, but damn, it's hard!

I've got a gay friend who I have to remind constantly that I don't need a reminder he's gay. I get it, bro. We're cool. Known your 15 years and we've always been cool.

If we stop being offended by everything and learn to realize that there are people out there we simply don't like, we'll learn to get along better and the hatred can end.

Seriously, I HATE the snobby, uptight vegans we get coming through my place of business (we sell burger, people). I don't hold the actions of a few against the many, though. I also can't stand the preachy religious folks (Deep South) who want to hand out pamplets outside the store. Don't do that!

I believe that treating everyone the same, whether you like them or not, is how you find common ground. If you dismiss someone ENTIRELY by the words they speak and not their character, you're asking for a life of nothing but heartache.

You apparently have made that choice, and I respect that but know that you are in the minority and learn to accept that fact. Not everyone wants to provide you a "safe space." And a "safe space" shouldn't be for "mah feelins" but for people (of all stripes) in genuine need of aid.

Newly-appointed pariah, out.

Skunket

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

"	Gedasi wrote:
	I have a friend who is trans and I struggle daily with referring to her as a man. Because I respect her, but damn, it's hard!

Wonder if your "friend" actually will continue seeing you the same way if he reads how easily you misgender him.

Amaterasu

6 years, 7 months ago

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You don't sugar coat your words but I'm going to have to agree with what you're saying. most groups of people I see or hear running around want to call attention to some negative things people do towards them but then go into nuclear meltdown when they get a negative response and then the acts of those few people are represented on an entire group.

Maybe I'm too "Lax" about the situation or what ever but i've never cared what or how people treat me because of who I am because I sing to my own song.

Gendasi

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Amaterasu

Just read the start of your comment and figured I should reply to someone who took the time to actually read and think for a moment. No reason to sugar coat anything. The pill's just hard to swallow for all involved.

We can continue to discuss in PM if you like, as many people already have. I'm not inclined to give a damn about making it an ongoing dialogue, but some people have wanted to discuss views in a less public space, which I understand.

Seems the "thought police" are out in force and I'm too fucking old to play these games. That "you're wrong and I'm right because I said so" shit was stupid when I was 7 and rolling my eyes at the other kids who believed in Santa Claus.

Also, folks: Jan's not a furry and found the commentary infinitely amusing. Made some commentary about Hillary supporters that I disagree with (voted for the woman myself), and then we went to play Payday.

Just throwing it out there.

Skunket

6 years, 7 months ago

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you are actually using outdated information, there aren't 2 sexes or genders.... I highly recommend you to read about it from updated sources. like WHO for example.

SolarFlareWings

6 years, 7 months ago

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There are only masculine and feminine. It is a spectrum; there are only two sides. What is considered to be masculine/feminine is slightly different depending on society. Also, it is not practical to have more than two genders, for the sake of categorizing thing, and because such a small portion of the population would even use these additional categories. More on this in the third paragraph.

And no, it's perfectly fine to misgender someone trans that you know from time-to-time, especially if you knew them before their transition. What matters is that you don't do it on purpose. My best friend is trans, and very rarely I can still slip up. She doesn't mind. It's okay. Because small, unintentional mistakes like that a trivial and harm no-one. Someone changed a fundamental part of how you think of them, something that, until recently, would have been a constant fact about them. It can be hard to change a part of how you think of someone that's become so embedded in your mind. Again, there is no reason to get upset over a mistake.

On the note of accidental misgendering. If someone looks, for example, male, but isn't, how is that person to know without interrupting/derailing a conversation and asking a highly personal question? It's not practical to ask every person you meet what their gender is, and a lot of people would be offended by the question. I believe you don't get to decide what your gender is to strangers; your appearance and how you present yourself does. That's what people are going to use to make that assumption about you. One the subject of non-binary genders, no one is going to be able to tell what exotic gender you might be by looking at you, much less know the proper "word" for it. All introducing exotic genders does is make interactions for the majority of people more complicated for the benefit of a very small minority of people. That doesn't make any sense.

You, and people like you, need to chill. This is a subject that some people have trouble wrapping their head around and adjusting to. That's fine. It's weird. But that's also fine. It's okay to be different; it's okay to not be different.

Skunket

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

@ SolarFlareWings

I know is normal to do it in real life or internet if they know you before or during your transition... Actually my friends and people I meet don't offend me by the use of male pronouns cause I looks like a boy and is ok for me. But you can see how they use fem pronouns here on IB on me... and I really do appreciate them by doing it. Is not that I would get mad or anything.... and with that user, I'm just pointing he misgender his friend not once... but twice and at purpose.

Being a friend also means to be the most supportive hand you can have, and friends will defend you even if youre not there, to support you and tell you when you make mistakes, we use the word "friend" so easy here, but is not... when you get out as a gay/bi/trans or whatever... you find how many "friends" just "delete" you from their lifes... We all can agree there aren't so many friends in the real world, and we as friends need to understand how other people feel about what hurt each others... You can read how aggressive the first comment of that user was.... that was not nice from him.

(i would love better to continue this on PM is you wish to talk... )

Amaterasu

6 years, 7 months ago

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Actually, there are only two sexes. you're either male or you're female. Gender is where people can perceive themselves or others how ever they need to to fit into society.

Skunket

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Amaterasu

In resume and for what is really important you're right... Is just that phrase was used so much as a way to attack that it seems to fire quick

MalachiteTiger

6 years, 7 months ago

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You say you don't want to create rifts between people, but you're clearly trying to do exactly that.

You basically say you don't want division, but also want to shout "fuck your feelings" at people because they care about not being systematically discriminated against.

You say you don't want laws dealing with a tiny portion of the population, but do you object to laws specifically targeting that population for mistreatment? Isn't that the same thing only actively malicious instead of with good intent?

You know why LGBT people often want a "safe space" and "happy horseshit" or whatever you want to call it?
Because for a lot of people, it's a rare respite from being constantly harassed and treated like garbage.
And you don't like that idea, apparently.

BrokenPupper

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ MalachiteTiger

This is literally the entire reason he made an account here.

