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KichigaiKitsune

Victim stabs bully 11 times, is let off.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.337267-...

This is interesting in and of itself, but it's the comments that make me want to write about it.
Let's get down and dirty with it.

First off, it's always saddening to see something like this. I can't help but feel a little sympathy for the deceased teenager and his family. This is why I strongly advise that youths (and others) carry OC spray, rather than knives - though some places treat non-lethal, effective pepper-spray like firearms and make it difficult for youths to possess it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking this doesn't sadden me. But I've been in a similar position, and I don't blame him at all for reacting as he did.

There has been a few stupid comments, so let's get a few things straight.

First of all, stabbing someone eleven times or more is not "excessive." You see this same thing whenever cops fire in self-defense: "but they fired ten times! That's excessive!"
No, it isn't. In all forms of self-defense, either with a gun, knife or fists, you are supposed to keep going until the threat is definitely eliminated. Knives aren't liable, even with a stab to the heart, to bring down an assailant for several seconds, during which you should be striking again.

Ditto for the cops with their guns. People see movies where bad guys drop after a single bullet to the chest. That doesn't actually happen - two to three shots is a minimum, and takes time for the damage to kick in. I know this is a disturbing, violent thing that probably makes a lot of people recoil, but: when we're talking about using deadly force to defend yourself, you don't stop swinging until they stop moving. As someone said in the forum post: "it doesn't take long to stab eleven times. He probably stopped once he realized he wasn't being attacked any more."

Secondly, it's easy to say this was an over-reaction, etc. Unfortunately, that mindset seems to be derived from believing that teenagers don't have real problems. They do. This was a real, serious assault, not somehow diminished because it was just kids involved. If I, as an adult, found myself assaulted by a "bully" in this way when I got off the bus, I would have responded in the same way - albeit I have nonlethal options thanks to my state being sane enough to allow OC spray.
Seriously, forget the fact that they're "just kids." Look at the facts.

Forget this nonsense, forget: "oh, there's no way this was justified, they're just kids!"

This was a brutal assault on a non-violent, smaller person who simply wanted to get away, and he responded with legally justified force. Perhaps it's true that this should never have gone so far - but the fact that it did, that blame doesn't rest on the one who defended himself. Forget the fact they're "kids."

Thirdly, the "victim's" family's complaining is just making no sense. Again with the implicit belief that youngsters are phenomenally stupid, they claim that “[The judge's] decision is not setting a good example for children or adults" and “[The judge] is showing those kids it’s OK to get away with murder.”

No, it's setting a perfect example for everyone. Threaten someone's life or well-being, and that person can react to stop you. It's encouraging to see such sensible self-defense laws in Florida.
No, it's "showing kids" that it's okay to defend yourself, something a lot of bullying victims don't realize.

Besides which, this is the same sort of nonsense as the daft woman in Texas said after the probably suicide by cop of a 15-year-old with a BB gun recently ("When kids see things like this, they copy."): no, children don't blindly copy these things. How many teens and children are up-to-date with court precedents and so on, exactly? How many middle-schoolers are aware that this case has even happened?

It always stuns me that people say these things. This is a shockingly strange situation that most teens hope to never find themselves in - what Judge Brodie has "shown kids" is not going to be relevant to the vast majority of them, and children will process this (if they hear of it at all) and work it into their world view, home life and own circumstances - the way you or I do. It's not telling children they can murder and get away with it - how many children want to murder?! No, it's telling them that, should they find themselves in a situation where they fear for their life, they can do what they need to do to get home to their family that day.

I'm so sorry to know that this time, one didn't make it. But he wasn't defending himself, he was attacking - period.

I'm sorry, family of the deceased kid, I truly am. I'm horrified to read that this has happened, but it seems now that you're just desperately looking for some way to get revenge on a boy that defended himself - and in so doing, you're insulting him and all his peers, insinuating that the judge's decision is going to "damage their fragile little minds." Because they're too stupid to form their own world view and understand the context of the decision despite it being so simple and easy to understand that a brick could get it.

In summary...
11 times is perfectly reasonable.
The use of a weapon was justified, and the kid showed he wanted to avoid using it until he was threatened and afraid for his life.
This does not "show kids it's okay to murder." That's patently absurd.
The boy who defended himself had the weapon on him because he was afraid of being attacked - not because he was "looking for trouble." That's an annoying and very stupid anti-self-defense argument.
He also demonstrated restraint and responsibility with his weapon, showing that youths can be responsible with weaponry and yet use it effectively when need be.

This is a tragedy, as virtually any loss of human life is, but when you follow a smaller person off the bus and punch them in the back of the head, a potentially deadly attack, then continue to assault them when they're just trying to get away... how can you possibly twist things to let you believe that them finally responding, after trying to get away, after trying to defuse the situation, after trying to not be there in the first place... how can you possibly twist that around to being their fault?!