Keeran

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

"Human beings have two sexes, two genders"

And thus the war on language begins.

the reason gender= sex becasue the word "Sex" is considered to be dirty in the Western world becasue it is used in short for "Sexual intercourse". You can call it science that "there's two genders" but when you realize that even in the fields of science, gender and sex are separate, and that gender is actually a system that can either relate to the two sexes, (male or female) in many ways, or it can be separate. The three cases in the system of gender are Masculine (he), Feminine (She), and Neuter (it) and is interchangeable depending on culture.

Because of the discrepancy in the definition, however, Gender is described as biological sex (what you believe) or the identity of a person (what Saucy believes) but in truth, it is a system.

JinxMcKenzie

6 years, 7 months ago

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but saucy why do you give them attention XD
just ignore them

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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Because I'm upset and I hate them.

JinxMcKenzie

6 years, 7 months ago

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KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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You really should not HATE them. If you hate, then the ass holes who DO think your fucked up and should go die in a hole are getting EXACTLY what they want.

bare with me.. please.. Im a cis gendered Male trying to explain how the rest of the world sees this looking in, Im even using the term Cis here, wich I have gone on the reccord as hating having applied to me, im meeting you more then half way. please take this perspective into consideration.

And the ones who maybe just dont agree with everything your saying (case in point i've listened to a prominent non binery you tuber try to explain that both SEX AND GENDER are constructs and are ment to be fluid this is horse shit biological speaking.) Just end up getting pushed further away or alienated from your pier group when they might have become allies.

You NEED them to become allies.

Transgender and non binery people make up less then HALF a PERCENT of the population. you are the ultimate minority, just under fucking Leprechauns. If you put up a fense and tell everybody who doesnt 100% agree with the transgender narrative to GTFO and burn in hell you hater!

Your going to lose the culture battle.

Gays won it, they asked for simple tolerance, and acceptance came later, when society embraced it and realized you know what, gays are kinda awesome.

Transgender and non binary folk can have that two, but it doesn't start by demanding Pronouns or insisting that this Missing number pokemon chart is now a list of acceptable gender identities.

to a Cis gendered individual this looks like bat shit CRAZY to them. Telling them to "Get educated" does Nothing to alleviate this fact, now there diveing into the deep end of a MASSIVE MESS of Sociopolitical identify politics, much of wich is not yet supported by ANY hard science. this landscape is ever changing and maybe one day soon it will be, but to the "normies" this is only likely to alienate them more.

I do my best to try to understand or at the very LEAST be sympathetic twords people who suffer from gender Dysphoria, and feel there traped in the wrong body. Weather or not this is accurate, weather or not it's a mental thing, or a physical thing, weather or not it's something nature fucked up at birth or a mental illness or whatever way we end up classifying it in the end. I want people to just be happy.

But it's really REALLY hard to be an allie to a group whos most vocal members are contently flinging fire around, because they feel like there under attack from all sides.

MAYBE thats even true!

But you cant ACT like it. If you want things to change. Im not telling you to roll over and just suck it up, but you need to understand that the vast majority of the people who could end up wanting to help you or at the very least tolerate or accept you, need to be won over comfortably, Not by virtue signaling activists with nose rings and pink hair and "fuck Cis haters" signs, but by awesome people...who happen to be trans.

Your a person with a lot of exposure here on IB you have the power to make an impact, or to start to anyway.

this ios why you cant afford hatred. Getting made and sectioning yourself off from others means you lose by default.

Maybe you hate ME know I hope not, I dont have any problem with who you are or who you want to be, I mgiht be vemously apposed to identitarian polatics, but I still want people to be happy. I hope this helps you see that not everybody is either "with you" or "against you" the vast majority simply "Are" and you need the ones who "are".

If people are sending you threats or makeing you feel unsafe, report them take steps to be safe, and yes, those people are fucking ass holes. But you cant afford to lose your cool.

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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Its also helpful when comments like theirs show up and we can voice our opinions with our wallets to. Like say I want a commission. There are several artist I am considering. Well journals like these help thin the heard by showing 1. Will they do well making what I want? 2.Will they make what I what? ect.

JinxMcKenzie

6 years, 7 months ago

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what

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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TLDR version. Comments on boards like these point out the people we don't want to deal with.

JinxMcKenzie

6 years, 7 months ago

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why would you talk about them ? giving them more attention ?

mouse24

6 years, 7 months ago

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They show themselves to be unpleasant people by responding in an angry manner against us. Now we know who to avoid and not do business with.

Liv

6 years, 7 months ago

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Hi, another trans person here. Thank you.

Thank you for saying the thing I want to say all the time, but am too afraid

Saucy

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Liv

I'll admit I AM scared.
Last time I did something like that, I had to stop allowing comments because I couldn't stand it anymore, but I'm just... angry enough that for the moment it doesn't matter.

ScottySkunk

6 years, 7 months ago

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*offers a hug and support*

Liv

6 years, 7 months ago

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Though it sucks that you have been made so angry, if nothing else, just know that you made one person feel accepted. I'm just some random stranger on the internet, but you gave me a reason to keep going, keep fighting. Thank you, truly.

ZeloxQuo

6 years, 7 months ago

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Not sure who or what you are talking about here.

But hey, there is hate everywhere right now. Even a heck of a lot of false accusations and hate directed at people who just want to have conversations. Unfortunately.

There isn't all that much alt-right in furry. And even then, much of the alt-right isn't bad either.

Heck, there are a lot of people who hate white people so much that they associate with the extreme left. And that is also kinda scary.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ ZeloxQuo

most "alt righters' online anyway are just childish shit posters... the real "bad dudes" are in an extream minority and hopefully will remain so.

ZeloxQuo

6 years, 7 months ago

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Thankfully yes.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ ZeloxQuo

the "alt right" mostly ahs been co-opted into something far worse now.. so alot of them just say there "ethnic kekistanies" now instead of alt righters XD let the neo nazis have it fuck em lol

SebastianTheRoo

6 years, 7 months ago

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people need to be accepted for who they are!

PantyRanger

6 years, 7 months ago

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I'm not alt-right, I'm just all right.
. . . I'm sorry, I'll see myself out.

eeveefan

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ PantyRanger

bah dum tss!

kody1023

6 years, 7 months ago

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So. I know it won't help anything, it's not nuanced, and it probably won't do anything that'll affect the conversation positively or in a way that'll lead to mutual understanding, but... wanna watch a nazi get knocked the fuck out? I probably just seem like a dickhead who supports violence at this point, but hey, you're mad, I'm mad, let's all just enjoy the visceral pleasure of watching a bigot get clocked.

And before what few right or alt-right people who're on this post get mad, no, I don't want to arbitrarily label people I don't like 'nazis' and incite violence on them, but if you're wearing a swastika armband in a downtown area and calling people 'apes' while throwing bananas at them? I'm gonna be elated when you get what's coming.

ShawnGuku

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ kody1023

Violence on any side is counterproductive unless it's self-defense. Punching a guy out for his beliefs, no matter how horrible these beliefs might be, is assault and not in the spirit of free speech

Keeran

6 years, 7 months ago

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I heard the "nazi" threw a bananna at the black bystander, calling him a monkey and the white guy decked him for it.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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Punching nazis is always self-defense. It's really the only practical way to deal with them.

ShawnGuku

6 years, 7 months ago

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Assaulting anyone just on the basis of their personal beliefs and exercising their right to express those beliefs is never okay. I hate nazis, I hate their beliefs, and I think they deserve every bit of public ridicule they get and any retaliation that comes their way when they get violent. But I don't support throwing the first punch to silence someone's freedom of speech in any circumstance.

kody1023

6 years, 7 months ago

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They were literally throwing bananas at black people and calling them apes. I believe in free speech too, but just because you're allowed to say what you want, doesn't excuse you from being punished when you are an asshole. I know that, and I'm fucking Canadian.

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ kody1023

I really dont support violance as a responce to anybody doing anything short of violence used in defence of your own personal being AGAINST physical violance directed at you.

that being said if your walking around dressed like hitler and tossing shit at people... Well man I cant fucking BLAME people for wanting to kick the shit out of you lol.

ShawnGuku

6 years, 7 months ago

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Extremism is always bad, left or right.

Maou

6 years, 7 months ago

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wrong

Athendae

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Maou

Extremism is bad, period, regardless of the side it's on.

DragonPen

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Athendae

Damn skippy.

ShawnGuku

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ Maou

How so?

ZeloxQuo

6 years, 7 months ago

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I would add, not just left or right, but almost any ideological view as well.

Economic forms of governance isn't the only form of extremism that is bad. Religious and ideological extremism is also bad. It can, and does, lead to many horrible things indeed.

ShawnGuku

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ ZeloxQuo

Yeah, extremism is the real problem. Having the mindset that you're right and everyone who disagrees is a bad person always goes bad.

misterlonelyfox

6 years, 7 months ago

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Truer words have not been posted in this comment string.

skyboxmonster

6 years, 7 months ago

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Can I say that I dont like the LOCAL trans people? as I have met them in person and each one ive met turned out to be a Asshole or tried to have unwanted sex with me. or showing me adult pictures on their phone AT WORK.

Floofy

6 years, 7 months ago

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*Hugs*

babysierra

6 years, 7 months ago

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I support trans. I think trans are wonderful people too and that the alt-right are not very nice group. why is it that the bad people mostly rules this world of our? if people had learn to get along better then none of this stupid hate would be needed.

eeveefan

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ babysierra

as my comment stated idk what trans people are but it doesnt stop me from bein friends with them. idk if i ever encountered a trans cause i honestly cant tell lol. ill be friends with anyome regardless of gender.

Blueprince89

6 years, 7 months ago

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gosh, this alt-right is the stuff of nightmares...

question: is New Zealand safe from those?

AlexanderValentine

6 years, 7 months ago

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I try to take a neutral approach to mostly everything, especially towards things I don't know completely. Alt-political spectrums included... Although I doubt there's an alt-centralist group.

With the alt right/left white supreme-nazism/psuedo-facism groupings, the madness... I'm honestly just wondering when it's going to go from riots and protests to full out gunfire in the streets from the alt-hate groups. When that day comes, I'll literally take my chances in mexico instead of sticking around in the US.

HaruTotetsu

6 years, 7 months ago

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I think the biggest issue is actually silencing these people. You need to let a moron speak so you can show everyone how much of a moron they are.If they have ANY sort of valid point, then everyone can address the issue and resolve what's causing them to act in such a way and move on. Because when you seek to silence these people, all you're doing is making them have the ability to paint themselves as the victims of malicious censorship for speaking "the truth" as they put it.

eeveefan

6 years, 7 months ago

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i honestly dont care about gender, idk what a transgender is or this alt-right side thing. to me you can be male, female, herm, girly guys, manly women it doesnt matter to me it wont stop me from being friends with someone and it wont make me like a person any less. ive seen alot of posts on splatoon about transgenders and them wanting others to know about them and support them for being who they are and what i have to say to that is.... go ahead and be yourselves! your you and i cant change that. regardless of your gender id still love to be friends with you. :)
i hope this doesnt sound to mean or anything, this is just how i think.

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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Saucy, I'd love to offer some words of advice, comfort, and wisdom in this matter. But unfortunately I can't do that, because I have nothing to offer up. I spent the majority of my afternoon shift at work contemplating exactly what I'd like to say, only to realize that there's not much for me to really say, because I'm filled with just as much hate as you are right now.

I might even have more hatred going on than yourself right now, because I hate both the right and the left at the same time! I hate them both equally, just for differing reasons. There are certain policies on each side that I can ultimately agree with to some extent, but overall both parties are filled with nothing but assholes, hypocrites, and blinding hatred.

SherlyKaru

6 years, 7 months ago

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Ah, so that's why your character was genderless, cool ^^
Here there's no alt-right (I live in Mexico) but they're already so dense here to begin with anyways. Either way i still like you ^^

catgirlsister

6 years, 7 months ago

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To Saucy: Well said. Those scumbags have made a good chunk of the internet unbearable and harassed innocent ppl to no end, so I'm not exactly eager to "give them a chance" or anything like that. Don't forget that there's lots of friends here and elsewhere that support and agree with you!