Congratulations Florida, I love the sound of this "Stand Your Ground" law. We need something like it over here.

Oh, and once again, to anybody questioning why this boy had a knife: one, would you ask this of an adult? If no, shut up. The fact that this boy was deemed to be acting in defense of his life should tell you that teenagers can be attacked too, and sometimes need weaponry to defend themselves. Carrying a weapon is prudence, not "looking for trouble" or the mark of a delinquent.*
If you said yes: let me just remind you that telling someone to defend themselves with "just their fists" is macho bullshit posturing on your part. You're pathetic and you don't impress me, or anyone else mature enough to know their own limits and opt to carry a weapon.

Oh, and please stop throwing the names of these kids around. Because of prejudice and ageism, the kid that defended himself is going to have his life made very difficult because he defended himself. I don't need to know their second names and see pictures of them. Jesus Christ... we're all about "protect the kids" until something the media can work itself into a feeding frenzy over, then we plaster pictures of minors all the internet.

* - of course, I carried a knife to school. A pocket knife like the one used in this incident. So, you know, maybe that does mean you're a delinquent if you carry a knife. Even though I never used it because, like, "if you carry a weapon you're looking for trouble" is bullshit.
Viewed: 59 times
Added: 6 years, 9 months ago
 
MaverickSkye
6 years, 9 months ago
Hell, even as a kid, I was tempted to do the same because of people constantly messing with me, trying to start fights and trying to piss me off. Honestly, I'm not surprised he killed him. Despite it not being in his intent, enough rage, and being pushed over the edge...that kinda stuff tends to happen. Especially when you're being attacked and NOT being able to get away. You do what you gotta do. Turning around and stabbing him with the knife ANY amount of times, on ANY spot on his body, is self-defense, plain and simple. By this point, I'm sur ehe was tired of being picked on and brutalized, and yes, he did what any sensible human being would do in his situation. Fists aren't enough. Shouting for help is not enough. When you have the tools to ensure your survival, you use them. Period.

Just like a situation recently, two 'bullies' (home invaders) broke into this woman's house. They were running around and taking stuff, and they had knives on them. This woman had a infant in her arms, and was scared for her and her child's life. No, she was not going to be able to get out of there. What did she do? She took her gun, and she planted a bullet in the chest (Not really sure where, but my point remains), and killed him. And in her interview, did she feel remorse or regret for it? No. Did she wish she didn't have to, yes. But it came down to protecting her life, and the life of her child. She did what she had to do, and she made sure that she got out of the situation alive. They had knives, but she didn't know what the weapon was, she just knew one thing. Survive. And that's exactly what this boy did. In the face of assailants, you don't know how much force they'll use, no idea how far they'll go, and when they'll stop. So you only thing of one thing. Survive.

As sorry as I feel for that family that lost their child, that boy did what he had to do to ensure he stayed alive.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
"When you have the tools to ensure your survival, you use them. Period." - A-motherfucking-men.

"Just like a situation recently, two 'bullies' (home invaders) broke into this woman's house."
I know, I covered that one here. Absolutely fantastic, great work there by the mother. I mean, she was sitting there on the phone, feeding her baby, and calling up 9-1-1 just to be sure it was okay for her to shoot the assholes.

Badass mother... and only 18 too.
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
Ok I know that you think that teenagers shouldnt bring knives and use pepper spray instea but no way in hell am I swapping in my perfectly reliable knife for some spray that may or may not stop the threat. U remember me talkin bout my school right?
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
It's reliable, trust me. The real stuff motherfucking blinds the shit out of you and hurts like hell, cops swear by it. The only downside is that you "retreat" when you use it: you are meant to blind and run, leaving them with a lot of pain. But yeah, they can keep coming if you stand right in front of them.

The knife on the other hand can cause legal problems, is viewed as a "troublemakers weapon" and you have to be close to use it. Bad news if the other guy has a knife too.

Don't get me wrong, I also carry a knife. Not my 6 inch combat knife (uh, kinda hard to conceal and illegal for some bullshit reason), but a little one. But the range and surprise of OC spray is an advantage, and nobody can complain if you use it, unlike the knife.

Sure, carry one, they're super fucking useful and one should always have one, but I wouldn't use it as a first resort.
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
You got to remember at my school a kid got thrown through a mother fucking window. And I'm pretty good with a knife and like I said everyone carries em around. I've always viewed pepper spray as a cowards weapon and as soon as it wears out the guy will come back with vengeance. Scary thought to me. And Its a fairly small knife. Not a switchblade though Im afraid that would go off in my pocket
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
No such thing as a cowards weapon imo. There's what works and what doesn't work, that's all. Do whatcha gotta do to get motherfuckers out of your face.
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
I meant no disrespect towards u I just dont see how that would get rid off the problem. And no I don't mean killing someone
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
It's usually used to blind and run. The pain is very extreme, it's not just like shutting your eyes or a little bit of a sting - only people with training can withstand good peppersprays.