To the friendly peeps in here that support us but still wanna stay on the fence: if you do support free speech, keep in mind it goes both ways, and keep in mind that hate speech shouldn't be tolerated. Telling trans ppl to just let the alt-right be and let them spout violent rhetoric while shunning us for daring to call them out on their nonsense is exactly what they want. They rely on manipulating scared/confused folks who blame "both sides" and denounce "all violence" to get away with it.

Something else to keep in mind is that "alt-right" doesn't refer to the opposite of the "alt-left" (I've yet to meet or even see anyone who calls themselves part of that). Rather, the alt-right is a gross extension of the right that has been allowed to grow on the sleaziest corners of the internet. The left's worst extensions haven't grown anywhere near that much, and the alt-right has already stabbed people, led torch-lit hate rallies, and run over dozens of protesters this year alone. The way to stop that from getting worse isn't by wagging fingers and saying "violence is bad." It's by preventing them from organizing further and making things even worse. That's why it's important to not give them the benefit of the doubt, and that's why it's important to support trans folks.

At the very least, I hope people understand why a lot of us are so upset right now.

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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All good points. However there are a few points of my own that I would like to bring up.

lewdspecter wrote:

To the friendly peeps in here that support us but still wanna stay on the fence: if you do support free speech, keep in mind it goes both ways, and keep in mind that hate speech shouldn't be tolerated. Telling trans ppl to just let the alt-right be and let them spout violent rhetoric while shunning us for daring to call them out on their nonsense is exactly what they want. They rely on manipulating scared/confused folks who blame "both sides" and denounce "all violence" to get away with it.

The thing about hate speech, is that it's largely determined by those who hold political authority at the given time. When Obama was in office, there was a lot of push back to anyone who disagreed with him and his policies, and efforts to label disagreement and dissent as being due to racism or outright hatred. Rather than address the merits of his policies, and whether or not there was good reason to be opposed to them, dissenting opinions were silenced under the threat of being labeled as racism simply because he was black.

The problem with hate speech, is that it's so easy for those in power to label things they don't like as being hate speech, even if it's not hateful. Rather than debate the merits of the message, they try and shut down the message completely, and stop it from being discussed. It's a disgusting, weak-willed effort to prevent honest debate, because they can't defend their own positions in an intellectual manner.

Something else to keep in mind is that "alt-right" doesn't refer to the opposite of the "alt-left" (I've yet to meet or even see anyone who calls themselves part of that). Rather, the alt-right is a gross extension of the right that has been allowed to grow on the sleaziest corners of the internet. The left's worst extensions haven't grown anywhere near that much, and the alt-right has already stabbed people, led torch-lit hate rallies, and run over dozens of protesters this year alone. The way to stop that from getting worse isn't by wagging fingers and saying "violence is bad." It's by preventing them from organizing further and making things even worse. That's why it's important to not give them the benefit of the doubt, and that's why it's important to support trans folks.

There's a slight problem with the above. First, there is an alt-left, and it's the Antifa organization. Depending on how one looks at the available data, Black Lives Matter may also qualify as also being alt-left. Both groups don't shy away from using violence against others, often for the weakest of reasoning. Countless examples of assault with a deadly weapon, aggravated assault, attempted murder, destruction of public and private property, assault of a police officer, ready use of molotov cocktails, etc. Simply because they haven't actually killed anyone yet, doesn't change the fact that they consider violence against others to be a legitimate and acceptable tactic for addressing differing opinions.

Antifa was actually classified as a domestic terrorist organization by the Obama administration, but that detail was never released publicly until after he left office.

The issue with the torches, I can't really comment on. A lot of people are claiming the torches were to drive away mosquitoes at night and were those citronella tiki torch deals. As bad as the mosquitoes have been around this particular part of the country, I could actually believe that, so I'll cut them some slack there.

catgirlsister

6 years, 7 months ago

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I don't wanna dignify this with an actual response, so I'll just use the cliff notes.
- There's no "honest debate" to be made about whether ethnic cleansing is okay.
- There's no such thing as the "alt-left," as much as alt-righters want to make it a thing.
- BLM fights police brutality against black people. Anti-fascism fights fascism. This isn't hard.
- Don't compare thrown punches and broken windows to the black people killed by policemen or the dozens run over last month. Human lives are worth more than that.
- The alt-right relies on schmucks that blame both sides and excuse their behavior while wagging fingers at everyone that opposes them. Keep that in mind next time you try to defend their rotten behavior over "honest debate."
- Trans people and nonbinary people are valid. (I just felt like adding this.)

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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"	lewdspecter wrote:
	I don't wanna dignify this with an actual response, so I'll just use the cliff notes. - There's no "honest debate" to be made about whether ethnic cleansing is okay.

No, but letting people go on about it, rather than trying to silence them, shows the public at large just how damn foolish the notion is. They'll literally hang themselves with their own words if you don't interrupt them.

"	- There's no such thing as the "alt-left," as much as alt-righters want to make it a thing.

Even though the Obama administration classified Antifa as being a terrorist organization?

"	- BLM fights police brutality against black people. Anti-fascism fights fascism. This isn't hard.

How does BLM fight police brutality by burning their own neighborhoods down?

"	- Don't compare thrown punches and broken windows to the black people killed by policemen or the dozens run over last month. Human lives are worth more than that.

Not punches. We're talking beating people with clubs, throwing bricks at them, making use of improvised flame throwers, etc. As for the destruction of property, I'm talking about when cars and buildings are set on fire.

"	- The alt-right relies on schmucks that blame both sides and excuse their behavior while wagging fingers at everyone that opposes them. Keep that in mind next time you try to defend their rotten behavior over "honest debate."

I'm not defending anyone, I hate both sides of the matter. I'd rather stand off to the sidelines and talk with Saucy while both groups turn each other into ground round, but that's sadly not a viable option.

"	- Trans people and nonbinary people are valid. (I just felt like adding this.)

And I never said otherwise. I'm nonstandard, BTW.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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The issue with the torches, I can't really comment on. A lot of people are claiming the torches were to drive away mosquitoes at night and were those citronella tiki torch deals. As bad as the mosquitoes have been around this particular part of the country, I could actually believe that, so I'll cut them some slack there.

Could you, uh, try to be a little less credulous? This is the most transparent, stupid lie. They know what they look like and they know what they're doing and nobody uses tiki torches this way, and you really don't even need to argue that far because the torches are in the context of all the other awful shit they're saying and doing. If you can't hear that excuse and instantly recognize it as the weakest bullshit, you're reeeeally not equipped to adequately evaluate the ethics of something like antifa.

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

So when your neighbors have a block party/barbecue going on, and they've got out the citronella torches and candles to ward off mosquito swarms, what exactly should be assumed?

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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I know I'm wasting my time here because you are obviously not approaching this discussion in anything like good faith, but a block party barbecue is not the same thing as a right wing rally where people are waving racist symbols and hitting leftists with cars.

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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I can accept that. I'll admit that I don't know all of the details surrounding everything. Trying to separate truth from fiction in the news media is an arduous task to undertake.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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...why did you let them bait you into an alt-right/alt-left dichotomy of discussion? It's an obvious red herring.

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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I more or less have two things going for me. I'm articulate, and I stay calm better than most. My intelligence is only average, however. I might notice certain things more readily that others don't under the same circumstances, but I'm just as prone to errors in judgement as anyone else.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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Your arrogance will be the death of you.

SentinelX

6 years, 7 months ago

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That, or a drunk driver. Whichever one catches up to me first.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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It's the obvious red herring that every both-sides-are-bad wanker on this page is already jumping onto unprompted.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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It's just this guy, tbh.

Is it really an alien concept to you that maybe extremists are bad for your health no matter which side of the political spectrum they're on?

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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No, that was pretty much my perspective for most of my life. I was definitely in that somewhere-in-the-middle camp for many years around university. I tried to be culturally relativist and understanding that different political perspectives come from different values and ethical systems. I still think that, basically, but knowing more about the epistemology and outcomes of certain ideas makes it hard to keep treating them as valid. Maybe centrism was my excuse to stay in a bubble, not pay attention, avoid the burden of having to do my own research or exercise real judgment. It's a lot easier and a lot less frustrating to hide behind a basic principle like "violence is bad".

I don't like political/ideological violence - I'm not one of those people giggling at videos of someone getting punched - but this is just where we are as a culture now. I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 6 months ago

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You're assuming that centrism is borne out of ignorance. This is a pretty dangerous assumption to make.

jellymouse

6 years, 7 months ago

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I'd rather not associate with either alt. They're both just as horrible.
That said, if I had to pick, the alt right seems genuinely smaller right now, so I'd probably associate with them to balance it out.

Skunket

6 years, 7 months ago

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I totally would recommend you to read >this< before saying that...

and is good that alt-right is small... Actually they dont even should exist at all.... and Im not the only one saying this....

Also I recommend you to see this video, cause... if you really choice that side... look what the creator of Rick and Morty is saying about them: >video<

bencoon

6 years, 7 months ago

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What.. are you talking about? Both alts? Alt-right are self-identifying rebranded white supremacists. There is no other alt.

If you're talking about the fictional 'alt left', that was made up by the same people to try to label anybody who disagreed with them as an attempt to force a 'both sides are equally bad' false narrative. There is no actual 'alt left'.

jellymouse

6 years, 7 months ago

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No, there are actually people who go around subjugating those that don't blindly follow the left to the greatest extreme. It's not made up, it does happen, and it's just as bad as the alt right.
Better yet, it's largely ignored, despite having more support, which makes it far more dangerous than a bunch of racist assholes jerking off to themselves somewhere. Even more dangerous, there's more and more people slowly migrating to extremes on the left side of things, doing silly things like claiming that not supporting censorship is the same as being a nazi, or that having different views than a particular group is bigotry.
It's been getting well out of hand since around 2010, and only seems to be set to escalate.into civil war at this rate.

bencoon

6 years, 7 months ago

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Saying mean things on the internet and making people feel bad about being assholes is hardly 'subjugation'. And I've seen the claims of suppressing free speech and censorship. More often than not, what is claimed as 'censorship' is people daring to have the gall to actually argue or even fight back. The nerve of them! And even worse are private forums deciding that they don't want to be a platform for hate speech! The sheer cheek! Such terribly violent positions like 'Please stop killing us' and 'I'm a person too.'

It's interesting too that 'black people are inherently inferior' and 'gays are child molesters and don't deserve basic civil rights' is dismissed as simply 'a difference of opinion'. Yes, that's what that phrase has become a dog whistle for, and I'm pretty sure I can anticipate exactly how you'll react to me calling that out.

But really, is this the kind of people you want to associate with? Because unlike the 'alt left', which is nothing more than a pejorative for 'people I don't like', the 'alt right' is an actual group of people with some pretty abhorrent goals.

jellymouse

6 years, 7 months ago

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When I say censorship, I mean things like false DMCA, mass libel, ect. This stuff is all over the place lately.
Ignorance to a group does not make the group disappear. In fact, the alt left is demonstrably not only there, but currently acting openly in some cases under the branding of anti-fascist. There are also various figures abusing the shield of women's rights and gay rights to push their own personal agendas/plays for power, and turn that into a strong anti-expression agenda.(See: Tropes vs Women in Videogames, the entire GamerGate scandal) among other things.

Denying the existence of this problem serves to further empower these extremists who's goals are to hijack legitimate causes for personal gain. The only way to move forward to a better society is open discussion of all viewpoints, no matter how 'illegitimate' in your eyes, as the only way people will ever come to a peaceful understanding is through perspective. "Fighting the power" will only breed a new power, and it will turn on you the moment you're no longer convenient for it's ends.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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Some gamergater followed me on twitter once. I saw a lot of that hashtag in his feed, but none of it had anything to do with ethics, games, or journalism. It was pretty much just about how women need to shut up. I don't know what you think that whole mess was about, but it wasn't any of those things and it sure wasn't "free speech".