People get sprayed and collapse, screaming and retching, about to throw up. It incapacitates you, and I think that's exactly what aggressive assholes need.

I think of it like a skunk's defense mechanism, you know? Mess with me and you are in for a naaaasty time. >:3
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
I just feel like afterwards the bully would try to maim you. If you step on a snake the next ting that will happen is u will piss it off and end up in the er fighting to survive the attack
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
Maybe much later (takes about 1-2 hours before he'll be able to see again), but that's the same with anything. Unless you, you know, stab him and he dies, he's going to come at you again.

I suppose some of them might be more pissed off that you used OC spray than if you just stood up to them with a knife, but I'm talking about when you absolutely have to stop someone.

Now, I can't legally say "you should still carry your knife to school." But, let me just randomly say: boy, knives are sure damn useful tools. Either way, I hope you never need to use it, or OC spray. Or a gun.

But shit happens.
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
I already carry a knife at all times. Every does. And ive already used a knife on someone but it never touches them it was just so they back off. Which they did. Ever since that one experience at the football game I never leve home with out it
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
Can hardly blame you.
btcat
6 years, 9 months ago
There are days I wonder if, had I had possession of a weapon, would I have done the same?

Good on the judge for recognizing the innocence of the real victim here, who will likely have a lot of therapy to go through now.  Despite his successful defense against the bully, the bully still scores the final blow.

Regarding the deceased's family.  At the risk of throwing away any respect anyone may have for me on this site, I cannot join you in expressing sympathy towards the family of the bully.  My observations on bullying, having been a victim myself, lead me to believe that just as damaging as the lack of action taken by those in power to stop it (ie: school faculty and even cops), is the blind refusal of the parents of the bullies to accept that their children are causing problems.

The common response is, "MY child would NEVER be a bully, so clearly the victim is lying."

The bully, and the parents who did nothing to curb that behavior, brought this death upon themselves.

DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
I havent lost any respect for u but I do disagree. Death is a horrible tragedy and wether or not it's just still does not mean it doesn't take a huge emotional toll on the family. I'm extreamly sympathetic to the family because they lost someone very dear to them and they must be heartbroken and blaming themselves for everything. I honestly feel like the mothe is going o commit suicide as a result of this. I feel extreamly sorry for the kid who was bullied as he probably will be haunted by the fact he took someones life with his own hands
btcat
6 years, 9 months ago
Glad to know I haven't bottomed out then.

Yes death is a horrible thing.  My own experiences have led me to become rather bitter about the whole thing, so that's where I'm coming from.

Your own views are certainly fair, I don't dispute them.
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
Of coarse not. Why would I think any less of you because you have differing opinions. In fact if anything you've gained respect for speaking your mind. and I don't dispute you views but merely disagree.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
It's a shield. People who cannot back their views up with logic sometimes resort to feigning offense.

"Oh, how dare you have a different opinion to me! You think it's GOOD that a boy was killed?!"
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
It's a little revolting to me in two ways. The lack of trust in people respecting other ideas and the close mindedness most people have. I'm not accusing u of anything and ur reaction was perfectly natural but howtwisted is it that we can't speak our beliefs without worrying about criticism and malice. I never understood the logic of trying to win over someones mind by telling them their wrong but not why they are.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
The other thing is, people do calm down after their teen years. I know you might not believe me, but some of the biggest cocks you meet in school really might be decent people in a few years once they get out of the shitty school environment and away from their parents.

As much as I wanted to see some of my schoolmates die and get out of my face, I know that most if not all them should be given the chance to grow up... but if they threatened someone's life, then they run the risk of being killed in self defense. Fuck it, it's not up to the victim defending himself to protect the attacker's health.
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
Oh no I can completely believe it. I may be young but I do feel like I know more about life than whats commonplace for my age. I've seen that happen first hand.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
I believe you, honestly.
DestructiveImpulse
6 years, 9 months ago
Ha ok.
Gobby
6 years, 9 months ago
And ye shall reap what you sow.  The loss of any life is unfortunate, but when you use violence to threaten another, you should expect as much in kind.  I'm sorry for everyone involved.
Kepora
6 years, 9 months ago
Not much to write at the moment, but I've been sucker-punched in the back of the head before too. I was in Junior High, like 7th grade still and a BIG black guy-football player too I think-, Junior or Senior in High School was the one doing the punching. I literally couldn't move for a few moments. I was disoriented for at LEAST an hour. Any lower and he could have broken my neck. With this experience, I APPLAUD this kid for doing what I wasn't brave nore strong enough to do myself.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
Christ above... wow. That's kinda what high school is like for some. I've seen and had that kind of random assault happen to me too.