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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Gamergate has had a lot of issues, a lot that would make what you're talking about pretty petty in comparison.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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It was a small illustrative example from personal experience, yes.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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The bigger problem is that gamers themselves are responsible for how bad the culture around selling and hyping games is their own fault because they themselves bought and enabled such shitty practices. Showing a lack of self-responsibility is a clear sign of a movement that is going nowhere.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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I think the bigger problem with Gamergate is it was a thin veneer of disingenuous principle masking a mostly-misogynistic backlash against a "PC culture" that was calling for changes to make games less alienating to non-white non-manbabies, but okay.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 6 months ago

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I've seen far more misandry being slung at gamer culture from bottom-of-the-barrel yellow journalists.

jellymouse

6 years, 7 months ago

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A lot of the wrong people hijacked gamergate, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was intentional. The media needed something to help demonize the whole shebang, and sexism was a hot topic at the time, so it got thrown in as a scapegoat.
What the whole thing actually was about, when you got past the bickering extremist middle grounds hijacking either side of the movement to cause drama and feed off it with sensationalist clickbait garbage, was about standards for journalistic integrity in the videogame industry, and it actually had a very large positive impact outside of those trashy clickbait sites that took advantage of it.
If you watch many youtube content creators, even the larger ones like DigitalFoundry, you'll note that in many cases they now disclose fully when they have a contract to promote a product, and many of them will even disclose when they have a prior interest in the product that may influence their views, usually right at the start. That's what GamerGate was about, and is still about.
Many of the moderate game journalists got together with the more moderate people speaking against the common unethical practices of game journalism, and talked it out in a calm and orderly fashion, and look, we have real progress! Now if only people could do that in other venues, instead of lumping everyone together as "good" or "bad" and screaming about nazis or commies or whatever.

worldf0x

6 years, 7 months ago

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Why can't people just let people be people? Why do assholes feel the need to stick their nose where it doesn't belong? Oh, right, because they're assholes.

Fuck the alt-right.
Fuck Nazis.
Fuck racists.
Fuck Transphobes.
And fuck anyone who says, "both sides are bad." This isn't Poop vs. Shit. This is Nazis vs. Not Nazis. One side is clearly, unequivocally worse.

misterlonelyfox

6 years, 7 months ago

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"	worldf0x wrote:
	And fuck anyone who says, "both sides are bad." This isn't Poop vs. Shit. This is Nazis vs. Not Nazis. One side is clearly, unequivocally worse.

But it's not "Nazis vs not Nazis". If you have to use the Nazi metaphor then it is "Nazis vs. Commies". The extremes on both sides display awful behavior and simply other anyone that voices opposition to their ideologies and make demands of a public that owes them nothing other than their rights under law.

worldf0x

6 years, 7 months ago

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It isn't a metaphor.  It is actual nazis.  Or the KKK, who are just as bad. Or white supremicists, who are basically nazis.

And the extremes on the nazi side drove a car into a crowd of people.  I don't know what kind of delusions you're under, but last I heard no "alt-left" protester has run a car into a crowd.

Nazis preach genocide.  Left wing people preach, "hey, let's  not kill a bunch of people just because they're different than us."

So, again, fuck nazis.  Fuck you for trying to get people to think nazis are okay.  Fuck you for equating ANYONE that isn't a nazi to be on the same level as a nazi.  Fuck you even harder for trying to say that the people who are protesting nazis are just as bad as nazis.  You naive, ignorant fuck.

sonicrainboom

6 years, 7 months ago

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The alt-left has attacked people and animals and destroyed a shit ton of property, people have almost died, the number of attacks are higher on their side, and the people attacked where not all nazi, not even most of them.
Also they fly commie flags and communism has killed more people then the nazi. They act more like nazi then the people that talk like nazi.

worldf0x

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ sonicrainboom

You're lumping a wide range of various countries together to inflate the kill count, where as Nazis killed millions all on their own.  Also you're trying to justify nazi killings by saying, "WULL, THEY DID IT TO."  So fuck you for that. Really.  For serious.  Someone drove into a crowd of people with intent to kill as many as they could.  And you're trying to say that some attacks are just as bad. Based on your standpoint, I can only assume that you're either A) twelve and don't actually know what you're saying, or B) actually a nazi, KKK member, or other flavor of the worst kind of scumfuck humanity has known.  I would like to believe that you're just A, but heaven help us I think you might be both.

I mean, as long as we're going back and saying, "WELL THEY DID IT TO," let's take a look at the KKK's long history of lynchings, beatings, and outright murders.  Let's go ahead and lump in all the hate crimes committed by every racist, homophobe, and chauvinist out there while we're at it.  FUCK!  We might as well bring America's Manifest Destiny thing and the many massacres of the native Americans, 'cause that's the same thing, right?  As long as we're bringing guests in here, why don't you go ahead and google Pol Pot and Mussolini.

As for the 'alt-left' acting more like nazis than actual real right here right now nazis, ARE YOU FUCKING DENSE?  Nazis advocate motherfucking genocide.  Genocide meaning the complete mass-murder of a people.  So saying, "Alt left is more nazi than nazis," is like saying, "I don't actually know what nazis are and also I'm twelve and also racist and also poop my pants."  You fucking dunce.

sonicrainboom

6 years, 7 months ago

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Being anti nazi doesn't automatically make you a good guy, and I don't need to lump a bunch of countries together, just Russia alone has more kills then Germany.
The nazi in america are just inbred hicks with too much time on their hands, and the one that drove into the crowd may have been under attack(waiting for proof), now go look up the brown shirts and compare their behavior to antifa, riots/attacks/death threats/demands for government over throw. Their ideas are just as harmful as the nazi, and they have more numbers, they are the bigger threat to america.

worldf0x

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ sonicrainboom

It makes you better than an nazi sympathizer, which is what you're doing right now.  You are literally sympathizing with nazis.

And

There's no proof to wait for, because he wasn't under attack.  You can watch the video.  He slowly creeps down the street, then revs it into the crowd.  No one was near the car.  You can see it with your own eyes.  Your own dumb, nazi-sympathizing eyes.

Also Antifa stands for Anti-fascist.

"Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce"
"Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict"
At their very core, Nazis (fascists) are against American values.  Their mere existence a threat to America.

sonicrainboom

6 years, 7 months ago

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It doesn't matter what the definition of antifa is, it doesn't fucking matter when what they are doing IS THE SAME FUCKING THING AS THE EARLY NAZI! YOU ARE THE SYMPATHIZER YOU'RE JUST TO DUMB TO REALIZE IT!
If he wasn't under attack then yes, throw his ass in jail, along with all the violent antifa members so civilized people can get SOME FUCKING PEACE AND QUEIT!!!
(Hell even if he was he pulled forward not back so he's going to jail regardless)

misterlonelyfox

6 years, 7 months ago

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Remember an important axiom, only evil deals in absolutes.

IronIvy

6 years, 7 months ago

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I think "Fuck all nazis" is a relatively safe not-evil absolute, ya?

KevinSnowpaw

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ IronIvy

Schindler was a Nazi =p Just tossing that out there....

how meny jews lives did he save again? I dont remember but enough that they rected a munument to him in Isreal.

Absolutes are bad mkay!

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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"Moderation in all things, including moderation". Some things actually are absolute.

misterlonelyfox

6 years, 7 months ago

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Only in binary and the Kelvin temperature range.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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Yes, very cute.

You know, if you put your mind to it you could probably think of things that are more evil than "thinking in absolutes", like - oh, I don't know, advocating genocide? - and consider whether that's really the people you want to defend or the hill you want to die on.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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Try attempting to kill others with a bike lock.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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The heat death of the universe, and human stupidity.

AntiAlias

6 years, 7 months ago

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Is being Trans or Supporting Trans people a Political Statement now adays?
I thought Trans People were human beings, not Social Figureheads or Ideologies.

This Alt Left & Right shit just.....I can't even...
We Preach be good to eachother...but we are to busy fighting a Social War, Dividing and Declaring hate on peoples Viewpoints that we can't to come together and find a Peaceful middle ground.

worldf0x

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ AntiAlias

We can't find a peaceful middle-ground, because some people have the standpoint of, "Everyone that isn't a straight white should die." How do you find a middle ground with that?

AntiAlias

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

And that mindset only makes it harder.
Don't fight Violence with Violence
Punching a Nazi, or Physically Attacking somebody who doesn't agree with you doesn't help or solve a dam thing.

Besides, the only people who legit think that are a Dying Breed, acceptance couldn't be bigger in todays world. But to everything that exists, there is an Opposite. You will never get a Perfect world

worldf0x

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ AntiAlias

Did I ever once say punch a nazi?
No.
So back THAT shit up right there.

Also, apparently enough of that Dying Breed electing Trump, so until they're fully dead, we must fight against them and their ideal

AntiAlias

6 years, 7 months ago

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I never said that you did, Grow Up man. Don't be so Defensive over nothing.

And...lol. "Nazi's" aren't the only people that elected Trump. Racists; (Or whatever people think defines one now adays) aren't the only people that elected Trump.
Also...you do know you literally just Advocated for Violence right?...so you don't support a Peaceful and worthwhile solution.
Im not mad...Im just VERY disappointed.

worldf0x

6 years, 7 months ago

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@ AntiAlias

Are you permanently on the High Road? Or are you just high? No one gives a shit about you or your disappointment.

AntiAlias

6 years, 7 months ago

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Don't Need it, didn't ask for it.

Just stating my stance. There is no High Road.

Look for Peace Bro

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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There are two types of people in this world, people who work to make the world a better place for everyone, and idealists.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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I have a theory that 'the alt-right' does not even exist. Sit of a bunch of differently minded people down in a room and charge them to come up with a bare bones definition of it, and I promise you every time it will end in screeching.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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Dude, "alt-right" isn't some slur leftists made up. Richard Spencer coined the term to describe himself and his ethnonationalist movement. It is a term of self-identity, a badge to wear with pride and a banner to march and sieg heil under.

When people say there is no "alt-left", that's the difference they're talking about - nobody is trying to claim or reclaim that label. It's just used to paint antifa with the false equivalence brush.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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I never actually said it was a slur leftists made up. I said there was no real, agreed upon definition of the term. Excuse me if I am misusing this, but I believe 'alt-right' has become a floating abstraction. What I mean by this, is that even if it was created with a specific group of people in mind, and embodied by some very specific beliefs, those days are passed. Too many people either identify with the term and then have conflicting beliefs (particularly on the side of 'nuances,' a concept the mass seems incapable of fathoming, thus making the term incomprehensible in the general sense), or on the side by those who seek to discredit those who identify under it (namely by picking a minor aspect of the belief, and then using rhetorical tricks to inflate it to a majority--I.E. the association and subsequent equalization of Nazism with everything that relates to the things that relate to the things that relate to the things...ect. concerning Nazism).

My claim is that the term 'alt-right' exists and is immensely influential, but realistically, it no longer represents anything even remotely concrete. Too many people have a different idea of what it means, so when you try to pinpoint an exact meaning, you realize it either represents countless things, thus leaving it virtually meaningless unless someone attempts to conflate or equalize the morality of all those minor things via association (as described in the parenthetical Nazism explanation) to create a grander movement/entity/enemy. And if not that, it essentially represents nothing exactly, thus tossing its actual existence as a pointer (a word that represents, rather than the representative) into question. To me, the 'alt-right' either does not really exist as any one, specific thing, and the term is just a giant spinning saw blade that many varying groups of people (or, if you'd rather it put in more simple, dualistic, or 'partisan' terms, the left AND the right) are powering, all with the this strange idea it can be harassed as a political tool, without realizing it's only slicing up everybody, bad and good.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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I have a theory that a sandwich isn't a thing that exists because nobody can agree on a definition. Is this furry or is it just anthropomorphic animals? This kind of semantic dickering is a meaningless garden path. We don't need to pin down an ultra-precise exclusionary definition to identify broad patterns or criticize the movement. Every person is an individual with their own take on it, but they're still consciously aligning themselves with something abhorrent and I don't exactly owe them benefit of doubt, let alone individual scrutiny.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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I disagree. I feel like knowing what you're judging is an indispensable preliminary step to the actual judging. The claim that it is not strikes me as nothing short of insane and horrifying. I have little interest in playing that sort of game.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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What I'm saying is it's an umbrella term with a lot of different far-right groups under it. They might not all agree on which minorities they hate or whether they want them deported or executed or incarcerated or just quietly shunted out of power and health care and the public eye by nice-sounding policy, but those *~nuances~* are not exactly important to me.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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I feel the nuances matter because 'alt-right' is not the left's term, or at least, that's what you claimed. That means the left shouldn't get to define what it means, right? The implication of this is that the alt-right embodies more than this alleged 'hate of minorities' (which doesn't even make complete sense, since the alt-right is politically and culturally a minority group....), since plenty of people who don't 'hate minorities' may and do identify under it. The term is wider than what a good part of the left claims. It's just because they gravitate around hot button issues like multiculturalism and borders which often attract fascists and national socialists that the association has been made.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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They actually do exist, but despite them checking 6 out of 7 of the items that would make an organization fascist, they're pretty much an impotent joke from the start rather than a threat like people are hyping them up to be. A memetic joke piece, so to speak.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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Edited 6 years, 7 months ago by Owner