People think you don't deserve to have a weapon as a kid. Yeah, whatever.
Alfador
6 years, 9 months ago
Yes, I completely agree with you. I wish I'd had better advice on self-defense when I was growing up. The advice I got was "ignore the bullies and they'll get bored and go away. They're just looking for a reaction." Which doesn't exactly help when getting one's head smashed into a brick wall, concussed so badly I had to go home for the day. Kinda hard to ignore that. Oh, and then there was the time I got gut-punched in the lunch line, think it was in second grade, and I got lectured for half the lunch period (or so it seemed) for having the audacity to scream in pain.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
Yeah, those are the things I tried to point out in Tai's Story. I think I was too mild...
mouse24
6 years, 9 months ago
I am very pleasantly surprised with this judge. As a bullying target that fought back, I can honestly say that the faculty of most schools support the bully. Usually its due to a "popular" student with rich parents, or they see the picked on child as different and there for a threat no matter how many verses the one targeted  is.  Heck one day i nearly got expelled for telling some idiot that he wasn't worth my time to deal after threatening to shoot me, in front of several teachers
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
Yeah, that's the rub. Bullies can be popular, manipulative kids, and you get nonsense like this kid's parents: "B'aww, our kid was a good boy, he was never a buuuully!"

Lady, he threatened another boy's life and was killed in self-defense. He was a bullying, violent asshole, get over it.
mouse24
6 years, 9 months ago
I am writing something to effect that is going show alot of the backwards and the friends that helped me fight it. The biggest were i am is the fact that if you not what is considered "god loving christian" its perfectly ok to treat you like your not worth anything and should be legally shot for daring to think on your own
btcat
6 years, 9 months ago
" mouse24 wrote:
Heck one day i nearly got expelled for telling some idiot that he wasn't worth my time to deal after threatening to shoot me, in front of several teachers


THAT'S what I was talking about.  Those in power to stop these things don't.  They punish the victim.

I lost count of the number of times I was sent to detention, or suspended, for fighting back after being pushed into a corner.  Sometimes right in front of a teacher!
mouse24
6 years, 9 months ago
yup, and mostly due to what the believe is being wholesome and good, here its called "the good ol boys" system. If they see you as one them your untochable
Hammerfist
6 years, 9 months ago
I sympathize with the family of the kid who died, but I'm with the judge on this one.  I got jumped by three kids like this in middle school and had to put 2 of them in the hospital before they stopped.  Granted, I didn't have a weapon, but it created similar legal issues.  Unfortunately, my state isn't nearly as understanding as Florida and I got "monitored" until I got out of high school.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
*snerks* So, did you get them on the ground and... HAMMERFIST them until they stopped moving? >:D

That's the problem here, and that's why I respect this judge so much. People's brains shut down whenever you hear it was a KID who defended himself. Oh no, it couldn't REALLY have been such a bad situation he needed to do that! And kids, being violent?! NEVER! Let's make a big media storm out of this!

The thing is, I'm all "youth rights, rawr, rawr, rawr," but my entire point is that we shouldn't be harping on about this. This is nothing. Good on the kid, he defended himself. Leave him the fuck alone, stop making a big deal out of it, and everyone spewing nonsense about how this is setting a bad example needs to shut up. Would you say that if these were adults?

"I say, that judge set a bad example, telling us we can defend ourselves."

Ironically, if this sort of shit wasn't a big deal for no good reason, I wouldn't be so inclined to rant about it and make it a big deal to me too. :P
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
Sorry, I kinda swore far too much in my response there. :S
Hammerfist
6 years, 9 months ago
No problem.  I'm inclined in the same direction for understandable reasons.  And boo on the Hammerfist pun.  I got that nickname for how I played a piano piece by Rachmaninov ironically enough...  Anyway, if you beat the shit out of bullies they tend to leave you alone for some reason.  Nobody ever tried to touch me again.
vulPN
6 years, 9 months ago
This is a tricky situation. On one hand, I empathize with the perp. There's only so much bullying you can take before you snap and beat the shit out of the kid, and I've done that before myself. However, I wasn't carrying a knife when I did it, nor was I carrying any type of spray. No report was ever filed, as far as I know.

I sympathize with the family of the victim, but to be honest, he should get a Darwin Award for bullying a kid so much the kid snapped and killed him.
KichigaiKitsune
6 years, 9 months ago
Was wondering if you'd comment on this. Just reminds me I have all these older comments to respond to (preferably when sober).

I do believe this is a sad situation, but yeah... the "victim" was fifteen. He should've fucking known better. He's not young enough that this sort of behavior (assaulting someone when they get off the bus and forcing them into a fight) can be excused. Darwin Award indeed.
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