My issue is with this elusive 'they' you speak of. Who exactly is 'they?' Milo Yiannopollus either was or is alt-right, but he was clearly, if we are to believe what he said of his own beliefs and intentions as honest (which clearly we must), not a Neo-Nazi. Yet the term is equalized with Neo-Nazism. What confuses me most about this entire 'alt-right' argument is that very obvious conflicts in logic like this are not only seldom resolved, but are almost never addressed, and are seemingly unrecognized!

Consequently, what Milo said about the alt-right being more of a 'movement' and associating it more with a need for adventure and a desire to stand oppositionally to the crowd than anything else is further affirmed every time these issue go unaddressed. Honestly, the term strikes me as some demented call to arms for both sides of the standard political dichotomy to wage war and vent frustrations, and is really nobody's ally except those playing the 'alt-right' game.

And to anybody who might argue that the 'alt-right' is not a 'game' and the stakes are entirely real, I would argue that what you're referring to long proceeds the alt-right, and is entirely a dominant factor. In other words, the alt-right is a misnomer crossed with an abstraction which takes places within this greater, philosophical, ideological, political struggle. It's just a blue puzzle piece in a 100,000 piece puzzle of the ocean.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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"	if we are to believe what he said of his own beliefs and intentions as honest (which clearly we must)

Nnnnnno, we actually do not have to take everyone at their word. We can look at what someone says and does in the context of everything else they say and do and reach a conclusion about whether they're approaching a discussion in good faith. When someone is a self-professed "provocateur", we don't have to assume they're adding anything of substance to a conversation. They've already laid out their agenda.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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I never actually said we had to take everybody at face value. It's more that there is no reason not to believe Milo as I see it (or at least take his words seriously). Just because he doesn't conduct himself the way you'd like (the way you are self-righteously convinced is 'good faith') does not provide some strange divine justification to utterly disregard him.

Kind of an ironic argument to make immediately after mentioning Fascism. Your logic seems reminiscent of a cult of personality, or at the very least, of a stringent cultural standard that must be obeyed at threat--I.E. Fascism lol

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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I hate to break it to you, but sometimes - often! - people on the internet will just spout dishonest or disingenuous bullshit trying to make a point or "win" an argument. I'm not clutching my pearls because he's saying naughty words and being mean here. I'm talking about how his explicitly stated goal is to provoke a particular reaction. The truth value of his statements and the sincerity of his arguments are secondary to that goal, if they're considered at all. This isn't specifically an alt-right thing; it's just this trap that's all over discourse wherever you look.

I'm curious what "personality" you think I'm in a cult of. I haven't really named anyone. Also, like, maybe you should look up what fascism is? It's authoritarian nationalism. I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't think I've said anything about it here.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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Just a thought, but do you consider that it's possible that those dishonest people are those on your side as well?

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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They definitely are. It's a frustrating unavoidable reality of discourse in general and I don't enjoy wading into it.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 6 months ago

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Nobody does, but when a good person does what they gotta do, it's not about what they want.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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You seem to be assuming that Milo is saying things solely to garnish a reaction. This is a presumption. I believe he was referring to how he said the things he said. When he referred to specific content, it was a matter of being bold and saying buzzwords like 'fag,' in a politically correct era. He was fiddling with the cobra of reactionary-ism. 'You' taunt the other side to invoke their actions, and their actions spark both more notoriety/fame for you, the 'provocateur,' as you called him, and they cause your own movement to grow (particularly in a way that revolves around you). This is a matter of style, not substance.

As for the Fascism comment, I was saying that your dismissal of his arguments based entirely on his methods of achieving notice and popularity were logically insufficient, and seemed reminiscent of Fascist method. I.E. aligning a way of acting with the 'right' way.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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I can look past the slurs and wade into the weeds of his individual statements and pick them apart looking for whatever nuggets of truth and valid argument might be there, sure. I can also dismiss him outright because I've already seen enough of his bullshit to know spouting bullshit is his brand. He's had his chance and found his audience and I don't owe him an ear at this point.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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>Taking Kilo Wagner seriously.
> 2016

Seriously, the guy is an intellectual coward, a fraud and an opportunist. You should not be taking anything he says seriously. I can tell you for certain that Mike Cernovich and Google Alaska are two such members, you can work out the rest from there.

YaBoiMeowff

6 years, 7 months ago

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It's 2017 lol

Also I take his facts and claimed studies with a grain of salt. The conceptual stuff I find fascinating, though. It is ultra-contrarian, out of the box style thinking, regardless of how it stands up morally.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 6 months ago

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This is also ruined by the fact that he is an opportunistic shill who moves from political stance to political stance as soon as it becomes financially profitable to do so.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 6 months ago

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I'll just say this, go ask Cernovich or Richard Spencer. You can pretend that the label doesn't exist all you want, but this is a movement founded and coined by their leaders. This is just petty pedantism, and forcing a grey argument into either the black and white box. This is me saying that while it's inaccurate to call the alt-right a neo-nazi organization, it wouldn't be off base to suggest that there are degrees of fascism associated with them. In other words, I wouldn't consider them the enemy since the one saving grace they have is that they claim to support free speech, but it would take a lot more for me to consider one of them a friend of mine.

Mongosling

6 years, 7 months ago

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Thin edge of the wedge. It's easier to install fascist institutions if you normalize the concepts first. Get everyone comfy with your concentration camps by dressing them up in goofy frog memes. Making it all friendly and approachable is an explicit goal.

LadyFuzztail

6 years, 7 months ago

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